Andrew Hore attack on Bradley Davies

First topic message reminder :

It was off the ball, from behind and completely unprovoked.

How long should Andrew Hore be getting for this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgqpVdu3KK0
&
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QN8o_t0Vylo

(Ignore the fact that it says Aaron Jarvis in the second link)

I was criticised yesterday, as apparently the Irish don't mention the Davies incident from February now. Apparently it's just Wales with the always the victim mentality. Davies was dealt with, so that should surely be that? There's no need to reference it again (in my mind) unless Davies does a stupid act again in the future.

Cheap shot? yes
Cowardly? yes
Throw the book at him? no
A few week ban will do,what bothers me most is Hansen acting like nothing happened.
Seen far worse, lets remember Bradley Davies picked up Donncha Ryan and power slammed the big Irish lad right on his upper back, he could have easily broke his back!

This Hore incident seems to be stirred up by the British pundits and press

Actually Hansen is making a very similar one to the one I was making: it's hard not to see it as suspicious that suddenly books are being thrown after NZ suffered an entire series prior to this where blatant acts of cowardly thuggery were not dealt with. But important to realise, I think, that penalties are generally harsher in the NH via the 6N judiciary. It's very rare that there are 6 or 8 week bans in super rugby or the RC/3N.

I notice that Hansen has been a little provocative in a lot of his media interaction, mocking Wales and Gatland with "you'll have to ask the Messiah himself, perhaps they didn't realise we'd score a lot of points" when asked why he thought Wales spurned kickable penalties. Not particularly professional in my view. I guess he will learn, he's new to the job after all.

AWOP - Hansen was not that popular in Wales and he presided over some dire matches and made some strange selections (what's new I hear you say)- I knew before he came here that he had his own agenda. Like many on here he's taken the bait, something Graham Henry would never have done. All said, I wish him well

Risca Rev wrote:I was criticised yesterday, as apparently the Irish don't mention the Davies incident from February now. Apparently it's just Wales with the always the victim mentality. Davies was dealt with, so that should surely be that? There's no need to reference it again (in my mind) unless Davies does a stupid act again in the future.

Yeah totally. I was trying to make a point of this all along but Mrs P ignored that and childishly edited my post. Was it meant to be funny? Who knows why a poor incident that happened in a previous season in a different competition rears it's head again (unless you're an Irish whinger or PSW). I hope Bradley stays away from such foul play in the future and concentrates on playing rugby. As Dylan Hartley found out before (just an honest example, not accusation) the thug or coward tag can stay with you for a while after a few incidents. Nice to see he has done what he can to shake off that tag and become a better rugby player.

RubyGuby wrote:AWOP - Hansen was not that popular in Wales and he presided over some dire matches and made some strange selections (what's new I hear you say)- I knew before he came here that he had his own agenda. Like many on here he's taken the bait, something Graham Henry would never have done. All said, I wish him well

Hansen was loathed by the press. But Hansen did an amazing amount of good work that Graham Henry hadn't done and few could do before him, or after. Ruddock massively reaped the rewards of it too. Watch that recent Gareth Thomas docu, see what Hansen did for Thomas' career.

Hanse gave a flippant comment to baying journalist. It is nothing to do with the incident, it neither condones nor chastises it.

By the way Brad Davies' concussion from the KO is enough that he is not allowed to play next weekend.

www.stuff.co.nz
Thuggery or a one-off transgression?

By MARC HINTON, DUNCAN JOHNSTONE
Last updated 05:00 27/11/2012


Mindless thuggery with serious overtones or merely a one-off transgression from one of the good guys?

Fairfax Media senior writers Marc Hinton and Duncan Johnstone debate the culpability of the All Blacks hooker as he gets set to face the music.

MARC HINTON

There's a fine line between fame and shame, and the All Blacks are in grave danger of crossing it. Suddenly they are no longer the victims but the vicious, and it's a look that doesn't suit them.

First we had Adam Thomson's boot coming down on a Scotsman's head - an act we were told was without malice, and certainly inflicted no harm, but was nonetheless careless and pretty ugly.

Now we have Andrew Hore's open-and-shut case of thuggery against Wales that threatens to do more harm to the All Blacks "brand" than any number of exhilarating tries and emphatic victories. Shame.

In one brainless, defenceless act of brutality, the All Blacks hooker has turned the microscope on a New Zealand outfit that can no longer claim the moral high ground on the subject of dirty play.

The All Blacks love to play the victims when it comes to any nasty business about, and they have had a pretty good record in recent years. Their restraint in the face of some suspiciously sustained attacks on Richie McCaw has been admirable, to say the least.

But a line has been crossed here.

Hore's hideous swinging arm to the back of the head of Bradley Davies in just the second minute of Sunday's test defies explanation.

