Andrew Hore attack on Bradley Davies

First topic message reminder :

It was off the ball, from behind and completely unprovoked.

How long should Andrew Hore be getting for this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgqpVdu3KK0
&
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QN8o_t0Vylo

(Ignore the fact that it says Aaron Jarvis in the second link)

What are you going on about Auck? That was a bad one and he will get some weeks for it as he should. The rest of the game is for another thread.

Biltong wrote:Sounds about fair Peter, we'll send our one peace keeper, you send your four peace keepers and we'll have a fair duel.

Now that you come to mention it, that does sound pretty fair to me!

I saw the Launchberry/Etzebeth handbags coming from a country mile away. 2 very physical young locks out to prove themselves, that was obviously going to explode at some point ... wasn't expecting a full bail in from both sides though

aucklandlaurie wrote:


Simple, I dont think it was any where near as bad as you do, No he shouldnt have hit him that hard and run the risk of being sent off, and compromising the position of his team, But you really cant look me straight in the keyboard and tell me that he hit him "that" hard surely.

Laurie mate, Davies is a fair lump of a lad and can take a few knocks but Hore had him knocked out before he hit the ground so yes, Hore did hit him that hard. Also hard enough for him to be hospitalised...

Fair enough Billy I shouldnt have raised any other aspects of the game. I apologise.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
I think Hore will get 18 months

1 month for the swinging arm.
1 month for being so utterly dumb.
& 16 months which the IRB will have to impose to appease the stupid British rugby press.

+1. Stupid British Rugby press hamstring us more than any flying arm bar, chicken winging, spear tackling could ever do

nganboy wrote:What are you going on about Auck? That was a bad one and he will get some weeks for it as he should. The rest of the game is for another thread.

I was over on the other site and they were talking about the Hore incident too.

for god sake this is rugby it goes on, its just a shame that nowadays teams have to use the citing commisioner in order to sort these thing out.

In the past the forwards would have been brought together and hore would have been in for a good shoeing at the bottom of the next ruck

Carter tried to rip a Welsh head off last time too, he only got a week when it should have been a red and a penalty try.

Why on Earth would the British press want to sabotage NZ rugby? where would our next generation of players come from?

Who's Andy Powell?

I'm disappointed with Hore, it was reckless and looked dirty and cynical. Couldn't wade through all the posts here but I'd be surprised if any kiwi was defending his actions with any zeal.

It should have been red, but he'll now most definitely pick up a suspension. At the very least, after watching the replay he should have been penalised for diving into the ruck!

I'm not going to compare his actions to anyone else's. You don't clear out rucks by swinging your arm around the neck of a lock who was facing the other way, I was taught to clear out at the centre of gravity - even that would have looked bad on a retreating player. The only thing Davies was guilty of was being a lazy runner, he didn't deserve to get knocked out

chewed_mintie wrote:I'm disappointed with Hore, it was reckless and looked dirty and cynical. Couldn't wade through all the posts here but I'd be surprised if any kiwi was defending his actions with any zeal.

It should have been red, but he'll now most definitely pick up a suspension. At the very least, after watching the replay he should have been penalised for diving into the ruck!

I'm not going to compare his actions to anyone else's. You don't clear out rucks by swinging your arm around the neck of a lock who was facing the other way, I was taught to clear out at the centre of gravity - even that would have looked bad on a retreating player. The only thing Davies was guilty of was being a lazy runner, he didn't deserve to get knocked out

Then put your most surprised face on!

Well I think two have downplayed or dismissed it. Like a Stephen Jones article, i don't think that's a representation of an entire country though.

Hore's foul was far worse than Thomson's but both were stupid and don't belong on a rugby field. If the players complain about the rough treatment McCaw gets, then foul play like this does their argument no good whatsoever. I certainly hope Hansen lays down the law to his players and gets them playing aggressively but within the laws next week against England. We need a clean sheet. I'm getting sick of these half time analyses where the commentators pick out the ugly of NZ play and use it to imply that the teams are not playing on equal terms. i think the Welsh scrum and ruck area deserved a few replays of their own. It happens on both sides.

