Rafa and Toni fed up of fast surfaces

well this is certainly a different opinion

http://www.tennisworldusa.org/Toni-Nadal-furious-with-ATP-Rafael-didnt-win-Masters-because-of-them-articolo7169.html

quite the alternative view point on the ATP tour and almost completely the opposite view of what Federer said a few weeks ago. Almost suggesting all tennis should be played on clay, and bemoans the fact that only 2 masters are on the surface (in reference to having blue clay for one). Doesn't mention that grass has no masters event, and that the hard courts are hardly quick these days but its definitely the other side of the fence.

also Nadal has never won The World Tour Finals because it is 'unfairly' played on hard court because most players are fast court specialists. Strong claims from Toni

Have you got a video link backing this interview up?
IIRC I've come across a few unreliable articles from this website before- they're not trustworthy like tennis.com

Also you can change the title to just 'Toni'; I don't think there is indication Rafa has ever said these things

I dont see it as very controversial...his view is that there are too many HC tournaments, I happen to agree. Yes the WTF is always played on HC...I dont see issue with saying that either. I think some of the points suffer from translation too. As IMBL says, none of this comes from Rafa either, Toni has a habit of speaking for Rafa but then sometimes finds out his charge isnt too happy with whats been said.

Its time Toni/Rafa or for that sake who ever said it understand lack of variety is killing the game, 100% fast court or 100% clay court would yield a boring tour, a mix and match gives interesting result.

If Toni gave this interview, does he indirectly accepts the view that Rafa is only capable of winning WTF if its played in clay? this is ridiculous to see Rafa's own coach sees him as just a clay specialist and not an all court player.

They want the conditions to be even more in their favour?

Other than Dubai and Wimbledon when it's not soaked, I wasn't aware of any fast surfaces

There are plenty of medium paced ones, which Uncle Toni should be infinitely grateful for!!

I'll have more slow surfaces when we have more genuinely fast ones

Good point banbrotam...the problem is we have too many similar speed surfaces...and too many HCs. We need variety all round.

Before even coming back on tour, they have already set out the usual moaning litany. I don't miss them both!

Variety is the key

1 Masters on Grass
2 on 'super fast surfaces
3 on Clay
4 on 'normal' hardcourts

Hence the three superfast events are countered by the three clay events

Sounds easy!!!

JK...when you say "they", you mean Toni right.

Yep banbrotam, they took carpet off the tour in 2009 too.
I cant believe the ATP cant see sense in restoring variety and a properly thought out calendar where you have surface Masters preceding every slam. Surfaces are so boring now, the same old faces get to the final of every week.

Let's not forget that tennis coaches are paid for by the players they train...... wait a minute, maybe Tony Nadal is an exception to that

disappointing comments by Toni I'm afraid, entirely self(Rafa)-serving. While I don't dispute that there is maybe too much tennis played on hard courts, there are very good reasons for this. Moreover, to call them "fast courts" is entirely misleading, as very few of them are that quick (though quicker than clay) and the O2 has recently been on the type of surface Rafa is more than capable of winning on.

No, I think the main reason Rafa has never won the WTFs is simply that he plays his best tennis through the spring, and tends to be slightly weary come the end of the season: how often would you say Rafa arrived at the WTF in peak condition? Blaming the ATP for what is essentially a scheduling "problem" (I'm not sure it is, as such, a "problem", as it makes sense for Rafa to be at his best on his preferred surface) is poor form IMO.

I'm not a big fan of faster surfaces in general, with the growing number of huge servers in the game I don't think it's the way to go. Some more variety would be nice though: lower bouncing grass for starters, the odd fast tournament, clay to get back to sticky mud, etc. but I don't think it's the way the ATP want to go.

Here's another controversial viewpoint: the fans prefer to have the same players competing at the back end of every tournament. Maybe not the hardcore tennis fans, but the more casual fans will find it easier. It's something that started with Federer, who was the first real all-court player (of course, he benefited as much as anyone from slowing conditions). When you see how popular he became (as much a by-product of him winning everything as his likeable brand of tennis IMO), is it any surprise the ATP realised the potential to be gained from having more guys like him?