It was cynical. It was deliberate. It was vicious. And it was gutless.

It was also illogical. How, so soon, had Hore reached such a crescendo of aggression that he might let loose with such a wanton act of thuggery?

The All Blacks are the self-styled entertainers of rugby, the custodians of the beauty that exists within an often brutal game. They pride themselves on playing hard but fair.

Their brand has been built not only by a glorious history, but also by the power and grace with which they play. Nowhere in the TV ads or endless slogans are we told that they're thugs who like to hit people from behind.

The upshot of Hore's brain explosion should not be under-estimated. This was the headline in one leading British publication: "New Zealand play lovely rugby but they are not lovely sportsmen." It sums up the feeling in the north right now.

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Then you have social media decreeing that Hore had gone from "shooting seals to clubbing Wales". Tawdry stuff. When the coach fails to emphatically condemn his player afterwards, further eyebrows are raised.

Not the stuff Steve Tew would have you believe companies should pay millions to be associated with.



DUNCAN JOHNSTONE

Andrew Hore's outrageous act falls into the thuggery category but to categorise the All Blacks that way is unfair.

Discipline - on and off the field - was a hallmark of the Graham Henry era though the nature of the game meant even his sides, playing with unmatched pace and power, could not remain squeaky clean.

Hore and Adam Thomson have been two disappointing slip-ups that new coach Steve Hansen must arrest or risk his side falling back into being wrongly stereotyped like All Blacks teams of old.

But based on recent history - and both players' records - these unfortunate acts need to be treated as isolated incidents rather than a worrying trend.

The All Blacks mystique has been built on a team that plays fantastic football combined with a hard edge.

In the days of good, old-fashioned rucking, being grounded in All Blacks territory was never a place for the faint-hearted. And nor should it be, argued the All Blacks who pride themselves on their physicality.

As Tana Umaga famously told Australian referee Peter Marshall when being penalised after a touch judge flagged him for a high tackle: "We're not playing tiddlywinks here, mate."

Hard but fair has been the All Blacks' decree. They justifiably bristle when tagged "dirty" though they will always push the boundaries as any top team or athlete will do. It comes with the domain that is dominance.

But it's certainly not as black and white as the English media like to point out.

The All Blacks aren't as sinister as their colour suggests, nor are the Poms as lilly-white as their playing strip.

In the professional era where TV cameras and citing commissioners have brought a microscope on foul play, England would be better at looking in the mirror than pointing the finger at the All Blacks.

While the All Blacks haven't been immune to judicial appearances, England have provided some serial offenders, notably the loutish locks Danny Grewcock and Simon Shaw in the not-too-distant past.

Their current crop aren't exempt either. Inappropriately named new lock Courtney Lawes has got off to an inauspicious start and hooker Dylan Hartley's dastardly deeds include eye-gouging and biting, two crimes that far exceed Hore's excesses.

- © Fairfax NZ News

Jeez I love how England get the blame for it!

All in its a fairly balanced article till the end. Simon Shaws an odd one to brink up, I dont remember him being especially dirty or getting many bans

Grewcock fair enough, the guy was an animal.

Dont see the need for racial slurs or to accuse this if being the "English" media ( British/ Welsh?) thats whipped up a fury

I wonder if in light of the recent transgressions against NZ and specifically McCaw and the lack of sanctions forthcoming, and the NZ press noting the "lack of mongrel", if some might have felt the need to up the stakes a bit on the aggression front?

I think the whole of Rugby 606v2 has blown wide open on the basis of 2 main reasons.

The Thompson / Hore incidents and the fact that the NH (France aside- and not significant posters on these boards) are not able to match their RC counterparts on the scoreboard. Plus the fact that a lot of the rugby has been dour with few shining lights to shout about..

With Hore it seems that after NZ was riding on top as prima donnas for a good 2-3 years now and for some (not all mind you) this is an excellent opportunity to dump on them.

What Hore did was completely unacceptable and he deserves what he gets. I believe its his first major incident in many tests (or others would have found them and posted them here) and he needs to seriously look at what he wants to achieve form here.

Hore (and Thompson) have embarrassed NZ rugby for all it stands for where our on field behaviour is usually exemplary. I use the word 'usually' because that is the case. We are certainly not prima donnas but we do set at least as high as any other on the field in that respect.

I dont know the numbers but the 'attacks' on our players are probably higher than any other side and I agree that there is NO excuse for this behaviour- neither Hore thinking the guy was in the way, NOR when McCaw and any other player are attacked for this or that reason.

You either cross the line, or you don't, and Hore was well across it. Hore will get done and his career is at risk though probably less so with Hansen than he would have been with GH.

