Andrew Hore attack on Bradley Davies

First topic message reminder :

It was off the ball, from behind and completely unprovoked.

How long should Andrew Hore be getting for this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgqpVdu3KK0
&
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QN8o_t0Vylo

(Ignore the fact that it says Aaron Jarvis in the second link)

Oh come on who doesn't try and block in rugby. It's well known that it is an All Black tactic. Absolutely no idea why Davies is getting singled out, and some instances why the ABs are getting singled out for foul play.

Yes, fair enough, I hadn't actually seen the wide angle until I watched the clip on bbc. So it's exactly the same situation then, and Hore's response was reprehensible; neither McCaw nor Bradley's 'blocking' affected the players (Jenkins and Hore respectively) getting to the play.

disneychilly, how is block not the right way to decribe it? That it was the exact same move that NZ used in the WC final does say a lot about the Welsh coaching priorities, rigidly sticking to trying to score a 13 man lineout at the expense of penalty kicks. And not reviewing nor preparing for probable or possible NZ attacks off set piece.

.....filthy Hore...

To be fair on the 13 man thing...if Preistland couldnt find touch what makes peopel think the 3 points were likely?

And if it had come off first time...youd all be hailing Gatland a genius after a gusty Welsh loss where they ran the All Blacks ragged and made them try.

It might have been useless in the long term development of the side, but he did go out to win the game rather than avoid losing to badly.

Even if Davies was trying to block, so what. It is nothing most teams including the ABs dont do constantly themselves. Hore knocked Davies out. should have been a red card. Hopefully he will miss at least a few matches.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:To be fair on the 13 man thing...if Preistland couldnt find touch what makes peopel think the 3 points were likely?

And if it had come off first time...youd all be hailing Gatland a genius after a gusty Welsh loss where they ran the All Blacks ragged and made them try.

It might have been useless in the long term development of the side, but he did go out to win the game rather than avoid losing to badly.

Because Halfpenny, despite his two near misses, the much better goalkicker, would have been kicking the place kicks.

It may well have come off first time. But you have a tactic, the 13 man lineout, that's great; why do you need to perform it in the first minute? NZ had a tactic from a lineout, one they had already performed successfully in the WC, and they implemented it in the 38th minute. When they had already taken 3 kickable opportunities, gaining a 9 point lead, which was then extended to 16. What is the difference between scoring this try in the 1st minute and the 20th? Or the 36th? Or the 54th? It's still 5 points, and if Gatland thought that by scoring a try through a rarely seen tactic in the first five minutes would shock the Kiwis and pave the way for a defensive, grind it out victory, then he is a worse tactician than I thought. 5 points is 5 points, and if it comes in the 2nd minute or the 62nd minute, it shouldn't matter, as long as, by the 62nd minute, you are still in the game...which, because of not taking their kickable penalty opportunities and rubbish open play kicking, Wales were not.

I'd say any coach in the top 10 nations, regardless of NZ's superiority, always believe and tells their players they can win the game, rather than avoid a heavy defeat, so that's a moot point. I, along with every other Welsh fan, would rather have seen us take that potential 6 point lead in the first 6 minutes, then, when we had the ball in the middle of the pitch, actually try and run hard with it, rather than kicking it back to the NZ back 3 and letting them set up their tries.

I think part of the uproar is the fact that Hore will certainly not get whats coming to him, and in no way will Wales benefit from justice of which they wouldve hugely had it not been missed by Mr ALLBLACK himself Joubert!

Hore will miss next week, even if his ban is 3 months he'll be back for next seasons start, and Wales will watch from 9th place.

miaow

I see what your saying but a try in under 5 min utes at home to a packed MS where the crowd play an important part???

The optimism of turning the 3 down alone picked the crowd up, if we had gone over the line early, well scoring a 5 minute try 4 minutes after a red card wouldve made one hell of a difference (I know Gatland wasnt expecting a red) but momentum is huge in international rugby, Scotland and wales were able to capitolise after momentum swung their way in the 2nd half, if that had happened in the 5th minute instead of the 55th...

Guys,


It happens all the time in both International and Club rugby when a ban can actually harm the side against whom the foul play was perpetrated. T'was ever thus.

I understand the frustration. The problem is that few of you seemed to feel that way in the 6 Nations last year.

thebluesmancometh wrote:I think part of the uproar is the fact that Hore will certainly not get whats coming to him, and in no way will Wales benefit from justice

No but England may benefit from the justice

MrsP wrote:Guys,


It happens all the time in both International and Club rugby when a ban can actually harm the side against whom the foul play was perpetrated. T'was ever thus.

