The Magnificent 7

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In the wake of consecutive defeats against Australia and South Africa, there has been a growing clamour from some quarters for the inclusion of a 'genuine openside' in the England team. At present the 7 jersey is worn by captain Chris Robshaw, a man who played the majority of his early Premiership career as a blindside. Less than 6 months ago, after leading England to a second place finish in the 6 Nations, and then performing ably, both as a player and captain down in South Africa, Robshaw was being lauded for both his leadership, and his work at the breakdown.

Of course South Africa had spent June playing with a huge carrying back row, and no fetcher, and with Bismarck du Plessis also missing the threat from them over the ball at the tackle area was not massive. Since then, Robshaw has faced off against Michael Hooper and Francois Louw, two proper opensides, and he has found that a more difficult proposition.

My view of Robshaw is that he is a good leader, who the players respect, but he is a 6, and at best a 6 and half. I do not think he has made the correct calls 100% of the time in the last two matches, but I also don't believe that those calls were the main reason for the defeats. In both games England's half backs were poor and failed to control the game. Part of this however stemmed from the breakdown, and a lack of quick ball being available, which invariably meant that our backs had little chance once the ball did end up in their hands.

So what, or possibly who is the answer to this issue, and the man who can help to spark the attacking threat within the England team. Looking through the available options, it appears to me that there are potentially 7 pretenders to the crown, and they are listed below.

Club	Name	DoB	Age	Height	Weight	Caps
	Chris Robshaw	4th June 1986	26	6'2"	17st 4lbs	11
	Steffon Armitage	20th September 1985	27	5'9"	16st 3lbs	5
	David Seymour	27th September 1984	28	5'11"	15st 2lbs	0
	Andy Saull	27th September 1988	24	6'1"	16st 3lbs	0
	Will Fraser	29th October 1989	23	6'2"	14st 2lbs	0
	Jamie Gibson	27th September 1990	22	6'5"	16st 12lbs	0
	Luke Wallace	2nd October 1990	22	6'1"	16st	0
	Matt Kvesic	14th April 1992	20	6'1"	16st 5lbs	0

Looking at them in turn, Steffon Armitage is clearly the standout. In fine form since his transfer to Toulon he has won countless awards and is arguably the form openside in the northern hemisphere. Strong over the ball, his breakdown work is exceptional, and he also brings a huge work rate, and great ball carrying. The official problem however according to the RFU and Stuart Lancaster is that he plays in France and would not be available for training camps, although Lancaster's comments about his fitness and that he plays in a dominant pack give rise to the suspicion that he simply does not fancy him at international level. At present Lancaster does not have to show his hand when it comes to Armitage, and only a move home is likely to force the head coach to nail his colours to the mast.

Beyond Armitage there is not really a standout candidate, but there is a pack of players, all of whom may feel they could or should be in with a shot at some point in the immediate future. The eldest is Sale Shark's David Seymour, who at 28 may have missed the boat. A consistent performer, who wouldn't let anyone down, there may be question marks about his size at international level, as well as whether or not he has that little bit of x factor that you need to succeed at the very top.

Then there are the Saracens duo of Andy Saull and Will Fraser. Saull, a couple of years ago was touted as the next big thing, and has been in and around the Saxons. Injuries, Jaques Burger, and the late emergence of Fraser have somewhat stalled his progress at Saracens, and at 24, he is the eldest of the young guns competing for the shirt. What he brings is good work at breakdown, but even better link play and energy. He needs a run at club level though in order to force his claims. That may be difficult, as Fraser has in recent times looked the better player, and rarely seems to have a poor game. Good on the deck, the question marks over him are similar to those over Seymour, and he may need a string of big performances in the Heineken Cup in order to catapult him into the reckoning.

Jamie Gibson has been in the England squad and toured South Africa in the summer, so is clearly somebody who is on Lancaster's radar. As a London Irish fan, I rate the young man highly, but I am not sure that he is actually the proper 7 that England may be looking for. He has many fine attributes, and is decent over the ball, but he is a utility back row, who long term I think could end up at number 8, where his good rugby brain may be better served.

The England captain's young Quins team mate Luke Wallace is next on my list, but he has a huge fight on his hands even for his clubs 7 jersey. An all action player, Wallace burst onto the Premiership scene during the World Cup last year and impressed with a string of performances that belied his inexperience. This season game time has been harder to come by, but he captained Quins in the LV Cup producing an astonishing MOTM performance against Bath. He has good hands and links play well, but is also excellent on the deck, and in a twitter Q & A earlier this year cited slowing down opposition ball and making ours quick as his key aims on the field. If he can get enough game time at Quins, he looks a tremendous prospect.

