Stephen Jones' (Sunday Times) Lions Squad

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Make of it what you will:

FB - Goode, Halfpenny, Kearney
Wing - Bowe, Cuthbert, North, Visser
Centre - Barritt, JD2, BOD, Roberts
FH - Priestland, Sexton
SH - Care, Phillips, youngs
No8 - Denton,m Heaslip
Flankers - Croft, Ferris, Lydiate, Tipuric, Warburton
2nd Row - Charteris, Evans, Gray, Lawes
Hookers - Best, Hartley, Hibbard
Props - Healey, Jones, Ross, Sheridan, Vunipola


Some "interesting" choices.

My changes for what its worth:

FB - Foden, Halfpenny, Kearney
Wing - Bowe, Cuthbert, North, Ashton
Centre - Tuilangi, JD2, BOD, Roberts
FH - Flood, Sexton
SH - Care, Phillips, Murray
No8 - Morgan, Heaslip
Flankers - Wood, Ferris, Lydiate, Tipuric, Warburton
2nd Row - Charteris, Evans, Gray, O'Connell
Hookers - Best, Ford, Rees
Props - Healey, Jones, Ross, Cole, Corbisero, James

That is such a strange lions team, the main issues for me are...

NO TUILAGI

Cuthbert?? Really he's so soft, but then so is Visser. Ashton has to have a strong case right now!

Rhys Preis...

Care and Youngs is a strange call, Blair or Laidlaws versatilty would be prefered for 1 of those IMHO.

Croft??? Over Robshaw, no chance. And why would Tipuric or Warburton oust Rennie?!

That lock combo is severely lacking in any nous or muscle!!

No COLE?? WHAT A PILE OF SHIP LIONS TOUR WITHOUT THE BEST TH ON THE PLANET RIGHT NOW!!!

Who would Ashton's case be stronger than? I think there are better wingers in England right now.

Morgannwg

As in who?

Ashton is a proven player and to be honest.. his lack of tries hasn't really been down to him, he's been running good lines all season, its just that the team haven't been giving him opportunites/been on his wave length.

Personally I think Ashton has to travel... if not test. Why, because he's not your typical wing. He mixes things up and pops up all over he park and will score tries where teams without him won't put away... as the players won't be in position.

It comes from his league background.... other wingers are conventional, they do predictale things... would you expect Bowe to do what Ashton does in terms of his intuitive tracking??? No but Bowe is still one hell of a player I admit and will travel if fit.

To beat the Aussies, the lions will have to mix it up a little.... a guy like Ashton is that sort of guy and he has a very good record too.

Cuthbert for me is just too raw, too naive. He doesn't have a rugby brain and is a poor tackler. In yesterdays game he did a break and had time but rather than look for the man the space he just ran straight and the moment was lost. Sure he can finish but to beat the best you need a little more.

Sharples is better and unique. The lions should probably take a finisher, it'll be between Visser and Ashton who apart from finishing are both very average.

I had to laugh reading that squad; well some of it anyway.

The 6N will be a better reference point. But after a pretty woeful set of AIs for our teams, Gatland, and the other selectors, may well look at players who can deliver at this level, even if they are not current internationals. It's about winning a tour, not developing players.

There are also fitness, and possible injury issues with some of the guys who many would expect to make the first team squad. Ferris, Croft and O'Connell* being three that spring to mind.

* Jones hasn't named O'Connell in his squad, but I would have him in if he was fit. Probably as captain again too.

I cannot believe we are arguing over the merits of a Stephen Jones article.

Categorically and sincerely, the man is a monumental tool with a risible knowledge of any players other than those comprising the English team. he does not wish to take a balanced view simply because he doesn't care to.

His job is to antagonise people with carefully considered, non-partisan and knowledgeable views of the game of all four Lions nations whom he clearly considers with the same disdain as my daughter regards her greens.

I was just surprised he failed to find room for his darling Simon Shaw.

Gatland said in September that he would be paying more attention to the form of players in the autumn than in the Six Nations.

If he is true to his word then virtually the whole pack right now would be English maybe Healey & Heaslip would edge in.
Halfpenny & Davies in the backs. Sexton & Bowe poss. Gilroy, Tuilagi & Youngs.

The trouble with Gats coming out with comments like that & talking down Robshaw because he 'isn't an out & out 7' is that you either have to eat your words because players may force their way into the squad because of performances & consistency or you cut off your nose to spite your face.

Morgannwg wrote:Sharples is better and unique. The lions should probably take a finisher, it'll be between Visser and Ashton who apart from finishing are both very average.

Very funny Morgannwg. Maybe Sharples will emerge as a contender in the 6 nations but to say he's better and unique...Where's the evidence?

Against Australia his tackling was woeful. Guess who the Lions are playing?

