Chris Ashton - A hollow man?

First topic message reminder :

I have concerns over Ashton. He certainly doesn't merit inclusion in the Lions unless he improves massively. Ok, he scored at last - but how many times does he knock on and waste opportunities. His handling is dire. There are 2 key reasons. He stands too flat and seldom tales a ball at pace resulting in him often checking - its easier to run onto a ball to collect it than to try and catch it when starting to accelerate. Secondly, because he isnt cutting a pre planned angle at pace, he looks to see the space and takes his eyes off the ball.

His premiership form doesn't merit selection either - there are better wingers. He is a strong lump - but too predictable and too inconsistent in his handling.

I am also bloody fed up with his dive. I don't care about the arrogance label, accusations of disrespect ot even the fact it makes him look like a knob - no - one day he WILL drop it or it will be knocked from his arm in a tackle. Its stupid and unnecessary. Sod law says - if he picks for the Lions, the rare occasion fans from the other home nations may find themselves cheering him - it WILL happen and he will NEVER live it down.

I teach the kids - get that ball down quickly and solidly.

Indeed Biltong - he said what a difference it was - how much less space he got and he has looked a bit overawed frankly - playing with much less confidence than in the pro 12 not running free / popping up all over the park as he does for Edinburgh

Visser defence has to be at least as bad as Ashton though.

Whatever we do it would be nice to have variety, e.g. one bosher and and one small and nimble.

TJ wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Visser better than Cuthbert? Wouldn't have thought so.

Look at their record in the pro 12. Visser scores more tries, more per game, and is playing for a team that loses all the time. Also in the few internationals he has played in his strike rate is great again for a poor side.

We will know for sure after the 6N. Not a lot in it and similar sorts of players

It's not always about try-scoring records though. Otherwise Tom James would be one of the best wingers in europe... Depsite that Cuthbert has a good strike rate in Europe and on the international scene as well as offering a lot more. I believe the next time he got the ball he did chip and it was well covered by the the outstanding Beale. Cuthbert is still one of the top scorers despite there being other potent attackers and finishers in the teams he is part of. Besides, Visser didn't get called up for international until he was eligible, which meant he could play a lot more league games so it's no wonder he is still the highest try scorer. Not saying that I don't rate him, he's just what SCotland needs. I rate all three wingers in question but at the same time the defence of all three can be poor.

I think the Lions will have enough monsters on the wings and one of the spots should go to someone who offers something a bit different. Either that or put Halfpenny back on the wing.

I'm not a fan of showboats like Ashton, Ioane and Visser. I admire their skills and finishing ability but IMO there is no place in rugby for the football esque finger pointing (Visser), splash diving (Ashton) and catterpillars (Iaone) they are known to perform.

Get the ball down, get back up to your feet and take the plaudits from your team.

Or better yet, once you are over the line try and get closer to the posts instead of making yourself look like a tool.

I do agree with TJ though, Ashton does look like he needs a bit of a slamming, his face just crys out "Punch me".

Morgan - vissers scoring rate per game is twice his nearest rival. rate pre game not total scored.

His defense is not that poor altho its not the strongest part of his game

Morgannwg wrote:

TJ wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Visser better than Cuthbert? Wouldn't have thought so.

Look at their record in the pro 12. Visser scores more tries, more per game, and is playing for a team that loses all the time. Also in the few internationals he has played in his strike rate is great again for a poor side.

We will know for sure after the 6N. Not a lot in it and similar sorts of players

It's not always about try-scoring records though. Otherwise Tom James would be one of the best wingers in europe... Depsite that Cuthbert has a good strike rate in Europe and on the international scene as well as offering a lot more. I believe the next time he got the ball he did chip and it was well covered by the the outstanding Beale. Cuthbert is still one of the top scorers despite there being other potent attackers and finishers in the teams he is part of. Besides, Visser didn't get called up for international until he was eligible, which meant he could play a lot more league games so it's no wonder he is still the highest try scorer. Not saying that I don't rate him, he's just what SCotland needs. I rate all three wingers in question but at the same time the defence of all three can be poor.

I think the Lions will have enough monsters on the wings and one of the spots should go to someone who offers something a bit different. Either that or put Halfpenny back on the wing.

Tom James - one of the best wingers in Europe are you joking? He's never been that.

10 caps for Wales, 2 tries.

