Aviva V Pro 12 lets expore each other myths and not argue (if we can).

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With the H-cup coming up and a few English V Pro 12 teams playing why don't we have a good old Aviva V Pro 12 debate.


2012–13 Pro 12

Attendance
466,151 (average 7,769 per match)

Tries scored
240 (average 4 per match)

Top point scorer
Tom Prydie (Newport Gwent Dragons)
(97 points)

Top try scorer
Tim Visser (Edinburgh)
(10 tries)


2012–13 English Premiership

Attendance
672,949 (average 11,216 per match)

Tries scored
213 (average 3.55 per match)


Top point scorer
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
(143 points)

Top try scorer
Tom Varndell (London Wasps)
(9 tries)

Pro 12 Poorly attended?
To be honest I'm surprised by the Attendance stats; ok the Aviva has had nearly 200000 people more through and an average of 3500 more each game, but for the Pro 12 an average 7,769 per match is pretty good, esp when you consider that the Scots and Italians don't really attract decent crowds, and the double headers for the Aviva would be big crowd boosts (Leinster V Munster does the same though), Between Irish and Welsh home crowds Avg attendance is 9266.3, I don't think th ePro 12 is as badly attended as made out.

Aviva is a snooze feast?
People say the Aviva is boring attritional rugby and Pro 12 free flowing, Tries scored 213 v 240, not sure if this really makes a convincing case, 27 less tries over 60 games means less than 1 try for every two games difference, isn't that big a difference.

Irish teams don't take Pro 12 serously?
Ulster unbeaten top of table, Leinster and Munster in play off positions, think puts that to bed.

Pro 12 teams would struggle in Aviva, as you have to play strongest team each week?
This is brought up alot, Tigers and Harliquins suffer most in Aviva from international windows, but have developed squads to rotate and keep going at the top level all year round. I believe that the Pro 12 teams also have the same depth as these top clubs. There are more internationals in the Pro 12 do the teams may appear to be weaken teams each week, but if they were in the Aviva they would play just the same teams the same as Tigers and Quins do. In fact it is a fairer league as during the call ups all teams lose players, so each has to cope. In Aviva having English players in your squad could be seen as a handicap where in the Pro 12 they are more of a bonus than a handicap.
The fact is that Pro 12 teams play thier international players just as often as the top English teams do (limited about 30-35 games a season), it just that Pro 12 has 4 times the number of international players and hence teams appear weakened 4 times as much.

Attritional nature of Aviva means young players now given a chance?
We have seen plenty of good young English players come though. Aviva has a different structure, where I don't think any of the academies match the Pro 12's, The Aviva has a different appraoh of each club having smaller academies, and purchasing players more often, from smaller clubs. Therefore they do not have to bring as many young players through as pro 12 teams and therefore it seams that they do not give youth a chance, the clubs bring the very top players through and purchase proven performers from Championship/Lower clubs. The English model the top clubs only bring the very best through (smaller numbers) and the rest have to prove themselves in Championship and maybe lower Aviva clubs before moving up and are not youths when they move up, whereas the Pro 12 have to bring all these players though as youths.

No relegration makes pro 12 less competitive?
Super XV, 4 Nations and 6 Nations all have no relegration but are still competitive. No relegration does allow th emodel of bringing more youth through and long term planing. I don't think it give that much more motivation as teams at the bottom want to win, but it does remove some of the pressure. Its prob one we'll all agree to dis agree about relegration has it's good and bad points. what works for one league wonldn't work for Pro 12.

Will we look at more?

Darts is pretty popular, usually in pubs. Do they go to pubs much in Ireland? Another + for England.

And its hard to get home in time for X factor if the Saturday traffic is high.

SecretFly wrote:True, True. But rugby in Ireland has to compete with The Rose of Tralee... so it's quits again.

Then the following really tips the competition back in the Irish favour;

The Feis Ceoil
The Puck Fair
The Mary of Dunloe competition
The Ploughing Championships

These English have it easy really .... what have they got to compete with.... a giant babybel rolling down a hill!

We win hands down....................... nope, Greek Wrestling is NOT number one sport in Ireland! (*cold sweat, watery eyes*) That was just a figure of speech

Tigers still got a crowd of 20k plus on the weekend of the Wittersea Straw Bear festival.

beshocked, you missed out Doncaster in Yorkshire too - it's no coincidence that both Donny and Roth are in South Yorkshire, remore from the M62 corridor of the Rugby League heartlands. Where League flourishes, Union is stifled.

