Aviva V Pro 12 lets expore each other myths and not argue (if we can).

First topic message reminder :

With the H-cup coming up and a few English V Pro 12 teams playing why don't we have a good old Aviva V Pro 12 debate.


2012–13 Pro 12

Attendance
466,151 (average 7,769 per match)

Tries scored
240 (average 4 per match)

Top point scorer
Tom Prydie (Newport Gwent Dragons)
(97 points)

Top try scorer
Tim Visser (Edinburgh)
(10 tries)


2012–13 English Premiership

Attendance
672,949 (average 11,216 per match)

Tries scored
213 (average 3.55 per match)


Top point scorer
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
(143 points)

Top try scorer
Tom Varndell (London Wasps)
(9 tries)

Pro 12 Poorly attended?
To be honest I'm surprised by the Attendance stats; ok the Aviva has had nearly 200000 people more through and an average of 3500 more each game, but for the Pro 12 an average 7,769 per match is pretty good, esp when you consider that the Scots and Italians don't really attract decent crowds, and the double headers for the Aviva would be big crowd boosts (Leinster V Munster does the same though), Between Irish and Welsh home crowds Avg attendance is 9266.3, I don't think th ePro 12 is as badly attended as made out.

Aviva is a snooze feast?
People say the Aviva is boring attritional rugby and Pro 12 free flowing, Tries scored 213 v 240, not sure if this really makes a convincing case, 27 less tries over 60 games means less than 1 try for every two games difference, isn't that big a difference.

Irish teams don't take Pro 12 serously?
Ulster unbeaten top of table, Leinster and Munster in play off positions, think puts that to bed.

Pro 12 teams would struggle in Aviva, as you have to play strongest team each week?
This is brought up alot, Tigers and Harliquins suffer most in Aviva from international windows, but have developed squads to rotate and keep going at the top level all year round. I believe that the Pro 12 teams also have the same depth as these top clubs. There are more internationals in the Pro 12 do the teams may appear to be weaken teams each week, but if they were in the Aviva they would play just the same teams the same as Tigers and Quins do. In fact it is a fairer league as during the call ups all teams lose players, so each has to cope. In Aviva having English players in your squad could be seen as a handicap where in the Pro 12 they are more of a bonus than a handicap.
The fact is that Pro 12 teams play thier international players just as often as the top English teams do (limited about 30-35 games a season), it just that Pro 12 has 4 times the number of international players and hence teams appear weakened 4 times as much.

Attritional nature of Aviva means young players now given a chance?
We have seen plenty of good young English players come though. Aviva has a different structure, where I don't think any of the academies match the Pro 12's, The Aviva has a different appraoh of each club having smaller academies, and purchasing players more often, from smaller clubs. Therefore they do not have to bring as many young players through as pro 12 teams and therefore it seams that they do not give youth a chance, the clubs bring the very top players through and purchase proven performers from Championship/Lower clubs. The English model the top clubs only bring the very best through (smaller numbers) and the rest have to prove themselves in Championship and maybe lower Aviva clubs before moving up and are not youths when they move up, whereas the Pro 12 have to bring all these players though as youths.

No relegration makes pro 12 less competitive?
Super XV, 4 Nations and 6 Nations all have no relegration but are still competitive. No relegration does allow th emodel of bringing more youth through and long term planing. I don't think it give that much more motivation as teams at the bottom want to win, but it does remove some of the pressure. Its prob one we'll all agree to dis agree about relegration has it's good and bad points. what works for one league wonldn't work for Pro 12.

Will we look at more?

We're proving that logic is a handy thing in discussions.

Kingshu wrote:

beshocked wrote:When did I say rugby union was the number one sport in Ireland?

Secretfly you'll need to give me some average attendances of hurling and gaelic football. I can't find them.

I found normal football in Ireland. The attendances from 2010 is pretty shocking. Average 1602.

