Saracens vs Gloucester

Saracens vs Gloucester

2nd vs 3rd

This is a very big match for both sides. There have been quite a few England selection arguments involving these two sides - Barritt vs Twelvetrees, Sharples vs Ashton and Burns vs Farrell.

Both sides are missing players - Gloucester missing the likes of May,Morgan,JSD and Burns.

Saracens missing the likes of Ashton,Barritt,Farrell, Goode,Vunipola,Brown and Brits (the latter two having to have a 1 week rest after international duty, strange in Brits case) as well as injuries to Wray,Burger,Melck,Powell and Maddock not helping matters.

Saracens have been boosted by the return of Wyles,Gill,Botha and most importantly Hodgson to the line up.

These are how the teams look:

5 Chris Wyles
14 David Strettle
13 Joel Tomkins
12 Duncan Taylor
11 James Short
10 Charlie Hodgson
9 Neil de Kock
1 Rhys Gill
2 John Smit
3 Matt Stevens
4 Steve Borthwick ©
5 Mouritz Botha
6 George Kruis
7 Will Fraser
8 Ernst Joubert

16 Jamie George
17 Nick Auterac
18 Petrus du Plessis
19 Alistair Hargreaves
20 Andy Saull
21 Richard Wigglesworth
22 Nils Mordt
23 Kameli Ratuvou


Rob Cook; Charlie Sharples, Tim Molenaar, Mike Tindall, Martyn Thomas; Billy Twelvetrees, Jimmy Cowan; Dan Murphy, Darren Dawidiuk, Rupert Harden; Will James, Jim Hamilton (capt); Tom Savage, Akapusi Qera, Sione Kalamafoni


The most interesting selections in my opinion are Kruis at 6 for Saracens when he's obviously a lock. Especially when Saull is available. From Gloucester it's Sir Billy at 10. He's played there before but he'll be up against the very experienced Chargedown Charlie.

Thoughts?

36 is seen as our 2nd FH at present and has played a few games already, so no great surprise he's there. The only real surprise is Thomas at wing, maybe Nigel Davies is copying the Stuart Lancaster approach (maybe we'll start playing clueless rugby too! ), but I can see it will be to have some genuine pace in the side as 36, Tinds & Molenaar are not known for their pace.

It's great that the Duke is back at hooker after his injury and in general I'm very happy with that pack who could cause some problems. It's a strong front 5 with lots of ball carriers in the back row and the bench is pretty strong too. Whilst we don't have a fetcher in the mix (except for Cox on the bench), our work at the breakdown has been excellent this year as it has been made clear that it is the whole team's responsibility and not just the 7s.

The games between Sarries and Glaws are typically close and turgid affairs. I'm expecting an intensely fought, scrappy game. I do think Glaws have a chance of sneaking this, but the head is saying Sarries by less than 5. I would've been more confident had Hodgson been out!

Don't know much about Thomas. Is he any good?

Sharples has got plenty of pace though. I am surprised Gloucester haven't gone with a wildcard like Ian Clark. I think he's a great young prospect - he really shone in the JP Morgan 7s.

Areas I would expect Gloucester to look to exploit - the breakdown and centres.

As already mentioned Kruis is not a 6. This means an imbalanced Saracens backrow. Could be a masterstroke or disaster.

I don't think Taylor has ever played 12. New partnership with Tomkins who is still relatively new to rugby union.


Gloucester have an excellent chance to win in my opinion.

I just hope Hodgson is fully fit because he's bound to get a battering.

Clark is a bit down the pecking order at the moment and he's been given regular game time whilst dual reg'd with Hartpury. Shane Monahan has been a revelation to us this season and was arguably ahead of Sharples in terms of form, which makes Thomas' inclusion surprising. Thomas is the ex-Dragons full back and Wales 7s player. He is very fast, but is guilty of not seeing the space or opportunity ahead of him.

I must admit despite me saying the head says a Sarries 5 point win, I've gone with a Glaws 2 point win on SuperBru. But then again, we could end up with a draw like last year.

Glos should be looking to take Saracens up front, they've shown they have a surprisingly nasty pack and against Saracens you need to mee them head on.

Saracens backrow looks good, should help work plenty of possesion from them.