Ok to have a go at the man for the incident, but for those looking for a piece of 'NZ'- clearly obvious with some of the posts here, thats unfortunate.

NZ rugby certainly has a lot more good about it than bad, last weekend it has taken a bad knock, but will be back again, and hopefully, from our point of view, its departing action is a good tough, incident free win against England, playing the game the way the ABs love to play it.

The Home Union sides have also taken a knock, unable to capitalise on understrength Oz and Bok sides as well as taking a hit from the lower ranked Island sides.

Hopefully these rugby boards can return to the warm and vibrant community it once was.

My last on the subject.

Listen...we all know NZ are the best side on the planet. This discussion is about a douche of a bloke who was very stupid and I'm afraid to say, a bit pathetic (and yes I would say it to his face), i've been hit from behind and its not pleasant.
He's also a very good no 2 so all the better for england!! Now...let's have a cockerill like answer to the haka!!!!!

An All Black test? At Twickenham? "Incident Free?"

Yeah, right.

Is there more to this story still to come?

"Andrew Hore was a taboo topic for the All Blacks today as footage emerged showing a possible motive for knocking out Welsh lock Bradley Davies. "

"What I would say to you is you know he's been cited, we have something on Wednesday and you know I can't say much about it... but we have something to go through and there is an unknown about it, so we'll wait and see." Ian Foster is quoted as saying.

What is it with New Zealanders and their inability to take responsibility? Hansen may as well have been reading from any of AWOPs threads

The words I heard from hansen were he did the crime and must be accountable. He also said that as a team NZ are not usually like that. This is one mans actions.

Both statements are true, and neither are being heard..

How is that not being accountable?

Taylorman wrote:The words I heard from hansen were he did the crime and must be accountable. He also said that as a team NZ are not usually like that. This is one mans actions.

Both statements are true, and neither are being heard..

How is that not being accountable?

Because those were not really the words quoted from Hansen. It was more along the lines of: " If the incident happened, and if he did it, he did it. People have to be accountable, etc. But you also have to take into consideration the mitigating factors." He also made some comments that "this happens to NZ every time we come up here. And I'm resigned to the fact that Hore will be cited. "

These statements strike me as more resentful, equivocal, if not somewhat evasive. He knows full well that Hore was out of order. Simply say so, and that it's not in the spirit of the game, and not acceptable for an All Black player, so now We have to wait for the judiciary. And move on.

The BBC footage that shows Davies tracking Hore before where he deliberately runs across his line as Hore runs forward - twice. The third time, Hore clobbers him to get him out of the way.

And there's footage showing that apparently it could have been Hores left knee that cold cocked Davies. So he didn't punch him at all really.

There was also a sniper on the grassy knoll in Row ZWZ but he was having a drink in the bar at the time and has been excluded from further inquiries.

There have been a notable incidents of foul play committed by New Zealand players over the last 40 or so years of rugby. In 1967 at Murrayfield Colin Meads got sent off for a deliberate act of foul play for an attempted direct kick at a Scottish player. The following year during the Bledisloe Cup, Colin Meads was again involved this time in a bigger act of thuggery in which he apparently grabbed hold of the Wallaby scrum half Ken Catchpole's leg which was hanging/sticking out of a ruck situation and used his strength to forcefully tear out Catchpole's ligaments thus ending the Wallaby's rugby career. In 1976 during the All Blacks tour of South Africa, the All Black prop Bill Bush was seen to push a Springbok player at the head area from behind during a huge scrap/furball between both pack of forwards which was started after a small punchup broke out between Springbok lock Moaner Van Heerden and All Black Flanker Ian Kirkpatrick. Moving on to 1987 during the rugby world cup semi-final v Wales, the All Black number eight totally laid out the Wales lock Huw Richards with a bigger punch/haymaker than the one which Hore gave out to Bradley Davies last Saturday, and finally during the 1992 Bledisloe Cup match V Australia, the All Black prop Richard Loe broke the Australian winger Paul Carozza's nose with a big swing of his huge forearm.

gboycottnut wrote:There have been a notable incidents of foul play committed by New Zealand players over the last 40 or so years of rugby. In 1967 at Murrayfield Colin Meads got sent off for a deliberate act of foul play for an attempted direct kick at a Scottish player. The following year during the Bledisloe Cup, Colin Meads was again involved this time in a bigger act of thuggery in which he apparently grabbed hold of the Wallaby scrum half Ken Catchpole's leg which was hanging/sticking out of a ruck situation and used his strength to forcefully tear out Catchpole's ligaments thus ending the Wallaby's rugby career. In 1976 during the All Blacks tour of South Africa, the All Black prop Bill Bush was seen to push a Springbok player at the head area from behind during a huge scrap/furball between both pack of forwards which was started after a small punchup broke out between Springbok lock Moaner Van Heerden and All Black Flanker Ian Kirkpatrick. Moving on to 1987 during the rugby world cup semi-final v Wales, the All Black number eight totally laid out the Wales lock Huw Richards with a bigger punch/haymaker than the one which Hore gave out to Bradley Davies last Saturday, and finally during the 1992 Bledisloe Cup match V Australia, the All Black prop Richard Loe broke the Australian winger Paul Carozza's nose with a big swing of his huge forearm.