I understand the frustration. The problem is that few of you seemed to feel that way in the 6 Nations last year.

Davies was banned after having a yellow card (which is more than Hore received), he was out of the whole 6N if I remember correctly.

I'm not saying its right but it happens on most rugby pitches every weekend.

Cheap shots are part of the game, if you have played it then you would know that.

Unfortunatly for Wales Hore caught him too well and the Refs missed it.

You do remember correctly (I think).

My point was that Ireland did not benefit from him missing games against the other nations nor did we get to play the rest of the game against 14 men. In the same way Wales will not benefit from Hore's ban.

Like all of us you only really think about how unfair it is when it effects you.

I don't see why Davies' incident in the 6 Nations is still being brought up. Our point is that nobody Welsh or English defended it at the time. We all condemned it. Unlike now, where some Kiwi's and English are defending Hore's strike.

MrsP wrote:You do remember correctly (I think).

My point was that Ireland did not benefit from him missing games against the other nations nor did we get to play the rest of the game against 14 men. In the same way Wales will not benefit from Hore's ban.

Like all of us you only really think about how unfair it is when it effects you.

Agreed, Davies like Hore should have got red, at least Ireland got a yellow out of it and did not lose a player, Wales lost a key player 2 mins in the game.

I hope England benefit from a ban and win the game.

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:Cheap shot for sure and should get cited but don't think it was as bad as made out. It was a swinging forearm rather than a closed fist. 1-2 weeks for me.

Inverdale mentioning the BOD incident to Brooke was just embarrassing. What a muppet....

Really rodders? It was hard enough to knock Davis out. He was gone before he hit the ground, Cynical, pre- meditated and cowardly. Throw the book at him.

Attacking someone from behind has to be one of the most disgusting things a person can do to another.

I'm always amazed at how people fail to actually use their eyes properly. And this is pretty much what slow mo was invented for. Davies was knocked out by Hore's left knee. plain to see.

Morgannwg wrote:I don't see why Davies' incident in the 6 Nations is still being brought up. Our point is that nobody Welsh or English defended it at the time. We all condemned it. Unlike now, where some Kiwi's and English are defending Hore's strike.

You have a very short memory then. There were some who felt Ryan had been rucking illegally and deserved all he got. Some who said we were whinging to mention it...sour grapes etc.

I do think there are similarities between the 2 incidents apart from the fact that Davies was the very unfortunate victim this time.

Clive
the forearm smash poleaxed Davies, plus the L knee hit when he was already outcold.

gregortree wrote:Clive
the forearm smash poleaxed Davies, plus the L knee hit when he was already outcold.

Agreed just watched it

clivemcl wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:Cheap shot for sure and should get cited but don't think it was as bad as made out. It was a swinging forearm rather than a closed fist. 1-2 weeks for me.

Inverdale mentioning the BOD incident to Brooke was just embarrassing. What a muppet....

Really rodders? It was hard enough to knock Davis out. He was gone before he hit the ground, Cynical, pre- meditated and cowardly. Throw the book at him.

Attacking someone from behind has to be one of the most disgusting things a person can do to another.

I'm always amazed at how people fail to actually use their eyes properly. And this is pretty much what slow mo was invented for. Davies was knocked out by Hore's left knee. plain to see.

Totally disagree there Clive.

The way Davies fell shows he was spark out from the short arm long before he even hit the ground. If you are conscious you do not fall that way.

I'm not sure whether Davies was knocked out from the forearm or the knee is really relevant.

Actual harm caused should not be the deciding factor.

Fair enuff!

I don't like all this blanket blaming of AB rugby. Hore committed the foul play and he is to blame. Every nation has it's thugs and idiots and to label one nation as worse is misguided to say the least.

I also don't agree that Davies was blocking. He was taking the shortest route back to his side and the ruck hadn't even properly formed yet.

mckay,

I agree on the whole "blaming a nation" thing.

Have a wee look at this though and tell me Davies isn't blocking. No worse than happens many many times in any game but blocking none the less.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20487856

I can only reiterate that it is absolutely no excuse for what Hore did.

thebluesmancometh wrote:miaow

I see what your saying but a try in under 5 min utes at home to a packed MS where the crowd play an important part???