So throw the book at Hore. I'd really like to see that happen and an example be made of him.

rainbow-warrior wrote:Carter tried to rip a Welsh head off last time too, he only got a week when it should have been a red and a penalty try.

The thing that disturbs me is that this kind of poetic language is inspired by the ferver generated during the coverage.

To suggest he literally tried to rip someone's head off is absurd, but this language is used again and again on the coverage, and we have one hundred replays in slow motion and then "respectable" pundits sitting around regurgitating ridiculous notions such as "The all blacks have a dark side" and "South Africans are notorious thugs" and "Burger is no more than a common criminal" and these phrases are implanted in the minds of the masses and then they go from hyperbole to truth through some process of osmosis.

Look at the semi-final Warburton incident where the assembled pundits accused the referee of having "ruined the game" and being biased because he has French ancestry. Then later it transpired to concensus that the referee was right and the pundits wrong. In the mean time, they'd been on a crusade.

It bothers me. People need to think as individuals and assess everything, not just the things that are sign posted for them. Then check the sign posts and check that things are correctly labelled.

There is a reason that large companies spend billions of pounds creating TV advertisements trying to convince you need to buy their products. And the opinions of "experts" during sports matches works in exactly the same way.

anotherworldofpain wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote:Carter tried to rip a Welsh head off last time too, he only got a week when it should have been a red and a penalty try.

The thing that disturbs me is that this kind of poetic language is inspired by the ferver generated during the coverage.

To suggest he literally tried to rip someone's head off is absurd, but this language is used again and again on the coverage, and we have one hundred replays in slow motion and then "respectable" pundits sitting around regurgitating ridiculous notions such as "The all blacks have a dark side" and "South Africans are notorious thugs" and "Burger is no more than a common criminal" and these phrases are implanted in the minds of the masses and then they go from hyperbole to truth through some process of osmosis.

Look at the semi-final Warburton incident where the assembled pundits accused the referee of having "ruined the game" and being biased because he has French ancestry. Then later it transpired to concensus that the referee was right and the pundits wrong. In the mean time, they'd been on a crusade.

It bothers me. People need to think as individuals and assess everything, not just the things that are sign posted for them. Then check the sign posts and check that things are correctly labelled.

There is a reason that large companies spend billions of pounds creating TV advertisements trying to convince you need to buy their products. And the opinions of "experts" during sports matches works in exactly the same way.

Comments from Inverdale were, as usual, pathetic and cringe-inducing. To his credit Guscott (i know!) brushed them off. Zinzan studiously refused to be drawn into it. Eddie Butler then said something like 'their victories always leave a sour taste' - yes, because they're always against our teams you dimwit.

Hore should have been sent off, New Zealand should have found themselves playing with a man down and up against it (possibly). I don't think the ABs are necessarily dirtier than anyone else, but stuff like that makes it very easy for people like Inverdale to pipe up. Don't knock someone out from behind and save us all Inverdale's bleating please!

If you think that Andrew Hore's haymaker punch on Bradley Davies was bad and deserved an immediate sending-off, you guys should check out on youtube an off-the ball incident which happened back in 1986 during the New Zealand Cavaliers rebel tour of South Africa when the NZ hooker Andy Dalton got totally laid out by a haymaker punch from the South African forward Burger Geldenhuys. The punch which hit Dalton from behind broke Dalton's jaw and looked like a bigger swing of the arm than the one which hit Bradley Davies yesterday.

gboycottnut wrote:If you think that Andrew Hore's haymaker punch on Bradley Davies was bad and deserved an immediate sending-off, you guys should check out on youtube an off-the ball incident which happened back in 1986 during the New Zealand Cavaliers rebel tour of South Africa when the NZ hooker Andy Dalton got totally laid out by a haymaker punch from the South African forward Burger Geldenhuys. The punch which hit Dalton from behind broke Dalton's jaw and looked like a bigger swing of the arm than the one which hit Bradley Davies yesterday.