I would think that if you applied the same standard to any team in world rugby over the past 45 years you could come up with many instances of thuggery. Try it with your team!

Gunner wrote:

gboycottnut wrote:There have been a notable incidents of foul play committed by New Zealand players over the last 40 or so years of rugby. In 1967 at Murrayfield Colin Meads got sent off for a deliberate act of foul play for an attempted direct kick at a Scottish player. The following year during the Bledisloe Cup, Colin Meads was again involved this time in a bigger act of thuggery in which he apparently grabbed hold of the Wallaby scrum half Ken Catchpole's leg which was hanging/sticking out of a ruck situation and used his strength to forcefully tear out Catchpole's ligaments thus ending the Wallaby's rugby career. In 1976 during the All Blacks tour of South Africa, the All Black prop Bill Bush was seen to push a Springbok player at the head area from behind during a huge scrap/furball between both pack of forwards which was started after a small punchup broke out between Springbok lock Moaner Van Heerden and All Black Flanker Ian Kirkpatrick. Moving on to 1987 during the rugby world cup semi-final v Wales, the All Black number eight totally laid out the Wales lock Huw Richards with a bigger punch/haymaker than the one which Hore gave out to Bradley Davies last Saturday, and finally during the 1992 Bledisloe Cup match V Australia, the All Black prop Richard Loe broke the Australian winger Paul Carozza's nose with a big swing of his huge forearm.

I would think that if you applied the same standard to any team in world rugby over the past 45 years you could come up with many instances of thuggery. Try it with your team!

But nothing to the same scale of thuggery that the likes of Meads, Shelford and Loe dished out to their victims.

Perhaps but Meads play a half with a broken arm and Shelford played the 99 quarter loss to the French with one testicle nearly torn off.

And those players all played 15 odd years ago or more.

6 incidents youve named- McCaw has had more than that alone in his career- sure not as bad but 4 in the last year alone. Didnt see many backing him up on these boards. All 'justified' was the consensus of many

One things for sure, our lot do less crying about it. The level of vitriolic attacks, banned posters, locked threads has been way over the top.

gboycottnut wrote:

Gunner wrote:

gboycottnut wrote:There have been a notable incidents of foul play committed by New Zealand players over the last 40 or so years of rugby. In 1967 at Murrayfield Colin Meads got sent off for a deliberate act of foul play for an attempted direct kick at a Scottish player. The following year during the Bledisloe Cup, Colin Meads was again involved this time in a bigger act of thuggery in which he apparently grabbed hold of the Wallaby scrum half Ken Catchpole's leg which was hanging/sticking out of a ruck situation and used his strength to forcefully tear out Catchpole's ligaments thus ending the Wallaby's rugby career. In 1976 during the All Blacks tour of South Africa, the All Black prop Bill Bush was seen to push a Springbok player at the head area from behind during a huge scrap/furball between both pack of forwards which was started after a small punchup broke out between Springbok lock Moaner Van Heerden and All Black Flanker Ian Kirkpatrick. Moving on to 1987 during the rugby world cup semi-final v Wales, the All Black number eight totally laid out the Wales lock Huw Richards with a bigger punch/haymaker than the one which Hore gave out to Bradley Davies last Saturday, and finally during the 1992 Bledisloe Cup match V Australia, the All Black prop Richard Loe broke the Australian winger Paul Carozza's nose with a big swing of his huge forearm.

I would think that if you applied the same standard to any team in world rugby over the past 45 years you could come up with many instances of thuggery. Try it with your team!

But nothing to the same scale of thuggery that the likes of Meads, Shelford and Loe dished out to their victims.

Any tour of aparthied era South Africa was a brutal affair. A bit tough to single out Bill Bush. Only two years earlier, in 1974, the Lions instigated the infamous 99 call for the all in brawl. Surely thats premeditated rugby violence.
who's your team Gboycottnut?

Like the old residency debate people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

I grew up through the 70s playing and watching rugby, one of the former PE teachers you to show us how to throw cheap shots in the scrum at get away with it.

