IS FLOYD REALLY A COWARD? DEBUNKING THE MYTHS!

by azumah HOF Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:28 pm

The most insulting label that could be conffered on a boxer, in this most brutal of sports, is cowardice!
So we have Floyd Mayweather junior, multi weight champ and unbeaten, being accussed by many of being a coward. Running away from fighting Manny.
I believe that this both a simplistic and lazy accusation and does not stand up when you look at the history and DNA of this fighter, psychologically and emotionally.

Firstly a quick reflection. I have noticed that the cowardice tag in the history of boxing has at times all to easily been given to the technician rather than the brawler. So at various times boxers like Ali and Ray Leonard were accussed of being scared. In reality both were amongst the bravest out there.
Floyd's opponents have included some monstrous tasks in different ways. Tasks no less daunting than facing Manny and arguably in some cases, going into those fights, more daunting. Floyd faced down 2 monsters in their prime at LW in Corrales and Castillo. How many people would have viewed them as walks in the park after their heroic contest. Fighters with intensity and true KO potential. Floyd might have outboxed Castillo in the 2nd fight but how about the brave decision to pretty much fight the bigger punching Corrales in the pocket for a lot of the fight! I would also like to mention the Oscar fight. Now people talk a lot of rubbish in hindsight about this fight. Lets be clear the contention going into that fight was that Oscar had enough left and was fresh enough to kill Floyd. His motivation enhanced by serious trash talking and baiting by Floyd. Crucially why ignore the brave decision to fight Oscar at light middle!? No weight drained Oscar here and no catchweight in sight. why is that not brought forward as the decision making of a brave and confident fighter?
Fast forward and to the Mosley fight. The main consensus from man was that if Shane stood a chance than it was in the early rounds. Well I for one would have told Floyd to box for the first half and turn i tup later like he did against anothe fast and powerful puncher he faced, Judah. Floyd instead fights arguably the biggest puncher in that division in the pocket, unusually very static and in the centre of the ring. As a tactician i thought it was way to brave and unecessary. And he got caught!!!
Floyd gets caught flush by 2 haymaker punches in the same round!!! Well is this not the true test of a boxers bravery? I bet if i had asked many of his detractors before the fight how Floyd would react in this circumstance they would have said streotypical stuff like 'he would run like a chicken'. I have to say that 2 things were obvious , firstly the amazing powers of recovery and shockingly the decision to go into round 3 and stand his ground well within Shanes range and seek to exact retribution. High risk and brave!
So to the contention that in the negotiations for the fight with Manny he is running scared. There is nothing in what we know about Floyd that points to a fighter that is scared by anything he faces in the ring.
The drug testing I believe was a something that just developed. Floyd senior started off with it and they saw it as a chance to play some mind games. I think they were shocked as were many by Manny's initial strong reaction against the testing. I think the more they pushed the more an intital stunt started to spook them more than a little bit. Bob Arum in my opinion mismanaged this situation. Floyds biggest weakness is his arrogance and now it became about who dictates to who.
To the present situation. I think one thing Floyd's detractors are underplaying is his current state of mind. The distractions in his private life are big. Not the altercation with security guards but the events with his ex. Floyd is a dedicated father and in his way very close and focused on his kids. The altercation (caused by his own stupidity i might add) drew in his kids and has caused a major rift. This I believe is like a dagger in the heart for Floyd who himself had many unresloved issues from his childhood between his parents. He is not in the state of mind for boxing I beleieve based on those particular set of circumstances.
In conclusion, Floyd's bravey is not in question. Those who claim it is are far too simplistic in their views. Strangely I think Manny might have started to believe that Floyd is scared of him...... BIG BIG ERROR!!!

by **HumanWindmill** Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:09 pm

Welcome aboard, Zoomy. Good to see you made it over.

I believe you'll enjoy it here. As you've probably seen there's a nice mixture of discussion topics, new and old, very little WUM activity and, in addition, it's forum policy to merge duplicate threads so that the front page stays clean and tidy. In other words, we have the best of the old BBC forum with very little of the nonsense which spoiled it from time to time.

Looking forward to your input.

by Sugar Boy Sweetie Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:57 pm

I can't go along with anyone that levels the coward accusation at boxers. To say that about anyone that climbs through the ropes and puts it on the line is not the behavour of a true boxing fan or appreciator.