Visser's defense is worse than Ashton's.

Against NZ Ashton made 4 tackles, missed one.

TJ Visser's defense is shocking.

beshocked - how much of his play have you watched? I have seen almost every Edinburgh game for years.

His positioning is sometimes adrift yes and defence is not the best part of his game but he also makes very good tackles and is very fast in getting into position to make them. His is also good at stealing the ball in the tackle. Tackled North and took the ball off him last time they came up against each other.

If he gets to the man they don't get past. He is not brushed off inthe tackle.

beshocked wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

TJ wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Visser better than Cuthbert? Wouldn't have thought so.

Look at their record in the pro 12. Visser scores more tries, more per game, and is playing for a team that loses all the time. Also in the few internationals he has played in his strike rate is great again for a poor side.

We will know for sure after the 6N. Not a lot in it and similar sorts of players

It's not always about try-scoring records though. Otherwise Tom James would be one of the best wingers in europe... Depsite that Cuthbert has a good strike rate in Europe and on the international scene as well as offering a lot more. I believe the next time he got the ball he did chip and it was well covered by the the outstanding Beale. Cuthbert is still one of the top scorers despite there being other potent attackers and finishers in the teams he is part of. Besides, Visser didn't get called up for international until he was eligible, which meant he could play a lot more league games so it's no wonder he is still the highest try scorer. Not saying that I don't rate him, he's just what SCotland needs. I rate all three wingers in question but at the same time the defence of all three can be poor.

I think the Lions will have enough monsters on the wings and one of the spots should go to someone who offers something a bit different. Either that or put Halfpenny back on the wing.

Tom James - one of the best wingers in Europe are you joking? He's never been that.

10 caps for Wales, 2 tries.

Visser's defense is worse than Ashton's.

Against NZ Ashton made 4 tackles, missed one.

TJ Visser's defense is shocking.

Agreed, we can no longer pretend otherwise. It is something that can be worked on. Williams, Bowe, Paterson are guys just of the top of my head who had fragile defences to begin with.

At the Scotland camp with guys like Lamont and with Paterson coaching with Edinburgh Visser is at least in a position to improve that area of his game.

It will all be down to his commitment to recognize this weakness and that it's is unnacceptable at an international level to buy a Dummy like he took against Tonga.

Apologies TJ I should have added at international level.

Maybe shocking is overly harsh but his defense has not been up to scratch.

I have been critical of Visser but he's shown to be an excellent attacking force. Just needs to work on his flaws.

Ruggerradge agree.

Equally Ashton has work to do too.

Beshocked - no issues with that. He should have been well embarrassed by buying that dummy and also getting caught off his man once as well. He has said he was surprised by the step up to international - lets hope he gets his head down and works to improve his game - he is smart and has a good ethic so hopefully he will.

I know its easy to make too much out of limited data, but I remember watching the NZ/scot game and although Visser took his tries well he was like the proverbial revolving door for at least one of the NZ tries

I just looked at the stats - against nz made 1 tackle and missed 2 - but scored 2 tries and made a good amount of yards

I think thats what you call a mixed bag :-)

I agree TJ, he is one of the most dangerous strike runners in the NH with the ball in hand. 3 years running he has been top try scorer in the pro 12. A league that contains the likes of Bowe, Howlett, North, Cuthbert etc.

He is a proven scorer, and he has 4 tries to his name for Scotland 2 against NZ and 2 against Fiji nad 2 against England for the Baa Baas. He has only had 4 international caps and has only got a few more tries to score before he overtakes Sean Lamont who has over 60 caps!

He is a massive liability in defence, but as I noted earlier Paterson, Shane Williams and Bowe all had the same problems.

Back on topic Ashton is in the same boat. Dangerous with the ball in hand and lightning quick, he and Visser bring attacking threat to the party and on those reasons deserve their places in the England and Scotland squads.

Defence is a weakness for both parties but can be worked on, especially in Visser's case of positional awareness.

It is my opinion however that Visser's problem is courage. He seems to want to be in the wrong place to avoid tackling head on. He should look to his club mate Laidlaw who despite giving away almost a foot in height and over 3st on weight is never afraid to get right in the way of his opposite number.

When I watched visser during the Autumn internationals you could see him hesitate in defence.