Soccer is still by far and away the biggest competitor, though. When Exeter City play at home in Div 2, the gate at Sandy Park noticeably dips. That's the Chiefs - top try scorers in the Prem, unbeaten at home this season in the Prem, international players galore on the pitch, high feelgood factor, opportunities to wear silly warbonnets and chant nonsense and yet they still lose supporters to the spherical fetishists plying their trade in the 4th level of English football. Sad, isn't it, doubly so in that the South-West is considered to be one of the hotbeds of England's Rugby Union. Still, the queues for beer and pasties are shorter.

We still on about this, I don't know if this started about the Pro 12 being poorly attended but if so then whys it us Irish getting it? and having to say how big GAA is?

Irish rugby has had 242162 people through the gates this year, average attandance 12,745, which is higher than the Aviva's average

Welsh rugby has had 156968 people through the gates this year, average attandance 7474,

Scottish rugby 37146 people though the gates, average attandance 4127

Italian rugby 29875 people though the gates, average attandance 2987

The Irish figure is boosted by the 46,280 that went to Leinster V Munster game. Which adds about 2500 to the average attendance, but if you took the double header out of Aviva's average attendance Ireland would still be about equal maybe slightly higher.

What is intresting is more people attended this game than have gone to see both Glasgow and Edinburgh all season. If the Glasgow Edinburgh derbies could get this it would add about 5000 to thier average attendance

anyways rugby attendance is Ireland is as healthy as it is in England dispite both having thier issues.

What we should focus on is Issues with Scottish and to a lesser extent Welsh attendance. Also Italian figures are very rounded so not 100% sure how they are really doing, 700 for Zebre V Blues is terrible though.

There is a big Gulf in 46,280 Leinster V Munster and 700 Zebre V Blues

I think irish rugby attendances will contiue to grow slighly as Conncht and Ulster are attracting more fans, Munster will battle to keep th ecrowds at the level they are.

Welsh rugby I think will slowly grow from here, Scottish rugby really needs a jump. Glasgow V Edinburgh should be attraching big crowds, SRU need to try and sell on the Glasgow/Edinburgh rivalaly. The two cities always are arguing with each other, and Rugby could really try and get in on it, Football doesn't really do it as they are to many clubs in each, for any of them to be truely Edinburgh V Glasgow games, just part of Glasgow V part of Edinburgh. whereas it could be biuld up more. You know the average Glaswaeign would normally just think posh boys sport, but marketed right it could change to Posh boys sport but hope we beat Edinburgh...

Cool it, Kingshu.... We're trying to claim that we're better than them but worse off I've already won the argument with the Rose of Tralee jamboree. Don't blow it with facts and figures.

Ah Kingshi there you go again with those facts can't you just let us argue lol hopefully when Ravenhill is finished the attendance will go up too. Shall we all just agree rugby is on the up and worry about How badly Ulster will beat Saints this weekend?

The AP is a club league with potential for promotion and relegation. The R12 is a franchise league where international players are consolidated into two or three representative teams. You cannot compare the two structures - they both have different advantages and disadvantages and comparion is pointless. End of.

The interesting bit is when the R12 meet the the AP and T14 in a so called elite cup competition. Currently two of the three leagues want change and one doesn't. I am not going to expand further as it has been done, several times. Given the French wanted a conclusion by Xmas it has though gone extremely quiet.

Interesting that Ulster are receiving UK taxpayer funds For ground development going to a privately owned IRFU franchise. Surprised there hasn't been an antagonistic thread on here on the subject, although I certainly wouldn't be bothered posting on it.

I suppose I have basically become bored with most threads on 606.

What the figures do show is the differnet way rugby has gone , and the apparent success of the celtic league, in Ireland vs the other 3 founders.
The irish tell us its a massive success, the welsh that regionalisation was a disaster.
Question is was this down to the new league and club structures or was it just an extension of what was happening anyway...the growth of the game in Ireland vs its decline in Wales/Scotland?

Recwatcher wrote:The AP is a club league with potential for promotion and relegation. The R12 is a franchise league where international players are consolidated into two or three representative teams. You cannot compare the two structures - they both have different advantages and disadvantages and comparion is pointless. End of.

Interesting that Ulster are receiving UK taxpayer funds For ground development going to a privately owned IRFU franchise. Surprised there hasn't been an antagonistic thread on here on the subject, although I certainly wouldn't be bothered posting on it.