Floyd had an impressive run at sfw and lw, taking on corrales and castillio, rematching castillio straight away to put the record straight are all particularly impressive. You can't say that he hasn't picked and chosen his opponents carefully since becoming a welter, but that doesn't amount to cowardice, it's a common theme with lots of fighters when they get to the top of the tree. Pacquiao for example has been very carefully managed since becoming p4p no1. When mayweather fought hatton Ricky was an undefeated fighter and two weight champ ranked in the Ring p4p top ten. When he fought Oscar he moved up in weight to challenge for oscars title, and when he fought Mosley Shane was off the back of his destruction of margarito and viewed by everyone as the most dangerous fight for floyd excluding manny, so even since moving to welter he has taken on good challenges. Detractors will say he could have fought Cotto, but Cotto has never in his career made any overtures toward a fight with mayweather, yet the ducking accusations get levelled at floyd not Cotto? There's an arguement to say he couldve fought marg and maybe he could, and of course Mitchell, baldimor and Marquez at 147 aren't anything to write home about but no fighter can fight stellar opposition every time out.

He's not a coward but a guy with immense talent who fought his way to the top, then like many became more carefully managed once he became an asset worth protecting, but still took on decent challenges. He does however need to get off the pot after his court case next week and put this pacquiao situation to bed once and for all. Manny fights Mosley the following week, and floyd has made a habit at mannys last few fights of trying to steal his thunder. If floyd gets off his charges I wouldn't be surprised to hear about his next move in boxing sometime around may 7th...

by BALTIMORA Sun Apr 24, 2011 2:55 pm

Having seen the title of this I'm just gonna grab some popcorn and sit back. This should be interesting.

by **88Chris05** Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:00 pm

Zoomy, you make some good points, but having said that, comparing the Corrales, Castillo and De la Hoya fights to the potential Pacquiao is a little bit fanciful, to say the least. They were all live opponents of course, but they in no way represented the same quality and, crucially, the same risk that Pacquiao does.

Like Sugar Boy says, I wouldn't call anyone who goes in to the ring at the highest level and risks their health each time a coward. But the big fights which Mayweather has carefully missed / avoided over the last five years isn't a very pretty pattern.

Taking everything in to account, I honestly don't see how anyone can deny that Mayweather is, in some way and to a certain extent, weary of Pacquiao and the threat he poses. Yes, he's had his personal issues, and for those reasons it's entirely understandable that no negotiations with Pacquio have taken place in the last six months. But prior to that? I'm not so sure. While some may be taken in by Mayweather's "I'm making a stance for what I believe in" act with regards to random drug testing, but unfortunately I think it's a smokescreen. It seems, to me at least, that he never believed in it until the last eighteen months - in short, since the fight between him and Pacquiao became viable.

I doubt I'm the only one who questions why it's taken until now for Mayweather to miraculously speak out for something which he has, supposedly, always believed in.

That said, I don't for one minute buy in to this idea that he's laying awake at night with Pacquiao on his brain, that he's going in to mental meltdown over him, or that he's absolutely terrified of him. But I do think that Mayweather is highly weary of losing that '0', and what it would do to his huge ego.

by Guest Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:14 pm

BALTIMORA wrote:Having seen the title of this I'm just gonna grab some popcorn and sit back. This should be interesting.

Defo, its got all the makings of an entertaining thread when you know who reads it! He's probably compiling his ammunition of old articles & youtube links at this very moment. Defo one to sit back with your feet up & enjoy. How long til it gets locked?

by Guest Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:16 pm

When people start going off topic Whistle

by Guest Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:24 pm

Y I Man wrote:When people start going off topic

by eddyfightfan Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:49 pm

the thing with the mayweather/pac man debate is unlike haye/wlad and other bad blood rivalrys between boxers of equal talent i honestly dont think either man wants this fight perticually badly and i VERY much doubt it will ever happen.

either man could make this fight happen or at least come on record saying they'll do what it takes make it happen, but neither man will give an inch, showing to me that neither can be 100% determined to make the fight happen

by BALTIMORA Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:17 pm

I don't see how there's grounds to call the guy a coward. With regards to Mr Mayweather and the Filipino chap, I think their egos are the stumbling blocks to the fight being made. As has been said above; of either man genuinely wanted the fight to happen they'd have...made it so.

by D4thincarnation Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:01 pm

Exhibit A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7PMKS5f6Xo

Exhibit B

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5xqPrR6r38

by TRUSSMAN66 Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:03 pm

Go away you fool....you're just not worth rebuttle time..

