The Original - England v All Blacks - KO 14:30 Sat 1st DEC at HQ - Match Thread/Build Up etc....

[HERSH]

First topic message reminder :

Feel free to discuss this game and any other aspect involving the England Rugby team good or bad as your opinions count and you won't be judged (by me) if you go against England, but do try to give a reason!

Please respect other posters opinions

Game 1: Eng v Fiji 54-12 World class performance.
Game 2: Eng v Aus 14-20 We was robbed, by ourselves.
Game 3: Eng v SA 15-16 We was robbed, by our Captain this time.
Game 4: Eng v NZ ??-??

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

I believe they're trialling a brown card for the runny bottoms this weekend. The weeing would be covered by a yellow.

God, I dread to think what the white card is for...

Theres a reason they dont let James Haskell play in games with female referees.

[gregortree]

You've got me worried about Englands white kit now.

[AND on that note, did ABs take advantage of Wales red kit last w/e ?]

[EnglishReign]

Awesome Burns compilation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2EWEfQML9k

Haven't seen this at 10 for England, for a while!

[andyi]

If you take the Median for all the points bands in the poll and 25 for the 21+ band, then the average result for all the 41 votes is:

The All blacks by 10.8 points.

Sounds pretty reasonable to me. will be interesting to see how close the Posters on here are to the actual margin.

I'd take it as I'm on England with +16

[gregortree]

Stewart Barnes call Burns 'brilliant' !

[mystiroakey]

handicap is 16-- most relaistic posters are going for 10-15.. so I think that is great value..

[Bathman_in_London]

Barnes is a family friend of Burns' of course...


A 10-12 point gap sounds about right. A try either side of half time for NZ and then they take their foot off the pedal is my bet.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

I may have a penny on the handicap. Thats reasonable value, especially if they have raw chicken and cold rice as the breakfast menu

[beshocked]

What is New Zealand's away kit?

Maybe we could wear black and force the Kiwis to play in another kit?

[andyi]

The All blacks owe me one.

I backed Italy with +30.5 near half time, with the match still close and thought I was looking good at 65/70mins, then the AB's went crazy in the last 10 mins and ended up winning by 32!!!

Hope England keep plugging away if they are down by 2 scores with 10 to go and if Robshaw want to kick at goal to keep the margin down he'll get a bloody big pat on the back from me

[Scrumpy]

The best England can hope for is to keep it tight and hope that NZ start to suffer in the last 20mins due to their bug, but isn't it sad to think that our only chance of beating them is down to them being unwell.

[beshocked]

The best England can hope for is to keep it tight and hope that NZ start to suffer in the last 20mins due to their bug, but isn't it sad to think that our only chance of beating them is down to them being unwell.

I think a more realistic hope is that a New Zealander gets sent off though that would require the ref to actually see the incident and give a red card instead of leaving it to the citing commissioner.

[bluestonevedder]

Awesome Burns compilation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2EWEfQML9k

Haven't seen this at 10 for England, for a while!

Great compilation. He really does run beautifully with the ball in hand. His decision making is also very very good for a man his age. Looking forward to seeing him off the bench this weekend.

[Geordie]

Oh come on...even an All Black team with a dodgy tummy is gonna be too much for us....

[Geordie]

Regarding Burns

I think we knew he was quite special with his running, skills etc...but what has maybe enhanced his England calls is that this season he seems to have seriously developed his game management skills...knowing when to run (and take risks) and when to play the territory game. And his territorial and goal kicking game has been top class.

[EnglishReign]

Awesome Burns compilation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2EWEfQML9k

Haven't seen this at 10 for England, for a while!

Great compilation. He really does run beautifully with the ball in hand. His decision making is also very very good for a man his age. Looking forward to seeing him off the bench this weekend.

Reminds me of Tait in the way he glides past players without looking like he's running particularly fast. Freddie burns.

[mystiroakey]

BELIEVE!

not long to go

[Morgannwg]

But you gotta have faith, f-faith, f-faith! I gotta have.... faith!

