Gethin

On his way back to the Blues soon

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2012/11/17/cardiff-blues-set-to-make-shock-swoop-for-unsettled-gethin-jenkins-91466-32249628/

What i dont understand is how Gethin Jenkins, A Grand Slam winner with Wales......cannot get a start in Toulon because of Andrew Sheridan.

I explained that to you last week Maj

majesticimperialman wrote:What i dont understand is how Gethin Jenkins, A Grand Slam winner with Wales......cannot get a start in Toulon because of Andrew Sheridan.

If he doesn't up his game on Saturday he won't get the start for Wales either

He's on the bench offload

majesticimperialman wrote:What i dont understand is how Gethin Jenkins, A Grand Slam winner with Wales......cannot get a start in Toulon because of Andrew Sheridan.

Because Gethin is not a great scrummager. Sheridan is a lot better. If you could breed the two you'd have the ultimate prop. On their own one is good at scrummaging, the other is a prop who is good at defending, tackling, turnovers, link play. The French like scrummaging props, which is probably why they're not playing Gethin much. They should have done some research first really.

RubyGuby wrote:He's on the bench offload

Although this is another non story I feel. The story starts by saying that the Blues are 'poised to make a bid', then it says they 'could be ready to offer him...'. So nothing about actually offering him a contract yet at all. Just an idea???

Griff wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:What i dont understand is how Gethin Jenkins, A Grand Slam winner with Wales......cannot get a start in Toulon because of Andrew Sheridan.

Because Gethin is not a great scrummager. Sheridan is a lot better. If you could breed the two you'd have the ultimate prop. On their own one is good at scrummaging, the other is a prop who is good at defending, tackling, turnovers, link play. The French like scrummaging props, which is probably why they're not playing Gethin much. They should have done some research first really.

Griff,
Sheridan may be a better scrummager, but with his record for Wales and the Lions I don't thing Jenkins is a mug in that department.

He looked a shadow of the player he was on the weekend. Perhaps it's lack of game time... But personally I think he's been spending too much time enjoying the French cuisine.... He's not match fit pure and simple.

Not surprised Sheridan is in in front of him. The French love a big scrum and are the worlds best at it, perhaps this is why their backs can be so free to be creative... They very rarely are on the Blackfoot.

No mug, definitely. But he's only stable at best, not destructive. And I've seen him go backwards plenty of times. Not the sort of the thing the French like. If Toulon are the richest club in Europe then they're going to buy the best scrummaging prop that they can, which is why IMO they are not starting Gethin.

What's your theory on it Offload?

Thing is Toulon can afford to have both a great scrummager (Sheridan) and a more all-round prop (Jenkins) on the bench for the last 20 mins.

Not bad options.

If that doesn't work they can just draft in some more.

Griff wrote:No mug, definitely. But he's only stable at best, not destructive. And I've seen him go backwards plenty of times. Not the sort of the thing the French like. If Toulon are the richest club in Europe then they're going to buy the best scrummaging prop that they can, which is why IMO they are not starting Gethin.

What's your theory on it Offload?

Can't argue with that Griff. He would cut it as first choice at many top clubs but not at a French club with deep pockets. I just hope the AB's bring the best out of him ( assuming he gets on) as I love to see him trying to be a flanker!

I thought Sheridan was a Poopie scrummage? I'm pretty sure one group of posters on here would say that over and over. Can't remember where they were from at the moment. Although what does that say about Jenkins if Sheridan is better than him?

HammerofThunor wrote:I thought Sheridan was a Poopie scrummage? I'm pretty sure one group of posters on here would say that over and over. Can't remember where they were from at the moment. Although what does that say about Jenkins if Sheridan is better than him?

I don't know what it says Hammer, enlighten us. Do you have any original thought or did you just decide to have a pop at one of the most prominent Welsh and Lions props of his generation?

To be honest mate, being the most prominent prop from the last 2 tours when our front five have been beaten up each time is nothing really to be that proud of. Not slamming him mind, always stood his ground although would have liked to have seen more of him on tour to be honest.

Sheridan is the man most in the SH know about though... Given the treatment he's passed out to a number of their teams over the years. Scrum time is where props earn their legend.... Not standing out on the wing waiting to score.