So i'll leave it.

by ONETWOFOREVER Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:07 pm

Floyd a coward? I dont think so, he has beaten top name fighters and ducked no one. Manny is in reality scared of loosing to Floyd.

by D4thincarnation Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:08 pm

Exhibit C

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LdNy12PtQw

Exhibit D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_UkF7-eWs8&feature=related

by Imperial Ghosty Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:10 pm

D4

If you want to discuss this go somewhere else, with you involved it's going to detioriate what debate other posters may be interested in having

by D4thincarnation Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:13 pm

Exhibit E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceigRYywORw

by ONETWOFOREVER Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:13 pm

Floyd has dissapointed me with his inactivity and has tarnished his legacy. Also the Irish are guilty of trying to claim Jack Dempsey. He was native American.

by BALTIMORA Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:15 pm

Hell, taking on an undefeated Chico and dropping him five times isn't the actions of a coward. Like the OP said; Floyd went up to Oscar's weight class to fight him. No baulking at the idea. No half-measures, just went and fought the guy. Credit where it's due. A lot of people (myself included) will point to the first Mayweather-Castillo fight and remark on how lucky Floyd was to get the win. Controversy aside, he did exactly what the fans want to see after a controversial decision: he rematched Castillo. Again, not a coward's actions.

by Imperial Ghosty Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:16 pm

D4, can you for once just let others debate this sensibly without getting involved, we dont want nor do we need your input. You can post link after link but its just as easy for me or anyone else to post a counter link

by **HumanWindmill** Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:18 pm

The Mighty Atom wrote:D4

If you want to discuss this go somewhere else, with you involved it's going to detioriate what debate other posters may be interested in having

So far everybody has stayed on topic, so no problems. Zoomy and Truss, I know you guys have history, but let's make a fresh start for the sake of an excellent new forum.

Agreed ?

by BALTIMORA Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:20 pm

Oh look, it's on YouTube, it MUST be true:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgckZDqmVIc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

NEXT!!

by Davie Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:20 pm

Mighty Atom - You've posted twice on the thread and added nothing except telling another member they aren't entitled to their opinion.

Time to add to the conversation or ignore it

by Imperial Ghosty Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:20 pm

Windy how can anyone debate this with D4 involved, we know from past experience it's an impossibility.

by Davie Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:21 pm

make that 3 posts

by **HumanWindmill** Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:24 pm

The Mighty Atom wrote:Windy how can anyone debate this with D4 involved, we know from past experience it's an impossibility.

So far everything has been on topic, Ghosty.

by Imperial Ghosty Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:25 pm

You can see the point i'm making surely, this debate will end up going down the same boring road, would it not make a change for others to be able to debate it sensibly

by D4thincarnation Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:27 pm

88Chris05 wrote:Zoomy, you make some good points, but having said that, comparing the Corrales, Castillo and De la Hoya fights to the potential Pacquiao is a little bit fanciful, to say the least. They were all live opponents of course, but they in no way represented the same quality and, crucially, the same risk that Pacquiao does.

Like Sugar Boy says, I wouldn't call anyone who goes in to the ring at the highest level and risks their health each time a coward. But the big fights which Mayweather has carefully missed / avoided over the last five years isn't a very pretty pattern.

Taking everything in to account, I honestly don't see how anyone can deny that Mayweather is, in some way and to a certain extent, weary of Pacquiao and the threat he poses. Yes, he's had his personal issues, and for those reasons it's entirely understandable that no negotiations with Pacquio have taken place in the last six months. But prior to that? I'm not so sure. While some may be taken in by Mayweather's "I'm making a stance for what I believe in" act with regards to random drug testing, but unfortunately I think it's a smokescreen. It seems, to me at least, that he never believed in it until the last eighteen months - in short, since the fight between him and Pacquiao became viable.

I doubt I'm the only one who questions why it's taken until now for Mayweather to miraculously speak out for something which he has, supposedly, always believed in.

That said, I don't for one minute buy in to this idea that he's laying awake at night with Pacquiao on his brain, that he's going in to mental meltdown over him, or that he's absolutely terrified of him. But I do think that Mayweather is highly weary of losing that '0', and what it would do to his huge ego.

Nate says that Floyd realizes he is getting older and he understands he needs to fight Pacman soon and within the year. Nate tells a story where Floyd had a dream where he lost and Floyd woke up and went and ran ten miles because he was so emotionally disturbed.