For everyone getting all swivel eyed and/or hot under the collar (Not helped by CAS implying that Toni was suggesting that all tournaments should be played on clay ) This is what Toni said and he was specifically referring to the WTF. This is from the article that CAS linked to

The Master of the end of the year has been always played on hard court: “The surface can’t be changed because ATP has so decided. I think that it’s not fair to play always on the same surface simply because tennis is also played on court and grass. Probably because of ATP, Rafael has never won, until now, a Master. Which is the problem? The problem is very simple. When you ask the players where they want to play it, most of them, specialist of fast surfaces, answer hard court. This shouldn’t happen, ATP should take a decision apart from the players.”

Of course some may still go swivel eyed at Toni saying anything... But chances are his nephew would have won the WTF if it wasn't always played on fast hardcourt. His record against Federer at this event is 0-4. Nadal can usually beat this player!


Sorry Roger...

You are quoting the wrong bit...

HE, if you exclude the WTF surface, it seems fair to also exclude clay.
Without those 2 surfaces, the H2H in BO3 matches is 3-2 to Rafa.
(If we include clay i.e. all BO3 it's 8-3 to Rafa.)

So if the WTF was played on outdoor clay, and especially if it was increased to BO5 and also if it wasn't drizzling and if his knees were OK at the end of the season, then it would have increased Rafa's chances, but guess what - none of that happened. Uncle Toni is a bit old to be shouting "life isn't fair", IMO.

Ha ha! I don't think the WTF should always be played on clay. I don't think that would be fair as I would like Roger (or anyone else) to have a chance. But I certainly don't think it should ALWAYS be played on indoor hard either.

Don't worry nobody can change the past so what has happened has happened. But it is still possible to change the future. I think what Toni was saying that it shouldn't be individual players (or their coaches) who make the decision as they will always choose what suits them. The choice should be made by those that are independent to ensure fairness to all. Otherwise Federer gets to choose... (Ha ha!)

The vast majority of tennis fans would like to see a bit more variety in court speeds on the tour, me included. Therefore I quite like the fact the the WTF is played on a slightly quicker indoor surface.

I'm sure Roger loves this surface more than anyone, but it is the only big title that gets played in these conditions throughout the year. I'm sure Novak and Andy if given the choice would choose a surface like the Aussie open. I'm sure Rafa would want it played on the clay at RG...

But this surface is a bit different, and so I like it. Every tournament surface favours some more than others, but as long as there's a decent mix then I'm happy. I wish more tournaments had more variety so I disagree with Uncle T. I understand he's sticking up for his player but tough. All the slams are played in such conditions that it gives Rafa a great chance, the fact that the WTF isn't is something he should just accept IMO.

But the WTF has always been indoors, I believe - way back to the Madison Square Gardens days. I doubt the players have much say in it.

Danny_1982

If you like more variety why do you want the WTF always played on the same surface? It could sometimes be played on a surface that suits Roger and sometimes on one that suits Rafa and sometimes on one a little in between. IMO it should always be played on a surface that is frequently used throughout the year. Indoor hardcourt isn't.

That would leave outdoor hardcourt or clay court as the alternatives then? Seeing as grass isn't played enough to warrant being selected. Julius is right, I think tradition has a lot to do with it.

On topic, I can understand why Toni's said these things - he has a right to stick up for his charge and try to boost his chances. It doesn't come across very well, and I thoroughly disagree with him, but it's good to have discussion about this sort of thing. Perhaps Nadal can bring it up with the ATP?

Edit: Agree with Danny below, good post.

HE

The WTF is the only big tournament played in those conditions. The rest are relatively slow. If the WTF were changed to the same as any of the slams we'd have even less variety.

If they changed the WTF to clay for example, but speeded up RG and Wimbledon a bit then I'd be all for it as it would mix things up. But if they changed the WTF alone, then the year as a whole would have all big tournaments played in slow-medium conditions.

A bit of change all round - all for it.
A change to the WTF alone - not for me.

Danny_1982

That the WTF is the only big tournament played in these conditions is my argument against it. Not because I'm against variety but because it isn't a stand alone tournament. It is meant to be a measure of the best as I tried to explain here

https://www.606v2.com/t37924-is-the-wtf-a-true-test-of-the-best

I would have no objection to the introduction of say an indoor super fast Masters tournament. In fact I think this would be a good idea as it would make players and fans of this sort of game happy. Personally I would find something more entertaining to do whilst it was on though....

A big factor being missed here is that the WTF has to be held at the end of the season in November.

Playing outdoors at that time of year is likely to be a cold washout, certainly while it is held in London.

So if the event has to be held indoors, then you pretty much have to play on a hard court. I suppose they could lay a clay court but it's a surface that is easy to mess up (see Madrid this year) and who is going to want to switch to playing on indoor clay right at end of the US and Asian hard court swing?