Sounds equally pathetic, cowardly, thuggish, pointless and against what the game stands for.

maestegmafia wrote:

gboycottnut wrote:If you think that Andrew Hore's haymaker punch on Bradley Davies was bad and deserved an immediate sending-off, you guys should check out on youtube an off-the ball incident which happened back in 1986 during the New Zealand Cavaliers rebel tour of South Africa when the NZ hooker Andy Dalton got totally laid out by a haymaker punch from the South African forward Burger Geldenhuys. The punch which hit Dalton from behind broke Dalton's jaw and looked like a bigger swing of the arm than the one which hit Bradley Davies yesterday.

Sounds equally pathetic, cowardly, thuggish, pointless and against what the game stands for.

Well it was a worse punch that Dalton got when compared to the one that Davies received yesterday. Anyway doesn't Andrew Hore with that gray moustache facially look like the former NZ prop Richard Loe? Loe himself apparently was famous for punching and breaking the nose of the Australian winger Paul Carozza during a 1991/1992 Bledisloe Cup match.

Big wrote:I'm interested to know how a player can be accused of lazy running before the tackled player has gone to ground, i.e. before the ruck is formed, i.e. before they are even offside. I assume that's a bit like an American defence mission.

Hore should be out for a while. The last time I can recall anyone punching from behind was Moody. He was out for 9 weeks, it was several punches but unlike this it really was in retaliation. Academic though really as whether it's a 1 week or 2 month ban I assume he's still only going to miss one game.

For those interested in seeing what lazy running is all about just watch McCaw - the master of it and far more deserving of getting a smack in the head than Davies.

littlejohn wrote:

Big wrote:I'm interested to know how a player can be accused of lazy running before the tackled player has gone to ground, i.e. before the ruck is formed, i.e. before they are even offside. I assume that's a bit like an American defence mission.

Hore should be out for a while. The last time I can recall anyone punching from behind was Moody. He was out for 9 weeks, it was several punches but unlike this it really was in retaliation. Academic though really as whether it's a 1 week or 2 month ban I assume he's still only going to miss one game.

For those interested in seeing what lazy running is all about just watch McCaw - the master of it and far more deserving of getting a smack in the head than Davies.

There's no need for that lj. But if if every player deserved to be knocked out for 'lazy running'*, there wouldn't be a Kiwi or Aus player left to contest a game.




* Quite how Davies was expected to outrun a ball kicked over his head is beyond me.

What seems to be largely ignored here is the complete incompetence of the officials.

Within 90 seconds NZ should have been down to 14 men and then we have a completely different match in our hands, Instead we lose a second row with no bench cover. A coincidence? I don't think so. NZ have shown in the past with the cynical targeting of BOD that they will do anything, indulge in any act of foul play no matter how cowardly to ensure victory.

I rarely want to see an England side win but I wish them good luck next Saturday I for one have had a guts full of the endless cheating at every possible opportunity by successive NZ sides going all the way back the famous Hayden Salmon impression in 78. For Gods sake they apparently practice lazy running and obstruction of opposition players at the breakdown in training.

Come on England

If he gets banned for say 12 weeks does this start from his next competitive match or does it start straight away... If so it's pointless as the SR season starts in 11 weeks time.

Surely it has to be a match ban.

Yeah never understood this week ban situation, apart from that I believe it must be like for like, if a player transgresses in test rugby, the ban must extend to test rugby only.

I agree - a ban should be for a certain number of games

For the record. I'm currently living in NZ, Most kiwis here (the vast majority) deplore the of the ball tackle Hore made. Unless something comes to light (unlikely) we're expecting a sizable ban.

blackcanelion wrote:For the record. I'm currently living in NZ, Most kiwis here (the vast majority) deplore the of the ball tackle Hore made. Unless something comes to light (unlikely) we're expecting a sizable ban.

Most welsh fans are aware of that Black

fa0019 wrote:If he gets banned for say 12 weeks does this start from his next competitive match or does it start straight away... If so it's pointless as the SR season starts in 11 weeks time.

Surely it has to be a match ban.

That's a good point. Otherwise, some players can believe they can do what they like since they are in the last game of the season.

Biltong wrote:Yeah never understood this week ban situation, apart from that I believe it must be like for like, if a player transgresses in test rugby, the ban must extend to test rugby only.

I disagree mostly. When we are talking about short bans I see the sense (after all whatever Hore gets it will effectively be a 1 match ban) - but once you get to a longer ban it would be crazy to only be banned from one form only.