The optimism of turning the 3 down alone picked the crowd up, if we had gone over the line early, well scoring a 5 minute try 4 minutes after a red card wouldve made one hell of a difference (I know Gatland wasnt expecting a red) but momentum is huge in international rugby, Scotland and wales were able to capitolise after momentum swung their way in the 2nd half, if that had happened in the 5th minute instead of the 55th...

Well yes, exactly, momentum is likely to swing your way when you're a good 10-20 points down and the hitherto dominant side starts to play a more conservative game, opting not to have the ball in their own half. Wales, at 33-0 down, simply had to run it from everywhere, and so they looked more effective, and actually it just shows that if they had met fire with fire from the first, they would probably have been more competitive. I still don't understand how 5 points, and all that goes with it, an upbeat crowd, the psychological advantage of the first blow etc., in the first few minutes is actually better than ticking over the scoreboard with penalties, keeping in touch/building a lead, and then using the tactic when it may prove more decisive, with less time for the opposition (the best team in the world, let us not forget) to actually respond with points of their own.

Hypothetically speaking, taking that incident in isolation, if Wales had scored an unconverted try from that first kick to touch, with the 15 man maul, NZ would have chipped away and surpassed that lead with two penalty kicks that were effectively handed (or kicked) to them with little effort on their part. As the saying goes, you don't win a game in the first 'x' minutes, but you can lose it, and Wales showed unbelievable tactical ineptitude and did their best to do just that. No 'momentum' argument can negate the idiocy of their decision making, which was then compounded by a hideous gameplan of 'give NZ the ball whenever we can possibly kick it to them'. Even more worryingly, if they had got 7 points on the board after 60 seconds, would they have played even more conservatively, feeling the need to defend the slender lead they had on the board? As Hansen said, it stinks of a lack of confidence in their ability and game plan, not believing they could get back in the NZ half and earn points through ball retention.

MrsP wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:I don't see why Davies' incident in the 6 Nations is still being brought up. Our point is that nobody Welsh or English defended it at the time. We all condemned it. Unlike now, where some Kiwi's and English are defending Hore's strike.

You have a very short memory then. There were some who felt Ryan had been rucking illegally and deserved all he got. Some who said we were whinging to mention it...sour grapes etc.

I do think there are similarities between the 2 incidents apart from the fact that Davies was the very unfortunate victim this time.

Can't remember if Ryan was rucking illegally. Davies should have just cleared him out, not speared him. I was shocked by what he did, as were the club full of people. My family also said it. That's a lot of people condeming, plus a few more on here. It was dealt with though. A yellow card (which should have been red) and a ban which meant he missed the rest of the tournament. Nobody would have been more gutted than Bradley. So he did suffer.

I was one of the ones to tell you all to stop whining as a lot of you kept going on about that incident and one or two other ill-decisions in the game for weeks on end, long after it was dealt with.

I don't see what similarities there are. One was just a cowardly attack. At least Ryan was in a position to resist, but he shouldn't have been speared like that anyway, and probably didn't expect to be speared. Bradley served his ban, Wales lost a player for the tournament. We've been on the receiving end of cheap shots for two weekends in a row now and only one incident gets dealt with when it is too late. You can call it swings and roundabouts if you like.

Once again, Mrs P, I don't see why you keep repeating the fact that Davies was blocking. Especially when you reiterate it doesn't condone what happened to him.

Morgannwg wrote:

MrsP wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:I don't see why Davies' incident in the 6 Nations is still being brought up. Our point is that nobody Welsh or English defended it at the time. We all condemned it. Unlike now, where some Kiwi's and English are defending Hore's strike.

You have a very short memory then. There were some who felt Ryan had been rucking illegally and deserved all he got. Some who said we were whinging to mention it...sour grapes etc.

I do think there are similarities between the 2 incidents apart from the fact that Davies was the very unfortunate victim this time.

Can't remember if Ryan was rucking illegally. Davies should have just cleared him out, not speared him. I was shocked by what he did, as were the club full of people. My family also said it. That's a lot of people condeming, plus a few more on here. It was dealt with though. A yellow card (which should have been red) and a ban which meant he missed the rest of the tournament. Nobody would have been more gutted than Bradley. So he did suffer.

I was one of the ones to tell you all to stop whining as a lot of you kept going on about that incident and one or two other ill-decisions in the game for weeks on end, long after it was dealt with.

I don't see what similarities there are. One was just a cowardly attack. At least Ryan was in a position to resist, but he shouldn't have been speared like that anyway, and probably didn't expect to be speared. Bradley served his ban, Wales lost a player for the tournament. We've been on the receiving end of cheap shots for two weekends in a row now and only one incident gets dealt with when it is too late. You can call it swings and roundabouts if you like.

