Well done England

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Well this game is still going when I write this but there's no way NZ can come back from a game that's already beyond them. NZ doesn't get too many defeats like this so when it does happen you have to tip your hat and commend the opposition performance. No excuses. The better side has won on the day.

I wrote a thread about applying pressure on this ABs side. England made a good start but I was worried that they didn't get points in the opening exchanges where England were dominating particularly at the breakdown. Indeed it was NZ that had the first opportunity for points. Carter missed two kicks but Farrell showed the importance of ticking the scoreboard over. 3 wonderful place kicks and a drop goal and England went into the shed at half time 12 - 0 up.

They started well as well and got another penalty. Then NZ responded and suddenly they looked good with the ball. 2 tries and it was 15-14 and England looked against the ropes. They showed character though and Manu had a big hand in getting England back on top. NZ started to fall off tackles and senior players like Carter who missed an important first up tackle and Read pushing a pass that got intercepted and the game was out of reach for NZ.

So England showed the importance of applying pressure and made this AB side look ordinary. I was impressed by Launchbury, Tom Youngs, Farrell and of course Tuilagi. But really you have to compliment the whole England effort. This will give them huge confidence going into the 6N next year and that will have an effect on their performance undoubtedly. France had a good autumn but now finishing the series on a high, you might say England go into the 6N with great belief.

For NZ the unbeaten year ends on a sour note. Make no mistake about it, this defeat will really hurt them. Poor old McCaw will probably not be able to relax in his sabbatical. This defeat will burn inside him. It was probably one performance one too many where mistakes caught up with them. I actually see this defeat as not necessarily a bad thing. Of course questions will be asked and as they should be. This NZ side responds well to disappointments. They despise losing. So a very challenging 3 match series against France awaits and a RC where Australia and SA should be stronger with injured players coming back.

So I salute the England performance. Well done. You deserved that victory and you looked a complete side out there today. NZ's season ends on a very sour note but I expect this side to come back from this experience. It's an important lesson to learn that if you don't do the basics well and don't get enough possession, you should get punished. It was good England capitalised out there today and it's great for world rugby. Now England has to build on this performance and go out with belief in themselves and play like world beaters again on a consistent basis. As for the NZ team, this was a disappointing performance today but hats off to this side from their performance overall this season. You were world champions and came out and played like that and even looked better than the side that won last year. But they are not a complete side and of course can be beaten. The aura was broken a little today but I have no doubt that the boys will come back stronger and hungrier next year. kia kaha

The Times just posted this - "Four minutes later another peach had jaws dropping in amazement. Tuilagi again made it carving through McCaw, Carter and Dagg and foudn Christ Ashton who tracked with his usual purpose to splash down."

He did alright, but seems a little high on the praise...

Sausage

As good as England were watching Mccaw flounce off people at the breakdown, Watching the scrums drop like stones and seeing the tight 5 trot around at half pace was certainly not kiwi esque. They were clearly not at the races, and Carter and Smith who looked shadows of themselves only days earlier was excrutiating.

Not taking anything away from England, very good performance but I personally had some compassion for the kiwis.

thebluesmancometh

Agreed that we saw how crucial some players are to this NZ side. Carter,Smith and to an extent Read all had relatively poor games compared to their usual standard and it really showed for NZ across the whole park. I haven't seen DC struggle like he did today with his whole game in a long time.

No shame in this as Read,Carter and Smith are probably the best in the world at their 3 positions!

Carlos

Don't get me wrong England did a good job, and If Wales had done the same I'd be shouting it from the rooftops too But I didn't particularly enjoy watching NZ like that as a neutral (and beleive me I enjoy watching NZ get beat, I was squarely routing for England)

Well done England! Enjoy your win. Looking forward to seeing it.

Kia, Pete, Mintie, Taylor, all Kiwis in fact for a great game and your good grace at the result. ABs the best, brought out England's best too.
I, like so many others never saw this one coming. I'm totally amazed at this historic win and more so the historic scoreline.
(We need the 'Wisden' geeks to report on previous records smashed today)

Also a PS to our cousins Bluesman, Osprey, Morganww, I appreciate your respectful compliments

Meh, one swallow and a magpie does not an Autumn make... or something like that.

In the last 4 weeks, England have left points on the field against Fiji through poor execution; under-estimated and subsequently lost to Aus by not having a game B; knocked SA over, backwards and sideways but still lost by not being able to keep the ball whilst it suited them, and finally won a game today because they did more things right.

