England EPS changes for the 6N

So with England's final game of the AI's looming on Saturday I thought it'd be interesting to see who we think should go and who should come into the EPS for the 6N. Prior to the camps leading up to the 6N Lancaster can make permanent changes rather than injury replacements to the squad and many seem to be expecting several players to come in already.

My EPS selection;

Loosehead - Corbisiero, Marler

Hooker - Hartley, Youngs (I feel for Webber given the timing of his injury but Youngs has serious potential and deserves the reserve spot IMO)

Tighthead - Cole, Wilson

Lock - Parling, Launchberry, Lawes, Palmer

Blindside - Wood, Croft, Haskell

Openside - Robshaw, Armitage

No 8 - Morgan, Waldrom (no other real options throwing their hands up at the moment)

Scrum half - Youngs, Care, Dickson

Fly half - Flood, Burns

Inside Centre - Twelvetrees, Barritt, Allen

Outside Centre - Tuilagi, Joseph

Wing - Ashton, Monye, Johnny May

Full Back - Foden, Brown (Feels harsh dropping Goode as he hasn't done to much wrong but Foden is still first choice and I rate Brown highly)

So changes from the current first choice EPS as far as I can see are: Youngs for Webber, Launchberry for Botha, Haskell for Johnson, Armitage for Dowson, Burns for Farrell, Twelvetrees for Turner-Hall and Johnny May for Sharples.

From this squad my starting XV would be:

1.Corbs
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Parling
5.Launchberry
6.Wood
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan

9.Youngs
10.Burns

11.Johnny May (Pace, good hands, smart player, good under the high ball, much better in defense than Wade or Sharples - can't really find a reason not to pick him compared to the other options!)
12.Twelvetrees
13.Tuilagi
14.Ashton/Monye (Ashton desperately needs to find form if he wants to keep his place)
15.Foden

16.Youngs 17.Marler 18.Wilson 19.Lawes 20.Croft 21.Care 22.Flood 23.Joseph

Simple logic behind most of the changes really. If England are going to play a more attacking game then we need to pick our best players players for that game plan.

Burns for Farrell is a given for me now. I find it so frustrating watching England attack at the moment as it is often so predictable. Whether it be a crash ball with no other options or dummy runners or Ashton running an inside line and whoever's passing to him staring at Ashton the entire play rather than playing with their heads up looking for other options to draw the defence it's often very predictable. A big part of this problem IMO is the distributor whether it be Flood,Farrell,Barritt or Goode not offering much of a threat themselves. This is what Burns immediately does with his pace, he draws defenders and makes space for whatever else he's got planned.

With Twelvetrees everyone talks about his big passing game (which I do think could work wonders giving Tuilagi,Morgan,Foden and our wingers a better chance to attack) but for me what I love is his kicking game. All AI's we have seen pretty poor kicking from Youngs,Care,Flood and Farrell in open play when they don't have other options. Twelvetrees huge boot offers that other kicking option. His kicking game will take pressure of the half-backs causing less unnecessary and poor kicking.

In the forwards I do feel for Tom Johnson as personally I like him as a player, I think he did well in SA, didn't do as badly against Oz as many made out and plays well for Exeter week in week out. Unfortunately I just think he offers a very similar option to Wood and an extent Croft; the difference is I rate Croft and Wood as better players than TJ - simple as that really!

Launchberry definitely needs to come in and Botha would be my first choice to drop out; although Palmer is under real pressure at the moment. Launchberry just offers carrying and grunt work that we've been missing for a while now so he can't be ignored.

Whilst Tom Youngs throwing needs to improve he's shown more than enough to deserve a place in the EPS full time IMO hence he comes in for Webber.

Armitage is a selection I make reluctantly as he made his own bed by not getting release clauses in his contract for as many camps/games as a lot of players in France have. Bottom line however is he offers something no other player we have does in terms of his carrying and he's also very strong over the ball. His form in France is at least enough to earn a place in the squad IMO.

Obviously plenty will change in terms of form/fitness by the time the squads picked but that's my thoughts at the moment!