Why should a player banned from club rugby ever be allowed to play international?

Why should a player banned for serious foul play incurred in an international be allowed to play club rugby? Take Dylan Hartley last season, banned for biting Stephen Ferris. It would have been crazy for him to be allowed to play for Northampton but not for England. Yes it may be deemed unfair on the club - but the player transgressed. Looking at it the other way, how ridiculous would it have been for Calum Clark to be banned from club rugby yet allowed to go on englands summer tour?

doctor_grey wrote:

fa0019 wrote:If he gets banned for say 12 weeks does this start from his next competitive match or does it start straight away... If so it's pointless as the SR season starts in 11 weeks time.

Surely it has to be a match ban.

That's a good point. Otherwise, some players can believe they can do what they like since they are in the last game of the season.

David Paice and Jim Hamilton were both banned for fighting in the last match of the AP season. Hamiltons ban started immediately meaning he missed the Summer tour with Scotland, while Paice's started with LIs first pre-season match.

LondonTiger wrote:

Biltong wrote:Yeah never understood this week ban situation, apart from that I believe it must be like for like, if a player transgresses in test rugby, the ban must extend to test rugby only.

I disagree mostly. When we are talking about short bans I see the sense (after all whatever Hore gets it will effectively be a 1 match ban) - but once you get to a longer ban it would be crazy to only be banned from one form only.

Why should a player banned from club rugby ever be allowed to play international?

Why should a player banned for serious foul play incurred in an international be allowed to play club rugby? Take Dylan Hartley last season, banned for biting Stephen Ferris. It would have been crazy for him to be allowed to play for Northampton but not for England. Yes it may be deemed unfair on the club - but the player transgressed. Looking at it the other way, how ridiculous would it have been for Calum Clark to be banned from club rugby yet allowed to go on englands summer tour?

Quite right it wouldve been ridiculous to pick him, hes terrible.


Joking aside any systme has its probblems. How fair is it that a Jaopanese player who gets a 6 game international ban ends up having two years off whereas a Welshman would get to miss the Baabass game, the annual summer thrashing and the first AI...whilst atthe same time playing for their club.


One good thing about the current systme is that it bans players from all rugby. Rabeni got his ban extended for playing in a charity friendly, even though it wanst an IRB sanctioned game. During the summer you may not be missing "professional" games but you are still banned and missing out, yes not as harsh as picking up a ban in the week before a world cup but it does still have an effect.

Clubs too of course can take more resposnibility for their own players conduct. Going all Protnoy I could point back to the Tigers ethic of let us deal with it as we see fit. A club or countries repuation is reflected by the behaviour of its player san dhow it reacts to that ( oh hi Northampton, defending Clarke still?) ...that been increaisngly pushed out of the game by relianc eon a Holly Wilaboobie for tat citeing system.


Amongst all this outrage its also worth remebering that once upon a time we didnt have citings, kangaroo courts and bans. Like cards rugby managed to survive manay years just dealing with it. Of ocurse we also used to eat our own children and poo in holes in the ground ( like the french) so yknow progress isnt always that bad. But Im asure I had a point.

sometimes you have to love auto filters for bad words

Holly Wilaboobie for tat indeed

almsot as good as the american fundemental christin paper that kept referring to Tyson Homosexual.

Stereotypes in rugby are interesting....always had the AB's down as playing to the limit of the offside laws, the little indescretions on the floor....'playinh to the ref' if you like but never as an actual dirty team. There's no doubt whatsoever though that this is a dirty act. And perhaps more importantly, incredibly stupid! How any player could think that such an offence could be carried out scott free in this day and age? There i think lies the crux.....this was an un-thinking act in every sense. Just plain dumb. Dumb and dangerous - not a good life quality!

Hore has officially been cited.

And well done to SportingLife for getting the obvious pun into the title of their article. http://www.sportinglife.com/rugby-union/news/article/504/8282449/kiwi-hore-is-cited

Is that the same one that Ojo and Brown got in trouble with on the 2008 tour?

You think they would at least change it to "kiwi hooker" to avoid confussion

don't care for Davies past stuff, or for the fact that he was slowly getting onside (not THAT slowly).