Give Visser and Ashton a chance. I know you think Cuthbert and North are the Lion's wingers already but neither have done themselves favours in the AIs.

When I first read this in the Times yesterday my initial reaction was one of eye-popping disbelief....but then I remembered that I was reading a Stephen Jones article and smiled to myself. The guy has about as much credibility as a Lehman brother's share tip, and you can really only stand back and admire the relentless energy and creativity that he puts into his endless campaign of WUMing.

....and anyway, of all the inflammatory articles he could have written, Lions selection has to be the worst? Even the most balanced article would have drawn criticism from somewhere - with a 6N's still to play, everything's still up in the air.

He still gets a special shout-out in a couple of areas, though:

Centre: the northern hemisphere's most explosive player omitted

Fly half: only 2, and both of them utterly unconvincing (one of them especially!)

Flanker: all but Tipuric selected purely on reputation (I love Croft, but he hasn't played in months!!)

Prop: Hahahahahahaha...stop....you're killing me!

He may have done it do be 'controversial' but after including Priestland and omitting Tuilagi, the rumour is that the Sunday Times have moved Stephen Jones from the sports department to the obituaries team.

Now he just has to type things and not give opinions on a subject he knows nothing about.

beshocked wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Sharples is better and unique. The lions should probably take a finisher, it'll be between Visser and Ashton who apart from finishing are both very average.

Very funny Morgannwg. Maybe Sharples will emerge as a contender in the 6 nations but to say he's better and unique...Where's the evidence?

Against Australia his tackling was woeful. Guess who the Lions are playing?

Give Visser and Ashton a chance. I know you think Cuthbert and North are the Lion's wingers already but neither have done themselves favours in the AIs.

Ashton's tackling is also woeful. Unlike you one try in something like eleven games doesn't convince me he's once again amazing and redefining wing play.

I can only see one of Visser or Ashton going. Bowe will tour. Cuthbert and North should on current form for doing a lot more than finishing but either could fall down the pecking order after the 6N.

Surely wing, more than any other, is a position you select on form? Whoever's scoring tries in the 6N's should tour....simple as that really

Adam wrote:Surely wing, more than any other, is a position you select on form? Whoever's scoring tries in the 6N's should tour....simple as that really

Form in a wet British (yes and Irish) march does not necessarily translate to form on a hard Australian pitch in July.

....and an in-form wing on a good team has a much easier job of provong it than an in-form wing on a bad team or a less than good team.

Gatland will be looking at skills all around the field... and they can be shown in isolation without the bonus of having a strong enough team around you to make it all count on the scoreboard. "How would that guy do with better distributors and forwards?" would be the question, not just "Did that guy score most tries?"

SecretFly wrote:....and an in-form wing on a good team has a much easier job of provong it than an in-form wing on a bad team or a less than good team.

Gatland will be looking at skills..."

I think not.

Gatland will be looking at the biggest, heaviest players who can bosh it up the middle and chase Priestland's floppy kicks for 80 mins.

Casartelli wrote:

SecretFly wrote:....and an in-form wing on a good team has a much easier job of provong it than an in-form wing on a bad team or a less than good team.

Gatland will be looking at skills..."

I think not.

Gatland will be looking at the biggest, heaviest players who can bosh it up the middle and chase Priestland's floppy kicks for 80 mins.

So a back line of:

Phillips
Priestland
North
Roberts
Manu
Visser
Halfpenny (little but Gats knows they need a goal kicker)

9. Youngs
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Roberts
13. Tuilagi
14. Visser
15. Halfpenny

seems a bit more likely.

Enormous, quick backline.

Apart from Ickle Ben, of course.

Gatland selects Priestland no matter what. Accept it.

If he thinks the psychiatrist can sort out Rhys's goalkicking, he'll play Cuthbert at 15 too.

WOW Really ! barrit, vunipola and ross instead of Tuilagi, Corbisiero and Cole these 3 would be pushing hard for a world XV team let alone british and irish lions.

He's also picked alot of injured or out of form players based on 2009 reputation and past six nations glories e.g. Croft, Ferris, Lydiate, BOD...

Everyones entitled to an opinion but have lost a bit of respect for his views i spose we are all talking about it though which must have been his real aim.

sirtidychris wrote:WOW Really ! barrit, vunipola and ross instead of Tuilagi, Corbisiero and Cole these 3 would be pushing hard for a world XV team let alone british and irish lions.

Corbs is a good all-rounder and still improving, but I don't think he's quite at that level yet. Still bizarre to go for Vunipola ahead of him...

Agree on the other two, though.

He may as well have said "Wibble"

Utter nonsense. And please - lets forget the silly who is British debate. If its in the rules - it fine and has been so for years.