The crux of it was spoken by Hansen prior to today's kick-off, no game is easy for NZ because NZ expect to win every game, if they don't they're disappointed, and even if they win by not playing well, they're still disappointed.

On the whole. this has been a disappointing Autumn for England, crow all you like fellow England fans if that's your thing, but for me, today's game doesn't mean a whole lot in the greater scheme.

Could have beaten Aus, should have beaten SA, did beat NZ.

1 out of 3 is so unimportant that nobody has even bothered writing a pithy song about it.

Thanks to Fiji, Australia, South Afrika and New Zealand for your efforts and your sporting excellence, it's always a pleasure to host you all, good luck, play well, but above and beyond everything else, safe journey home.

Very happy with that performance and delighted with the win. However, I'm not entirely convinced by all this "brave new dawn for England" talk. I think we said much the same after the game against Australia at Twickenham a couple of years back, and that didn't exactly work out as planned!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Carlos

Don't get me wrong England did a good job, and If Wales had done the same I'd be shouting it from the rooftops too But I didn't particularly enjoy watching NZ like that as a neutral (and beleive me I enjoy watching NZ get beat, I was squarely routing for England)

Fair comments and I definitely know what you mean about watching NZ struggle as a neutral. Thinking back it will be an interesting game to watch again in terms of NZ to see which players really did struggle. Off the top of my head I though Read was mostly poor but thinking carefully he did a lot of good work in the first half and then seemed to implode in the final quarter with a few noticeable errors.

PJHolybloke

I agree that England could have won vs Aus and should have won vs SA given the possession,territory and slight forward dominance but just the same as this game doesn't erase those errors, those games don't change that this was a very good performance IMO.

The nice thing from my viewpoint at least was the number of players who have shown glimpses that really shone. Tom Youngs, Parling and Wood put in very good performances getting through a lot of the defence and groundwork they're great at. Tuilagi started getting utilised in the way that best uses his skills. Also Mike Brown put in a really good performance that IMO credited much of the stuff he has worked on hugely at Harlequins such as always beating the first man, staying on his feet where possible and he really showed how much his pace has improved from working with Margot Wells.

I have to say this was possibly the best whole team performance by an England team I have ever seen. They kept up the pressure despite shipping 3 tries - they didn't let their heads drop and had an attitude which showed their "No defeat, No surrender" mentality.

There were a few players who really stood out for me today: Dan Cole, Tom Wood, Joe Launchbury, Brad Barritt and Manu Tuilagi. Absolutely superb.

If this form continues into the 6 Nations I am REALLY looking forward to it. If it does, the number of England players on the Lions tour may well increase, and rightfully so.

Jeez, one out of three is not good enough.

That's a fact.

It doesn't matter that England beat NZ today, I expected them to beat Aus and SA previously and therefore I was disappointed before today's kick-off. I'm not made up just because of one performance, been here before, so many times it's not important anymore.

Well played, but it isn't a new beginning, yet.

PJHolybloke wrote:Meh, one swallow and a magpie does not an Autumn make... or something like that.

In the last 4 weeks, England have left points on the field against Fiji through poor execution; under-estimated and subsequently lost to Aus by not having a game B; knocked SA over, backwards and sideways but still lost by not being able to keep the ball whilst it suited them, and finally won a game today because they did more things right.

The crux of it was spoken by Hansen prior to today's kick-off, no game is easy for NZ because NZ expect to win every game, if they don't they're disappointed, and even if they win by not playing well, they're still disappointed.

On the whole. this has been a disappointing Autumn for England, crow all you like fellow England fans if that's your thing, but for me, today's game doesn't mean a whole lot in the greater scheme.

Could have beaten Aus, should have beaten SA, did beat NZ.

1 out of 3 is so unimportant that nobody has even bothered writing a pithy song about it.

Thanks to Fiji, Australia, South Afrika and New Zealand for your efforts and your sporting excellence, it's always a pleasure to host you all, good luck, play well, but above and beyond everything else, safe journey home.

Pretty much agree with this. I still don't know where this team stands, but i'm certain it is absolutely not at a point where it's suddenly going to start winning most games against the SH, like the 2002-03 team did. I guess that's obvious.