He is clearly not comfortable with his technique. I don't know what his defence is like in the Rabo, but again defence you also have less time to make decisions and execute.

He just needs guidance.

I don't think it is lack of courage - I think its positional awareness / hesitation / decision making I have seen him tackle big guys in the rabo without issue.

this year willbe the making or breaking of him. we will see

If as RAdge suggests its courage/aggression hes lacking then thats going to be a lot harder to coach into an adult than it was for England to teach Morgan to stop tackling like an idiot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Su0wgGDizQ

Youtube: Dutch ?

beshocked wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote: I'd also like Wade to have a go to see how he does....

...with 3 posessions a match

I agree that Goode too seems remarkedly immune to criticism for his tackling and passing (what he was put in the side for)
Farrell too...his kicking in the first half especially was straight down the throats of the NZ back 3 and England were only bailed out by their tactical kicking being as woeful. Several times he stood so deep to recieve the ball that the centers had almost overun him before he passed meaning they received the ball standing with defenders coming on at speed.
Bassicaly England were appalling, sack Lancaster.

Players who have beaten the All Blacks - immune to criticism? Whatever next?

Sure there are things for the players to work on but I think as armchair pundits we focus too much on what went wrong than what went right.

Okay so England missed a few tackles against the best side and attack in the world. It happens.

I thought England's kick chase was actually pretty good overall. There were a few wayward kicks but the kick offs in particular we very good.

I would hazard a guess that a lot of those misses came from the 10 mins of pressure that NZ created after the break, when they're in that mood any side will miss tackles. We did scramble and cover well though and in the end it just acted to wake us up and get us back on track.

This Ashton thread certainly has 'legs'.
In fact more legs than all the named wingers combined

Ashton just needs to learn (i) to put the dwarves down and (ii) that the swan dive serves no purpose other than to make him look like a gigantic girl's shirt.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I agree TJ, he is one of the most dangerous strike runners in the NH with the ball in hand. 3 years running he has been top try scorer in the pro 12. A league that contains the likes of Bowe, Howlett, North, Cuthbert etc.

He is a proven scorer, and he has 4 tries to his name for Scotland 2 against NZ and 2 against Fiji nad 2 against England for the Baa Baas. He has only had 4 international caps and has only got a few more tries to score before he overtakes Sean Lamont who has over 60 caps!

He is a massive liability in defence, but as I noted earlier Paterson, Shane Williams and Bowe all had the same problems.

Back on topic Ashton is in the same boat. Dangerous with the ball in hand and lightning quick, he and Visser bring attacking threat to the party and on those reasons deserve their places in the England and Scotland squads.

Defence is a weakness for both parties but can be worked on, especially in Visser's case of positional awareness.

It is my opinion however that Visser's problem is courage. He seems to want to be in the wrong place to avoid tackling head on. He should look to his club mate Laidlaw who despite giving away almost a foot in height and over 3st on weight is never afraid to get right in the way of his opposite number.

Also Ashton and Visser score so many because their game reading and phase tracking is brilliant.

yappysnap wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote: I'd also like Wade to have a go to see how he does....

...with 3 posessions a match

I agree that Goode too seems remarkedly immune to criticism for his tackling and passing (what he was put in the side for)
Farrell too...his kicking in the first half especially was straight down the throats of the NZ back 3 and England were only bailed out by their tactical kicking being as woeful. Several times he stood so deep to recieve the ball that the centers had almost overun him before he passed meaning they received the ball standing with defenders coming on at speed.
Bassicaly England were appalling, sack Lancaster.

Players who have beaten the All Blacks - immune to criticism? Whatever next?

Sure there are things for the players to work on but I think as armchair pundits we focus too much on what went wrong than what went right.

Okay so England missed a few tackles against the best side and attack in the world. It happens.

I thought England's kick chase was actually pretty good overall. There were a few wayward kicks but the kick offs in particular we very good.

I would hazard a guess that a lot of those misses came from the 10 mins of pressure that NZ created after the break, when they're in that mood any side will miss tackles. We did scramble and cover well though and in the end it just acted to wake us up and get us back on track.

Being out of position and not stopping an offload is understanable. Bouncing off tackles is not.

