How did your team perform against your expectations?

There was a big thread just before the AIs started about what people expected from their team, what would be deemed as a good Autumn etc.

New Zealand - Hoped for a clean sweep and an unbeaten 2012. Without putting together a complete game entered the final week 3/3 and with expectations high. A combination of a long season, a fantastic display by England and perhaps norovirus they were finally beaten. That will really put their knickers in a twist, but surely a decent Autumn.

South Africa - With 3 (close) wins from 3 games surely there can be no quibbling about the results. Do bok fans worry about the way they played or happy to secure a 100% record with the injuries they had to contend with.

Australia - After a thrashing by France manged to sneak 3 wins on the bounce. Were the better team against England but struggled with Italy and only sneaked the win over Wales with a very late and apparently controversial try.

France - Thrashed Australia followed up by workmanlike wins over Argentina and Samoa. Must be pleasing for St Andre?

England - Before the AIs started I felt that 2 wins would be par and the minimum we should be looking for. That we got it with a win ove rthe World Champions provides great optimism for the future. But the defeats against Aus and SA must not be forgotten. Decent Autumn but could have been so much better.

Ireland - Will have been dissapointed with how they lost to SA - but excited by the future prospects thrown up in wins over Fiji and Argentina.

Samoa - Huge performance over Wales and a narrow loss to France. Will enjoy their Top 8 seeding for RWC.

Argentina - Good win in Cardiff was followed but disappointing performances in Paris and Dublin.

Wales - Probably less said the better.

Italy - With a win over tonga and decent showings against NZ and Australia a decent Autumn for the Azzuri

Scotland - Oh dear.

So that was my summary - how do you think your team did?

Well as I said above I felt 2 wins was what England had to achieve. (3 would have been great, 4 a miracle). 2 is what we got, so an OK Autumn series, with extra kudos for beating the World champs.

I'm happy with England. There's been a clear progression every week, with guys like Manu and Wood putting themselves in pole-position for the Lions test team by the end, and Launchbury and Youngs doing very well in their first caps. I'd say our player pool is in the best shape since 2003, and we've improved immeasurably at the breakdown (our main weakness under Johnson).

NZ had an excellent year. Not for the results necessarily, but more for the validation of our infrastructure, player management and the ability to continue to deliver players of international level, on tap.

Under the AB hood is a far bigger engine than any other side.

We were also able to enjoy our rugby, play openly even though many sides- including England, played rather dull stuff all year. Surely the England fans are going to agree that the tries in the second half were pure gold as entertainment, compared to getting 5 penalties in the first.

Now try doing that for nearly every single match, and more sometimes. Thats what its like being an AB fan- a hell of a lot of fun- thats the most important aspect of our game. Fast, open, tough...and heaps of fun.

Wales...well perhaps it was a reality check of sorts, maybe we aren't as good as we thought we are, maybe we're just off form?

Without sounding arrogant I, like many, expected 3/4 wins. I thought we had what it takes to beat Argentina and Samoa like we have done on our last few encounters with them, and finally overcoming Australia after a few tight games against them on the trot which could have gone either way.

We didnt perform, we couldnt get the basics right, we played tactically naively, selection was a bit suspect, key players injured or off form. I'd like to say I'm looking forward to the 6nations, however playing France away and if England play like they did against the All Blacks I cant see us having much fun.

IronMike wrote:Wales...well perhaps it was a reality check of sorts, maybe we aren't as good as we thought we are, maybe we're just off form?

Without sounding arrogant I, like many, expected 3/4 wins. I thought we had what it takes to beat Argentina and Samoa like we have done on our last few encounters with them, and finally overcoming Australia after a few tight games against them on the trot which could have gone either way.

We didnt perform, we couldnt get the basics right, we played tactically naively, selection was a bit suspect, key players injured or off form. I'd like to say I'm looking forward to the 6nations, however playing France away and if England play like they did against the All Blacks I cant see us having much fun.