Alex Goode is one of the classiest players in the England backline. He's showed a lot of skill for England already and adds a whole different dimension to he backline. Brown is just not close at international level and I think Goode is now more integral to this team than Foden was to others previously. He will not be dropped and certainly shouldn't.

Not sure on Croft's return until he's actually played a few games. Will need to see that nasty neck injury has effected him.

Not wholly sure what form May has shown to earn a call up either. Now Christian Wade there's a classy winger in great form.

Why do we need 3 Inside centres,makes the squad unbalanced.get rid of Allen for farell and swap monye(his time has passed,same for strettle)for goode.I think SL sees fodens future onyhe wing.In the forwards I would like to see the return of Louis deacon,he was really starting to be a top player before his injury.I like tom palmer but think he is now on the way down unfortunately.maybe a 3rd hooker as well,but webber and brooker both still out so probably best to wait till the argie tour in June.

I can see the locks being Parling, Launchbury, Lawes and Palmer.
SL will want the mobility that all 4 of these players bring.
I can't see him going for Deacon...
However, Palmer and Deacon are 33 and 32 respectively, so maybe someone younger will be brought in.

I've not seen anything from Waldrom in an England shirt to make me think he should be in the EPS, but unfortunately, there aren't many other options.
Obviously, Morgan will be in and Haskell will be the utility back row, but another specialist 8 is required and I'm not sure who that can be.
Billy V is about as powerful as they come, and his fitness is improving all the time, however there are still a few deficiencies with his game that a bit more experience will hopefully sort out
Maybe Waldrom stays in due to the lack of other options.... but that hasn't changed in the last 18 months.

I don't know what to suggest about the 9's.
It would just be nice to see both Care and Youngs playing consistently well... actually, I'd settle for seeing one of them playing consistently well.
We've got a lot of young exciting 9's, however, none seem to be head and shoulders above the rest.


I'll leave centre and fly half alone as I just keep going round in circles when trying to decide on those.


I'd like to see Wade in the squad, however I'm not sure it really matters too much until we start creating more broken field opportunities.
We rarely seem to trouble defences and therefore our wingers are usually very well contained so they rarely stand out regardless of who is playing there.



The biggest problem is that while there are people that can be taken out and replaced, there aren't exactly many players in the Prem screaming to be called up in their place.

Remember that Lancaster is still limited to just 6 permanent, non-injury changes to the real EPS squad:

Marler, Cobisiero, Cole, Wilson
Hartley, Webber
Parling, Lawes, Palmer, Botha
Croft, Johnson, Robshaw, Wood, dowson, Morgan, Waldrom

Care, Youngs, Dickson
Flood, Farrell
Barritt, Allen, Turner-Hall, Tuilagi, joseph
Ashton, Sharples
Foden, Goode, Brown


Depending on injury status, he can replace Webber and Croft free of charge so to speak. After that he is limited to just 6 changes.

There is no point wasting a spot on Armitage as he still would only be available for the official release periods. You canget the same access without adding him.

I would drop Allen, JTH, Botha and Dowson - replacing them with Burns, 36, Lanchbury and Haskell. I reckon most would bring those four in.
The real debate is on whether to make the two final changes and if so where. Personally I feel wing looks weak and would love some real pace in the squad. this may mean dropping one of the full backs.

For me the 6 permanent allowed changes would be...

Out: Botha, Palmer, Dowson, Farrell, Allen, Turner-Hall

In: Launchbury, Kitchener, Fearns/Haskell, Burns, Twelvetrees, Wade

The players i would like to see in the EPS next time is. Freddie Burns, Tom Biggs, Billy Twelvetrees. Garvey (dont know is first name.)

Good options King_Carlos. I'm sure i'll be strung up for this but the only real change i'd make is bring in Farrell for Allen.

I believe he does have a place in the England squad, his distribution, although not lighting the world on fire is getting better, ice in his veins, can cover 10 & 12 and he's a lump of a lad that is fearless in the tackle.

Do we really need 3 In-half's? I'd rather take 2/3 (arguements to ensue ) and have Goode in as well as Brown.