The youngest of the group is Matt Kvesic, Worcester Warrior's England U20 star. This young man looks very good, and gets through a good amount of breakdown work, however it seems that he doesn't always play at 7 for his club, with some appearances at 8, and if he is to be the answer to the problem on the openside, then he may need to be specializing at club level first.


So there are options, but will, or even should Stuart Lancaster select them? My own view is that Chris Robshaw is a 6, and should be competing with Tom Wood, Tom Croft and James Haskell for that jersey. Back rows are about balance, and the balance of the England one is wrong at present. For me Lancaster ought to bite the bullet and have a look at Armitage, a back row of Robshaw, Armitage and Morgan is far more balanced than what we have seen so far. There is carrying, tackling and breakdown skills, and this may give us a better chance of using our backs to hurt teams, rather than as a defensive unit.

Sadly, I suspect that I will not see that combination in England jerseys in the near future. That being the case, the next in line has to be Wallace. He has looked very good every time I have watched him play, and does not appear to be fazed by anything. Him in there with Robshaw and Morgan could be a similar unit to at Quins, where he has played well with Robshaw and Easter alongside him.

Come to think of it, Nick Easter. Isn't he English qualified?

Clearing out is most definitely the job of the whole pack thomh, and I guess our different viewpoints here are the whole nub of the debate really. What do you want from your 7?

Now if you want him as a carrier and first receiver then Robshaw is well suited and is doing a decent enough job. If you want him however to be a 'fetcher' then for me Robshaw is not that man.

My argument would be that he could act as first receiver playing from blindside and certainly can be used as a carrier from there.

Ultimately I want someone in my pack who is going to be a real nuisance over the ball at the breakdown, and my view is that both Armitage and Wallace do that better than Robshaw.

One of the tricky things in assessing Robshaw's performances is that he's sufficiently smart and versatile that he can play in a range of styles, and we don't know directly what he's been asked to do.

In the SA game, for instance, it was very noticeable in the first 20 minutes that he was standing off rucks at first receiver - which must have been a job he was asked to do.

On the other hand, there are plenty of examples of where he's done excellent work in rucks - for instance in South Africa over the summer, or the AP final (guess who got the final penalty, at the breakdown, that secured the ball for Quins and closed out the game?). Watching him at Quins, it is remarkable how many times he is the guy who produces a turnover just when it is most needed.

It's compounded by the fact that Quins are coached to play a style where players make a judgement about whether to go for it at the ruck and will commit fewer men unless a turnover is really on. I think England are aiming for something similar, but the tipping point is slightly different in international rugby and I don't think the balance of when to go for it is quite right yet.

I'd be interested to see how Armitage would go, but it won't happen. Both Lancaster and Gatland have raised concerns about how fitness is managed in France - so I think that a) it's not just a dig at Steffon and b) there's something in it. Add to that the issue of only having access in the international window, and it's too many marks against.

Be interesting to see how the other candidates develop. It does feel that Seymour might be too old, and Saull seems to have faltered a little bit. The others all seem to have potential.

I'm not sure Wallace will move or needs to - he's 22, one year out of the academy, and it would only be right to move if he could be guaranteed first choice. I'm not sure there's a club in a position to offer him that. At Quins, COS is very big on player rotation and has shown that when a player is good enough he will give them game time (e.g. rotation of Gray, Brooker and now Buchanan at hooker, Fa'asavalu and Guest at 6, Care and Dickson at 9). If Wallace can start getting regular starts at Quins, that sends a very strong message to SL.

I don't really care who does the jobs specifically. The 'traditional' roles are just that...traditional. Why does it matter if Cole (for example) gets a lot of our turnovers instead of Robshaw? What you actually what is the first person there tackles, second goes for the ball, anyone else supporters the second man in. Doesn't matter who that is. The only 'true' skill an English openside needs is at the scrum. Everything else is up for anyone to do (and we have had left/right flanker before as well.

I think you all need to remember that Neil Back is the exception, not the rule in English back rowers and even he was playing for a while before being capped.

Thunor, I completely understand that you don't care who the jobs specifically, and I think most fans would probably echo that, so long as the team is doing well and most importantly winning.

Within the team however I am 100% certain that everyone has a defined role and responsibilities, otherwise it would be impossible for a coach to assess performance, as there would be no criteria to measure it against.