The 6N will decide much - but as it stands, there needs to be more England boys in there. They matched 2 of the best teams in the world and lost through acknowledged errors and beat the other. Any person who selects Priestland at this point in time (great player he can be) needs help.

Adam wrote:

Fly half: only 2, and both of them utterly unconvincing (one of them especially!)

Think Sexton was pretty good in his last match for Ireland and alright v SA. He has also been penciled down as a probable lions test started in nearly every Lions predicions article or interview I have seen in the last few months so not sure how that can be considered contraversial by Jones. Im sure he included Priestland because he is Welsh.

Priestland is also a much better player than his recent performances would suggest. I think he has become a bit of a fall guy for Wales' dip in form.

Flood and Farrell are also obvious contenders but both have their weaknesses too so I wouldnt consider either of them obvious front runners either.

GunsGerms wrote:

Adam wrote:

Fly half: only 2, and both of them utterly unconvincing (one of them especially!)

Think Sexton was pretty good in his last match for Ireland and alright v SA. He has also been penciled down as a probable lions test started in nearly every Lions predicions article or interview I have seen in the last few months so not sure how that can be considered contraversial by Jones. Im sure he included Priestland because he is Welsh.

Priestland is also a much better player than his recent performances would suggest. I think he has become a bit of a fall guy for Wales' dip in form.

Flood and Farrell are also obvious contenders but both have their weaknesses too so I wouldnt consider either of them obvious front runners either.

I understand Sexton had a great game vs Argentina (didn't see it unfortunately), but he's been the supposed Lions 10 in waiting for the last couple of years and, frankly, he hasn't done what he was tipped to do: consistently produce his best rugby to claim the shirt hands-down. He's had some great games, but he's had plenty of poor ones as well. Yes, all the pundits are putting him in their prospective Lions teams, but unlike a lot of positions where there is genuine depth of top class talent, at 10 I feel he's seen as the best of a pretty unconvincing bunch, and a couple of strong 6Ns performances from one of his competitors could, and should, see them starting ahead of Sexton (of course, Sexton could silence all of these doubts with a couple more strong performances of his own...)

Adam wrote:
I understand Sexton had a great game vs Argentina (didn't see it unfortunately), but he's been the supposed Lions 10 in waiting for the last couple of years and, frankly, he hasn't done what he was tipped to do: consistently produce his best rugby to claim the shirt hands-down. He's had some great games, but he's had plenty of poor ones as well. Yes, all the pundits are putting him in their prospective Lions teams, but unlike a lot of positions where there is genuine depth of top class talent, at 10 I feel he's seen as the best of a pretty unconvincing bunch, and a couple of strong 6Ns performances from one of his competitors could, and should, see them starting ahead of Sexton (of course, Sexton could silence all of these doubts with a couple more strong performances of his own...)

Adam think Wales without Gatland...and think Wales with him. Now which performed better? Which showed more intent despite the losses. Which looked at least like they were mentally in the games? Coaches matter. Sexton isn't alone in underperforming in the Irish shirt. He's not alone. And if he's not alone you can be certain there are other factors at work besides his individual performances.

Up until the last two games of this AIs, Kidney had Ireland playing a very staid version of glum rugby and Sexton was part of that army - obeying orders. Now, since the tour to New Zealand, Kidney and his fellow coaches must have been made to understand that the continuation of rugby that doesn't suit the players being asked to play it can't be allowed to go on. The younger players are being coached in a much faster game at Provincial, where all players have the potential to chase after a gap and when they do, they instinctively know support is chasing them down on each flank. If that support isn't there with rules of engagement that are too cautious and defensively minded, then Sexton's abilities become impotent.
Sexton's lack of success in an Ireland shirt is because Kidney seems to be a kicking and screaming late disciple to the needs of a modern game. If he's found a genuine new appreciation for a perpetual motion energy sapping game, then we'll see Sexton in his true light.

What an absolutely terrible squad. What does this man get paid to do again?

Adam

Sexton was excellent against Argentina - really got the Irish backline moving fluently. Have to say that d'Arcy had his best game in green for about 2 years.

Priestland though - urgh. Seems totally lacking in confidence, hence kicking too often and not very effectively.

As for the supposed Lions sqaud listed, I can only assume it's some sort of joke. I was going to do a critique of it, but it's really too farcical to bother with. Perhaps we need to bookmark it and see whether it comes out as 50% right come squad announcement time.

I think the fact that Sexton of all candidates is playing for the worst performing team of 2012 and yet is still considered the best option says a lot. No matter how good an OH you are it is very difficult to consistently shine while consistently on the back foot.

I will say that Sexton even though every year he tends to have the best goal kicking stats in the Hcup his goal kicking for Ireland is not good enough. This for me is his biggest weakness.

That said unless he has a horrendous 6N he is practically a shoe in to travel because he can also play 1st centre quite capably.