Also wouldn't mind seeing Wade in for May, he is going to need a run out sooner rather than later i feel.

Sarmaige would be a dubious selection for the 6N. He wont be available for all the traning sessions and his club will play him on the rest weekends just to be dicks.
He needs to get his contract sorted out.

Despite results over the last few games I dont think many peopel see the need for radical changes to the squad, weve had that already. Time for Lancaster to start working out how to make these guys play and get them that expericne.

Id be surprised if the actual squad for the 6Ns is significantly diffwerent (pending injury) to the one listed

LondonTiger wrote:Remember that Lancaster is still limited to just 6 permanent, non-injury changes to the real EPS squad:

Marler, Cobisiero, Cole, Wilson
Hartley, Webber
Parling, Lawes, Palmer, Botha
Croft, Johnson, Robshaw, Wood, dowson, Morgan, Waldrom

Care, Youngs, Dickson
Flood, Farrell
Barritt, Allen, Turner-Hall, Tuilagi, joseph
Ashton, Sharples
Foden, Goode, Brown


Depending on injury status, he can replace Webber and Croft free of charge so to speak. After that he is limited to just 6 changes.

There is no point wasting a spot on Armitage as he still would only be available for the official release periods. You canget the same access without adding him.

I would drop Allen, JTH, Botha and Dowson - replacing them with Burns, 36, Lanchbury and Haskell. I reckon most would bring those four in.
The real debate is on whether to make the two final changes and if so where. Personally I feel wing looks weak and would love some real pace in the squad. this may mean dropping one of the full backs.

Agree with you LT, Armitage is a waste of a pick as he falls outside the EPS agreement although contacting Toulon for some negotiation would be worthwhile.

I also agree with your 4 changes as most people do. I think having three 12's and only 2 tens in the original Eps was a mistake.

I don't agree with all the Farrell/flood bashing (not by you LT). The attacking performance of a team does not come solely down to the 10,12 and 13. You need go forward ball, carrying options, variety, consistent performance at the breakdown and much much more. Our failings are not the sole responsibility of the midfield. So while I agree burns does deserve a call up, he alone (or with twelvetrees, who equally should be in the squad) will not turn us into an amazing attacking force overnight. It is going to take time and the coaches need to install attacking skills and mindsets into the whole squad over a period of time. Thus, the management team need to select a squad they can work work with over the next three years, who have the capacity to learn and develop, I think he has largely done this (in my opinion this includes Farrell).

So although I would make these 4 changes I would not make many more so we can finally get some consistency of selection (bearing in mind there will be more due to injury)

Omelette wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Remember that Lancaster is still limited to just 6 permanent, non-injury changes to the real EPS squad:

Marler, Cobisiero, Cole, Wilson
Hartley, Webber
Parling, Lawes, Palmer, Botha
Croft, Johnson, Robshaw, Wood, dowson, Morgan, Waldrom

Care, Youngs, Dickson
Flood, Farrell
Barritt, Allen, Turner-Hall, Tuilagi, joseph
Ashton, Sharples
Foden, Goode, Brown


Depending on injury status, he can replace Webber and Croft free of charge so to speak. After that he is limited to just 6 changes.

There is no point wasting a spot on Armitage as he still would only be available for the official release periods. You canget the same access without adding him.

I would drop Allen, JTH, Botha and Dowson - replacing them with Burns, 36, Lanchbury and Haskell. I reckon most would bring those four in.
The real debate is on whether to make the two final changes and if so where. Personally I feel wing looks weak and would love some real pace in the squad. this may mean dropping one of the full backs.

Agree with you LT, Armitage is a waste of a pick as he falls outside the EPS agreement although contacting Toulon for some negotiation would be worthwhile.

I also agree with your 4 changes as most people do. I think having three 12's and only 2 tens in the original Eps was a mistake.