[mystiroakey]

[Taylorman]

Last match of the year...

Reminds me of the song..."End of the road"... sung by ummm...thats right...Boyz II Men.

...........

[mystiroakey]

abit cocky there mate. When you lose, i hope you dont use the excuse that your boys were ill!

[Taylorman]

I promise mysti...If they lose this there'll be plenty of other excuses lining up in front of that lame one...

Its not really cocky, the sides are just way too one sided. It'll need a Brisbane performance by the ABs for England to even come close- and the ABs have just had that...

Based on whats in front of me, I expect a valiant England effort but the ABs havnt fended off every single challenge since day one of the world cup last year to lose this one. They would have lost before now.

Even if England won now it actually wouldnt be logical. Something would have to go very wrong. Yes hat could happen, and it does. Just cant see it going close to that.

Nothing against England and they've done ok so far, but this is a bridge too far.

There... my necks on the block and I full expect to see this in neon lights should we get wopped tomorrow!

Good luck Mysti, if they get there it'll be a good day for England rugby and I'll be the first (if I can get a word in) to congratulate them...

[mystiroakey]

Whats it like being a fan of a team that never loses!!

[Taylorman]

ps...and I dont like sitting on the fence...I like to call it as I see it so its just being honest.

Whether other Kiwis on this site admit it or not, we aren't as emotionally invested in this match as much as England fans will be- because the prize is much higher if England win...massive.

If we win everyone will go "Well that was expected" and carry on.

Its like when we play Oz in League. We're all up for another upset and when it doesnt happen we all crawl away in the usual acceptance.

When we win we're in the ozzie faces for he next decade...and fare enough...so will England be if they get up for this- especially this young side.

[Taylorman]

Whats it like being a fan of a team that never loses!!

'Lucky' is the best word to describe it. Very, very lucky and very, very proud.

[mystiroakey]

if i was a kiwi- i would probally be even more assured of a victory!

But you say your not emotionally invested- well the fact is us england fans wont be gutted with a loss.. But it will hurt you lot massive!! so its the same the other way round!

so i have a feeling that if its close you lot will be just as emotionally invested!!

[Taylorman]

Yes at he time, near the end we'll be hugely invested, but before the game we cant afford to be on edge every time we play a top side. We would be a mess. I think part of it is we have a much bigger investment under the hood in the right places. Infrastructure, coaching, a niche in the sport that doesnt get hit by politics, the good old USA not playing it, football as your lot do.

Many things. So before we go on the field we know half the job is done.

Other sides tend to run on hoping that despite having all the issues, rotten infrastructure, having selected the wrong players etc they can still get up for this one...! This time!

So much is invested on the field when probably not enough is done off it to warrant it.

Dont get me wrong. Im getting nervous as we near it. But if I were English I'd be really really nervous, and excited and worried and near freaking out - all at the same time.

[Taylorman]

See now you've got me all nervous now Mysti...theres something about playing England that gets me. They always do better than we think they will. And even when we win we dont seem to do it with 'satisfaction'.

Other than a couple of one sided ones the AB English matches are usually fairly close on the actual scoreboard, despite the press being hard on England most of the time.

They havnt played us for a while so all they can do is draw comparisons with how theyve done against the same teams. That can be dangerous, as the ABs will know how to better expose the inexperience of this side, whereas other sides- Oz and SA spend a lot of the time getting their own game together.

[mystiroakey]

Do you think it would hurt harder losing to england than any other toppish team..

I know you probally feel that a game in SA or Aus may be harder- but what would hurt more!!

[Taylorman]

Actually I agree with this...England are the hardest to take (I just dont think they will this time thats all.) have a read...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/8023466/English-are-ABs-favourite-team-to-beat-says-McCaw

[Taylorman]

If I had to be honest I have probably got more satisfaction beating South Africa but losing to England is harder than losing to either SA or Oz so I know what McCaw means, and I dont know if that makes sense... still working on it...