Beshocked, if you were happy with the Goode pass to Ashton then it sums up why our passing is so bad (if we consider that as good). It was slightly behind him and at his head (unless I've completely remembered it. It was shocking and similar to plenty other throughout the game. Also, not sure if Seabiscuit was joking but, I agree our tactical kicking in the first half was absolutely terrible. I'm just glad they all couldn't run or kick properly because they were trying not to Poopie themselves (or whatever their reason was).

The pass was not great but he still should have caught it

Hammer I watched it again last night ... it wasnt behind him ...just a bit high and very flat as Ashton was maybe half a pace ahead of his ideal position to recieve it. he flapped at the ball and Ben kayed it.
Hes done that a fair few times recently with borderline passes, Im sure tension and frustration has played a part. Hopefuly he will be more relaxed now hes broken his Lancaster duck and now England look more capable of getting players like him into the game.

Ashton is a lot better than his recent performances would indicate. He'll be fine and going back to his club will help. Reckon all the issues identified here will have been recognised by SL's team and will be worked on to get him upto speed. He's got too much try scoring ability for him to be ignored and I think Lancaster is going to prove to be very good at bringing on talented players and there's a sound basis to work on with Ashton.

It's frustrating that opinion is always based upon the last performance. Yes, Ashton knocked on and fumbled a couple of times last Saturday but he is not known for this. This is purely a short sighted knee-jerk reaction to the last match.

Whether there are better English wingers who deserve his place is another topic worth debating. I think he is a marked man suffering 2nd/3rd season syndrome and thus draws more than his fair share of defenders freeing up space for the likes of Tuilagi. Soon teams will realise this, give him more space and he will become the try machine again he once was. All great players have gone through the same experience. I am not saying Ashton merits the "great" tag yet, only time will tell on that.

beshocked wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

TJ wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Visser better than Cuthbert? Wouldn't have thought so.

Look at their record in the pro 12. Visser scores more tries, more per game, and is playing for a team that loses all the time. Also in the few internationals he has played in his strike rate is great again for a poor side.

We will know for sure after the 6N. Not a lot in it and similar sorts of players

It's not always about try-scoring records though. Otherwise Tom James would be one of the best wingers in europe... Depsite that Cuthbert has a good strike rate in Europe and on the international scene as well as offering a lot more. I believe the next time he got the ball he did chip and it was well covered by the the outstanding Beale. Cuthbert is still one of the top scorers despite there being other potent attackers and finishers in the teams he is part of. Besides, Visser didn't get called up for international until he was eligible, which meant he could play a lot more league games so it's no wonder he is still the highest try scorer. Not saying that I don't rate him, he's just what SCotland needs. I rate all three wingers in question but at the same time the defence of all three can be poor.

I think the Lions will have enough monsters on the wings and one of the spots should go to someone who offers something a bit different. Either that or put Halfpenny back on the wing.

Tom James - one of the best wingers in Europe are you joking? He's never been that.

10 caps for Wales, 2 tries.

Visser's defense is worse than Ashton's.

Against NZ Ashton made 4 tackles, missed one.

TJ Visser's defense is shocking.

I wasn't stating that. Learn to read FFS. I'm tired of having to explain things to you more than once.

It seems to me that the bulk of people who have a problem with Ashton are stupid. I say this because from what I can see there are the following key reasons for dislike:

1. "He's over-hyped": He is most certainly over-hyped. But what has this got to do with him? He hasn't been 'hyping' himself!! It's our ridiculous, sensationalist media at fault - its both stupid and totally out of order to use this as a reason to dislike him

2. "He's bound to drop it one day": He probably will. But I'd have thought even the most miserable of miserable b*stards would be capable of at least waiting until that day before holding it against him!

3. "He's got a really punchable face": My personal favourite, and belies what is probably the real reason why people are so quick to dislike Ashton....his face just doesn't fit rugby union - too brash, not 'public school' enough, and he used to play league!!

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think Ashton is superman or 're-defining wing play' or anything like that. But why get on top of a guy just because he's had a run of iffy form? Real fans should be backing him to get his form back and improve his weaknesses, because when he does he is an asset to England.

I agree with ya- especially no.1

i hate the hate for someone or something that is overhyped!! its not there fault is it!