I don't agree with all the Farrell/flood bashing (not by you LT). The attacking performance of a team does not come solely down to the 10,12 and 13. You need go forward ball, carrying options, variety, consistent performance at the breakdown and much much more. Our failings are not the sole responsibility of the midfield. So while I agree burns does deserve a call up, he alone (or with twelvetrees, who equally should be in the squad) will not turn us into an amazing attacking force overnight. It is going to take time and the coaches need to install attacking skills and mindsets into the whole squad over a period of time. Thus, the management team need to select a squad they can work work with over the next three years, who have the capacity to learn and develop, I think he has largely done this (in my opinion this includes Farrell).

So although I would make these 4 changes I would not make many more so we can finally get some consistency of selection (bearing in mind there will be more due to injury)

I agree let's be honest - all the 9s and 10s have looked mediocre. It's not like one halfback has shone out of the muck.

It's strange but I haven't noticed the coaches really taking that much flack. I just don't really see much of a gameplan from England. Not much structure. The forwards seem to be too static. The backs seem to be too predictable.

It's refreshing when things are mixed up and executed properly. Beale caused so many problems with his chipping. I remember Carter's kick vs Scotland which was perfectly weighted and led to a try.

England in my opinion are simply too sluggish and predictable. I don't see that this is down to individual players.

beshocked wrote:
It's strange but I haven't noticed the coaches really taking that much flack. I just don't really see much of a gameplan from England. Not much structure. The forwards seem to be too static. The backs seem to be too predictable.

I disagree. There is a clear game plan. It is to play the most uninspiring, indecisive rugby ever. Something we seem to be adhering to very well!

I'm not advocating giving SL the chop and truly believe he needs to be given until the WC, but I have found these AI games to be a huge step backwards. It comes across that he is not attempting to create a game plan of our own, instead the selection seems to be based around defending the other team. If Mike Catt is having an influence I really cannot see it. Something needs to change and soon.

The EPS stsytem does allow changes for players not playing reguallry in their designated psotion at club level (eg Dan Cole is named as a wing in the EPS, he appears at SH for Tigers, they can swap him out for Phil Vickery) and also "form". When you add in injuries and suspensions and all the rest in practical terms it means the england coach can call up who he wants ....but really if Lancatser is making more than a few non injury changes to the squad it highlights that he literaly hasnt got a clue what hes doing. ..or confirms that he beleieves he hadnt got a clue whne he picked his previous squad.

HongKongCherry wrote:

beshocked wrote:
It's strange but I haven't noticed the coaches really taking that much flack. I just don't really see much of a gameplan from England. Not much structure. The forwards seem to be too static. The backs seem to be too predictable.

I disagree. There is a clear game plan. It is to play the most uninspiring, indecisive rugby ever. Something we seem to be adhering to very well!

I'm not advocating giving SL the chop and truly believe he needs to be given until the WC, but I have found these AI games to be a huge step backwards. It comes across that he is not attempting to create a game plan of our own, instead the selection seems to be based around defending the other team. If Mike Catt is having an influence I really cannot see it. Something needs to change and soon.

Ive been banging on about it since the Scotland match. Tuill mid way through the autumn i was being accussed of all manner of things, including being Welsh. Theres a degree of patience, but at some point in the 6 nations if Englands pack remains strong that England should be looking to add real spark in the backs and a bit of imagination in their structured play.
Im not really considering this game a fair yardstick on Englands progress or on the coaches.

OP:
Your starting XV, 8, 10, 11, 12, are Glaws' axis. Plus 14 Sharples maybe. This could ruin our dear Glaws club, but maybe the RFU compensation will help.
I have been excited last season / this (ok 8 & 12 just joined) by these Glaws youngsters. Be brilliant to see them all graduate and become established international class players.

gregortree wrote:OP:
Your starting XV, 8, 10, 11, 12, are Glaws' axis. Plus 14 Sharples maybe. This could ruin our dear Glaws club, but maybe the RFU compensation will help.
I have been excited last season / this (ok 8 & 12 just joined) by these Glaws youngsters. Be brilliant to see them all graduate and become established international class players.

You get the same money no matter how many players are picked for England.