[mystiroakey]

good read.

tbh i cant say we cant win this- its to close to match day-I am like an evangalistic nut that believes..

[mystiroakey]

No I totally understand what your saying- losing to engalnd hurts more, but beating SA give you more pleasure. but then SA are the better team so it actually would make sense in that sense anyway

[Taylorman]

good on you...so you should be... all the best too. Have to admit theres a few names in that side I dont know. Be good to see them take to the ABs like the wind. Playing the % trick just wont do it.

Good luck England!

[maestegmafia]

Will Greenwood on All Black Myths

1.

Belief New Zealand run the ball from everywhere
Verdict Fiction

New Zealand are a team built on myths. Their history, their shirt, their invincibility. It all adds up, and it can overwhelm opponents. But just like any good fairytale, as England will discover, the truth is a mix of fact and fiction.
The All Blacks will happily kick the leather off the ball when they gain possession in their own half today. In this situation, they don’t attack from line-outs or scrums. They use them as plays to get the ball, to set it up, and then hoof it. They know that if they play the averages a chance will come, be it a try, a penalty or a half-break and a significant move towards the try line.
Once the ball has been kicked, they send a midfield press or strong kick-chase, with a sweeper behind. They also leave a lot of players out of the chasing line, inviting a team to counterattack. Come and take us on, they say, and if you are foolish enough to do so, you run into a black wall, full strength or not.
Should the opposition decide to kick the ball back, then there will be at least four All Blacks waiting for it. They will look to run with it, but if it is not on, then they are very happy to kick it back. They are patient because they know that eventually a gap will appear or a kick will be miscued and then they will attack.

2.
Belief Dan Carter is the key difference
Verdict Fact, especially against England

Carter has more time on the ball than any man I have ever seen. ‘Get Carter’ has been the message on changing-room walls for a decade. Other than his body letting him down at the 2007 and 2011 World Cups no one has ever really bothered him. England will need to neutralise him because against them he has a record of played nine, won nine, with 167 points at an average of 18.56 per game. Jaw-dropping stuff.

3.
Belief They run thousands of brilliant moves that have you grasping at thin air
Verdict Fiction

They might run the odd set-piece move, using some decoys and trying to get Julian Savea up the middle through a splintered defence. But theirs is no Australian play book. From a good platform they just set off at their opponents. They run quickly and straight, trusting their passing and that gaps will open up.
If the opposition push off the first passer, then Carter or Aaron Cruden usually coasts through and links up with runners the other side of the gain line. If that does not work, they bring Ma’a Nonu in as the battering ram, and look to run off him.
But these are not complex moves that rely on long passes. True, Nonu has improved his pass, but by and large the offloads are quick and short, and more often than not the damage has been done by Carter or Cruden. In the Rugby Championship, the All Blacks averaged 139.7 passes a game, with 10 attacking offloads – more than South Africa, Australia and Argentina. So, forget super-complex, triple-salko three-quarter moves. All Black inside centres, ever since the days of Frank Bunce, just run great angles at high speed and then they play off that.

4.
Belief They look for seven points rather than three
Verdict Fiction

They never take seven-point gambles on a penalty when there are three on offer. They apply pressure everywhere and nowhere more than the scoreboard. They keep it ticking over. It forces the opponents to keep up, and to change their game plan. If it leads the opponents to attack more, then there are more chances for a turnover. Early three-pointers are as good as a try for the All Blacks. It helps that their kickers, Carter and Cruden, are on fire.
Belief They are the most naturally gifted ball-handlers around
Verdict Fact, up to a point
Talent only gets you so far. The All Blacks work on being the best. Every single player is comfortable on the ball. No one panics and heads for unnecessary contact. Props do not fear wide open space. During the Rugby Championship, in carries (95.7 on average per game), in metres made (423.5), in clean breaks (7.5) and in defenders beaten (16.8), the All Blacks topped the tables. Add that to their passing and offload figures and you can see why they are such a potent attacking force.
What I like about them, however, is that they also understand their weaknesses. If they are slow, they look to pass to the faster players; if they have to take contact, they look for someone lumpy. They all see themselves as link men. That is why they so rarely butcher chances. As a team they see space and shift to attack it together. The ball moves under control, and with purpose. It is harder than it sounds — just look at how many international teams struggle to do it. And importantly, they maintain depth, not putting pressure on the ball handler, giving him a nice big target.

