Who should be England's long term partner in the centre with Manu and why isn't he being blooded now?

First topic message reminder :

Barritt reminds me a bit of Henson in the way he just shifts the ball on, often to a player with less space than he was in. He rarely looks for space and therefore adds little in attack but is solid in defence.

I know Hipkiss didn't wow in the England shirt but could he along side Manu? Is 36 ready and would he complement Manu? Is Barkely too old?

This England team show great promise across the park but I feel the answer to better execution is surely a midfield with more threat, meaning defences must spread themselves which will obviously allow Manu more space. I think this is the vital last piece of the jigsaw but who is it?

Should have been blooded 15-20 years ago. Meaning they should have been taught how to catch, pass and put a player into space properly as a child. It's why England have had donkeys since Will Greenwood.

Are you calling Stuart Abbot a donkey?

yappysnap wrote:The odd thing is seeing guys like Youngs, Marler, Robshaw etc doing that. They NEVER do that for their clubs. So why in an Eng shirt?

I think a lot of it is that they are still coming to terms with the increased speed and physicality of test rugby. All 3 have to concentrate so much more on getting the basics right - especially for Marler and Youngs at scrum time.

We slate the England coaches for "failing" to allow players to replicate their club form - but it is a big step up. I am sure we can all think of a shed load of players who have looked really good at club level yet seem a shadow at international. To really make the step up at least one facet of your game needs to be world class - and you need time.

Also experience around you makes a difference. How much easier was it for Wilkinson to fit into the @England team when he had British Lions inside and outside him to help him fit in. Owen Farrell started playing at 10 for England with Lee Dickson inside and Barritt outside - both newcomers.

Hands up if you used to slate the guys who were keeping them out of the team for doing the same thing.....

Wasn't he a playing at the same time as Greenwood and b South African?

LondonTiger wrote:

yappysnap wrote:The odd thing is seeing guys like Youngs, Marler, Robshaw etc doing that. They NEVER do that for their clubs. So why in an Eng shirt?

I think a lot of it is that they are still coming to terms with the increased speed and physicality of test rugby. All 3 have to concentrate so much more on getting the basics right - especially for Marler and Youngs at scrum time.

We slate the England coaches for "failing" to allow players to replicate their club form - but it is a big step up. I am sure we can all think of a shed load of players who have looked really good at club level yet seem a shadow at international. To really make the step up at least one facet of your game needs to be world class - and you need time.

Also experience around you makes a difference. How much easier was it for Wilkinson to fit into the @England team when he had British Lions inside and outside him to help him fit in. Owen Farrell started playing at 10 for England with Lee Dickson inside and Barritt outside - both newcomers.

While you may have a point in some respects, for the back row especially I would have thought carrying well would be a pretty high priority for them? If Youngs and Marler are focussing on the scrum fine, but the back row are there to hit rucks hard and take the ball forward at pace. Those are the 2 major roles - they should focus on them.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Hands up if you used to slate the guys who were keeping them out of the team for doing the same thing.....

Maybe...!

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Hands up if you used to slate the guys who were keeping them out of the team for doing the same thing.....

Aye, but to be fair, they are not doing it as much as the guys used to when it was ruck, stop, think, form a "pod", take ball in slowly, make no yards and flop to the ground, repeat.

Now it's more ruck, medium to quick ball available, get in the way of the ten and force the 9 to pass to you, take the ball in slowly and make 0.5 yards repeat.

So, you know, that's sort of an improvement right?!

true, the WW1 style slow walk across no mans land followed by falling over infront of the nearest defender to present the ball for 6 forwards to sit on has gone to some extent.

Twelvetrees is the future, he's big, he tackles, he has a big boot, can pass and has a cool name, we need to give the lad some experience. Manu tuilagi has a phenomenal try scoring record in a horrendously uncreative backline. I see him like a young mike tindall on steroids thats quicker, we just need to get a creative greenwood inside him (36) to give the lump some space.

Great centre pairings often have one bludgeon and one rapier, jauzion and basteraux, nonu and smith, mauger and umaga, umaga and smith, greenwood and tindall, Roberts and o'driscoll etc etc

At the moment we have one girt big bludgeon and one defense unit, at least we are not at the tindall and noon level of things !!

screamingaddabs wrote:
Now it's more ruck, medium to quick ball available, get in the way of the ten and force the 9 to pass to you, take the ball in slowly and make 0.5 yards repeat.

So, you know, that's sort of an improvement right?!

No that happened a few times on Saturday. Barnes slagged off Youngs and Care - but what the hell are they supposed to do when a big lump is stood in the way.

LondonTiger wrote:

screamingaddabs wrote:
Now it's more ruck, medium to quick ball available, get in the way of the ten and force the 9 to pass to you, take the ball in slowly and make 0.5 yards repeat.

So, you know, that's sort of an improvement right?!

No that happened a few times on Saturday. Barnes slagged off Youngs and Care - but what the hell are they supposed to do when a big lump is stood in the way.

That's what I'm saying. They do this now, not what they used to. It could be seen as a mild improvement from fecking terrible to not very good.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:true, the WW1 style slow walk across no mans land followed by falling over infront of the nearest defender to present the ball for 6 forwards to sit on has gone to some extent.

I do wonder though if we have replaced it with a Dad's Army style. The chosen scrum half is Corporal Jones screaming "Don't Panic" while the skipper is of course Private Pike.

screamingaddabs wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

screamingaddabs wrote:
Now it's more ruck, medium to quick ball available, get in the way of the ten and force the 9 to pass to you, take the ball in slowly and make 0.5 yards repeat.

So, you know, that's sort of an improvement right?!

No that happened a few times on Saturday. Barnes slagged off Youngs and Care - but what the hell are they supposed to do when a big lump is stood in the way.

That's what I'm saying. They do this now, not what they used to. It could be seen as a mild improvement from fecking terrible to not very good.

sorr that was a typo. Missing out the "w" turned "Now that happened" into "No that etc"

LT - Ah, that makes a lot more sense!

What about Jeremy Guscott? Mind you he can't be blooded now to play for England until his BBC commentary career has finished.

I dunno theres plenty of welsh/french/kiwi/englishmen whod be quite happy to "blood" him

3 good Glos players there Yappy..........
will HQ go along with that ?

Poopie I didn't realise that! Well that scuppers that team then.

Having not seen Twelvetrees play very often, you guys are making him out to be some sort of demi God at inside centre can't wait for him to get a shot with England

bambamwillis wrote:Having not seen Twelvetrees play very often, you guys are making him out to be some sort of demi God at inside centre can't wait for him to get a shot with England

You should've heard the sprays fans after he took them apart on his debut. That was 3 years ago now....the general assumption is that he should actually be ready for international rugby now. The English Henson, big lad with a stupid haircut, tons of power and the ability to kick penalties from his own half. In theory he's the well balanced solution England have needed for years.
Course after his first cap he'll be soley responsible for the demise of western civilization. But just remember the Welsh hoped him first

screamingaddabs wrote:Is it actually as long ago as Greenwood that we had a half decent 12?

I've been trying to think of a good one:

Flutey - meh, good on his day
Hape - pants
Arinle - Whooops!
Farrell - temporary
Barritt - Not quite good enough
Barkley - Flakey and injured
???

who else? My memory is poor!

Stuart Abbott was a cracking 12 that looked a natural successor to Greenwood. He was desperately unlucky for a series of injuries to prevent him getting more caps and end his career far too early.