I don't think the players we have right now have the skill sets to play good attacking rugby at international level (by and large). they are trained to play a more attributional style of rugby at club level and expected to do this week in week out for 80 mins in the prem.

That does not mean i don't think we have talented enough players to play good rugby at international level if given the time and the coaching.

This is why i (and it seems others) are not jumping in SL'ers back. he seems to have fixed all the problems that could be fixed in the short term. it may now take a few years to coach the individual skills and the team mentality needed to play good attacking international rugby.

PSW i dont see it as 'if Englands pack remains strong that England should be looking to add real spark in the backs and a bit of imagination in their structured play'. The pack is as much a part of a teams attack as the backs. if the attack isn't working its not all the backs fault.

I actually think that this highlights why rugby in england isn't moving on - its not a case of the forwards winning the ball and the backs scoring the tries, all the players should be able to see space, beat a man and execute when an opportunity arises. Its not an 'us and them'.

Yes the pack we have may be able to compete in the set piece and the tight phases, but if the carriers cant see space and use it, offload under pressure, create space for others to use etc. then we dont have a good international pack. The best packs don't just beat the other pack in the tight, they add to the teams attack.

HongKongCherry wrote: .. I have found these AI games to be a huge step backwards.

From what? Charge down tries less than a year ago

It stings to lose for sure, from that to pushing the world 2/3 in 10 months i can live with.

Botha & Palmer out - Launchbury & Garvey in.
Tom Johnson out - Haskell in
Dowson out - Fearns in

Burns, Wade, and Twelvetrees must come in.

The rest im non plussed on as i think we "on the whole" have the best available in the squad

AlastairW wrote:

HongKongCherry wrote: .. I have found these AI games to be a huge step backwards.

From what? Charge down tries less than a year ago

It stings to lose for sure, from that to pushing the world 2/3 in 10 months i can live with.

We gave a way a try to a sort of charge down/ping pong against SA. So yeah, it iss a step back in that regard. With Botha and CH out of favour I ask...wither the tries? Certainly not from Asston

formerly known as Sam wrote:Alex Goode is one of the classiest players in the England backline. He's showed a lot of skill for England already and adds a whole different dimension to he backline. Brown is just not close at international level and I think Goode is now more integral to this team than Foden was to others previously. He will not be dropped and certainly shouldn't.

Not sure on Croft's return until he's actually played a few games. Will need to see that nasty neck injury has effected him.

Not wholly sure what form May has shown to earn a call up either. Now Christian Wade there's a classy winger in great form.

I agree Goode has played well but personally I want to see the 12 acting as a second playmaker as this is what all of Twelvetrees, Barritt and Allen are good at. People (including myself) have criticised Barritt's lack of creativity in an England shirt and whilst he hasn't set the world alight our game plan has mainly seemed to employ him as a crash ball centre or just a second pair of hands to get the ball wide. I think we'd be much better of with more pace in the back three (hence Foden at 15) and using our 12 as a second playmaker if needed. Goode doesn't fit into this game plan. Just an opinion on how best we can play really.

That said I wouldn't mind seeing Goode in the squad for Barritt or Allen as I agree 3 IC's is excessive.

When fit I'm happy to see Croft come back in quickly same as we've seen with Corbs and Lawes recently. He's an established International player and a very good one. Plus he offers us a more dynamic line-out both offensively and defensively with his mobility moving up and down the line as well as how good he is in the air.

Johnny May is a guy I've been pushing to be included for a while now as everytime I see him play he looks the sort of player who could be a class apart. Unlike most our other options on the wing I can't see a weak point in his game. He's got pace to burn, a good rugby brain so he plays what's in front of him, good under the high ball from his time at FB and most importantly compared to Ashton,Sharples and Wade he is good in defence.

I accept Wade is up there with our most exciting players in attack but his defence isn't currently good enough for International level. We saw how Sharples got targeted in the Aus game. If people can cite not wanting to see a player set back in their development by being introduced to early in the case of Burns then you can't realistically call for Wades inclusion until his defence is given time to improve!