My Uncle played for Ebbw Vale and Abertillery through the 70s and my cousin played for Ebbw through the 80s if you listen to some of their stories of what went on it would make your toes curl, so thuggery right or wrong is not solely dished out by the ABs

Pot Hale wrote:The BBC footage that shows Davies tracking Hore before where he deliberately runs across his line as Hore runs forward - twice. The third time, Hore clobbers him to get him out of the way.

And there's footage showing that apparently it could have been Hores left knee that cold cocked Davies. So he didn't punch him at all really.

There was also a sniper on the grassy knoll in Row ZWZ but he was having a drink in the bar at the time and has been excluded from further inquiries.

Yes I saw that. For a good 20 meters he was shadowing in front of him, looking back at Hore to make sure he was crowding his way to the ball, instead of focussing on rejoining the ruck himself.

Like I said- it can never be justified but he sure picked the wrong guy to muck with.

gboycottnut wrote:

Gunner wrote:

gboycottnut wrote:There have been a notable incidents of foul play committed by New Zealand players over the last 40 or so years of rugby. In 1967 at Murrayfield Colin Meads got sent off for a deliberate act of foul play for an attempted direct kick at a Scottish player. The following year during the Bledisloe Cup, Colin Meads was again involved this time in a bigger act of thuggery in which he apparently grabbed hold of the Wallaby scrum half Ken Catchpole's leg which was hanging/sticking out of a ruck situation and used his strength to forcefully tear out Catchpole's ligaments thus ending the Wallaby's rugby career. In 1976 during the All Blacks tour of South Africa, the All Black prop Bill Bush was seen to push a Springbok player at the head area from behind during a huge scrap/furball between both pack of forwards which was started after a small punchup broke out between Springbok lock Moaner Van Heerden and All Black Flanker Ian Kirkpatrick. Moving on to 1987 during the rugby world cup semi-final v Wales, the All Black number eight totally laid out the Wales lock Huw Richards with a bigger punch/haymaker than the one which Hore gave out to Bradley Davies last Saturday, and finally during the 1992 Bledisloe Cup match V Australia, the All Black prop Richard Loe broke the Australian winger Paul Carozza's nose with a big swing of his huge forearm.

I would think that if you applied the same standard to any team in world rugby over the past 45 years you could come up with many instances of thuggery. Try it with your team!

But nothing to the same scale of thuggery that the likes of Meads, Shelford and Loe dished out to their victims.

Utter tosh.

The Huw Richards incident https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rj839DQuMaI - perhaps he shouldn't have thrown the first one. And contrast that with the Frenchman who ripped open Shelford's scrotum in a match.

Granted Loe was a thug. So was Danny Grewcock.

Kingsley Jones said Davies was doing just that and a lot of others do, I guess Bradley was expecting that sort of treatment, maybe a shove in the back or a trip but not what he got.

I think it was a combination of the punch, the kneee and he seemd to hit the floor quite hard to.

Yeah either way it wasnt a good ad for rugby. I think we all get that. NZ will wear this for a while as a reminder and so we should. No one is above the game and Hore needs to first win back the respect of the rugby public, something that often can NEVER be done, no matter how saintly one becomes.

Pot Hale wrote:The BBC footage that shows Davies tracking Hore before where he deliberately runs across his line as Hore runs forward - twice. The third time, Hore clobbers him to get him out of the way.

And there's footage showing that apparently it could have been Hores left knee that cold cocked Davies. So he didn't punch him at all really.

There was also a sniper on the grassy knoll in Row ZWZ but he was having a drink in the bar at the time and has been excluded from further inquiries.

This is what I said a the time. Davies was running obstruction and hore is single mindedly headed for the ruck.

But there are some bitter people out there fueled by the predicted British media frenzy for whom facts are now a mere inconvenience.why deal in reason and truth when you can jump on a bandwagon and dish out some anxious hate?

Both Hore and Davies should be banned, Davies for running intentional obstructive lines, which was utterly stupid, especially when youve got a glass jaw.

Hore also should be banned for the sheer stupidity of running the risk of reducing his team to 14 players.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Both Hore and Davies should be banned, Davies for running intentional obstructive lines, which was utterly stupid, especially when youve got a glass jaw.

Hore also should be banned for the sheer stupidity of running the risk of reducing his team to 14 players.

Hahahaha Glass jaw, takes a big man to do what hore did, brave man indeed. I am getting a Tee Shirt made. "Never turn your back on a Kiwi", and I'll walk around NZ in it. Brave brave men.

Pot Hale wrote:

Taylorman wrote:The words I heard from hansen were he did the crime and must be accountable. He also said that as a team NZ are not usually like that. This is one mans actions.

Both statements are true, and neither are being heard..

How is that not being accountable?