Switch WTF to indoor clay.

I do wish Toni would stop using the royal "We" I doubt for a single minute that interview was conducted with Rafa´s approval. In his book Rafa says that his Uncle talks too much. This is why Rafa got fined for on court coaching by Toni he doesn´t know when to stop talking and treats Rafa as though he is still a child.
I would be the first to recognise that Toni has been an enormous influence in Rafa´s career and probably will be known as one of the greatest coaches of all time. But I think its time he allowed his nephew to speak for himself and stop putting words in Rafa´s mouth. We all know that indoor hc has never ever been to Rafa´s liking and so there is more than a slight chance that Rafa will NEVER win the WTF but I would suggest that Rafa has come to terms with that fact better than his Uncle. After the lay off that Rafa has had I would have thought he would have been more concerned about what Rafa can win rather than concerning himself about one tournament.

Its a shame these comments have come out because I have missed the guy, would love to see him locking horns with Novak Roger and Andy again

hawkeye wrote:For everyone getting all swivel eyed and/or hot under the collar (Not helped by CAS implying that Toni was suggesting that all tournaments should be played on clay ) This is what Toni said and he was specifically referring to the WTF. This is from the article that CAS linked t0

"If it was up to us we would play always on clay but it’s not something possible. Of the four Slam tournaments, two are on hard court. The Master 1000 are play almost all on hard court. It’s complicated to change the rules. There’s nothing to do. The only thing we can do is competing on fast surfaces. The surface can’t be changed because ATP has so decided. I think that it’s not fair to play always on the same surface simply because tennis is also played on court and grass. Probably because of ATP, Rafael has never won, until now, a Master. Which is the problem? The problem is very simple. When you ask the players where they want to play it, most of them, specialist of fast surfaces, answer hard court. This shouldn’t happen, ATP should take a decision apart from the players.”

Yes don't where I could have possibly got that from...

CAS wrote:

hawkeye wrote:For everyone getting all swivel eyed and/or hot under the collar (Not helped by CAS implying that Toni was suggesting that all tournaments should be played on clay ) This is what Toni said and he was specifically referring to the WTF. This is from the article that CAS linked t0

"If it was up to us we would play always on clay but it’s not something possible. Of the four Slam tournaments, two are on hard court. The Master 1000 are play almost all on hard court. It’s complicated to change the rules. There’s nothing to do. The only thing we can do is competing on fast surfaces. The surface can’t be changed because ATP has so decided. I think that it’s not fair to play always on the same surface simply because tennis is also played on court and grass. Probably because of ATP, Rafael has never won, until now, a Master. Which is the problem? The problem is very simple. When you ask the players where they want to play it, most of them, specialist of fast surfaces, answer hard court. This shouldn’t happen, ATP should take a decision apart from the players.”

Yes don't where I could have possibly got that from...

CAS. Ha ha! You are being very underhand as you have cut and pasted two of Toni's comments together to put words in his mouth. But anyone who looks at the link you have provided can see for themselves what was actually said.

Haddie-nuff wrote:I do wish Toni would stop using the royal "We" I doubt for a single minute that interview was conducted with Rafa´s approval. In his book Rafa says that his Uncle talks too much. This is why Rafa got fined for on court coaching by Toni he doesn´t know when to stop talking and treats Rafa as though he is still a child.
I would be the first to recognise that Toni has been an enormous influence in Rafa´s career and probably will be known as one of the greatest coaches of all time. But I think its time he allowed his nephew to speak for himself and stop putting words in Rafa´s mouth. We all know that indoor hc has never ever been to Rafa´s liking and so there is more than a slight chance that Rafa will NEVER win the WTF but I would suggest that Rafa has come to terms with that fact better than his Uncle. After the lay off that Rafa has had I would have thought he would have been more concerned about what Rafa can win rather than concerning himself about one tournament.

I disagree. It's difficult for either Toni or Rafa to speak up because they are directly affected. Rafa certainly doesn't need the hassle and better that he doesn't have to speak up (He should just concentrate on hitting forehands). But if the WTF is meant to be a test of the best it fails. Sometimes it's difficult to speak the truth so I'm glad that Toni is doing so. What a shame no one else has the nerve to say anything. I'm pretty sure that if the ATP decided to permanently schedule the WTF on outdoor clay (which would be equally unfair) there would be far more noisy howls of protest.