Tom Varndell & Christian Wade are the 2 most in form wingers at the moment. To exclude them is insane. We are facing New Zealand with ONE winger who cant score. Madness.

http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/match/25692.html

well he did score.....

There is an issue with Wade's defence, but it's to do with him sometimes getting his positioning wrong covering multiple defenders in larger expanses rather than ability or tenacity in the tackle. In 606 tradition some posters have exaggerated the degree of this problem and it's manageability a fair bit beyond what it is. For a defence coach worth his salt, positioning is about one of the easiest problems to address. Given what Wade does bring to the party I think it would be far better to get him training in the squad and let the coaches target what he's occasionally doing wrong. Especially when the alternative England have gone for is bringing in a player who although a good club player can't match Wade's ability and seems to have defensive problems of his own (Biggs has missed 1 in 4 tackles this season).

Wade Biggs
9 Matches 9
5 Tries 1
25 Points 5
2 Try assist 2
11 Kicks From Hand 8
32 Passes 5
61 Carries 36
677 Metres carried 267
14 Clean breaks 4
10 Offloads 3
26 Defenders beaten 8
30 Tackles 23
4 Missed tackles 8



I'm a fan of Jonny May and am more than happy to have him in and around the squad (at his best he'd be one of three wingers I'd have in a free choice EPS), but his form at the beginning of the season post SA wasn't noteworthy and he's been injured since September with a niggly PCL knee injury that refuses to heal 100% and is critical to his running game. Even if he comes back in the next few weeks he'd have to have a pretty spectacular month to warrant making him a permanent EPS change for use during the 6N.

Wades Defensive Liabilities are a complete myth.

As shown by these stats he is more than capable of defending in the prem and he certainly didn't do badly against the SA BarBars.

Granted he may not be up to defending on an international stage but how do we know ? theres only one way to find out.

This guy is something special lets take a risk.

I think if wade is brought in he should be used as an impact sub.would be harsh to drop sharples from the squad after one poor defensive display.johnny may is rated by SL but is currently injured so surely has to play catch up.would like to see eastmond in the saxons andIf he impresses promoted for argie tour.

Were Australia bothered that Campese couldnt tackle.
Did Wales care that through the early years Shane couldnt tackle...
Even Jonah Lomu's defence wasnt the best....

No! They were far bothered that these guys were sublime offensively...and players like Wade have that ability...to create things out of nothing.

England badly need that at the moment...that x factor.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Were Australia bothered that Campese couldnt tackle.
Did Wales care that through the early years Shane couldnt tackle...
Even Jonah Lomu's defence wasnt the best....

No! They were far bothered that these guys were sublime offensively...and players like Wade have that ability...to create things out of nothing.

England badly need that at the moment...that x factor.

I think in this team, with the lack of quick ball and momentum from the forwards, even Wade's jinking excellence would get smashed. BUT, he is the only player i've seen this year conjure something from nothing, so I see little choice, get him involved!

I agree Hood.

So in reality...most fans would say theres not really many changes to be made to the enitre squad...maybe about 5-6...and possibly a change in tactics?

Thats not too bad i guess...maybe we are going in the right direction?

My worry isn't that he would get smashed back, more that he would never get the ball at all.

I agree that he can conjure something out of nothing. This is especially important because our backline offers little unpredictability, the opposition knows exactly what they are going to do before they do it. They seem very blunt at the moment, that's why I'd pick Wade ahead of Monye and Sharples.

Cumbrian wrote:My worry isn't that he would get smashed back, more that he would never get the ball at all.

I agree that he can conjure something out of nothing. This is especially important because our backline offers little unpredictability, the opposition knows exactly what they are going to do before they do it. They seem very blunt at the moment, that's why I'd pick Wade ahead of Monye and Sharples.

Yeah, might be more accurate.

Geordie - It's possible, but it still doesn't feel like we've moved forward to me. Meh.

So then, whilst I'm not one to make wholesale changes to my views on the basis of one game I'm very happy to admit to being proven wrong about several players today. Main ones being;

Farrell - Though I cant say he's made me think he should be starting in the 6N he definitely reminded me of what he's good at. His passing game still needs to improve as does his decision making in attack but his place kicking and defence are exceptional. The game today showed his value to the squad and if he finds form in the AP I'd add him to the squad.