That is nothing more than a cheap shot which deserves a ban.

the problem is, the result of that cheap shot seriously damaged the player.

NZ would fix a lot of problems and stand themselves in good stead by kicking this thug out

Yeah meanhile England still employ Callum Clarke. Let he without sin....

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Yeah meanhile England still employ Callum Clarke. Let he without sin....

right where is that stone

LondonTiger wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Yeah meanhile England still employ Callum Clarke. Let he without sin....

right where is that stone

Its getting cast at his head next time he steps in Welford Road! (the Manu vs Ashton smiley)

Got to love the careful wordings in SportLife..

"for allegedly striking Wales lock Bradley Davies .."
"laid out by what appeared to be a punch.."
"allegedly striking an opponent.."
" It looks like he (Davies) has been caught from behind.."

Heck, to me there was no alleged about it, and it most certainly more than appeared to be a punch from behind.

But I guess they have to be careful in case the commision finds him not guilty?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6xxo75RkCw

This incident was particularly bad because it happened in the first minute. Some games are fiery, and nasty exchanges and incidents can lead to punches being thown later in the game (not saying a punch is excusable, but sometimes there can be room for provocation). There was no provocation to this incident as the game had just started.

Hore should get off entirely I'm told......
AWWOP will be counsel for the defence ( ) and will present the cast iron case supporting Hore's actions in 'clearing out' Davies the offside straggler.
Not guilty m'lud, case dismissed

gregortree wrote:Hore should get off entirely I'm told......
AWWOP will be counsel for the defence ( ) and will present the cast iron case supporting Hore's actions in 'clearing out' Davies the offside straggler.
Not guilty m'lud, case dismissed

Opening statement:

On this subject I have been thinking much. It would to me appear that the gentleman honourable in black was, how you say, a waving to his mama. The horrible man Bradley Davies, a man we have been seeing performing the tip-tackle most foul, was preventing this familial conviviality. I am putting it to you, that this Bradley Davies man, is not a nice man. He is a man most horrid. He is a man who should be banned for life.

What seems to be largely ignored here is the complete incompetence of the officials.

Merci
Hercule 'Tigre ' Poirot

littlejohn wrote:For those interested in seeing what lazy running is all about just watch McCaw - the master of it and far more deserving of getting a smack in the head than Davies.

Indeed, and a prime example was McCaw's cheeky block on Gethin Jenkins for their lineout try at the end of the first half. The block didn't effect the game, or Gethin's (in)ability to get to Woodcock, but it was very blatant, and intentional, unlike Bradley's.

That's part of the game, and you have to smash someone who is blocking illegally to try and make sure they do it less. McCaw did not 'deserve' a punch, no one on a rugby field does.

littlejohn wrote:For those interested in seeing what lazy running is all about just watch McCaw - the master of it

agreed.

littlejohn wrote: and far more deserving of getting a smack in the head than Davies.

completely and utterly disagree. No-one deserves a cheap shot as given out by Hore.

Block is a bit rich. Not to mention that everyone in the rugby world has seen that lineout move done before on the biggest stage of all. Wales have only themselves to blame for not doing their homework on it.

miaow wrote:

littlejohn wrote:For those interested in seeing what lazy running is all about just watch McCaw - the master of it and far more deserving of getting a smack in the head than Davies.

Indeed, and a prime example was McCaw's cheeky block on Gethin Jenkins for their lineout try at the end of the first half. The block didn't effect the game, or Gethin's (in)ability to get to Woodcock, but it was very blatant, and intentional, unlike Bradley's.

That's part of the game, and you have to smash someone who is blocking illegally to try and make sure they do it less. McCaw did not 'deserve' a punch, no one on a rugby field does.

Not sure if you have seen the wide angle shot from above of the build up to the incident? I think it was on ScrumV.

Davies was doing his level best to get in the way of the Hooker as happens in every game. It was intentional but perhaps not so blatant unless you look for it.

That in no way, shape or form excuses what Hore did! It was terrible, stupid, dangerous, illegal.....and should be severely dealt with.

I was merely pointing out that Davies was trying to block.