Because those were not really the words quoted from Hansen. It was more along the lines of: " If the incident happened, and if he did it, he did it. People have to be accountable, etc. But you also have to take into consideration the mitigating factors." He also made some comments that "this happens to NZ every time we come up here. And I'm resigned to the fact that Hore will be cited. "

These statements strike me as more resentful, equivocal, if not somewhat evasive. He knows full well that Hore was out of order. Simply say so, and that it's not in the spirit of the game, and not acceptable for an All Black player, so now We have to wait for the judiciary. And move on.

Fair enough. I'd said this about Hansen when he took over. He doesnt have the same PR or standards of Henry and shrugging it off like that didnt help.

It will serve to motivate the ABs this week and although they wont be able to help it, the negative press and comment, crowd during the game will only serve to fire the ABs up.

The other thing to come out of this series and the summer series is the poor quality of rugby being played by the home union sides. Poor decisions, poor basics, unable to close out matches despite staying in touch. And this includes several matches against the bok and oz sides that are at least playing half a team from their top sides.

Add to that the two tier two defeats and its truly looking gloomy. The gap is widening and the only shining light in the north remains as usual, France.

Even the poll here was should we start touring the South pacific more?

It explains what was going through Hore's mind, but I don't think it justifies the actions. I'm guessing his defence will be, he gave him a whack to get hom out of the way and he collected his knee on the way down. However, it still looks bad and I'm guessing he'll get maximum punishment.

On that note I listened to an former judicial officer today on the subject. I suspect he wont get as long as most people expect. I think the maximum ban is 8 games. So he misses this weekend an then 7 games next year. The IRB doesn't discriminate on the level of games. The highlanders have 3 preseason games that all count under the IBB laws. If he has a bye and a club game that would count to. All up I'm guessing he'll be playing by early April 2013.

That's assuming none of the mitigating factors the judicial panels apply don't come into play.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Both Hore and Davies should be banned, Davies for running intentional obstructive lines, which was utterly stupid, especially when youve got a glass jaw.

Hore also should be banned for the sheer stupidity of running the risk of reducing his team to 14 players.

May as well ban the Australian backline then! I can only hope that you are being tongue-firmly-in-cheek, laurie, otherwise you've just leapt to the top of the daft comment tree

Taylorman wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Taylorman wrote:The words I heard from hansen were he did the crime and must be accountable. He also said that as a team NZ are not usually like that. This is one mans actions.

Both statements are true, and neither are being heard..

How is that not being accountable?

Because those were not really the words quoted from Hansen. It was more along the lines of: " If the incident happened, and if he did it, he did it. People have to be accountable, etc. But you also have to take into consideration the mitigating factors." He also made some comments that "this happens to NZ every time we come up here. And I'm resigned to the fact that Hore will be cited. "

These statements strike me as more resentful, equivocal, if not somewhat evasive. He knows full well that Hore was out of order. Simply say so, and that it's not in the spirit of the game, and not acceptable for an All Black player, so now We have to wait for the judiciary. And move on.

Fair enough. I'd said this about Hansen when he took over. He doesnt have the same PR or standards of Henry and shrugging it off like that didnt help.

It will serve to motivate the ABs this week and although they wont be able to help it, the negative press and comment, crowd during the game will only serve to fire the ABs up.

The other thing to come out of this series and the summer series is the poor quality of rugby being played by the home union sides. Poor decisions, poor basics, unable to close out matches despite staying in touch. And this includes several matches against the bok and oz sides that are at least playing half a team from their top sides.

Add to that the two tier two defeats and its truly looking gloomy. The gap is widening and the only shining light in the north remains as usual, France.

Even the poll here was should we start touring the South pacific more?

+1. Very disappointing

And a tour of the islands would be great, even tho we know that financially fixtures in NZ or Aus may be financially more rewarding for their unions

If the maximum ban is 8 weeks. I think thats the striking one then Hore will get 18 weeks.
Perhaps Davies should be sited as well, even though he could claim that no further penalty is warranted.

The entry level for a high end striking offence is 8 weeks, not the maximum. Thats lifetime.

Taylorman,
Last night i was talking to the Welsh poster Griff on this very thing, on watching the Wales/AB game, and if you ignore all the razzmitazz of the tries etc, and look at elements of the execution of play, the only difference between the two teams was that the All Blacks did the little things right (accuracy as Ted used to call it) and Wales didnt.

aucklandlaurie wrote: If the maximum ban is 8 weeks. I think thats the striking one then Hore will get 18 weeks.
Perhaps Davies should be sited as well, even though he could claim that no further penalty is warranted.

if the max ban is 8 weeks, I'm expecting something between 4-8, depending on the level of remorse Hore shows at the citing appointment. Laurie, pls stop inciting things with your silly 'Davies should be cited for obstructive running' comments - that would be a YC offence at most and only in extremis

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:The entry level for a high end striking offence is 8 weeks, not the maximum. Thats lifetime.

if entry if 8 weeks, then I could see 12-15. But I think we need to move on?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:The entry level for a high end striking offence is 8 weeks, not the maximum. Thats lifetime.

