Where to Now

After todays Famous Victory today where are we[They]now,it was said before the AI`s.
They would show where England stood in the world,that a minimum of 3 wins would
be considered a pass mark.No doubt much will be said of Robshaws Captaincy decisions
over the last couple of weeks.Ruefully thinking what if and 4 from 4,after the promising
but error strewn victory over Fiji.Ireland put that into perspective,outplayed but a very
close loss to Australia.The hustle and bustle and very narrow loss to SA finally the great
Victory today.Lancaster deserves a huge vote of confidence for the way England are proceeding.
Without getting ahead of ourselves only France who on current form will win the 6Ns are ahead of them in the NH.
What of the AllBlacks after the hype ,on out of sorts error strewn game by them the like
of which has been threatened all year.Usually after being over hyped they have underperformed
but done enough to win.Today the tanks were empty,one foot on the Bus.?an over hyped team
that has`nt been tested this year fully?an exhausted team at the end of a great year?or a team
that really isn`t that good?As an AllBlack fan i`ve never been convinced of the invincibility of
ANY AllBlack team.I`ve seen many and unlike some count the losses which are relatively few
and congratulate the winners.Lancaster today had a very good game plan to sap the energy of
a side unable to prepare because of the Tummy Bug.Neither Hansen or McCaw used it as an excuse
BUT a fully fit AB side does`nt blow up like todays did.Where are they now 2013 may well see a levelling
of the playing field.Like 2009 did after the previous RWC in truth I don`t think the AB were worth a 6 point
IRB lead.BUT make no mistake this AB side WILL ride the heights again don`t write them off after this match.
A record of 14,12,1,1,for a season is excellent for ANY side even an AllBlack one and not equalled since 2006.

Alan any AB fan will see this as a one off. Its rare but its happened before. It doesnt signal a trend nor that the ABs are starting to fall behind.

Thats why it doesnt worry me so much. Sometimes things like these are needed to refocus regardless of all the self talk one does. Timing is good in that it means theyll make good use of the planning over the next few months.

I'm happy with the first post Henry efforts of Hansen and this side. We'll go back to winning next year as most other sides have more to 'fix' than us.

I`m not going over the top Taylorman and it was obvious despite denials the bug had its effects.THAT does`nt detract from a superb England win or what might have beens.
This side has achieved nearly as much as 1987 did in half or less the time.
BUT they certainly arn`t the greatest AB side ever,or the best i`ve seen come to that.
I watched the Wales match too what a come down by both potentially great sides.The breakdown was superbly policed by Wayne Barnes at one point there
were 18 penalties given to both sides all from that area.
Surprised he did`nt go to his pocket for a yellow card it was full of blatant professional fouls.
Delivery of the Welsh ball was excruciatingly slow I was screaming at the screen.
A Draw would have been a fair result both sides were so poor ,such a scrappy game.NEITHER of the sides looked or played the way they can and the Wales Lineout?no excuses thats a matter of practice.
With Aus.and SA at near full strength 2013 should be very interesting,of course Nz will be stronger too,with Boric,Slade,and Kahui back in contention plus some young guns getting a run.Taylor [Andre and Tom,Luke Whitelock,Brad Shields,Perenara,Matt Todd to name a few I would like to see in Black.

emack, were you supporting England or NZ?

Still the old ones Cyril,not an original comment in your head ALL BLACKS that does`nt change.NOR does it detract from a brilliant England Victory,England to date 7,2,1,4 lets compare notes AFTER the 6Ns.
Incidentally I WILL be supporting them in that tho maybe not versus Scotland my Scottish side.England have come a long way since July but then so have Ireland and France.
Wales in the 6Ns maybe a different matter but they really do need to fix the lineout.PLus pick back up Locks on the Bench.

Alan - I think that normal service will be resumed next year and the Blackness will horse everyone and take the Rugby Championship again.

This will come to be known as New Zealand's "bad week".