I suppose I have basically become bored with most threads on 606.

Number 1: We all get bored here - believe me. Talking a lot doesn't necessarily mean we're all over-animated about the topics. But you just cruise and offer up your ten cents worth on something as you wait for some real news - with me that's usually the games themselves - watching them and discussing how things are going (Provincial/International).

Number 2: Does the RFU get any funding at all from UK Government sources(taxpayers)? I genuinely don't know. But if the answer is yes then I'd asume other parts of the UK would have rights to a slice of that pie?

Yeah that is a complicated situation it's to improve sports infrastructure in Northern Ireland. GAA, Rugby and Soccer all get a slice of the action after the Maze redevelopment fell through. Complicated situation and its best we leave it at that. I am certainly not complaining.

DisneyMaze fell through?

I was looking forward to the rollercoaster ride past the cells where animatronic prisoners would reach out from their cells and try to grab you.

so we're done with that bit,

what about international players in the Aviva prem are made play to many games and are injuried more, or are not rested enough and run out of stream come the buiness end of the season, where pro 12 teams are better rested and have more energy?

True or myth?

For this one I'd say it has a ring of truth to it, Saints said so in the Final V leinster, but then you could blame that on poor management playing players to often, Squads not being strong enough to allow players to be rested in certain games, wage cap not allowing more depth to rotate players.

but also myth as English internationals are limited in the number of games they can play in a season (32?) so they have to be rested at some points as they can't play in every game in the league. Just that Pro 12 teams have more international players so therefore have more of the rested players.

Kingshu wrote:
but also myth as English internationals are limited in the number of games they can play in a season (32?) so they have to be rested at some points as they can't play in every game in the league. Just that Pro 12 teams have more international players so therefore have more of the rested players.

There are only between 28 and 33 games in R12 and AP seasons (Not counting the LV cup) So it is close to impossible for any AP player to play more than 32 games.

More likely in the Top 14 because there are 4 extra rounds and an extra playoff.

The main reason Northampton players played so many games that year was lack of depth. Leinster used their depth last season to keep their squad healthy and had close to a full deck at the end of the season. This was down to masterful rotation by uncle Joe rather than the player welfare programme of the IRFU. The player welfare programme has left us seriously undercooked in the first half of this season. Due to us being unable to field Ireland players for the 1st month of the season. (inc friendlies)

This is the price of success with so many players starting for Ireland.

Yeah the site of the old Maze prison was to be redeveloped into a brand new all purpose stadium. But due to political and infrastructure reasons eventually the plan was scrapped. The money then got shared out between Rugby, GAA and Football. Rugby with Ravenhill and Football with Windsor park are redeveloping their grounds am not sure as of yet what GAA is doing I'm sure someone may be able to enlighten us there.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Kingshu wrote:
but also myth as English internationals are limited in the number of games they can play in a season (32?) so they have to be rested at some points as they can't play in every game in the league. Just that Pro 12 teams have more international players so therefore have more of the rested players.

There are only between 28 and 33 games in R12 and AP seasons (Not counting the LV cup) So it is close to impossible for any AP player to play more than 32 games.

More likely in the Top 14 because there are 4 extra rounds and an extra playoff.

The main reason Northampton players played so many games that year was lack of depth. Leinster used their depth last season to keep their squad healthy and had close to a full deck at the end of the season. This was down to masterful rotation by uncle Joe rather than the player welfare programme of the IRFU. The player welfare programme has left us seriously undercooked in the first half of this season. Due to us being unable to field Ireland players for the 1st month of the season. (inc friendlies)

This is the price of success with so many players starting for Ireland.

I know how you feel Jennifer our players don't even start and we still don't get them lol

neilthom7 wrote:Yeah the site of the old Maze prison was to be redeveloped into a brand new all purpose stadium. But due to political and infrastructure reasons eventually the plan was scrapped. The money then got shared out between Rugby, GAA and Football. Rugby with Ravenhill and Football with Windsor park are redeveloping their grounds am not sure as of yet what GAA is doing I'm sure someone may be able to enlighten us there.

Casement Park is being turned into a 40,000 all seater stadium. Ulster Gaelic football final is going to move from Clones to Casement, and some other big games each year. All the Ulster and Antrim club/Provincial finals. I've wondered if Ulster rugby would move big games there instead of NLR, sort of bridge building growing support in the wesh, but I can see the Ulster GAA not permitting it, and IRFU wanting to generate more income from NLR.