Once again, Mrs P, I don't see why you keep repeating the fact that Davies was blocking. Especially when you reiterate it doesn't condone what happened to him.

I think it's difficult to denote one cowardly and one not: although it's horrendous to hit a guy in the jaw from behind, it's difficult to then claim that Davies's is somehow 'less cowardly'; having driven Ryan away from the ruck several yards, where you would typically expect to just let go of one another with the ball back in play and moving away from you, he picked up Ryan, who had relaxed his body in anticipation of, presumably, getting on with the game, tipped him, and dropped him head first. In both instances, neither player on the receiving end can 'expect' or anticipate what is about to happen to them, and in this sense it's pointless to judge one cowardly and one not.

In terms of the impact on the game, Davies was pretty much off for the rest of it; Wales scored their try when he was off, and I don't think he had any impact when he came back on the pitch, or in the final penalty? In that sense, although it was a blatant red and he did not receive one, his punishment did actually help the team he offended against, if not quite to the full extent. Hore should had reduced his team to 14 men for the remaining 79 minutes, so there is probably a gripe there.

I think he's responding to posters, like myself, who hadn't seen the wide angle, and might have thought Davies was simply retreating in a straight line.

No nation is dirtier than any other; Andy Powell's forearm on McCaw a few years ago was a disgrace, and I still have no idea why he wasn't cited.

It was definitely a cowardly cheap shot on Bradley. Don't see how a tackle can be compared with that. You may as well claim Waburtons spear on Clerc is cowardly. Thorns spear on Smit was cowardly. All three were not.

Morgan,

I think you have made my point better than I ever could.

Warburton's "spear" (was it a spear, or a dump...?) is not cowardly because it was intended to be a big, but fair and clean, tackle.

Davies's is cowardly, as is Thorns's, just as Umaga's was on BOD, because it has been done off the ball, with the only intent being to recklessly intimidate/injure your opposing player when they are as equally helpless (being held up in the air) as Davies was when he has his back turned to Hore.

miaow wrote:Warburton's "spear" (was it a spear, or a dump...?) is not cowardly because it was intended to be a big, but fair and clean, tackle.

Davies's is cowardly, as is Thorns's, just as Umaga's was on BOD, because it has been done off the ball, with the only intent being to recklessly intimidate/injure your opposing player when they are as equally helpless (being held up in the air) as Davies was when he has his back turned to Hore.

100%

Yeah it took lot of guts for Warbs to do that on the world stage right infront of the ref in arguably the most important game in Wales' history with his career, capatincy and repautation on the line.

But yeah joking aside theres a clear difference between acts of violence of this nature and misjudgements, or even overreaction handbags like the Hartley nibble. Theres a scale, this fits on the very grey end of acceptability. It may have "just been the red mist" but players who have no self control should be made to sit down and think about what theyve done, and if they keep displaying a tendancy to lose it needlesly, got rid of (like Grewcock was).

That also goes for the likes of "no angel" Davies of course

There are things I would deem cowardly; punching or kicking someone when they are down, striking someone's head from behind or when they aren't looking. Getting into someones face, driving them backwards then dump tackling them certainly isn't. The one on the receiving end is in a position to defend themselfves (not that I'm defending what Davies did either). It was pointless mentioning this incident and still is.

Sorry I can't tell the difference between a dump, spear and tip tackle these days. Rules eh.

If he was in a position to defensend himself it wasn't a very good tackle and he's an idiot for allowing himself to be speared. The worst of the Davies incident was that he had considerable time to think what he was doing through the whole process. Almost as idiotic as marler punching Moreno after the ref told him not to , then doing it again after looking over just to make sure he'd already got the red card.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:he's an idiot for allowing himself to be speared.

...


...


What...!?

Look you can all keep repeating this as much as you want but you're just making it sound as if you've never played a competitve game of rugby. So stop trying to put yourself into Davies' or Ryan's boots back in that 6 Nations game.

miaow wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:he's an idiot for allowing himself to be speared.

...


...


What...!?

This poster just makes idiotic and unfunny comments all the time. It's best to ignore it.

Morgs, you AWOP ?
[blaming the victims ?]

Did you even read what I said? It's morgwang who said the victim was in a position to defend himself, I suggested had he been he might have done so rather than letting himself be driven head first into the ground. Look I know English isn't the first language for all of you be please do try reading the comments before making abusive replies

gregortree wrote:Peter, you AWOP ?
[blaming the victims ?]