The great thing about rugby is there is no such thing as a certainty,nor should there be.
Saturday was a case of a team with nothing to lose,playing one that has been a bit over hyped.
For several reasons the ABs were unable to do there usual Prep work it showed.
Slow starters all year left themselves too much a mountain to climb,hindsight is great.
But maybe Vito at 6,Crockett for Woodcock,Romano starting and some young legs in midfield.
For whatever reason the allBlacks were`nt at the races all credit to England getting in there faces and staying there.

No panic signs yet Alan. Nobody reacts to disappointment as well as NZ. No need for changes. We will uncover some depth against France at openside and that can't be a bad thing. Romano was most affected by the virus but has shown that he is probably a worthy starting lock against big opposition. Vito is a 7 and 8 but doesn't have the physical presence to be at 6.

As for England, the next time they face NZ, you can be sure that Tuilagi will be a marked man and they have the right attitude going into the breakdown battle. It was a great win for England and now they have to raise the bar of expectation and strive for the excellence they showed against NZ. They will be targets now in the 6N and beyond and everyone will be wary of the threat they can pose. That puts a target on you and England have to respond. Consistency is the key and if they can string performances like that together and take on the might of France and win then they are going to build on confidence and thus performance. Take a step back though and all the good work can quickly unravel and any vital momentum lost.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:No panic signs yet Alan. Nobody reacts to disappointment as well as NZ. No need for changes. We will uncover some depth against France at openside and that can't be a bad thing. Romano was most affected by the virus but has shown that he is probably a worthy starting lock against big opposition. Vito is a 7 and 8 but doesn't have the physical presence to be at 6.

As for England, the next time they face NZ, you can be sure that Tuilagi will be a marked man and they have the right attitude going into the breakdown battle. It was a great win for England and now they have to raise the bar of expectation and strive for the excellence they showed against NZ. They will be targets now in the 6N and beyond and everyone will be wary of the threat they can pose. That puts a target on you and England have to respond. Consistency is the key and if they can string performances like that together and take on the might of France and win then they are going to build on confidence and thus performance. Take a step back though and all the good work can quickly unravel and any vital momentum lost.

Yeah agree. We'd be quite selfish if we started coming up with this or that with the loss. We put every one else through it every time we win so after taking nearly every trophy, losing one AI match is hardly the end of the world. In fact the last 3 matches Ive just been waiting for who it will be because the same side cant keep lifting itself time after time when for every match we face a different side wanting to take our head off. Its too much on the side. The valve must be released now and then to take the pressure off.

Now everyone thinks we're beatable we'll regroup and take on the challenge of winning again.

Its really kind of romantic how we go through this process every so aften dont ya think?

Reality is the Human Frame can do so much with the ever increasing work load
in Super Rugby something has to give.
If that means better squad management and more sabbaticals for key players so be it especiallty at Super level.
ALL the SH sides should be looking at reducing the number of games the play if they are to perform at Test Level.
Three Players were given fitness tests before the England game all were carrying injuries.Aside from the virus effects all 3 under performed that is no slur on England and a compliment those players wanted to play England.
Hindsight is 20/20 and probably at least 2 of those should`nt have started but thats life.
McCaw now vanishes for 6 months after being THE best player of the year whatever the IRB Panel thinks.
IF you think there is a better 7 in NZ than McCaw certainly pick him BUT Sam Cane it isn`t.Currently he still strides the World as THE Number one 7 whatever any one else claims and OZ have some good ones.
Expect them to be foaming at the mouth next year France tho could be a VERY close series with some new faces seen.

I just think in this game today its too much to expect the same guys to keep winning every single match.

Think about it. To not lose a match since the beginning of the World cup- pool play- 3 tough knockouts.
Then a home series against a side who has never, (ever) won a test against them.
Then straight into 6 (7 with the bledisloe 3rd) matches in the RC- 4 home and away against the next 2 best and a very keen up and coming Argie side.
Then off to Europe against another set of teams we havnt lost to in about 30 tests.