It'll be difficult to get them, for a start each county runs its own League, so about 32 leagues of equal strenght (you can't really say that the Armagh league is better than the Tyrone League, then each league has normally about 4 divisions (some bigger counties more some smaller counties less) and thats just Gaelic Football, Hurling is divided pretty much same way, but would have fewer divisions.

So at a rough guess there are 128 divisions in Gaelic football and maybe 80 in Hurling. 32 prem divisions (64 if you include hurling) 32 second divisions (64 if hurling included) etc makes getting attandance figures hard to get, plus its an amature organisation so someone would have to volentalry compile these?

What about this
There are 2,099 rugby clubs in England, Pop 53 million
There are 2,319 GAA clubs in Ireland, pop 6.3 million

Basically what you are saying that it's pretty much impossible to quantify how popular GAA and Hurling really are.

From the sounds of it it's pretty obvious that rugby union has a completely different structure which gives it an edge.

With just 4 sides competing in the Pro12 it simplifies things quite a bit. As I said large catchment areas mean it's easier to attract support.

The 4 clubs compete in competitions with other countries too.

Looking into it England do have it tough with football, but I think this is all a waste of time, each country has its own Issues. Like I said England do a good job and Ireland as well. Wales Scotalnd and Italy need to catch up, once they do the Pro 12 averages would be similar to Aviva.

beshocked wrote:If it's just about size of population why isn't rugby big in China and India with populations over a billion?

How about USA? Population of 300m

You are really underestimating competition.

The likes of ManU, Arsenal,Liverpool and Chelsea are clubs known throughout the world. Could you say the same of Gaelic clubs?

Why doesn't England beat New Zealand at rugby every time the blighters show up? Yes, we remember the weekend! Now- answer the question. Why? You should? You should also top Australia in rankings. What's the point in asking the question about China. China aren't interested in rugby...yet! That's why rugby isn't big.

The reasoning here is enjoyable. It was Me who told You that English Premiership sides are regarded as home sides to a great swathe of Irish people. Am I one of them? Nope. But can I put up barbed wire at airports and ferry terminals? Nope. Again, beshocked - no need to tell me how popular Engish Premiership football is throughout the world - I told you.

What that has to do with the world popularity of Gaelic games I do- not- know. The only point that matters is that Gaelic games is super popular where they are played - Ireland. So to repeat, competition exists for English rugby,competition exists for Irish rugby. 55 million still spreads better than 6 million.

Kingshu the big plus for the Pro12 is Italy. If Treviso and Aironi in particular get better it will significantly boost the qualify of the Pro12 and improve attendances.

Gaelic Games are also relatively popular on the east coast of USA for those wondering the traditional Irish settlement cities. I know this has absolutely nothing to do with Rugby in Ireland but since some people think it has I thought I would add it. You're Welcome

So the Pro12 is better because it cant compete with the GAA and the Jeff is better because it cant compete with snooker.

Glad we cleared that up.

beshocked wrote:

Basically what you are saying that it's pretty much impossible to quantify how popular GAA and Hurling really are.

From the sounds of it it's pretty obvious that rugby union has a completely different structure which gives it an edge.

With just 4 sides competing in the Pro12 it simplifies things quite a bit. As I said large catchment areas mean it's easier to attract support.

The 4 clubs compete in competitions with other countries too.

Just what does that mean beshocked? What does it mean? What's it meant to point out? That we're wrong in saying rugby is much less popular as a followed sport in Ireland? That rugby MUST have a better following because it has a more professional structure? That facts are again wrong somehow and that theory should hold sway over facts and give rugby the high ground?

Rugby is a smaller followed, smaller participation, smaller revenues, smaller TV investment sport in Ireland than GAA sports. Simple. It's true.

beshocked wrote:If it's just about size of population why isn't rugby big in China and India with populations over a billion?

How about USA? Population of 300m

You are really underestimating competition.

The likes of ManU, Arsenal,Liverpool and Chelsea are clubs known throughout the world. Could you say the same of Gaelic clubs?