Now specifically with England, it may well be that Lancaster has said to his 7 that his responsibility is not the things that you would associate with the traditional fetchers role, but instead wants him coming in at first receiver and carrying in those areas more. If that is the case, then Robshaw is doing as he is asked, and given Lancasters public defence of his captain I suspect that this is probably the case.

Perhaps Lancaster is happy that Dan Cole's ability over the ball is enough to compensate and the lions share of the responsibility for securing turnovers lies with him.

I am a traditionalist when it comes to the pack, albeit slightly tempered by the needs of the modern game, and put simplistically I want a tighthead who scrummages until he drops, an enforcer of a 4, a big ball carrying 6 and a 7 who fetches.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Thunor, I completely understand that you don't care who the jobs specifically, and I think most fans would probably echo that, so long as the team is doing well and most importantly winning.

Within the team however I am 100% certain that everyone has a defined role and responsibilities, otherwise it would be impossible for a coach to assess performance, as there would be no criteria to measure it against.

Now specifically with England, it may well be that Lancaster has said to his 7 that his responsibility is not the things that you would associate with the traditional fetchers role, but instead wants him coming in at first receiver and carrying in those areas more. If that is the case, then Robshaw is doing as he is asked, and given Lancasters public defence of his captain I suspect that this is probably the case.

Perhaps Lancaster is happy that Dan Cole's ability over the ball is enough to compensate and the lions share of the responsibility for securing turnovers lies with him.

I am a traditionalist when it comes to the pack, albeit slightly tempered by the needs of the modern game, and put simplistically I want a tighthead who scrummages until he drops, an enforcer of a 4, a big ball carrying 6 and a 7 who fetches.

Fair enough. I think that is extremely limiting as you effectively have to discount anyone who doesn't fit the traditional mold. Of course having traditional roles makes things a lot easier for replacements. You just replace them with the next best traditional player who should have basically the same skill set.

Look at Croft. Not the tradition 6 but he fits the way Leicester use their blindsides (whether this is due to Croft or went on before him I don't know). Basically a fast blindside that is generally on the wing so that he can support in rucks allowing the ball to go wider without fear of losing it in contact. Also is good at covering tackles if the ball is lost and the opposition spread it wide. Mafi fits that role really well as well and is used generally the same way. But do England have a replacement? Closest is probably Wood but after that?

So there is a definite benefit for sticking with the traditional roles.

stlowe wrote:Robshaw/Seymour/Saull/Fraser/Gibson/Wallace/Kvesic in the AP this season

Matches 7/9/4/9/7/2/9
Tries 0/0/0/0/1/0/0
Try Assists 1/0/0/0/0/0/0
Passes 42/14/2/10/6/2/14
Carries 65/32/8/24/24/6/49
Metres 71/53/11/36/79/10/207
Clean Breaks 1/0/0/0/1/0/3
Offloads 4/0/0/0/1/0/5
Defenders Beaten 5/0/1/0/0/0/15
Tackles 77/99/35/47/42/15/56
Missed Tackles 3/6/3/7/4/0/3
Penalties Conceded 2/2/2/3/10/1/9
Turnovers Conceded 2/2/3/7/6/0/6
Lineouts Won 9/2/0/0/18/2/7
Lineout Steals 2/2/0/0/1/0/1

I haven't seen him play for Worcester this season, but my overriding opinion of Kvesic from previous years and his England U20 performances was that he was a quality grafting openside with top breakdown abilities. What looks impressive in these stats is what they suggest he can also contribute carrying the ball.

The stats also show some of the reasons why Robshaw is such a quality option and has deserved his selection. First or second in pretty much every category and playing a very important role as a link man.

Kvesic is an 8 that's been playing 7 isn't he? I'm pretty sure he played most of rugby from 8. Same as Fearns. Just got moved to 7 because of other players and covers there now. As I said before, I expect most of my backrow players (if not all) to be able to fulfill the openside's ruck roles.

Glas a du wrote:I think you all need to remember that Neil Back is the exception, not the rule in English back rowers and even he was playing for a while before being capped.

I think it might be worth remembering that the Holy Trinity consisted of a 6 and two 7's, Hill was a 7 that went to 6 and Dallaglio was a 6 who went to 8, Back was, AFAIK, a 7 from birth.

It's not necessarily the numbers, it's about getting a balance, as mentioned above, England don't have a game strategy that appears to need an out and out groundhog, but maybe that's because they don't consider themselves to have one? Personally, if you don't have one, I reckon you're severely limited as to the kind of front foot game you can attempt to play.

I also consider that jibe about Back to be highly controversial, Glas.