Its just too much to expect them to keep on winning.

And remember before the 3N last year mostly the same side went through another run of about 20 on the go.

Frankly, a loss at this point in some ways is good for the side. Reality kicks in and we all get to appreciate these guys are human.

And at the very end of it all, Hore goes and puts the team under huge pressure, then the bug...no disrespect but I can understand why they might not have been at peak for (another) supremely motivated England side ready to take scalps.

Give em a break I say...get back on the bike next year.

"we" and "they" emack- you seem kinda confused pal

Alans been an honourary member since 1954 Mysti...

(psst Alan...dont forget your subs are due in 3 weeks)

No confusion Mysti,All Blacks fan versus ANYONE,then England and Scotland my parentage versus anyone else.Versus each other sometimes Scotland as underdog when the media get above them selves..
Taylorman I don`t expect ANY side to win every match and expected the standard 2 losses at some point this.Just did`nt expect it on saturday BUT alot of factors were against the ABs.
WHEN they come to play with a point to prove the ABs are nye on unstoppable.
BUT that they seldom are only 1996,Nantes 2009,{FRANCE}and first Boks Match 2010,or RWC SF v Australia have we seen the nature of THAT beast.
ONLY First Bledisloe has it been true of them this year,just a series of solid flawed performances.
Some of the youngsters at times beleived the hype they were better players than they yet have achieved.Very promising but not yet the finished article as is to be expected in a debut year.
England now that`s another story,on Paper not the strongest possible team. Indeed many would not have made that imaginary team,BUT the players concerned had added incentive.
NOT just to stick it to the AB`s but to say to Lancaster "Hey what are you worried about i`m better than him".
"I don`t just want to be a squad member I want a starting place"
The danger now is those players will be replaced by the perceived A team and
England may not kick on.
INSTEAD of being carried away with the result,keep both feet on the ground and accept it for what it was.
A Superb victory but a totally unexpected one to the world at large,and aim to do it again every time.
England with exceptions are not expected to produce a win every game and if you don`t your forgiven.
For the AllBlacks and Boks there media don`t forgive them they are expected to win EVERY match.
If NOT you get the dark days of 2009 and calls for Coaches heads as robbie Deans has discovered this year.
P,S .Cheque for Subs in the Post

Thanks Alan, we know youre good for it!

On our Reunion tonight nothing bout praise for the English win and rightfully so. A couple even commented that it was good for the game, good that the AB's will be hurting a bit over the summer etc.

I think a lot of the reasons you dont see a lot of grief from the AB posters and NZers in general is in the last 18 months we've basically done it all. We have the World cup and RC and Bledisloe etc. We dont have to keep proving ourselves to anyone,

I'd say if we werent world champs we'd be on these boards trying to make excuses for the win and even if they actually were fatigued, were hungover from the bug, it just doesnt matter. A loss is a loss is a loss.

So this side has given us so many moments to enjoy, be proud of, celebrate. If we can win with them, we can certainly lose with them now and then- just dont make it a habit!

Well your not exactly reeling from a loss are ya Macky. i suppose you can take comfort in the fact that your no.2/3 team beat em. i suppose its better than any other team doing it!

and lets be honest- england beating then is a bit of a miracle.. i think there is more chance in jeasue coming to earth and giving us eternal life than scotland beating them

odds on at least...

The result was an outlier, it doesnt really prove that much.
But it should be a signal that the All Blacks need to consider where they are going long term, and how much is left in terms of energy and desire in the older squad members...significantly those who will be 33 plus come the next world cup. Frankly with the amount of internationals and travelling tehse guys go through its a miracle they last as long as they do.
The bones of this team have been togetehr a long time, and thats part of its strength. But (as England found out) if you dont start rebuilding that quickly it can suddenly look a real mess.
If a few of the ageing legends decided to take pay days in France and Japan it may not be a bad thing for the long term devleopment of the side. France visiting gives an excellent chance to start bedding some new players in, or promoting the current reserves, ahead of the 4 Nations.