I don't think that's arrogant (you're not English after all ). I think 3 wins for Wales would have been a very reasonable prediction. I would have said a win against the All Blacks was off the cards whatever but after today...

Disappointing for England regarding the 2nd and 3rd games. Things weren't quite clicking. Any win against All Blacks is fantastic but in the grand scheme of things were at the same point as in 2010 (following back to back wins over Australia, including away). That was followed by the first 6 nations win in 8 years. We'll see. All we need now are injuries to all our key players that stepped up in this game. That's what usually happens.

Hammer

I would say that we're in a better position than 2010. We seem to have developed some forwards that can match the Boks and All Blacks for physicality, and it's a much younger team than Johnson's. Realistically there was always going to have to be a clear-out after the world cup, as Moody, Easter, Sheridan, Thompson, Tindall, Cueto, Deacon etc weren't going to be around forever internationally. Nowadays we have a whole squad of players with most of their international careers ahead of them.

That's not to say that we're nailed on for the Six Nations, but we're in a position to be competitive for the remaining world cup cycle now, without too much change.

Well I am very proud of the Wallabies, and a great send off to Sharpe today, thanks mate for your help to the side over the years. Giving him the last kick was a great gesture.

After the early season games against Scotland and Wales I admit I was disappointed in the side, I felt there was no spirit, no fight, and the handling skills were terrible, and I took it out on Deans a bit. But I was wrong and think he has built a side with team spirit. Yes he has dampened out the adventurous back play the Wallabies were known for, but I think, ever sine the game against the Pumas, the squad at last looked like they were working for each other. Yes we got tonked by France, and we're defo a side in early build stage, but I am so proud of them.

Every game we've played in the AI the side was described as poor, and even when we win we were not the better side, just lucky and the losing side did not deserve to have lost against the Wallabies, not from the oppo players themselves but from just a few of their supporters. But for a side in transit, stripped of a fair numbers of its stars, I think we have done Australian rugby proud this AI.

Well done Wallabies you good fellas, and enjoy your retirement Sharpe, have a good rest all the players, 15 tests is a lot to get thru in a year, specially for a side that started the year berift of its better players from injuries, but we stuck it thru the spring games and the RC and here's looking forward to next year!

Thanks to all the countries for a great AI tour, and good luck to you guys in your 6Ns.

Ireland's 2nd half against South Africa was very disappointing. To build the platform for a win and then fail to score a point in the 2nd half was very annoying. But a 4 point defeat to the worlds second best team wasn't a disastrous result for an injury stricken Ireland side. We saw some exciting new talent on display against Fiji and the Puma's, but to be honest both sides were very poor against us so it doesn't really tell us how we'll go against better sides, although it does bode well.

We still have the same essential problem as before. We can rack up tries for fun against weaker teams which suggests the attacking ability is there. But we look completely clueless with the ball against good sides with good defences.

We can look forward to Ferris, O'Connell, O'Driscoll, O'Brien and Kearney returning from injury which will surely improve us. And Healy is standing out more and more as a world class player. And he's not even close to the usual peak age of a prop, so might get even better. And Sexton is finally starting to get closer to his Leinster self when wearing green.

But our utter inability to threaten a well drilled and motivated defence is still a problem. We are far to predictable. Hopefully the displays of the youngsters like Gilroy and Zebo will convince Kidney to loosen the conservative reigns much more in the 6 Nations. Because the default defensive mindset has gotten us nowhere since the RWC win over Australia. And I think a more ambitious and aggressive approach would suit us much more.

I said before the Autumn series for our year to have been measured withbany measure of success we gad to win all three.

We looked comfortable in defence, oir forwards have domianted in some stages, but yet their collective is not there yet. They aren't aggressive enough in attack and often doesn't create momentum which in turn leads to stationary ball.

Meyer still has work to do in the backline.

But three wins ebdof year means of the top three we are the only team going home from this tour unbeaten. That says something.