Well if thats the case then he will get 18 months.

Depends if the see it as a high end or mid range offence I guess. Also depends on his prior record and how many biscuits he eats during the rpocess, and if he addresses the judiciary with respect and cap doffing or in the style of a NZ Herald columnist

Regardless he wont miss much proper rugby

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Taylorman wrote:The words I heard from hansen were he did the crime and must be accountable. He also said that as a team NZ are not usually like that. This is one mans actions.

Both statements are true, and neither are being heard..

How is that not being accountable?

Because those were not really the words quoted from Hansen. It was more along the lines of: " If the incident happened, and if he did it, he did it. People have to be accountable, etc. But you also have to take into consideration the mitigating factors." He also made some comments that "this happens to NZ every time we come up here. And I'm resigned to the fact that Hore will be cited. "

These statements strike me as more resentful, equivocal, if not somewhat evasive. He knows full well that Hore was out of order. Simply say so, and that it's not in the spirit of the game, and not acceptable for an All Black player, so now We have to wait for the judiciary. And move on.

Fair enough. I'd said this about Hansen when he took over. He doesnt have the same PR or standards of Henry and shrugging it off like that didnt help.

It will serve to motivate the ABs this week and although they wont be able to help it, the negative press and comment, crowd during the game will only serve to fire the ABs up.

The other thing to come out of this series and the summer series is the poor quality of rugby being played by the home union sides. Poor decisions, poor basics, unable to close out matches despite staying in touch. And this includes several matches against the bok and oz sides that are at least playing half a team from their top sides.

Add to that the two tier two defeats and its truly looking gloomy. The gap is widening and the only shining light in the north remains as usual, France.

Even the poll here was should we start touring the South pacific more?

+1. Very disappointing

And a tour of the islands would be great, even tho we know that financially fixtures in NZ or Aus may be financially more rewarding for their unions

Yeah its a shame what the last 12 months has done up there.
When looking at the island matches I'm convinced the NH just dont have the right level of athletes playing this sport. The Tongans were all over Scotland running through and around them at pace.

There just arent enough genuine athletic players in the home union sides. Perhaps its too much gym, not enough getting out there and running around with the ball as kids in the parks. I just keep seeing the odd rare run or break getting huge cheers when other sides are doing it all the time.

I really do wonder what these teams are doing for the 80 minutes because its not a lot other than set pieces and trundling the ball up and down the field endlessly with little to show for it.

A pity as its not always been like this.

Taylorman wrote:
The other thing to come out of this series and the summer series is the poor quality of rugby being played by the home union sides. Poor decisions, poor basics, unable to close out matches despite staying in touch. And this includes several matches against the bok and oz sides that are at least playing half a team from their top sides.

Add to that the two tier two defeats and its truly looking gloomy. The gap is widening and the only shining light in the north remains as usual, France.

Even the poll here was should we start touring the South pacific more?

Totally agree. The NH are way off the pace right now. I suspect thats one reason why the media want to make such a big story out of these things....to distract from the real story i.e. that 2 years out from the RWC the home nations are nonchalently being handed their backsides by the SH sides.

Hore has been cited and will be rightly punished for a cynical bit of foul play. Davies will miss the next game which is unfortunate for him and Wales but the world hasn't ended. I think some people need to find a bit of perspective here.....

The big issue is whether or not the NH sides can get their arses in gear and make the 2015 RWC, let alone the next few seasons AIs, something worth turning into .. ......

Thats right ireland especially have been terrible and might as well not have any backs. France too, what a bunch of jokers.


Bit harsh really ...its the winter, they are playing better sides, and neither SA or Aus turned up wanting to play expansive 15 man rugby either.

Its not like the gap in quality and the scorelines are any different to normal.

Rodders
You make some good points, its as if Northern Hemisphere rugby uses things like Coloured cards, penalties, citings, suspensions as some sort of convenient distraction to the true state of the game, and more importantly how its played. Look at the Australian front row they may not be the Worlds best scrumagers but they can handle the ball as good as most Northern Hemisphere backlines, but you will only hear how bad they are at scrumaging.

Surely, in general, if your front row can't scrummage it is pretty irrelevant how silky their ball handling skills are, no?

Otherwise we'd all have OHs wearing the low numbers.

I'd say its only irrelevant if you lose Mrs P.....

You could also argue that its irrelevant how well your front row can scrummage if the rest of the team don't know how to use the ball when they get it....