I think it's a measure of how far Glaws have come that we come away from a 5 point loss to Sarries and be bitterly disappointed. It was our fault we lost and had we had a bit of composure at the end we would have got a penalty try, but in the grand scheme of things picking up a LBP away from home against a top 4 side is no bad thing. Rather frustrating I didn't listen to my head with SuperBru as I would have got it spot on, but then had we got the penalty try my heart would've got it spot on!

What's pleasing for me is that yet again Saracens have absorbed the missing of internationals and injuries quite well. Lots of relief as Gloucester are one of the most dangerous banana skins around.

Personally I thought Saracens were for the taking here for Gloucester so I can understand the disappointment but Gloucester have proven they are a real threat to the top 4.

You've built some grunt in the forwards and obviously have the backs that can sparkle.

Sounds like Charlie's return to the lineup made the difference!


Munster up next

After this weekend's result's I am optimistic. The team should be back to full compliment and in a confident mood.

HongKongCherry wrote:I think it's a measure of how far Glaws have come that we come away from a 5 point loss to Sarries and be bitterly disappointed. It was our fault we lost and had we had a bit of composure at the end we would have got a penalty try, but in the grand scheme of things picking up a LBP away from home against a top 4 side is no bad thing. Rather frustrating I didn't listen to my head with SuperBru as I would have got it spot on, but then had we got the penalty try my heart would've got it spot on!

did not see the game - but sseing as Hodgson knocked over 7 penalties and missed a couple, plus a couple of YCs for Glaws it suggests that there was a fair bit of indiscipline/cynical offending?

LondonTiger wrote:

HongKongCherry wrote:I think it's a measure of how far Glaws have come that we come away from a 5 point loss to Sarries and be bitterly disappointed. It was our fault we lost and had we had a bit of composure at the end we would have got a penalty try, but in the grand scheme of things picking up a LBP away from home against a top 4 side is no bad thing. Rather frustrating I didn't listen to my head with SuperBru as I would have got it spot on, but then had we got the penalty try my heart would've got it spot on!

did not see the game - but sseing as Hodgson knocked over 7 penalties and missed a couple, plus a couple of YCs for Glaws it suggests that there was a fair bit of indiscipline/cynical offending?

Definite a case of indiscipline, but I wouldn't go as far as saying cynical. Sean Davey was taking no prisoners at the breakdown and he warned both sides, but the first offender was Dan Murphy. It was quite a harsh yellow as he was initially legally competing for the ball. I can't have any arguments about Kalamafoni's yellow. He fell on the wrong side of the ruck. Glaws' indiscipline definitely cost us the game and it was caused by some pretty poor game management. Jimmy Cowan has been pretty good for us since joining, but he had a nightmare yesterday. His kicking was appalling which put us under unnecessary pressure. 36 was also poor at FH - in future I feel he needs to stay at 12 and we play Taylor at FH with Burns Jnr and Dan Robson as back ups.

36 is very hit and miss at 10. Much more consistent - and beter suited - to 12.

Was poor at 10 but the place kicking from him was magnificent. Kalamafoni, what a muppet calling for a Sarries sin bin and thus getting an easy 3 pointer reversed! Could've taken the 3 points at the end and not bothered with the scrum.

I thought he only went there because he was guaranteed the 12 shirt? He should've stayed at tigers and shown Allen how to take a clothesline.

That aside its evident that glaws are unlikely to be contenders this year even if they are making up the numbers come playoff time. Saracens on the other hand looking as efficient as ever despite being depleted by England.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:I thought he only went there because he was guaranteed the 12 shirt? He should've stayed at tigers and shown Allen how to take a clothesline.

That aside its evident that glaws are unlikely to be contenders this year even if they are making up the numbers come playoff time. Saracens on the other hand looking as efficient as ever despite being depleted by England.

Saracens have far greater strength in depth than us, don't forget we're missing May, Sinbad, Trinder, O Morgan, Edmonds to injury as well as Morgan and Burns to England - so pretty depleted as well.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
That aside its evident that glaws are unlikely to be contenders this year even if they are making up the numbers come playoff time. Saracens on the other hand looking as efficient as ever despite being depleted by England.