Andrew Sheridan is an exceptional scrummager now. When he started off he relied too much on brute strength and ignorance which meant a good technical prop would give him a world of trouble. He is a converted backrower though so it took time to learn the nuances of the scrum. He learnt it at the coal face and subsequently developed some sound technique to go with his obvious physical attributes. For a very tall guy, he gets his backside low enough, gets a good left shoulder and if he gets his bind quickly, which is key for any prop, he will have you under pressure once that immense weight and power comes through his legs. He is one of the best props I have ever seen at attacking the opposition hooker. It is quite often borderline boring in, but he gets his left shoulder round and scrums up and in to the hookers right shoulder. If the TH is anywhere remotely out of alignment, the hooker is going up or across and Sheridan has done his job by either disrupting clean ball or straight out disintergrating the opposition scrum which he has done fairly consistently over recent years. You only have to look at the last Lions tour. I know front rows are a unit, but if you isolate the different one on one battles, Jenkins never really got the nudge on Smit, a converted hooker who was a poor scrummager at prop, but in the third test, Sheridan had him on rollerskates from the very first engage. Sheridan is also the only person I have seen give Nicolas Mas consistent problems over the years. Mas is a fine tighthead but, for whatever reason, Sheridan has had the nudge on him more often than not.

Who is the better, more rounded and talented rugby player? Jenkins, by miles. Who is the better scrummager? Sheridan by the same distance.

Not looking for an argument here, but Jenkins has achieved far more than Sheridan, who has failed to impress in and out if the scrum and has rarely lived up to the hype. Driving a truly awful Aussie scrum into the ground is his notable exception.

England should stick with Corbisiero who could be twice the prop Sheridan might have been.

offload wrote:Not looking for an argument here, but Jenkins has achieved far more than Sheridan, who has failed to impress in and out if the scrum and has rarely lived up to the hype. Driving a truly awful Aussie scrum into the ground is his notable exception.

England should stick with Corbisiero who could be twice the prop Sheridan might have been.

No argument here, I agree that Jenkins has far more to his game than Sheridan but I can't agree that he has failed to impress in the scrum over recent years, injury permitting.

He can't be judged against destroying the Aussie front row everytime he packs down. That was a pretty unusual capitulation by an international front row and doesn't happen that often if you count all the scrums in all the internationals played in a year. That was his benchmark, but it's a ridiculously high bar to set. He can't be expected to crunch front rows like that at international level on a regular basis.

He singlehandedly pulled the English scrum through the world cup in France '07, giving the Aussies, France and South Africa all kinds of trouble.

[/quote]He singlehandedly pulled the English scrum through the world cup in France '07, giving the Aussies, France and South Africa all kinds of trouble.[/quote]

Agree with that

The French prefer the brute force of a natural scrummager who can destry scrums, Jenkins has never been a destructive scrummager but his all round workrate in the past has been phenomenal for a prop.

Well Sheridan did earn a man of the match award in a world cup quarter final...not many props achieve man of the match awards

offload wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I thought Sheridan was a Poopie scrummage? I'm pretty sure one group of posters on here would say that over and over. Can't remember where they were from at the moment. Although what does that say about Jenkins if Sheridan is better than him?

I don't know what it says Hammer, enlighten us. Do you have any original thought or did you just decide to have a pop at one of the most prominent Welsh and Lions props of his generation?

Where was the pop at Jenkins? we have years of Welsh fans saying how Poopie Sheridan was over and over and over again. I'm saying if he really was that Poopie then Jenkins can't be great if he can't get ahead of him. What I'm saying is Sheridan ISN'T that Poopie as Jenkins is a very good player. If I was having a pop at anyone it's all those Welsh WUM over the years.

Words can always be twisted, I think most genuine rugby fans would recogniise and admit that Sheridan was a top notch scrummager but that he grought little else to the table.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Words can always be twisted, I think most genuine rugby fans would recogniise and admit that Sheridan was a top notch scrummager but that he grought little else to the table.

I also thought he was a poor scrummager who could use his power against tightheads with poor technique of their own (Australians until Baxter learnt how to scrum). He would carry well and tackled well. That was about it.

Haamer,

I thought he carried very little especially for a guy of his size

bedfordwelsh wrote:Haamer,

I thought he carried very little especially for a guy of his size

Me too, he didn't do enough in that regard. Despite his size, I have always thought he lacked a bit of 'dog' and was too nice a guy. His big carries were few and far between.

But, to say he was a "poor scrummager who could use his power against tightheads with poor technique of their own" is miles from the truth. That could be pinned against his very early years at prop, but he developed into a fine operator at the scrum and now has a pretty good and traditional technique to go with his brute strength.