Taylorman wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Taylorman wrote:The words I heard from hansen were he did the crime and must be accountable. He also said that as a team NZ are not usually like that. This is one mans actions.

Both statements are true, and neither are being heard..

How is that not being accountable?

Because those were not really the words quoted from Hansen. It was more along the lines of: " If the incident happened, and if he did it, he did it. People have to be accountable, etc. But you also have to take into consideration the mitigating factors." He also made some comments that "this happens to NZ every time we come up here. And I'm resigned to the fact that Hore will be cited. "

These statements strike me as more resentful, equivocal, if not somewhat evasive. He knows full well that Hore was out of order. Simply say so, and that it's not in the spirit of the game, and not acceptable for an All Black player, so now We have to wait for the judiciary. And move on.

Fair enough. I'd said this about Hansen when he took over. He doesnt have the same PR or standards of Henry and shrugging it off like that didnt help.

It will serve to motivate the ABs this week and although they wont be able to help it, the negative press and comment, crowd during the game will only serve to fire the ABs up.

The other thing to come out of this series and the summer series is the poor quality of rugby being played by the home union sides. Poor decisions, poor basics, unable to close out matches despite staying in touch. And this includes several matches against the bok and oz sides that are at least playing half a team from their top sides.

Add to that the two tier two defeats and its truly looking gloomy. The gap is widening and the only shining light in the north remains as usual, France.

Even the poll here was should we start touring the South pacific more?

The rugby has been average. And the SH have fully participated in said mediocrity. The SA and Aus sides, despite being ranked 2nd and 3rd, were dull and uninspiring. And even the ABs, head anbd shoulders above the rest, have been leaking tries, and rarely managing more than half a game. Rugby is currently struggling.

True but why cant they do both. Just seems like theres a prescribed, narrow roll for the players up there and running the ball is off the cards unless its a one up..
Theres no instinct to run a ball, to do something out of the ordinary. Theres just this rigid gameplan when all it needs sometimes is for the nearest person to just have a go.

Whens the last time a prop lock or hooker chipped through for anyone. Census did it on the weekend, Dane Coles has done it a couple of times that I've seen.

Theres this never ending analysis about controlling the breakdowns, set pieces and nothing about what individuals can do to get that one or two breaks needed to break the game open.

Without the license to have a go you kill any instinctive notions- opportune moments that come and are left to pass to 'follow the plan'

Barney McGrew did it wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Taylorman wrote:The words I heard from hansen were he did the crime and must be accountable. He also said that as a team NZ are not usually like that. This is one mans actions.

Both statements are true, and neither are being heard..

How is that not being accountable?

Because those were not really the words quoted from Hansen. It was more along the lines of: " If the incident happened, and if he did it, he did it. People have to be accountable, etc. But you also have to take into consideration the mitigating factors." He also made some comments that "this happens to NZ every time we come up here. And I'm resigned to the fact that Hore will be cited. "

These statements strike me as more resentful, equivocal, if not somewhat evasive. He knows full well that Hore was out of order. Simply say so, and that it's not in the spirit of the game, and not acceptable for an All Black player, so now We have to wait for the judiciary. And move on.

Fair enough. I'd said this about Hansen when he took over. He doesnt have the same PR or standards of Henry and shrugging it off like that didnt help.

It will serve to motivate the ABs this week and although they wont be able to help it, the negative press and comment, crowd during the game will only serve to fire the ABs up.

The other thing to come out of this series and the summer series is the poor quality of rugby being played by the home union sides. Poor decisions, poor basics, unable to close out matches despite staying in touch. And this includes several matches against the bok and oz sides that are at least playing half a team from their top sides.

Add to that the two tier two defeats and its truly looking gloomy. The gap is widening and the only shining light in the north remains as usual, France.

Even the poll here was should we start touring the South pacific more?

The rugby has been average. And the SH have fully participated in said mediocrity. The SA and Aus sides, despite being ranked 2nd and 3rd, were dull and uninspiring. And even the ABs, head anbd shoulders above the rest, have been leaking tries, and rarely managing more than half a game. Rugby is currently struggling.

Yes I agree and I largely said the same during the RC as it was similar then.

Rugby is struggling but the ABs, despite not being the rampaging team of the past are still attacking with all theyve got, still looking for holes all over the paddock, still encouraging individuality and the pursuit of breaking down defences.

France are similar and so are the Island sides, albeit it at a lower level.

For Beale it is a constant source of frustration and only tonight he reiterated that Oz need to regain its attacking abilities so Ive no concerns theyll do that. Its in their DNA.

But until then the ABs will always have to much in the tank if sides continue to hold the ball and not do enough with it. Its happening now and other than the odd loss this will continue while others play this stagnating game.