That's a curious comment, Gloucester lost away to Saracens by only 5 points and had a similar number of equally important players missing. Tigers lost away to Gloucester by a similar margin (6 points) with both having pretty much 1st choice sides and you'd surely think Tigers likely to be contenders. Then there's Quins who lost to Saracens at home with a full strength side and again they must be likely contenders.

Mbernz you can't really compare the calibre of players missing.

Saracens had 7 current internationals missing. Gloucester had 2.

beshocked wrote:Mbernz you can't really compare the calibre of players missing.

Saracens had 7 current internationals missing. Gloucester had 2.

I think what he probably means is missing due to injury or suspension rather than Ben Morgan and Freddie Burns with England. We were missing Huia Edmonds, Andy Hazell, Alex Brown, Sinbad, Johnny May, Henry Trinder and Olly Morgan - all of whom could be considered 1st team players, or very close to it.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:I thought he only went there because he was guaranteed the 12 shirt? He should've stayed at tigers and shown Allen how to take a clothesline.

That aside its evident that glaws are unlikely to be contenders this year even if they are making up the numbers come playoff time. Saracens on the other hand looking as efficient as ever despite being depleted by England.

PSW, I really hope that comment comes back to bite you in the backside!

As I said though it's not really the same as losing current internationals.

Plus Saracens have Saunders,Wray,Maddock,Melck,Burger,Powell as absentees too.

Sure Saracens had more internationals missing, but it's not just about absolute quality of the players, but how critical the respective players are to the teams and how good the replacements are. In that regard I think it's pretty similar.

Gloucester were missing Burns, B Morgan, O Morgan, JSD, May, Trinder, Hazell & Edmonds. Those are all pretty much first choice players, and in Burns someone who is absolutely pivotal to Gloucester performing. Saracens were also missing a FH, but they still had their first choice one.

If you look at who Saracens brought in to replace their missing backs, Wyles & Short are quality players and only Duncan is more questionable/unestablished. Gloucester brought in Thomas, Molenaar & Cook, who in my opinion are all pretty average. Then in the forwards Saracens were able to replace most of their missing internationals with other internationals.

I'm not making any excuses for either side, but what I was getting at is that I think if the match was replayed with full first choice sides, although the game might play quite differently, Saracens would end up winning by a not too disimilar margin. Do you think Sarries would win by significantly more?

Mbernz some players are more critical than others.

The players who I think would have made the most difference were Brits,Brown and Barritt.

As you already mentioned Taylor was at 12. He's probably 4th choice there.

Kruis, a lock was at 6.

Brits is a special player, his influence was going to be missing.

Gloucester have a decent backrow without Morgan, is he really that essential?

Burns I could understand. Your no 1 fly half.

May,Morgan and JSD. You couldn't play them all as well as Sharples.

Significantly more? No probably not.

beshocked wrote:Mbernz some players are more critical than others.

The players who I think would have made the most difference were Brits,Brown and Barritt.

As you already mentioned Taylor was at 12. He's probably 4th choice there.

Kruis, a lock was at 6.

Brits is a special player, his influence was going to be missing.

Gloucester have a decent backrow without Morgan, is he really that essential?

Burns I could understand. Your no 1 fly half.

May,Morgan and JSD. You couldn't play them all as well as Sharples.

Significantly more? No probably not.

So, ignoring all the quibbling over the specifics, basically you agree with what was my general point.

I'm not a Gloucester supporter by the way.

I was only really responding to Sam saying Glaws won't be contenders. The top is all pretty close at the moment and Sarries and Quins still have to come to Kingsholm, whilst our away games there are two of only 3 lost (all with a lbp)!

beshocked wrote:
May,Morgan and JSD. You couldn't play them all as well as Sharples.

You could - 11.JSD 13.May 14. Sharples 15.Morgan (their actual positions)

I thought May saw himself as a FB or winger.

Top 4 is shaping up nicely. Top 6 head to heads.

Leicester play Saints, Quins and Exeter away

Saracens need to go to Leicester and Gloucester away

Quins play Saracens and Gloucester away, two matches vs Saints

Saints play Saracens away, still have the two matches vs Quins.

Gloucester have Leicester and Saints away, two matches vs Exeter

Exeter have Saracens and Quins plus two matches vs Gloucester