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=300242

by Davie Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:30 pm

Atom/Balti - feel free to "unruin" the topic by commenting on the topic. Keep complaints to private message/reports

by D4thincarnation Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:32 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowardice

Cowardice is the perceived failure to demonstrate sufficient robustness and courage in the face of a challenge

by D4thincarnation Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:33 pm

"The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero uses his fear, projects it onto his opponent, while the coward runs. It's the same thing, fear, but it's what you do with it that matters."
- Cus D'Amato

by Imperial Ghosty Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:33 pm

Bravo Admin team it's the fault of those who know the situation rather than those who dont have a clue whats really going on. There is next to no point keeping complaints private because nothing ever happens. Get a grip of the situation for christ sake.

by **HumanWindmill** Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:34 pm

The Mighty Atom wrote:You can see the point i'm making surely, this debate will end up going down the same boring road, would it not make a change for others to be able to debate it sensibly

Given the history, I appreciate your FEARS that the thread might end up going down the tubes, but I believe we must let it run until that happens, and so far everybody is staying within the parameters and scope of Zoomy's thread.

If we ALL play the game this just might mark a turning point, which would benefit everybody.

by Imperial Ghosty Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:34 pm

It wont happen, the best way to stop problems is by preventing them in the first place

by Davie Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:36 pm

At the moment, Mighty Atom, the problem is YOU.

by Imperial Ghosty Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:38 pm

Oh really, point well made without basis

Unlike you i'm aware of the situation

As for the article itself, a coward does not enter the ring against Hernandez, Corrales, Castillo, Hatton, Mosley or De La Hoya

by BALTIMORA Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:38 pm

D4thincarnation wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowardice

Cowardice is the perceived failure to demonstrate sufficient robustness and courage in the face of a challenge

A bit like being afraid of needles, right? Wow, a guy would have to be an incredible coward to be afraid of something like a little injection...

by BALTIMORA Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:42 pm

As someone already said-the word 'coward' has no place in the equation. Mayweather is a seasoned professional who's spent a long time at the very pinnacle of his sport. Add to that a very respectable amateur career and there's no grounds to call him a coward. The thing that is stifling his career now is not cowardice, it's greed.

by D4thincarnation Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:43 pm

BALTIMORA wrote:
D4thincarnation wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowardice

Cowardice is the perceived failure to demonstrate sufficient robustness and courage in the face of a challenge

A bit like being afraid of needles, right? Wow, a guy would have to be an incredible coward to be afraid of something like a little injection...

A needle is not a challenge, this would be an irrational fear and is a phobia.

by Imperial Ghosty Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:46 pm

Tattoos anybody?

by BALTIMORA Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:47 pm

D4thincarnation wrote:
BALTIMORA wrote:
D4thincarnation wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowardice

Cowardice is the perceived failure to demonstrate sufficient robustness and courage in the face of a challenge

A bit like being afraid of needles, right? Wow, a guy would have to be an incredible coward to be afraid of something like a little injection...

A needle is not a challenge, this would be an irrational fear and is a phobia.

I disagree with your postulation dear sir. Multidues of people all over the world have been subjected to the indignation of a hypodermic needles every day. It's a perfectly safe procedure. Turning it down due to a "fear" of needles is unreasonable.

by **oxring** Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:54 pm

I don't think you can call anyone who is 41 and 0 a coward, especially when he's taken scalps like Corrales at the top of their game.

As to whether Floyd has chased Manny as hard as he could - has Manny chased Floyd that well? The fight was there if Manny accepted fully randomised WADA testing. And whilst I've defended Manny in the past on the grounds that it isn't for Floyd to make the rules and regulations - it was still his pride that created the first stumbling block for the fight.

Ultimately, no matter how many youtubes suggest the contrary - the fact remains - that anyone who takes on the perceived danger-man of the divison, when he's been on a run which included stopping the "unstoppable force" in Margarito.

Taking on Mosley settles any suggestion that Floyd is a "coward", surely?

by BALTIMORA Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:58 pm

Exactly oxy, or at least you'd think so. Mosley was supposed to be a big strong welterweight who'd be able to boss Floyd around physically and bully him in the ring ( Smile

), but it just didn't happen. Whatever mitigating circumstances people want to trot out, over and over again, Mayweather made Mosley look like an amateur.

by D4thincarnation Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:00 pm

oxring wrote:I don't think you can call anyone who is 41 and 0 a coward, especially when he's taken scalps like Corrales at the top of their game.

As to whether Floyd has chased Manny as hard as he could - has Manny chased Floyd that well? The fight was there if Manny accepted fully randomised WADA testing. And whilst I've defended Manny in the past on the grounds that it isn't for Floyd to make the rules and regulations - it was still his pride that created the first stumbling block for the fight.

Ultimately, no matter how many youtubes suggest the contrary - the fact remains - that anyone who takes on the perceived danger-man of the divison, when he's been on a run which included stopping the "unstoppable force" in Margarito.