Goode - I thought he'd been solid but not quite to the standard many have spoken of in the AI's. Today I thought he played a more mature game and showed his value as a different option to Foden/Brown. He kept offering himself in attack and was solid under the high ball. Very importantly he was clever in choosing when to kick and when to run which is a massive part of the game vs NZ.

So my altered squad on current thought process would be;

Loosehead - Corbisiero, Marler

Hooker - Hartley, Youngs

Tighthead - Cole, Wilson

Lock - Parling, Launchberry, Lawes, Palmer

Blindside - Wood, Croft, Haskell

Openside - Robshaw, ? - Let players fight it out at clubs for the 5th flanker in the squad. Lots of players in contention with Armitage,Gibson,Johnson,etc

No 8 - Morgan, Waldrom

Scrum half - Youngs, Care, Dickson

Fly half - Flood, Burns, Farrell

Inside Centre - Twelvetrees, Barritt

Outside Centre - Tuilagi, Joseph

Wing - Ashton, Johnny May - Wade if May isn't fit

Full Back - Foden, Brown, Goode - Foden/Brown covering wing

I'd still like to see Johnny May in the squad to develop or Wade in his absence. I've also removed Armitage as I think England gameplan in the forwards really came to fruition today. We've been complaining about the lack of a fetcher but when you look at the work Parling,Launchberry,Cole,Wood and Robshaw all get through on the floor our pack can work without one.

From this the only change to my starting XV would be Foden on the left wing and Brown at FB giving us.

1.Corbs
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Parling - I think he's been a standout player all AI's and is turning into a very good international player.
5.Launchberry
6.Wood
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan

9.Youngs
10.Burns - Farrell had a great game but Burns offers a much more rounded game in attack.

11.Foden
12.Twelvetrees - Barritt impressed but my views haven't changed from the main post/article.
13.Tuilagi
14.Ashton - Still needs to find form at Sarries
15.Brown - Really impressed today and I hope he proved a few wrong about his pace of the mark!

16.Youngs 17.Marler 18.Wilson 19.Lawes 20.Croft 21.Care 22.Flood/Farrell (give them time at clubs to find form) 23.Joseph

In the backs I feel harsh on Goode given his form but I feel we need pace in the back 3 and Brown/Foden offer more of this than Goode. I thought Brown was great today and good vs SA. His acceleration has improved out of sight and I'd like to see him at FB in the 6N.

At centre I also feel harsh on Barritt as he played well today and has always been solid but Twelvetrees offers more in attack and the 6N is a good time for him to come in IMO.

The logic with Burns over Flood/Farrell is much the same to the above.

A bit random, but Billy Vunipola is playing in front of Stuart Lancaster for Wasps against Bayonne and is having a stormer. He'd be worth bearing in mind if there are any injuries to our no.8's

In the backs I feel harsh on Goode given his form but I feel we need pace in the back 3 and Brown/Foden offer more of this than Goode.

I don't think there's much of anything in pace between Goode and Brown. For me Goode looks far more comfortable on the international stage and was the most consistent England player in the AIs. He really was classy throughout. I felt Brown was poor pre the AB game where he was excellent, against SA there was far too much bosh and not enough brains. Brown just doesn't have the all round football skills of Goode and seems to struggle to bring the creative side he shows at Quins.

Foden is 4th choice at best on current form. I'd select Goode, Brown and Miller in that order ahead of Foden. Tait is starting to come good so by the 6N he could be in the frame with a similar style to Foden but a better kicking game (which Lancaster seems to like).

To be fair, Sam, he hasn't got to start at his position of FB to show that creative side. He's not a winger, that's why he looks less comfortable than Goode because he is less comfortable due to the fact he is out of position!

True CJ. Against the ABs when he went looking for the ball used his step he looked dangerous. A stark difference to SA game where he took more contact than Manu.