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wales.... as expected for me because we have been so predictable , plus management have picked off form players.

rhys priestland, key at 10 , woe full ,biggar should have been no 1 to start, superb at club level, earned a chance, could have lifted the early match performances, posters on here dont like the guy , but should look to whats best for wales , its not a personality contest.

For England I thought two wins would be par for the course, three excellent and four near impossible.

Looking at the fact that we won 2 plus beat NZ means I should probably feel better than I do currently. Same as LondonTiger I just can't shake the annoyance of losing to a below par Aus side, and also losing to SA when we did everything we needed to do to win the match except be precise when it counted.

All in all for such an inexperienced side 2 wins from 4 tough matches and the performance yesterday is pretty good and should bode well for the future. Lets just hope we carry that into the 6N and also the players carry this into their clubs to lift the jeff!

Before the Ais kicked off i thought England would get at least 1 win possibly 2.
Never in my wildest dreams did i think that England would beat NZ.

I thought we could possibly beat Australia or the Springboks. However when we lost to of those both teams i thought that was that. But not only for England to beat NZ at Twickerham, but by the largest score ever. With such an inexperience team in terms of Cap's per the whole team. It is just incredible.

england got better each week. no disrespect to SA but we had way more of the game and a freak try cost us.. although SA did enough to win~(and thats all they can do so well played), they didnt look the better team!

I had this feeling we would lose to both and then beat NZ and i was spot on!

I have no idea how i came up with that prediction but i got it, so it was exactly my prediction anyway!

wales are gonna be gutted- but at least the 6N's isnt far away,

The kiwis will be reeling if truth be told- if only because they have to wait 6 months for another game!! its gonna make there break less enjoyable!

disappointed but I feel comfortable that at least 50% of the NH feels disappointed with their teams performances right now.

Scotland could've/should've done better. Although sometimes I wonder if they actually could to be honest...

ireland england, france and italy feel fine pal.. thats 66% happyish!

For England - expected to get 2, but not for one of those to be NZ. The most encouraging thing, though - and this is the first time in a long time - is that our performances got better the longer the team was with the England set up.

Fiji - not great performance but against weak opposition it was enough for us to win pretty convincingly.

Aus - second best against a very fired-up Aus team. With luck of the bounce etc, there's an argument that we could have snuck it, but we didn't deserve to win.

SA - we were the better team but lost because of lack of composure, unlucky bounce and frankly, SA having that bit more experience. Our performance was much improved than against Aus, which made me a fair bit happier, despite the result.

NZ - I'll admit to having written England off, both before the match and at 15-14. But what a cracking performance, absolutely ideal tactics, decent leadership and a whole heap of guts and commitment. Maybe a bit lucky that NZ had slightly dodgier guts...

So, 2/4 was, statistically, as expected. But the nature of those 2 was one was a poor value win, the other an exceptional value win. That, combined with the progressive improvement means I'm happy. Obviously it's important how we fare in the 6N but I'm very hopeful.

Our main area of concern is our attack..

It has been commented on a number of times during the season that South shows little variation in attack and almost no creativity, Morne Steyn has long been criticised for his inability to get his back line moving, and the same criticism has befallen Patrick Lambie in recent weeks. The problem however starts at the rucks where the “collective” doesn’t use the ruck to create momentum, fast ball or clean ball.

This is where the All Blacks come into the picture. When they want clean ball, the cleaners don’t just bind onto the player on the ground, they ruck “over” him, hence clearing any and all prospective pilferers out of the way, this manner ensures that the distance from the rear most feet to the ball is greater and therefore the pilferer cannot interfere with the clean out of the ruck.

That in my view is smart play and smart execution by the All Blacks, something not only South Africa but every other nation should be doing.

The Springbok pack also puts more physicality into defending rucks than attacking rucks, which often means the half back gets stationary ball and then clears to a static back line.

It is all in the timing of hitting and clearing the rucks, once that improves, Lambie will be so much more effective on attack. The other problem of course is South Africa is in dire need of a Jack Russell at the base of the scrum.