Taking on Mosley settles any suggestion that Floyd is a "coward", surely?

Cowardice is the perceived failure to demonstrate sufficient robustness and courage in the face of a challenge.

If Floyd has done this then he is a coward. Margarito, Cotto Pacquiao the 3 biggest challenges to him in his welterweight reign.

If he failed to take any of those fights because of their difficulty, then he is a coward.

Because some has done a brave act it doesn't mean they cannot do a cowardly act, and vice versa.

by Imperial Ghosty Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:02 pm

Much like Pacquiao avoiding many challenges throughout his career most notably at Lightweight and Light Middleweight

by D4thincarnation Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:03 pm

BALTIMORA wrote:
D4thincarnation wrote:
BALTIMORA wrote:
D4thincarnation wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowardice

Cowardice is the perceived failure to demonstrate sufficient robustness and courage in the face of a challenge

A bit like being afraid of needles, right? Wow, a guy would have to be an incredible coward to be afraid of something like a little injection...

A needle is not a challenge, this would be an irrational fear and is a phobia.

I disagree with your postulation dear sir. Multidues of people all over the world have been subjected to the indignation of a hypodermic needles every day. It's a perfectly safe procedure. Turning it down due to a "fear" of needles is unreasonable.

What do you think irrational means?

It is ironic that you don't know what it means.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobia

by BALTIMORA Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:05 pm

D4thincarnation wrote:
oxring wrote:I don't think you can call anyone who is 41 and 0 a coward, especially when he's taken scalps like Corrales at the top of their game.

As to whether Floyd has chased Manny as hard as he could - has Manny chased Floyd that well? The fight was there if Manny accepted fully randomised WADA testing. And whilst I've defended Manny in the past on the grounds that it isn't for Floyd to make the rules and regulations - it was still his pride that created the first stumbling block for the fight.

Ultimately, no matter how many youtubes suggest the contrary - the fact remains - that anyone who takes on the perceived danger-man of the divison, when he's been on a run which included stopping the "unstoppable force" in Margarito.

Taking on Mosley settles any suggestion that Floyd is a "coward", surely?

Cowardice is the perceived failure to demonstrate sufficient robustness and courage in the face of a challenge.

If Floyd has done this then he is a coward. Margarito, Cotto Pacquiao the 3 biggest challenges to him in his welterweight reign.

If he failed to take any of those fights because of their difficulty, then he is a coward.

Because some has done a brave act it doesn't mean they cannot do a cowardly act, and vice versa.

He gave Castillo an immediate rematch in order to clear up any ambiguity over the first result. Some fighters will run from a perceived difficult rematch, until they feel the balance has shifted significantly on their favour.

by Imperial Ghosty Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:06 pm

D4 shut your mouth nobody cares, you've already contradicted your twice in the space of 3/4 posts

Pacquiao is covered in tattoos therefore cannot have an irrational fear of needles, it really is very simple to understand

by BALTIMORA Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:08 pm

D4thincarnation wrote:
BALTIMORA wrote:
D4thincarnation wrote:
BALTIMORA wrote:
D4thincarnation wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowardice

Cowardice is the perceived failure to demonstrate sufficient robustness and courage in the face of a challenge

A bit like being afraid of needles, right? Wow, a guy would have to be an incredible coward to be afraid of something like a little injection...

A needle is not a challenge, this would be an irrational fear and is a phobia.

I disagree with your postulation dear sir. Multidues of people all over the world have been subjected to the indignation of a hypodermic needles every day. It's a perfectly safe procedure. Turning it down due to a "fear" of needles is unreasonable.

What do you think irrational means?

It is ironic that you don't know what it means.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobia

How could anyone who has ever suffered a discussion with yourself not know what 'irrational' means..?

by Liam_Main Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:09 pm

If Floyd was a coward he would of went 41 fights undefeated just facing bums which he hasn't hes beaten a prime Zab Judah,prime Corrales,Marquez,Mosley,Gatti,De La Hoya,Hatton the list goes on.Manny and Floyd have beaten the best in the division are certainly not cowards.A fight between them isn't impossible it remains to be seen if it happens..

by D4thincarnation Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:09 pm

The Mighty Atom wrote:D4 shut your mouth nobody cares, you've already contradicted your twice in the space of 3/4 posts

Pacquiao is covered in tattoos therefore cannot have an irrational fear of needles, it really is very simple to understand

I'm not talking about Pacquiao this topic is not about Pacquiao, I was asked about someone that has a fear of needles.

by Sponsored content