Wasn't Dallaglio an openside originally? I seem to remember them all starting out at 7.

I don't know Thunor, he definitely played at 6 for England for a while, but I can't recall him ever being a 7.

I can't recall what I was doing the week before last though, so...

7 is a key position in any side, how you fill the position does tend to open up or shut down different attacking options, if they all started out at 7, I'd say that would explain a lot. It's definitely the thinkers shirt in the back row.

I'll think you'll find back rowers are automatons, 3 is the thinking man's shirt.

3, you did write 3, you actually put 3.

I think you'll find the average thought going through a 3's mind is comparable with "years of age"; "I think I want pee-pee" is hardly a stretcher.

We hide it well, I agree.

HammerofThunor wrote:Kvesic is an 8 that's been playing 7 isn't he? I'm pretty sure he played most of rugby from 8. Same as Fearns. Just got moved to 7 because of other players and covers there now. As I said before, I expect most of my backrow players (if not all) to be able to fulfill the openside's ruck roles.

He played 8 more when he was younger (with Vunipola often on the flank in England U18 sides), since 2010 and his senior career kicked off at Worcester the overwhelming majority of his appearances have been at 7 and he played almost exclusively on the flanks for England U20 sides over 2 years. Richard Hill has certainly said he considers him an openside. He played 8 a number of times at the beginning of this season with Horstmann having left Worcester the season before and them looking to establish the new 8 Taulava signed from Rotherham over the summer, but his last 5 games have been at openside.

For me Kvesic is the most exciting prospect at 7 coming through the ranks for the future, with Wallace not too far behind. It's a shame Quins v Warriors isn't being televised tomorrow as I'd very much like to see them go head to head on the back of Warriors beating Sarries and Quins losing to Bath last weekend (where Kvesic, Wallace, Mercer, Saull & Fraser all featured at 7).

Kvesic just put in a very good shift at openside in Warriors win over an unusually full strength European away Perpignan, a MOTM performance dealing with Perpignan's monsters on the charge and at the breakdown.

mbernz wrote:Kvesic just put in a very good shift at openside in Warriors win over an unusually full strength European away Perpignan, a MOTM performance dealing with Perpignan's monsters on the charge and at the breakdown.

Good good. Is it Abbott who is 1st choice? I do like my backrow to be able to play around the back row. Whether he settles at 7 or not he'll always have these skills.

Yeah i read the report...looks like Kvesic was very good indeed. Is he still only 20?

Do you think he could make the EPS? I dont think he will...Saxons though.

I reckon he has to be in the Saxons, and I'd be tempted to throw in Wallace too. Start nurturing some decent ball poachers, and expose them stradily to better opposition.

What's happened to Abbott at Worcester? He was another cracking little 7, but has he been ousted by Kvesic?

Vedder hes already in the Saxons....just wondered if Lancs might fancy the promotion though i guess he can do that should injuries come about....id fancy him to go on the Argentina tour regardless...

Of course he is, sorry. Hadn't had my morning coffee. I'd like to see Wallace in there too, and as you said, get both of them on the plane to Argentina.

Saxons is pretty much dead now.

I imagine one of our backrow at least will be on the Lions tour. Maybe 2. Can't see it being more than that with the competition around at the moment. Will we be taking a large squad to Argentina? If so then they might both get on. Otherwise I doubt it.

HammerofThunor wrote:Wasn't Dallaglio an openside originally? I seem to remember them all starting out at 7.

That's correct Wasps' 'Holy Trinty' at the time was 6- Dallaglio, 7
- Volley, and 8 - Worsley. Then Dallaglio and Worsley swapped places as Worsley could use his tackling ability more at 6.

And Dally was part of the 7's team than won the "firstish" 7's world cup with Rodber etc...

Yes, Kvesic is still only 20.

Abbott is behind Kvesic now, he had a hamstring injury preseason, but has been available for most of it and has only played 3 games, starting just 2 (1 of which was an LV), both of those were part of what seems to be the 2nd choice backrow (with de Carpentier & Cowan). Sam Betty looks to be the preferred bench option for bigger games.

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Wasn't Dallaglio an openside originally? I seem to remember them all starting out at 7.

That's correct Wasps' 'Holy Trinty' at the time was 6- Dallaglio, 7
- Volley, and 8 - Worsley. Then Dallaglio and Worsley swapped places as Worsley could use his tackling ability more at 6.

I don't mean to be stupid but you say that's correct and then seem to tell I'm wrong. I said Dallaglio started as an openside but you have him at blindside.