Pienaar in my view is too much in a non plussed mode to provide quick ball.

Meyer still has a lot of work to do with his back line and hopefully he will focus more on selecting distributors in the midfield. Jean de Villiers is a crash ball runner who rarely if ever looks to offload and Juan de Jongh himself isn’t flash when it comes to distribution either.

Zane Kirchner isn’t the type of fullback that has successfully joined the Bok backline, we need someone in the mould of Andre Joubert who can spark the backline and create those overlaps.

Considering South Africa scored only 23 tries this season, and most of those were either individual plays or one pass moves, there is a lot of work to be done in this area.

Not surprised by Scotland - At least now Robinson has gone we can get a decent coash

TJ wrote:Not surprised by Scotland - At least now Robinson has gone we can get a decent coash

As an Englishman living in Scotland for a long time, I have a soft spot for your team. I am also not convinced that Robbo is a head coach/selector, but is clearly a good coach in the right circumstances. There we are, all the caveats out of the way, so...

Didn't he do a reasonable job of bringing in new players who proved themselves very capable (Denton, Visser) as well as capping a a host of other, young players? The 6N was a dire result, but performances seemed to be getting better and, bar the loss against Tonga, I don't honestly think any of the results went against expectations, save the great result against SA a while back.

While a lot of improvements have been made to schoolboy access to rugby over recent years, there is still a fundamental issue of the "missed generation" of players and small playing base (hence bringing Denton & Visser in is necessary for Scotland, unlike England). I guess expectations should be high, but are they too high? Scotland remains in a rebuilding phase and will come good, but it's going to take time and a lot of hard work.

Difficult to put a slant on comparisons of effort and performance in the AIs (which is what a realistic reading of expectations would require) given that there was no real continuity in what sides played what sides or on the number of games played, or indeed in a unified opinion of just what form each side was in coming into the season - Aussies certainly weren't on form..and I'd even suggest the All Blacks were less than fully interested for the duration.

All I can say is that with Ireland, a narrow loss to SA (most of which happened when Heaslip was on his yellow card duty!!) and then a hail of tries scored by nine different players in the next two games (second only to the All Blacks themselves on that score - 15 to 17, I think)..accomplished in 3 not four games.... I'm happy enough for now.

It has absolutely no bearing on the 6N this far out but there has certainly been progress in how Kidney is now allowing this team to play. He specifically said that he was pleased the players didn't get into a dour muscle fight with the Argentinians but spread them instead. A dramatic turn about in phraseology from Kidney who is more often heard alluding to the old maxim of 'earning the right' to go wide. If you have the players who can play, you've already earned the right to try it from the off. Also the performances from some of the younger players was a delight. Many of us have always claimed there are players on the fringes waiting to be given the green-light on a much more aggressively mobile game.

It might be yet another false dawn but I think finally the rudiments of a real new Ireland side are in the making with plenty of time now left to finely tune something genuinely competitive for the next WC.

Ireland.... hmm probably better than expected overall, not so much in terms of results but the manner of the performances against Argentina and Fiji.

The SA result was very disappointing, a game I probably expected to lose but one that we perhaps should have won.

Fiji was probably the key one, with the young guys coming in and playing with a verve, confidence and intelligence that we've been lacking for some time, probably since beating England in 2011.

That gave the senior guys a kick up the bollix I think and led to a much improved display against a tired, but very strong, Pumas side who would have fancied their chances to add our scalp to Wales.

Overall more positives than negatives with many fringe and younger players stepping up to the plate in the absence of a lot over our big names.

The big challenge is to take the form and energy we showed against the Pumas into the 6N. If we can we'll be competitive otherwise it will be another miserable and erratic campaign I fear.

pjm1 wrote:

TJ wrote:Not surprised by Scotland - At least now Robinson has gone we can get a decent coash

As an Englishman living in Scotland for a long time, I have a soft spot for your team. I am also not convinced that Robbo is a head coach/selector, but is clearly a good coach in the right circumstances. There we are, all the caveats out of the way, so...