Today was a bit of a freak result. We'll need to work out what it means in terms of which players can play against this opposition regularly, what tactics work for us etc. Pretty certain one lesson we've learnt is Launchbury is ready and worthy of a place. Absolutely incredible from such a young guy.

I haven't seen any 'new dawn' type comments just immense pleasure at seeing a young England team rewarded for their efforts in the only way that matters, by winning. That it has come against the ABs does make it special. They have a long way to go from here but a result like this should translate into a belief that anything is possible but that it only happens with total commitment and singlemindedness. The ABs across the board have been generous to a man and I applaud them. They are still the best team in the world by a mile.

Brilliant performance by England today. They were physical in defnece, committed numbers to the rucks and made the All black forwards ineffective for much of the match.

However the AB's reminded us all what they can do with little ball. I actually thought they will run away from England after those two tries, but Barrit's run through the defensive line sparked confidence in the English.

Amazingly Tuilagi made one well timed pass and a bit if a squeeky offload, enough to promise him and Barrit might at last be clicking.

I like Brown a lot.

Hi Biltong. Miss you.

My suspicions that Chef Susie had immigrated to the UK have been confirmed. She's obviously cooking for the allblacks again...

...but seriously now: well done England. Good job. You guys can stop being so pessimistic about coaches, players, captains etc...

(Welcome back Biltong by the way.)

Hi Morg, thanks for the PM.

Biltong
Welcome back mate !
I know you have had a well earned little sabbatical, but welcome back.
Took a literally historic, in fact record, scoreline from England to get us all talking here. I am still stunned as much as the ABs must be.
Let GG know (if you 'see' him) we would all love to hear his 'reasons' for this lucky result.

You don't really want his response mate (Suzie is well and truly thrown about)

PS: thanks for flying Suzie in to do the biltong sandwiches for the ABs.

gregortree wrote:PS: thanks for flying Suzie in to do the biltong sandwiches for the ABs.

It was from the same pizza shop mate, it is sacraledge to poison Biltong, besides, those Kiwi's only eat Lamb.

First Congrats England well played - clearly the better team today.
Second - while it may only be 1/3 you can still enjoy today for today.
Third - who knows what this may lead to not much point writing you own team of yet.

Fourth - a lot of people have written about the seemingly unbeatableness of the ABs this year. I'm not sure why. Others I think have more accurately pointed to the inconsistency in the team this year. While this is their first loss for the year they've had a few poor games that were saved by moments of brilliance. We saw some of that again today but this time the other team had a few moments of brilliance as well.

So much for whining kiwis being bad losers. Much credit.

Well done the women as well for getting the whitewash. The All Blacks really did show at times what they can do and when they turned it on our tackling was way too poor. But fortunately either English pressure or fatigue (most likely a mix of the two) meant that was few and far between.

Hood83 wrote:

PJHolybloke wrote:Meh, one swallow and a magpie does not an Autumn make... or something like that.

In the last 4 weeks, England have left points on the field against Fiji through poor execution; under-estimated and subsequently lost to Aus by not having a game B; knocked SA over, backwards and sideways but still lost by not being able to keep the ball whilst it suited them, and finally won a game today because they did more things right.

The crux of it was spoken by Hansen prior to today's kick-off, no game is easy for NZ because NZ expect to win every game, if they don't they're disappointed, and even if they win by not playing well, they're still disappointed.

On the whole. this has been a disappointing Autumn for England, crow all you like fellow England fans if that's your thing, but for me, today's game doesn't mean a whole lot in the greater scheme.

Could have beaten Aus, should have beaten SA, did beat NZ.

1 out of 3 is so unimportant that nobody has even bothered writing a pithy song about it.

Thanks to Fiji, Australia, South Afrika and New Zealand for your efforts and your sporting excellence, it's always a pleasure to host you all, good luck, play well, but above and beyond everything else, safe journey home.

Pretty much agree with this. I still don't know where this team stands, but i'm certain it is absolutely not at a point where it's suddenly going to start winning most games against the SH, like the 2002-03 team did. I guess that's obvious.

Today was a bit of a freak result. We'll need to work out what it means in terms of which players can play against this opposition regularly, what tactics work for us etc. Pretty certain one lesson we've learnt is Launchbury is ready and worthy of a place. Absolutely incredible from such a young guy.

It might not be a freak result, we didn't lose by that much against Oz and Sa. I'm not saying that we'll start beating them, but I think it shows we're improving.

On the basis of statistics nathan, a freak result is what it is.