5.
Belief They destroy and commit to every breakdown
Verdict Fiction

The All Blacks are happy to let their opponents have the ball if they cannot compete for it. Have a look at the last Rugby Championship again. New Zealand averaged 15.22 minutes with the ball in their possession during a match. That was third out of the four teams, ahead of Argentina, but a minute behind Australia, who retained the ball the most.
The key to New Zealand’s ability at the breakdown is that they have control and structure. The first All Black in has to make as much of a nuisance of himself as possible. The rest of the approaching players do not take their eyes off the ruck, watching, analysing. On their own ball, they compute at lightning speed; what is the threat, am I needed, can I be secondary runner, is there a chance of a turnover? The key is that if they commit they commit 100 per cent either to protect their ball or force the opposition back. This is vital because it all but stops the slow ball that England often manage to create. And it also gives them turnovers, which is where they are at their most dangerous.
In terms of breakdown legality they test the referee, accepting that they might get pinged if they want to find out where the limits are.

6.
Belief New Zealand score tries quickly
Verdict Fact

The All Blacks hit you hard and fast on the turnover. They wait and pounce, and often score two tries in quick succession. However, they are also experts at attacking from first-, second- or third-phase ball, and this is a huge strength. It is the wham that allows the bam and thank you, ma’am. They scored nine tries from first-phase ball in the Rugby Championship. This compares with seven by South Africa, three by Argentina and one by Australia.
When you look at second- and third-phase ball, the figures are even more startling. New Zealand scored six tries, South Africa two, Argentina one and Australia none. But it is New Zealand’s ability to score straight up that causes teams so many problems. It puts opponents on the defensive, it can cause rivals to ship points just after scoring some of their own and it makes the less confident teams second guess their own strengths and try things that they should not. And, most importantly, it allows New Zealand to relieve any pressure they find themselves under.

7.
Belief The All Blacks dominate the set-piece
Verdict Fiction

They are strong here but they are not the best scrum or line-out side in world rugby. They do not dominate you at set-piece time, and were bettered by both Australia and Argentina in the scrum during the Rugby Championship. In terms of the line-out, they were stronger, but again were second best to South Africa. What sets the All Blacks apart is their understanding of what they need to achieve from the set-piece.
It is a launch pad for their attacking plays, and as such does not need to be perfect. It needs to be functional. They also make up for their limitations by varying their calls and taking some of the opposition’s strength away by keeping them guessing. This is an area where England will need to attack and is somewhere they have a chance of making inroads.
So what does this tell us? They are not a perfect team, and they are beatable. But it is the toughest challenge teams face in modern rugby. If Sonny Bill Williams was in the team, then I think the current All Blacks would the greatest side that I have ever seen play Test rugby. And they have achieved this by not doing anything weird or extraordinary. Their game plan is one of not making mistakes and being patient. It is a lesson England would do well to learn.

[emack2]

Today is crunch time end of a long year for the All Blacks they still have the hunger but can they go one last time.?
The Novo virus may effect them in the last quarter usually they can go the full 80 but now.Since Romano was one of the worst hit his benching is probably explained.
Every one is saying England have no chance on form,that makes them dangerous nothing to lose.
Every one is the way to win is bully them upfront easy said it`s been tried by better sides than England without result.
Parity up front is all any side can ask and the ABs have the BEST Defence and Counter Attack in the game.
England`s best chance is to try and play an expansive game without mistakes and take any points on offer.Robshaw has taken a lot of stick recently BUT a kick to the corner.DOES`nt automatically mean a try this AB side defends the Maul better than any in the world.
Win the game BEFORE the last 5 minutes then hold on keep the scoreboard ticking.
Playing kicking,pressure,territory means nothing to this AB side unless its converted into points.