It is not only TH's with poor technique he has given trouble too, on his day, he could give the best TH's in world rugby a whole world of pain.

I don't rate Sheridans scummaging - although I have not seen him for a few years but IMO living of the aus game and getting away with boring in. Plenty of decent props have nullified him especially if the refs stop him boring in. Maybe he has developed in recent years but I bet international props would still catch him out. Must be doing something right to keep Sheridan out but does that just prove he is a good club player?

People seemed to think he should be charging strraight through everyone. But teams just double tackled him and he went down. Unless it was quick ball off the back of a ruck and then he could make good ground. Unfortuanely with England the ball was almost always slow and he was well tackled. We didn't use the fact he drew defenders to make space elsewhere. Remember Sheridan played for England during one of worst period in ages. Especially regarding quick ball and smart play.

He was a decent international player that filled a gap, had a couple of massive scrummaging games, always against Australia, and the media jumped on the band wagon. No-one is as good as they're hyped (that's pretty much the definition of hyped isn't it? Over-done?).

But he was always good enough that if was used correctly he would do very well (as in Toulon now).

Jenkins was/s excellent in the ruck and tackling. But most newish props are just as good in the ruck these days and are expected to put in covering tackles (my favourite was Mullen on Hook in the Anglo-Welsh a few years ago). Jenkins was very much was the template for the modern loosehead (at least in the NH).

IMO

Mind the Windows Tino, he had a massive problem with keeping his bind (at least at International level). This was at least partly due to tightheads binding on his arm (which seems to get let go more often than not). But I have definately seen him have more off days at the scrum that good ones. Maybe I'm just watching the wrong games.

[quote="HammerofThunor"] Jenkins was very much was the template for the modern loosehead (at least in the NH).

I would agree with that Hammer but now he has lost form etc and not getting game time I am glad James has been picked ahead of him as he is the more technical scrummager

HammerofThunor wrote:

Mind the Windows Tino, he had a massive problem with keeping his bind (at least at International level). This was at least partly due to tightheads binding on his arm (which seems to get let go more often than not). But I have definately seen him have more off days at the scrum that good ones. Maybe I'm just watching the wrong games.

No bother mate, if that's how you see it, that's how you see it. It is not how I have seen him scrum, particularly over recent years. In my original post further up the page, I did allude to the binding issue. The way I have seen it, if he got his bind quickly, he was a formidable prospect. Sometimes he is going to miss the bind, especially with the ferocity of the hit these days, but he has improved immeasurably at that over the years.

TH's always try and bind on the arm if they can get away with it, and LH's will try and bore in on the hooker. That, death and taxes are the only sure things in life!

Refs need to give props a chance to get a decent bind, both Wales and England were penalised needlessley IMO.

RubyGuby wrote:Refs need to give props a chance to get a decent bind, both Wales and England were penalised needlessley IMO.

Make them wear proper shirts, that would be a good start! Why do props need skin tight shirts anyway? It can't be for streamlining them as they streak past the opposition winger!

Put handles on them, my wife has them

RubyGuby wrote:Put handles on them, my wife has them

So long as she doesn't look like Andrew Sheridan, mate.

It could be worse though, she could be a hooker.

I'll get my skintight shirt and leave.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Put handles on them, my wife has them

So long as she doesn't look like Andrew Sheridan, mate.

It could be worse though, she could be a hooker.

I'll get my skintight shirt and leave.

My shirts are actually skin tight, it's just that they are not meant to be.

I always considered Sheridan a terrific scrummager. Good at the breakdown and a good tackler.

Unfortunately, no one was ever successful teaching him how to run. He was good at a short pick and go into the defense, but never in the open field. Probably a bit too muscle bound to run properly. And too heavy. I'd guess the extera weight contributed to some of his injuries.

I saw him play one match this season on tv and he played terrific.

Gethin needs game time to get back to playing like he can. I think it would be a good move to go back to Cardiff.

doctor_grey wrote:

I saw him play one match this season on tv and he played terrific.

As a faded ex-hooker, I can only imagine how easy the Toulon number 2 has it hanging between Sheridan and Hayman. Talk about an easy ride at scrum time!

I remember a great scrum tussle between Sheridan and Duncan Bell when Sale played Bath at the Rec. It was probably a score draw between them, but I remember the crowd drawing breath at the hits at the scrum engagement - frightening.