Its not that he is an oik that he has a punchable face - many toffs do as wall -

Adam wrote:It seems to me that the bulk of people who have a problem with Ashton are stupid. I say this because from what I can see there are the following key reasons for dislike:

1. "He's over-hyped": He is most certainly over-hyped. But what has this got to do with him? He hasn't been 'hyping' himself!! It's our ridiculous, sensationalist media at fault - its both stupid and totally out of order to use this as a reason to dislike him

2. "He's bound to drop it one day": He probably will. But I'd have thought even the most miserable of miserable b*stards would be capable of at least waiting until that day before holding it against him!

3. "He's got a really punchable face": My personal favourite, and belies what is probably the real reason why people are so quick to dislike Ashton....his face just doesn't fit rugby union - too brash, not 'public school' enough, and he used to play league!!

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think Ashton is superman or 're-defining wing play' or anything like that. But why get on top of a guy just because he's had a run of iffy form? Real fans should be backing him to get his form back and improve his weaknesses, because when he does he is an asset to England.

A cigar for this man!

As for the 'public shool' types, they're rapidly going the way of the dinosaur (apart from in the self sabotaging RFU). I haven't seen any of the rampant blazer brigade out in force for sometime now, and i'm a Surrey boy!

Adam perhaps it would be more appropriate to call them superficial rather than stupid, eh?

Hollow ?
some say his legs are filled with nitro. His nose with pass detector, his fingers with ball repellant. His genetic material is believed to be 50% swan, but with no tackle, and his phisiography emits 'punch me' in several languages.

But all we know, is that he is called ......
.............The Splash.

....... Or the splat.

At the end of the day I think Brown is a etter Winger fo England. He goes looking for work. he looks to run at the space between players and has eter hands

But Ive only seen him play a few games for you so what do I know......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1914XF8afo

That's how the splash is done.

gregortree wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1914XF8afo

That's how the splash is done.

That clip still makes me laugh.

One day that will be Ashton !
Just hope it is with Sarries and not England.

gregortree wrote:One day that will be Ashton !
Just hope it is with Sarries and not England.

Hope not! Hopefully Ashton has got it out of his system.

He tried his dive vs London Irish. Got ruined by a naughty LI player. Luckily didn't drop the ball.

Hasn't done it since at club level.

hehe - whats was the end score in that game!!!!


i bet he wanted the ground to eat him up

TBH ashton seems abit unlucky- i reakon it will happen to him with the winning try in a RWC final!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXM96VTilmM

This is why you should just get the ball down. It was a really important try saver by Varndell because I think it kept Wasps from being relegated.


London Irish still won 16-13 I believe.

What are the genuine wing options if he was to be replaced...

Christian Wade
Marlon Yarde
JSD
Sharples
Banahan
Monye
Abendanon (A Full back)
Mike Brown (A Full Back)
Ben Foden (A Full Back)
Eastmond (Is he down to move to the centre?)
Joseph (A centre)
Benjamin
Thompstone
Matt Tait (Who knows)
Varndell (Normally derided on 606)

Who have i missed?

Ashton is very good and has pace to burn which is always good. My biggest problem with him is he is clearly an empty vessel. He is never going to be a smart player like Tommy Bowe or Vincent Clerc and his decision making can be quite poor at times.

Also Ill forgive him the swan dive v NZ because in all fairness its rare that anyone beats NZ. However, he does these swan dives nearly every time he scores and he looks ridiculous so it would be hard to stomach on a Lions tour.

GunsGerms he doesn't done the swan dive this season for Saracens. As I said he tried it vs London Irish but it didn't exactly work.

Geordiefalcon if you include Tait you might as well throw Strettle, Short,Jess,A.Watson and Biggs.

Varndell has 9 tries in the AP - he has to be at least on the radar.

Lancaster seems like a smart no bs sort of guy. I cant imagine he would put up with silly swan dives too often.

Exactly...Beshocked

Maybe i didnt put that across well...but are there any genuine wingers out there at the moment that can really replace an experienced try scorer like him and hes still not old...

Varndell and Wade probably put their hand up the most...the rest...most on the list above i would wipe out.

Is Yarde a potential?

I always felt Varndell was one who is a good club player but can't make the step up to internationals? Like Moyne

Ashton will come good again - I am sure. Every team needs a finisher same as every team needs a kicker. Ashton is a good finisher / poacher.

Dont think its fair to say Monye couldnt step up ..he had a very good run in the side and went on a Lions tour off the back of it.

Varndell never really got a chance to prove it one way or another but hes surely too old now.