[Taylorman]

Very good Maes. I'm not sure who the author of the myths are but its a good summary of whats fairly well known about the AB's, They do the basics well and fast. Patience is sometimes the one factor that causes issues. Sometimes we dont have it and try to rush things, spilling the ball, give away intercepts etc.

Timing and rhythm are important in any sport and rugby's no different. Patience is something other teams dont do well- they dont get to pick and choose when to go because theyre always trying to keep their head above water.

The ABs can sit and wait. Thats when they're at their most dangerous. They'll kick the lines, do the one ups, then bang, they're gone.

Very good summary though. Reading it I'd hate to be in opposition knowing that the blocks in place are real, that there are actual barriers to overcome to have a chance.

[maestegmafia]

Emack, patience is the element that all great teams, sports men have. It comes with confidence, but you rarely see confidence being built without patient game play.

If England can trust themselves to keep the ball through phase play until gaps, or numbers move in their favour they won't need to use the 13 man line out option.

[TJ1]

I see very little chance for England unless the ABs are really weakened by the squits.

NZ will score - no doubt and I do not see England with the abilities to outscore them.

[Taylorman]

I see very little chance for England unless the ABs are really weakened by the squits.

ooooh!

[emack2]

This All Black side has`nt put in acomplete performance since the Semi versus Australia RWC.Before that Nantes v france 2009 and First 3Ns game v Boks 2010 when they had a point to prove.
Don`t think to day will be a blowout but all things considered All Blacks should win.
Hope theres no cards or controversy and ABs by one point will do me pity its on Sky not BBC but you can`t have every thing.
Incidentally good luck Wales hope they get a win at last they really ARE better than there recent results.

[mystiroakey]

ohh emack emack emack!!!

[TJ1]

Of course there will be controversy
Perhaps we need a game like boycott bingo http://boycott.gdb.me/ - Is Brian Moore commentating?

"Off his feet"

"Not binding"

"squint feed"

etc etc

[Taylorman]

I have to admit I havnt watched the English side as closely as I could have. The summer tour I was keeping my eye on the boks and this time around there were so many matches. So some have mentioned a strong pack. The backs dont look strong at all which is why I think Manu will need to earn overtime if hes to come out of his intact.

Weird that in a few hours all our test rugby stops for half a year! At least the snookers on here all week.

[maestegmafia]

I have to admit I havnt watched the English side as closely as I could have. The summer tour I was keeping my eye on the boks and this time around there were so many matches. So some have mentioned a strong pack. The backs dont look strong at all which is why I think Manu will need to earn overtime if hes to come out of his intact.

Weird that in a few hours all our test rugby stops for half a year! At least the snookers on here all week.

What are you guys planning for him???

[mystiroakey]

I am a massive fan of about 10 sports.,., so i am never dry of stuff to watch!!

I couldnt handle waiting for a season to come back if i only liked one sport!! jeas

[Taylorman]

Yeah its just the ABs wont be around in black for a while. Im not really a big summer sport fan anymore. With the NZ cricket team being so hopeless last 10 years lost a bit of interest there.

Whats this guy Holt playing Higgins like Mysti?

[maestegmafia]

Im not really a big summer sport fan anymore. With the NZ cricket team being so hopeless last 10 years lost a bit of interest there.

Mate NZ look good for a serious americas Cup challenge in san fran...! Remember sailing is one of NZs most successful sports.

[mystiroakey]

Havent seen that much of him recently- however i remeber him beating higgins the last time they played- however he hasnt beaten anyone else lower than his rankings for a longish time!

I think Higgins will be out for revenge here.

stock british player in my mind.. good enough

[mystiroakey]

actually tell a lie he didnt beat him last time. holt hasnt had the best season- just about hanging on tbh

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