Funnily enough I got accused of being Welsh in the world cup

gregortree wrote:Morgs, you AWOP ?
[blaming the victims ?]

Now that's a dangerous thing to be saying given the bans issued over the past day and night. Where have I blamed what victim?

MrsP wrote:mckay,

I agree on the whole "blaming a nation" thing.

Have a wee look at this though and tell me Davies isn't blocking. No worse than happens many many times in any game but blocking none the less.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20487856

I can only reiterate that it is absolutely no excuse for what Hore did.

No sorry I still don't think he's blocking. Just focused on getting round to the breakdown.

Morgannwg wrote:There are things I would deem cowardly; punching or kicking someone a Welshman when they are down, striking someone's a Welshman's head from behind or when they aren't looking. Getting into someones anyone else's face, driving them backwards then dump tackling them certainly isn't. The one on the receiving end is in a position to defend themselfves not Welsh (not that I'm defending what Davies did either). It was pointless mentioning this incident and still is.

Sorry I can't tell the difference between a dump, spear and tip tackle these days. Rules eh.

Fixed that for you.

2 incidents where stupid, violent, potentially dangerous/career threatening/life changing foul play was pertetrated.

Both were thoroughly deserving of a Red Card.

Neither was adequately dealt with on the pitch.

Both were cited.

One player was involved in both incidences although was he the violent eejit in one and the victim in the other.



If you can't see any similarities between the incidents or understand why they are compared then I can draw only one conclusion.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Did you even read what I said? It's morgwang who said the victim was in a position to defend himself, I suggested had he been he might have done so rather than letting himself be driven head first into the ground. Look I know English isn't the first language for all of you be please do try reading the comments before making abusive replies

Because he was facing Davies head on. Which is why it isn't a cowardly cheap shot, unlike the one Davies received on Saturday. Which is the point I was trying to make. Ryan is no more a less a victim than before this was brought up (I still don't know why it was brought into this in the first place?), I lay the blame for this incident in the Ireland/Wales 6 Nations fixture on Davies for his moment of madness. I don't for a moment think he (nor Andrew Hore) are thugs who intentionally went out to try and injure someone.

MrsP wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:There are things I would deem cowardly; punching or kicking someone a Welshman when they are down, striking someone's a Welshman's head from behind or when they aren't looking. Getting into someones anyone else's face, driving them backwards then dump tackling them certainly isn't. The one on the receiving end is in a position to defend themselfves not Welsh (not that I'm defending what Davies did either). It was pointless mentioning this incident and still is.

Sorry I can't tell the difference between a dump, spear and tip tackle these days. Rules eh.

Fixed that for you.

2 incidents where stupid, violent, potentially dangerous/career threatening/life changing foul play was pertetrated.

Both were thoroughly deserving of a Red Card.

Neither was adequately dealt with on the pitch.

Both were cited.

One player was involved in both incidences although was he the violent eejit in one and the victim in the other.



If you can't see any similarities between the incidents or understand why they are compared then I can draw only one conclusion.

Mrs P, that's pathetic. Grow up ffs.

Yes, I suppose similarities all true. But tell me why the two are compared again? As what Davies did back in the Six Nations is not relevant to Hore's cowardly strike against him.

Right, so now I'm assuming it's settled that an incident that took place in the 6 Nations is irrelevant to the assault on Davies yesterday. Glad that is cleared up. Now I'm convinced you just seen this as another opportunity to have a whinge. I thought the Irish did enough of that back in the 6 Nations?

Might I suggest that with the issue now correctly in the hands of the judiciary that we suspend the now well rehearsed arguments on either side and await the outcome of the disciplinary process before we batter each other to a pulp debating the what-ifs and second guessing the outcome?

It was me who originally brought up Davies prior record, which is of course irrelevant to the case and I appologise for the needless provocation that arose.

Hore's actions were of course indefensible and even in the extremely unlikely case that it was all a big accident, then it was clumsy enough to warrant some time on the sidelines working on his accuracy and concentration skills.

awop, true you did bring it up. I felt it was unecessary for you to do so, but thanks for acknowledging that. I suspect the next arguement will be Hore should have had more weeks or less weeks served during his ban. Not that I'm saying you will be posting an article on this. I think I'll have to stay away from those articles anyway should they appear. Maybe I've been a bit over the top, but wouldn't anyone be after seeing such strikes against their players 2 weeks in a row. Oh well, all done now anyway.
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