Kingshu wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:Yeah the site of the old Maze prison was to be redeveloped into a brand new all purpose stadium. But due to political and infrastructure reasons eventually the plan was scrapped. The money then got shared out between Rugby, GAA and Football. Rugby with Ravenhill and Football with Windsor park are redeveloping their grounds am not sure as of yet what GAA is doing I'm sure someone may be able to enlighten us there.

Casement Park is being turned into a 40,000 all seater stadium. Ulster Gaelic football final is going to move from Clones to Casement, and some other big games each year. All the Ulster and Antrim club/Provincial finals. I've wondered if Ulster rugby would move big games there instead of NLR, sort of bridge building growing support in the wesh, but I can see the Ulster GAA not permitting it, and IRFU wanting to generate more income from NLR.

Thats a good point Kingshu it would stay in Ulster the question is would the GAA be on for it? I don't think the IRFU would want it either because they probably need to generate the money from the Aviva anytime they can. It comes down tot he question though that we had about a RWC where if Ireland had wanted to bid we would need GAA stadiums. I mean there are 3 currently I think that are over 50,000 in the GAA they would be invaluable to a rugby world cup but that's a whole other issue.

I think Antrimm GAA would be all for it, but on some boards you get some bitter showers sitting on them , and it would be an Ulster GAA decision. I saw an Ulster shirt on someone living near the falls in summer, it was something I didn't expect.

Would like Big games at Casement rather than NLR, but like said unlikily IRFU or Ulster GAA would be to keen.

Imagine it was a Sunday game and moved to Casement, don't think there would be any protests there about playing on a sunday!

From a cross coumminity thing it would do alot to generate more support in Nationalist areas, still see more Munster shirts than Ulster ones.

It's an interesting idea. Do you think the principle of rugby being played in a GAA ground in Ulster or the level of rent that Ulster GAA would look for would be the bigger issue?


I'd be interested to see how would Pro12 and Jeff teams compare in how they use their player budgets. I get the impression that the marquee 1-2 players in each team might be on similar amounts but that the Jeff has far more money wrapped up in the rest of the first team players while the Pro12 manages to maintain a squad for a lower overall price. Is there a problem with too much money going on mid-level quality guys?

Yeah its getting better though which is good I have several mates who are Ulster supporter who live in the falls and they wear their jerseys all the time. Which is great for the sport as is the attempts to get Donegal interested more. I think Ulster has done a lot of very positive work to expand it's base/audience recently and it should be commended. I agree with you to have it in Belfast not in Dublin would be better and I don't know if the Ulster GAA council would go for it but I can be nearly sure the IRFU would want it at NLR so they can make money from it. Such a pity.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:It's an interesting idea. Do you think the principle of rugby being played in a GAA ground in Ulster or the level of rent that Ulster GAA would look for would be the bigger issue?


I'd be interested to see how would Pro12 and Jeff teams compare in how they use their player budgets. I get the impression that the marquee 1-2 players in each team might be on similar amounts but that the Jeff has far more money wrapped up in the rest of the first team players while the Pro12 manages to maintain a squad for a lower overall price. Is there a problem with too much money going on mid-level quality guys?

I think the biggest issue would be IRFU wanting to make money out of the Aviva and so wanting it there. I think Ulster rugby fans would not have a problem with it in a GAA stadium. Some may not want to go for their own reasons and that would be their choice and anyone who would be very vocal about it or whatever we probably don't want supporting the team. Ulster is striving to be a cross community team that anyone can get involved in and I may say is progressing well with it. Kudo's to them.

neilthom7 wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:It's an interesting idea. Do you think the principle of rugby being played in a GAA ground in Ulster or the level of rent that Ulster GAA would look for would be the bigger issue?


I'd be interested to see how would Pro12 and Jeff teams compare in how they use their player budgets. I get the impression that the marquee 1-2 players in each team might be on similar amounts but that the Jeff has far more money wrapped up in the rest of the first team players while the Pro12 manages to maintain a squad for a lower overall price. Is there a problem with too much money going on mid-level quality guys?

I think the biggest issue would be IRFU wanting to make money out of the Aviva and so wanting it there. I think Ulster rugby fans would not have a problem with it in a GAA stadium. Some may not want to go for their own reasons and that would be their choice and anyone who would be very vocal about it or whatever we probably don't want supporting the team. Ulster is striving to be a cross community team that anyone can get involved in and I may say is progressing well with it. Kudo's to them.