Beat Fiji, beat one of Aus or SA AND NZ and it's progress with a blip against Aus or SA.

As things stand, it's a blip against NZ, and all but 2 of their players were unwell this week.

Forgive me, I'm not overwhelmed.

springboard,development,youth.....think those words pj...

PJHolybloke wrote:On the basis of statistics nathan, a freak result is what it is.

Beat Fiji, beat one of Aus or SA AND NZ and it's progress with a blip against Aus or SA.

As things stand, it's a blip against NZ, and all but 2 of their players were unwell this week.

Forgive me, I'm not overwhelmed.

So if Waldrom had got the ball down against Australia, or the ball hadn't deflected off Pietersen's knee like that, then that would affect your view of today's result?

I haven't seen anyone try to claim that England are suddenly the best team in the world, but that was an extremely impressive performance today. Can't we just enjoy it for that, without worrying too much about next year?

youth, promise, future, development...

Yep, seen 'em all at one stage or another.

Here's the deal, if England win 4 out of 5 in the 6N and win all three games during next years AI's, I'll be happy.

If the non-Lions tourists come back from Argentina with some winning numbers, and those that will be lucky enough to go to Aus get some rewards with the Lions, I'll be even happier.

Until then, I'll be keeping it real.

PJHolybloke wrote:youth, promise, future, development...

Yep, seen 'em all at one stage or another.

My point was exactly the opposite of that though. Let's just enjoy today's result without agonising over what it means for the future.

thomh wrote:

PJHolybloke wrote:On the basis of statistics nathan, a freak result is what it is.

Beat Fiji, beat one of Aus or SA AND NZ and it's progress with a blip against Aus or SA.

As things stand, it's a blip against NZ, and all but 2 of their players were unwell this week.

Forgive me, I'm not overwhelmed.

So if Waldrom had got the ball down against Australia, or the ball hadn't deflected off Pietersen's knee like that, then that would affect your view of today's result?

I haven't seen anyone try to claim that England are suddenly the best team in the world, but that was an extremely impressive performance today. Can't we just enjoy it for that, without worrying too much about next year?

Nope, I wouldn't be so obtuse as to boil either defeat down to individual errors.

In the game against Aus, England did many things well, but when it came down to executing moves inside the Aus 22, it just didn't happen, when it came down to putting pressure on their linout or scrum, England got pumped, when it came down to spotting the odd outside break or overlap, it went upspotted.

In the game against SA, England took a good defensive line speed into the fray, they kicked when circumstances dictated, they didn't kick badly, they didn't chase badly, they defended well, they had posession and territory to burn, the set piece statistics were positive, apart from the fact that Tom Youngs couldn't find his arse with both hands and the scrum had a reversing alarm on it second half.

Sloppy is sloppy, when it's performed by so-called professionals, it becomes indefensible.

England have little in the way of forward momentum, despite all the opportunities they were given.

PJHolybloke wrote:youth, promise, future, development...

Yep, seen 'em all at one stage or another.

Here's the deal, if England win 4 out of 5 in the 6N and win all three games during next years AI's, I'll be happy.

If the non-Lions tourists come back from Argentina with some winning numbers, and those that will be lucky enough to go to Aus get some rewards with the Lions, I'll be even happier.

Until then, I'll be keeping it real.

But its not so black and white. Yes a end result of the game is a win or loose but there are differing performances in between those and i believe England are starting to improve. As everyone repeatedly says, nobody is calling England world beaters and I think everyone is "keeping it real"

It's a long haul to the top nathan, and for me, 2 out of 4 in the AIs and 1 out of 3 against the big boys, is not good enough.

It doesn't mean anything in its isolated pocket of performance, England were poor against SA and even more poor against Aus the week before that. for me I would have been more impressed if England had beaten Aus, smashed SA and come close against NZ.

I'm pleased England won yesterday, I'm almost always pleased when they win, but this team needs to put together a string of similar performances during the 6N for me to see yesterday's result as anything other than a blip.

Way to go PJ- setting high standards there...Consistency sure is the holy grail

Good to breathe the win it sometimes though as well...

True enough T-man, I am happy that England won and it's nice to get a win against New Zealand and particularly such a strong NZ team.

It also shouldn't be overlooked, that it was the best game of rugby in the AI's so congratulations to both teams for that.