It's nice to have options but that ability of Goode's to act as a secondary play maker is the difference between the two for me.

Yeah, it's nice to not have to worry about who can fill in in that position. Goode has the shirt and the gameplan really utilises him so he should start as things stand. feel bad for Brown but at least his showing on the wing demonstrates that picking him on the bench, whilst not ideal, isn't as criminally stupid as I thought

Brown is clearly still adapting to the positional aspects of playing on the wing - for example he didn't handle overlaps against the AB as well as he normally does from FB (though in his defence, it was the ABs with an overlap, which is about as dangerous as it gets, and I think Goode could have done better at providing FB cover, too).

However, his ability to stay on his feet is both unique and useful, and I wouldn't be surprised if Lancaster sticks with him in that position, given his preference for fielding 2 fullbacks. As a strategy it makes a difference from previous coaches' tendency to field 3 wings and hope one of them can play at FB!

formerly known as Sam

Whilst I agree Goode is a fine player the only huge strength I can see in his game over Browns is his kicking, which was probably the poorest aspect of his game in the AI's. I felt similarly to the half-backs he often kicked to long too often not giving the chasing players a chance. As said this was a common aspect of frustration throughout the AI's not just from Goode however.

Incidentally this is a big reason I'd love to see Twelvetrees in the side - his huge boot offers another option to the half backs when kicking which will hopefully take pressure of the others and stop some of the poor kicking. The only thing I find more frustrating as a spectator than forwards taking a crash ball standing still is an up and under going to long to be useful!

On the Brown/Goode issue once I've got Twelvetrees at 12 Goode's other strength over Brown as a second playmaker isn't as useful given 36 can cover this aspect very well with his passing game. From there I feel Brown is stronger under the high-ball and positionally than Goode in defence (though this is marginal). Plus Browns ability to stay on his feet and his good ground work is invaluable as shown with a very good turnover vs NZ.

It's not that I don't rate Goode just that Brown fits the side I'd like to see play better with 36 at 12 and Foden at 11.

I can understand Lancaster sticking with Goode/Barritt given the NZ game - however if we want to keep improving I think Twelvetrees offers a lot of what we've been missing in attack.

Goode is the best at distributing and orchestrating the backline, which gives them a different dimension in attack. Brown has the power game, adding an extra bit of steal at the back and the ability to almost always beat players and make ground.

I think to some degree there is a case of horses for courses and dependency on the composition of the rest of the backline. Goode was quality in the AIs and really showed what he could add to the backline's effectiveness in the Fiji game, pulling strings in the middle of the backline or coming in at first receiver and letting the FH run the show from the middle. I do however think his opportunties to shift from a FB's normal positioning and do that decreased as the quality of the opposition went up and time & space decreased. I would argue that in the NZ match for instance Brown's game and performance was probably the more useful. How the midfield partnership continues to develop and who is playing FH will also dictate which style of play is more profitable, whether we need an extra hand in more pivotal positioning shaping the backs' attack patterns or someone to break into the line and produce more dynamic go forward.

I thought Brown was seriously good against NZ...

At the moment though its Brown v Goode...Foden is 3rd choice...maybe even fourth depending on Millers form?

GeordieFalcon wrote:I thought Brown was seriously good against NZ...

At the moment though its Brown v Goode...Foden is 3rd choice...maybe even fourth depending on Millers form?

I'd agree that until Foden proves some form Brown/Goode have earnt the right to fight it out for the shirt. I'm pretty happy with the FB resources at the moment though. Brown,Goode,Foden at the top of the pile then throw in Miller and Matthew Tait returning there for the Tigers and the future looks bright at the back! (Just to push my pet project of getting Johnny May in the side he of course covers wing and FB very well too)

Personally I'd very happily see Foden fill the left wing spot we're struggling to fill. He has pace to burn, is strong in contact, good in defence, good under the high ball and importantly in the current side adds a bit of experience. Then leave Ashton on the right if he regains form or if he doesn't bring Wade in for a bit of creativity. Currently I wouldn't want to see Wade and Ashton in the same side at International level due to them both being liable in defence.