Didn't he do a reasonable job of bringing in new players who proved themselves very capable (Denton, Visser) as well as capping a a host of other, young players? The 6N was a dire result, but performances seemed to be getting better and, bar the loss against Tonga, I don't honestly think any of the results went against expectations, save the great result against SA a while back.

No - he delayed getting some of the young players into the team when they were on form and ready and continually selects out of position He only played the youngsters when forced into it. Weir has been in the squad twice and dropped twice without a minute of gametime Its probably one of Robinsons worst attributes his refusal to play youngsters when they are ready for it

England - definitely a mixed bag.
We were always going to beat Fiji, and did so very competently.
The Aus game was the big disappointment, as this is a team we are capable of beating, but we just didn't play very well and they came back fighting after being humped by France the previous weekend.

The Bok game offered some encouragement that (if nothing else) selection was going the right way - Launchbury in the 2nd row, Wood and Morgan in the back row and we suddenly had a pack that was a physical match for the Boks. Better goal kicking from Flood and the ball bouncing in different ways and the result could easily have been reversed, although the performance in attack remained stilted.

Against NZ - well, everything clicked, and that is the best England have played since the SCW / MJ era. The question now is whether it is like the footballers winning 5-1 in Germany: a freak one-off performance that we don't match consistently.

Overall - would have been a seriously disappointing AI series but for the shock of last weekend.
The big positive - the pack has really come together in the last two games, and looks to have much more of a physical edge to it. Put Youngs and the backline on the front foot on Saturday, and suddenly we looked a far better side than we have for years.
Mike Brown was a revelation as a winger. Be interesting to see what Lancaster does once Foden is fit.

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A huge pile of poopie


At least we will go into 2013 as non 'dark horses'

brown has impressed me in two games- he has the extra strength for me.. i cannot advocate given his place back to foden. This guy is just gonna get better and better

mystiroakey wrote:brown has impressed me in two games- he has the extra strength for me.. i cannot advocate given his place back to foden. This guy is just gonna get better and better

Myst

Agree about Brown's strength - he really drives his legs in contact and gains those extra few yards that make the difference between a fight to recycle and getting good ruck ball.

Once Foden is fit, we will have an interesting selection dilemma, especially given how we have been trying to use Goode as a supplementary playmaker (although I didn'tsee so much of that on Saturday as in the previous matches). Can Foden do the same sort of job as Goode (he was used as a midfield distributor by MJ, so maybe, especially with his old SH skills)? Foden offers more pace, which I'm always keen on at this level, but is clearly less of a quality kicker than either Goode or Brown.

One part of the squad where we actually look to have some realistic strength (along with the back row - Wood, Morgan, Robshaw with Croft, Haskell, Waldrom, Johnson, possibly Steffon Armitage as backup).

I have somewhat limited knowledge of rugby- but what i do know is that brown reminds me of a kiwi. He is not afraid to run, and if he is tackled he drives through em gaining or he slips them.. Your right in the fact that its easy for the lads to recycle ball after his lttle spurts. The fact is if you can do this v SA and then NZ- your good enough!!

foden has been part of a failed england set up- not saying he isnt great but - brown is full of confidence, yeah its only two games i have noticed him and watched him- but as i say v the two best in the world- this is no coincidence!

Riskysports wrote:

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A huge pile of poopie


At least we will go into 2013 as non 'dark horses'

Wales played one good half of Rugby against an NZ team unloading their bench. I don't think even the most bipolar Welsh fan was expecting it to go this badly.

A question to anybody who may know - had the WRU already agreed to let Gatland take time off for the Lions before his window cleaning debacle? I don't think we'd be in such a bad state if he'd been in charge for the summer tour.

that england game you lads played at twickers was so sweet!!
and trust england were really playing ok at that point!

whats up my welshie dudes!¬