Before the AI's started I said that 3 out of 4 would be considered a good return, so it stands to reason that 2 out of 4 isn't a good return. If England had played well against Aus or SA I would have been less disappointed, but the sad fact is that England just weren't very good at all during both of those games. They did show the odd glimpse, but that just isn't good enough, to lack the accuracy and to be so sloppy in executing moves at this level is just sub-standard. The intensity and physicality was fine, but without the craft and the completion, you have nowt.

Yesterday's game proved one thing and one thing only, "on their day..."

If this is to mean anything at all, the squad have to take this level of performance forward to the 6N and finish top 2 through being consistently good, to really lay down a marker they should be aiming for a grand slam, they do have a couple of tricky away games though, Wales and Ireland, so they have to win one of those to be considered a good team going forward.

Take it easy bud.

PJ

You want to try being Welsh, I wanted 4/4 and got 100% what I wanted, just the exact opposite!!

When you look at performances too the Aus performance becomes that much more unbeleivable at twickers when comparing it to the rest of their games, they really did give every ounce and just pipped you guys so I wouldn't be too downheartened about that loss, the Kiwi game you just need to celebrate, but the SA defeat would be the dissapointment IMHO!

why you trying to call me a wum- you cannot just preaise us can you!!

even on here you are saying you felt sorry for the kiwis!1

jeasus- they win every game!! and you feel sorry for them.. I really dont think fans of the best team in the world want your sympathy at all!!!!

I take it your issue is only with england- for once just give us some flaming credit- Your just jealous- get over it!

Wonderful performance and fantastic result

This gives all the home nations some hope and confidence that if you go into a match believing you should win............ then you can


WELL DONE ENGLAND

Mystir

You talking to me? re read my post buddy, I think youve definately got your wires crossed.

Good to see some fans giving England the praise they deserve.

thebluesmancometh wrote:PJ

You want to try being Welsh, I wanted 4/4 and got 100% what I wanted, just the exact opposite!!

When you look at performances too the Aus performance becomes that much more unbeleivable at twickers when comparing it to the rest of their games, they really did give every ounce and just pipped you guys so I wouldn't be too downheartened about that loss, the Kiwi game you just need to celebrate, but the SA defeat would be the dissapointment IMHO!

I love Welsh rugby Bluesman, Gareth is my favourite all-time player, Welsh rugby is where Bath found their inspiration for their 15 man game of the 80's and 90's and Wales games rarely fail to entertain, yesterday's game was a turgid exception, but you can't have everything.

I think both teams flatter to deceive at times, and both have great potential, as do Ireland and Scotland for that matter, the potential for great rugby is here, all around us, BUT, until our players get their heads around the level of accuracy and ruthless execution of go-forward ball that is required to consistently win at Test level, they will always play second fiddle to the big 3 in the SH. I think the first and biggest hurdle is to believe that you can produce that level of accuracy, but 100% pure belief is a big ask.

The SH countries regularly play each other, and are used to executing game plans with great accuracy and a high tempo as it's the only way they can stay in touch with NZ, all of our teams need to raise the bar in terms of expectation and minimum standards, and then and only then can we all move forward in pursuit of the top 3.

We all have to shake off the "plucky loser" mindset and stick it in the bin next to the "on our day" excuse, we all need to look at the SH teams and say very quietly, but very positively "Yeah, you're good, but so are we and we're coming to get you now."

It's the only way.

PJ

Agree totally but IMHO accuracy amounts to skill levels just not being good enough. It is no coincidence that Scotland England and Wales tend to have the same issues in the last few years, they are all following the UKCC courses and every child is being coached exactly the same way.

The difference between our junios system infrastructure and the SH teams is that we produce 1,2 maybe 3 complete players squad, the SH seem to produce 10+ and no matter how big, fast, strong we become it never tends to make up for the defecit for sustained periods. We get the odd result ala England yesterday but we don't have the quality in the UK produced enough to compete regularly.

But that debate is for another exhausting thread, this is for the congratulations of England and please beleive me when I say I am very happy for you guys!!!

I go into most NH/SH games hoping the NH team would win, and off the back of a number of Kiwi games (mainly including the disgrace that is Joubert) I really wanted England to win, so congrats to all, hope all your heads are very sore today

Its about building on from the previous- a narrow defeat is only good if you follow it up!

The only team that can do this is england.. sorry the rest of ya(france included)

england have the quality, what we dont have is the competition to retain a standard!