That is not what Rafa suggests in his autobiography.. i.e. he is capable of speaking for himself.. you don´t hear Federers coach speaking for him.
He says what he thinks Rafa is equally able to deal with it if it is something that he feels strongly enough about. He has in the past. He spoke up good and loud about the blue surface in Madrid....He has never had a problem speaking out when he was on the player´s committee. Its what big boys do

I have just found this quote about Uncle Toni

"Toni trained Rafa on poor courts with bad tennis balls to teach Rafa that winning or losing is not about the quality of courts, strings lights or balls but about attitude discipline and perspective"

It Must Be Love wrote:Switch WTF to indoor clay.

U mean the Blue Clay like in Madrid

I can't believe anyone is reading into this as anything more than a joke. It's always been played on a surface at least as fast as the one it is on now long before Nadal started qualifying for it. This is basically the same as Murray complaining about not winning the French open because it's always on clay. Even Kuerten managed a win on an indoor surface but we're to believe it's the ATPs fault Nadal couldn't do the same? If Nadal wanted to win then he should have learned how to hit more than one shot. Some of the stuff coming from them is getting really strange, they should just focus on "recovering".

This is not coming from Nadal if its coming from anywhere its Toni.. which is the argument Im making. When will people stop listinening to the monkey and wait until you hear it from the organ grinder.

Well I'm not holding it against Nadal as such the only thing I said that could be construed that way was by referring to "them". Anyhow on another note Nadal doesn't even need an excuse for the Rosol loss, it's not inconceivable for one pro to beat another. Well at least that was Feds take on the match when it happened. No one actually believes it detracts from Rafa for losing that match; he's still everything he was before.

I agree with you entirely. But as I said before I do sometimes wish Toni would just button it frankly..Everyone seems to take more notice of what comes out of Toni´s mouth than Rafa´s and he has a habit of contradicting himself.
I believe that Rafa has and always will have problems on indoor HC he has admitted that its his weakness in the past... He cant be good at everything lol

Haddie-nuff wrote:I believe that Rafa has and always will have problems on indoor HC he has admitted that its his weakness in the past... He cant be good at everything lol

Just a small correction he can't be the best on all surfaces, in my view he is good on all surfaces, not everybody can be assured of a win against Rafa on Indoor HC barring Fed, in 2010 Rafa made the finals making mockery of the current crop only going down to Fed in the finals that too not without a fight, yes Murray's match was so close but Rafa still managed a win.

Well I wont argue with you on that score i.c. Believe me at the moment I would be happy to see him win at anything... even if it is Ludo

If only the surfaces were as fast as they should be then Nadal wouldn't win anywhere except on clay. Sad times when Nadal one the Grand Slam sad times!

Super D Boon wrote: Sad times when Nadal one the Grand Slam sad times!

Nearly as sad as the time you almost learnt how to write English properly.
btw do you think Nadal can one the Grand Slam won more time? We'll have to wait and see I suppose.

Haddie-nuff wrote:Well I wont argue with you on that score i.c. Believe me at the moment I would be happy to see him win at anything... even if it is Ludo

Sorry to say Haddie I suspect his comeback won't be successful like expected by many die hard Nadal fans,let alone Top 3 the top 10 is gunning each other, it would be better for Nadal to skip AO and start from the clay season, with that way he would get his confidence back and can think of great return, in AO I guess there would be an earlier round exit.

It Must Be Love wrote:

Super D Boon wrote: Sad times when Nadal one the Grand Slam sad times!

Nearly as sad as the time you almost learnt how to write English properly.
btw do you think Nadal can one the Grand Slam won more time? We'll have to wait and see I suppose.

iz dere like much need for dat now bruv? no neeed u get me aiteee

ic Ive been saying the same for the last couple of weeks... but again have you heard or read anywhere that Nadal has said he will.. the press are speculating Toni is mouthing off again.. and personally I am of the belief it would be suicide.
I will believe he is when I hear him say it himself. Get a few matches on clay under his belt.. he will be eying the FO if he is looking for a slam this year imo
AND I am a diehard Rafa fan but a realist nonetheless

LuvSports! wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:

Super D Boon wrote: Sad times when Nadal one the Grand Slam sad times!

Nearly as sad as the time you almost learnt how to write English properly.
btw do you think Nadal can one the Grand Slam won more time? We'll have to wait and see I suppose.

iz dere like much need for dat now bruv? no neeed u get me aiteee