Ulster GAA are also not afraid of a pound note either so they might be up for it. I come from a very staunch GAA background plenty of GAA folk watch the rugby now as well. The Ulster branch could do with a doing a bit more work in certain area's and try and get a wider variety of schools involved

It would be good for Ulster too cos guys who maybe aren't quite good enough to be GAA for their county could play rugby. We have already seen how the skills crossover (see Tommy Bowe and Rob Kearney theory)

I would say that it wouldn't be a case of those who wern't good enough for GAA far from it. Kearney and bowe would easily of player inter county senior football no problem. Its just another player base for them to tap into

Oh I don't mean those guys weren't I just mean its another player base that could be exploited.

A lot of the munster fellas would of played gaa for example

I think keeping people in the game should be an objective. I was part of a High School that won a high schools plate and there are I think 2 of us still playing rugby so that kind if loss needs to be addressed. Outside of the big grammer schools a lot of player with potential are lost because they don't keep going. Some of the players in that team had real potential but not don't play.

I think the real question would be
"how on earth can you guys go on so long about this non debate?"

Why do we not see NZ and SA who have very good domestic competitions arguing about whose is better, tougher etc.
NZ teams for example can play 3 games a fortnight for part time salaries in the driving rain with crowds less than 1000 sometimes (some of these games have ABs in them.) We don't compare our competition to the Currie Cup.

I think the real question is why are you reading something which you claim to have no interest in?

fair point nganboy, it brings up another possible myth.

The Pro 12 V Aviva debates are mostly started by the Welsh when they beat an english side?

or

When a Welsh team loses its the ref's fault?

or

Irish fans are too nice and friendly that I can't bring myself to dislike them, even though I kinda want to?

or

English fans aren't as bad as made out?

True or myths?

nganboy wrote:I think the real question would be
"how on earth can you guys go on so long about this non debate?"

Why do we not see NZ and SA who have very good domestic competitions arguing about whose is better, tougher etc.
NZ teams for example can play 3 games a fortnight for part time salaries in the driving rain with crowds less than 1000 sometimes (some of these games have ABs in them.) We don't compare our competition to the Currie Cup.

Probably the best: "We're better than you but we have it tougher" line of the whole thread.

Meanwhile, a lot of the 'we're better than you' debate is a lot of tongue-in-cheek nonsense nganboy. We're also quite good at that - not taking ourselves too seriously and enjoying the mock verbal 'debates'.

I think the Pro 12 attendances arent helped by the fact that venues are spread out over 4 diffenent countries where as the AP is concentrated in on country and therefore it is a lot easier for away fans to travel to matches.

Dunno GunsGerms, partly I'd say.

you have 4 teams very close together in Wales, don't think you will get 4 teams closer in the prem, then the two Scottish clubs are closer than Exeter V Newcastle or Cornish Pirates V Leeds 9jounery is harder mind), Leinster are only a boat trip away. (plenty of Ulster fans travel to Glasgow on an wee boat trip), meaning for Welsh fans Munster, Ulster Connacht and the Italians are the difficult trips.

Can't really group together, inter pro will always be travelled to, for Ulster the Scottish teams are easy enough to get to, Welsh and Italian more difficult,
leinster Scottish more difficult Welsh easier
Munster/Connact all outside Ireland arkward

Scottish Ulster and Welsh regions are attenable and Ulster, rest are difficult.

Italians all away games are really difficult.

So over all its not that bad really, for welsh 3/11 games really easy to get to, 3/11 take a bit more effort (about same effort as longest trips in Aviva) 3/11 a wee bit more than before, 2/11 really hard, but can be disguised as treats for the Mrs.

GunsGerms wrote:I think the Pro 12 attendances arent helped by the fact that venues are spread out over 4 diffenent countries where as the AP is concentrated in on country and therefore it is a lot easier for away fans to travel to matches.

I agree with part of this, but when the poor travelling support can match the home support (say Ulster/Leinster going to Edinburgh) something is definitely up with the ability of the home team to get bums on seats.

Its understanbly difficult for Ulster to get bums on seats when their fan song is "Stand Up"

when yoour in the terrace peter you don't really have a choice.

ignore went on wrong thread

I agree Kinshu on closeness but a boat ride aint a walk in the park, book tickets before hand and you still have to drive on the other side unless you cant drive then you have to take a plan most likely and all the hassle with that. So while it's not overally tough however its not easy either. Also I don't think away support is whats making the difference in the poor attendences in Scotland, Italy or Wales.