I disagree that it hasnt shown us anything.

The result has reinforced the fact that SL is a brilliant coach and that england have talent.

It has also reinforced the fact that NZ are not untouchable and are not a perfect team.

It doesnt tell us that england are the best in the world.. You need a massive squad and a system that has been tried and tested many games over ..

SL has clearly gone step by step in every game this year, he hasnt pushed anything. and if anyone deserves this end of the year its him..

I love SL.. i can almost forgive him for playing for scotland at age level after this!

SL doesnt come across as innovative - but he does come across as someone who is a great team builder. The greatest difference with Wales right now is that England come across as a team who fight very hard for each other, and Wales come across as a bunch of individuals.

As for Saturday I do think the game will be good for NZ in the long run, and like PSW I do wonder at where NZ will be in a couple of years time. They will never be less than very competitive but there are some players coming to the end of their careers who will be very hard to replace

"England come across as a team who fight very hard for each other, and Wales come across as a bunch of individuals."

and that is a complete reversal of fortunes!!!

NZ will be up there in the short to medium term i feel/fear!

I was harder on the ABs for their victories this year than I was for this loss. I do see it as a good thing to be reminded of their fallibility as they go out of their way to prove their infallibility after performances like last Saturday.

Enlgland did prove what most Kiwi fans had said all along. This side is beatable. You just have to apply pressure on them. That said, whenever you think you have the measure of NZ they retreat into hiding and find a solution to the problem.

People talk of replacing players. That already happened with Mils Muliaina, Brad Thorn, Jerome Kaino, Daniel Carter in many games, Piri Weepu, Ali Williams. We probably will have to replace Richie McCaw, Andrew Hore and Keven Mealamu, Tony Woodcock, Ma'a Nonu, Conrad Smith and a few others but that process is already under way. There's no rebuilding for the future. It's winning all the time that matters. That means getting the right blend of youth and experience. Some players are going to be hard to replace but some players who are the replacements might well be the new Messiah. You never know. What you can rely on is that NZ will be there or thereabouts. Consistency is their greatest hallmark.

The thing is other countries especially look on the RWC as the "Holy Grail" of Rugby.Even today Marc Hinton is saying unless NZ can win one away they are in effect a failure.
Being THE BEST by a considerable margin by the book isn`t good enough for him.Other sides are rebuilding for a RWC,NZ just for the next year and the next.30-31 is now a pensionable age dump them and let the youngsters have a go?
In 2008 post RWC,NZ lost a whole Squad including World number one players at 1,2,5,6,9.10 and on the wings.Plus players who could have been like Nick Evans,etc .who could be now.
This year the outstanding players have been Conrad Smith,and McCaw who has played his best rugby for years.
But Conrad Smith said of Super rugby its a bit of a grind now the July tests were squeezed in between two halves of the Super Series.
It isn`t about replacing the back bone as the fail one by one they will be replaced.
All Black Rugby is about winning EVERY match,not a tournament 3 years away.
THE Best side in World Rugby and the RWC holder has only been the same for any length of time.AB`s 1987=90 and this one with others its been a matter of 6 or so matches at best.
ONLY Mealamu and Hore are of an age to be replaced as a priority and front row forwards have a longer life span than most.

Kia pointed at consistency as the hallmark and thats the key difference.

Replacing players is a positive process for NZ unlike other sides where they never seem to recover from losing a senior player.

The act of bringing a player into the AB environment is such that it brings out the best in players. Some sides say that losing, but in the end its an expression at best, because it isnt supported by their results. For the All Blacks its an embedded tangible concept that consumes the team environment as a group and as individuals.

Thats why I have no problem with replacing anyone over 27 in this side. We have players in every position waiting for their chance. We introduced 10 new players this year, one became the top try scorer for the year by a mile. Another filled our bland 9 position and we have a couple of back ups for Carter and McCaw already. Others were ok, none were failures or didnt get the court time.