England need the other teams to get better to help us get better!

Blues just be honest- i would respect your opinion more- You really didnt want england to win!

you keep banging on about it - but it isnt the case!

myster

Go back through the threads pre game, I predicted England to win by 5-7, but of course your too much of a wum to actually discuss anything balanced, now go away the adults are talking.

Do you know what wum means?

I have known posters to get baned for calling others wums!!

and i am certainly not wumming. Stop getting personal an all..(if you dont know what i am talking about- your calling me a child- thats personal)

This will be a freindly request myster, please stop following me from thread to thread, I will not respond to you anymore tonight mate, thanks

Thats good - i really dont wanna talk to ya!

I am very happy with that soloution- but do yourself a favour and do not respond to any off mine in the future.. Your not worth it!

If you didnt realise i am on these threads because i am english and i am happy by the win.. I am trying to disciss the game. Your getting all freaked out- lets end it there..

Yeah, and assuming you're old enough to drive, when you get in a car and shut the door - does the other one fall off?

Just askin.

Bluesman, it has to start with the kids. Respect.

PJHolybloke wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:PJ

You want to try being Welsh, I wanted 4/4 and got 100% what I wanted, just the exact opposite!!

When you look at performances too the Aus performance becomes that much more unbeleivable at twickers when comparing it to the rest of their games, they really did give every ounce and just pipped you guys so I wouldn't be too downheartened about that loss, the Kiwi game you just need to celebrate, but the SA defeat would be the dissapointment IMHO!

I love Welsh rugby Bluesman, Gareth is my favourite all-time player, Welsh rugby is where Bath found their inspiration for their 15 man game of the 80's and 90's and Wales games rarely fail to entertain, yesterday's game was a turgid exception, but you can't have everything.

I think both teams flatter to deceive at times, and both have great potential, as do Ireland and Scotland for that matter, the potential for great rugby is here, all around us, BUT, until our players get their heads around the level of accuracy and ruthless execution of go-forward ball that is required to consistently win at Test level, they will always play second fiddle to the big 3 in the SH. I think the first and biggest hurdle is to believe that you can produce that level of accuracy, but 100% pure belief is a big ask.

The SH countries regularly play each other, and are used to executing game plans with great accuracy and a high tempo as it's the only way they can stay in touch with NZ, all of our teams need to raise the bar in terms of expectation and minimum standards, and then and only then can we all move forward in pursuit of the top 3.

We all have to shake off the "plucky loser" mindset and stick it in the bin next to the "on our day" excuse, we all need to look at the SH teams and say very quietly, but very positively "Yeah, you're good, but so are we and we're coming to get you now."

It's the only way.

England beat the All Blacks on their own. They didn't need help from Wales, Scotland, Ireland or France. I really don't like this NH v SH thing that just grows and grows on these threads as the years go by.

We're all Individual Nations... France certainly regards itself as such and profits accordingly from running its house in its own way, plays to its own style and doesn't get bogged down looking across shoulders at the competition over across the English channel and the Irish sea. When they fight in the 6N you can bet they aren't overly anxious about the competition they face. Everything is designed to be as good a team as they can be (in world terms!) not playing to insular 6N galleries of "derby" affectionados.

Just because the rest of us all speak English and live close to each other doesn't mean we approach these things in some uniform pattern whereby if one of us fall, we all fall. That attitude of almost incestuous interest in each others failures or successes and judging our own achievements by them is what I feel is actually impeding all of us.

In that regard, I have to say this Lions tradition is also a thorn in the side of ambitions that should be retained for and given fully to National sides. When ambition to beat the best is often held back in hope of gaining a 'hallowed' Lions jersey then for me at least that's symbolic of the failure of these nations to stand up for themselves as individual entities.

Forget the mediocre balancing act that takes place each year between each other...look out into the world all the time..even during the 6N. Perform as you might like to perform against the very top sides... if that's England in any given year, then so be it - they're the target for that season or seasons. But if it's SA or NZ, then they should be the sides on the agenda when we plan to show what we can do in every 6N. If it's not the rugby that would unsettle the very top two or three sides then it simply isn't good enough - even though it's good enough to win a Grand Slam. If the standard isn't high enough to worry the top sides then cheering a Grand Slam is just delusion. There should be nothing 'we' about what we try to do as Nations. We're on our own..and I'd personally love that attitude to increase actually not dissolve away into the coziness of the Lions mentality.