In 3 months more names will be falling off the tongue and McCaws French series absence will be ample opportunity for our 7's to come through to try and keep hime out- a real possibility.

Nope, I think we're in good hands. Losses like this to England feel like new beginnings, a fresh start, and the start of yet a new chapter in this story.

My 2 cents.

I regard the loss to England last week in the same category, as the loss in Hong kong 2 years ago to Australia, in both games New Zealand deserved to lose, however the All Blacks seem to refocus and committ better after these periodic losses.

Another point is,I dont think its a co-incidence that England recorded that victory last weekend, as they have spent most of the year playing South Africa, and when the Boks played the ABs in Dunedin earlier on in the year they beat New Zealand everywhere but on the score board.

Yeah agree we could have been on the receiving end in several tests this year- SA in Dunedin, 2nd vs Ireland, Oz at Brissy and Eden Park (if not for Dagg), even argie here were in the match. Each occasion we dug deep, absorbed the onslaught and fought back, sometimes with clinical precison.

We even did this against England- 15-0 down to score two quick tries and its not often a side gets away twice by 15 in the one match against us so that made the difference. One more quick try at 15-14 and I think the back would have been broken. But England prevailed and got in first.

The good thing about our losses last 3 years (other than Brisbane last year) is theres not been a lot on the match other than another W and a bit of pride. We are still winning the big ones when it counts most.

I guess Hansen is really echoing the thoughts of most NZers responses to this loss:

"Though it hurts like hell at the moment it won't do us any harm. It will stop people telling us we're the greatest team ever and all that crap. We'll get down to being an All Black team that worked hard."

The rest of Reasons comments are just dig dig dig though the consistency theme is correct, and Reason, no one is saying England are World beaters- not even the English themselves.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/our-experts/8035091/Forget-nonsense-ABs-still-better-than-England

Ive often wondered? When Mark Reason writes a rugby article, Does he ask himself "who shall I Pizz off today?" or is it "how many people can I pizz off today?".

Mysti asked why I was`nt making a huge fuss about the loss of course it upset me to some extent.BUT it was like the Hong Kong Test or Brisbane where other sides were written off and the preparation was`nt right Pre-match.The IRB awards got most things right team of the year,Coach of the year,the only thing
about Player of the Year they got wrong.BUT when you are short listed 5 times and already hold 3 maybe 4 was overkill even for "Captain Tackles".
The Media by Hyping up this side did`nt help they are NOT the Greatest Ever or even better than the RWC winning side.1987 would come close but for me 1963-4 a much more traditional playing side no seagulls.
I don`t agree the Tight 5 is the AB weakness as Reason says but for Thorn it is the same as the RWC side .
Owen Franks,Woodcock,Crockett,Whitelock,Hore and Mealamu when fully fit
are the equal of any in the world.Props mature and improve age 30 and last usually to 37/8.
Dan Carter has been plagued with niggling injuries since the RWC one,and missed a couple of goals. Overall he had an Average match BUT only by his standards.
Savea has establishid himself as the starting left wing,Romano and Retalick were
criticised for not being Thorn.Detractors should remember he was`nt so clever in 2003 or that he was much of Lineout option ever.
Aron Smith has made a reasonable start his main problem he can`t change his size.People calling him one of the best two 9 `s in the world was plain stupid this
loss will anchor the feet to the ground.
The basics are in place the Set piece solid both Scrum [apart from the odd one]
and Lineout have been good overall.BUT the Tight 5 arn`t Massive so have to have better technique thats one for the Coaches.Perhaps the locking combo is a bit like the Williams/Jack combo two of the same type rather than a jumper and a grunt Lock?
How much did the experimental laws effect the SH sides overall or the interpratations.Certainly there seemed a lot more kicking less keeping ball in hand.
2013 will be a brand new story hopefully as successful but may just be another 2009.As other sides catch up with them now.