The difference in competition that rugby union in Ireland faces is nothing compared to that of rugby union in England. Rugby union also has to face rugby league as well as football if we are talking about sports relatively similar.

Also Ireland has 4 provinces. 1 club per province.

Munster can call upon a catchment area of about 1.2m.

Leinster - 2.5m

Ulster - 2.1m

Connacht - 542,000

Those are pretty healthy populations to work with.

Connacht can be let off a bit because their population is a lot lower.

Compare this to Leicestershire which has a population of around 980,000. Also Leicester Tigers have to compete with Leicester City who have average crowds of around 21k.

Travelling to and from thomond park is a 5 or 6 journey from some parts of Munster. So there are disadvantages. Its also impossible for large sections of the population to take up rugby due to having no nearby rugby club.

On the othr hand there are more fields available for rural people to use than people living in high populated urban areas.

beshocked wrote:Kingshu the big plus for the Pro12 is Italy. If Treviso and Aironi in particular get better it will significantly boost the qualify of the Pro12 and improve attendances.

Don't think Aironi will ever get beigger crowds than zero for next few years, Zebre on the other hand.

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:If it's just about size of population why isn't rugby big in China and India with populations over a billion?

How about USA? Population of 300m

You are really underestimating competition.

The likes of ManU, Arsenal,Liverpool and Chelsea are clubs known throughout the world. Could you say the same of Gaelic clubs?

Why doesn't England beat New Zealand at rugby every time the blighters show up? Yes, we remember the weekend! Now- answer the question. Why? You should? You should also top Australia in rankings. What's the point in asking the question about China. China aren't interested in rugby...yet! That's why rugby isn't big.

The reasoning here is enjoyable. It was Me who told You that English Premiership sides are regarded as home sides to a great swathe of Irish people. Am I one of them? Nope. But can I put up barbed wire at airports and ferry terminals? Nope. Again, beshocked - no need to tell me how popular Engish Premiership football is throughout the world - I told you.

What that has to do with the world popularity of Gaelic games I do- not- know. The only point that matters is that Gaelic games is super popular where they are played - Ireland. So to repeat, competition exists for English rugby,competition exists for Irish rugby. 55 million still spreads better than 6 million.

You told me how popular football is in the world? Do you genuinely believe that? I've been the one saying how popular football is - particularly in England.

Super popular yet you can't quantify this with attendance figures or viewing figures.

Just to repeat GAA is nowhere near as popular as football. Don't even think they are close. They are not.

Munster,Ulster and Leinster have bigger catchment areas to work with than Leicester and Saints.

This whole 55m vs 6m is a lot of rubbish. It's based on a club by club basis.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:So the Pro12 is better because it cant compete with the GAA and the Jeff is better because it cant compete with snooker.

Glad we cleared that up.

Correct...it seems.

Although it's beshock's queries that needed the clarification in the first place. I've said above that we like our own Leagues for our own reasons - validating both in the process. But it seems Simon Cowell has infected the world with his 'Vote now' syndrome. We can't just agree to operate side by side with the occasional flurry between each other in the HEC...nope, not phone voty enough for the addicts. Let's do a "Which is Better?" tally on it instead.

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Basically what you are saying that it's pretty much impossible to quantify how popular GAA and Hurling really are.

From the sounds of it it's pretty obvious that rugby union has a completely different structure which gives it an edge.

With just 4 sides competing in the Pro12 it simplifies things quite a bit. As I said large catchment areas mean it's easier to attract support.

The 4 clubs compete in competitions with other countries too.

Just what does that mean beshocked? What does it mean? What's it meant to point out? That we're wrong in saying rugby is much less popular as a followed sport in Ireland? That rugby MUST have a better following because it has a more professional structure? That facts are again wrong somehow and that theory should hold sway over facts and give rugby the high ground?

Rugby is a smaller followed, smaller participation, smaller revenues, smaller TV investment sport in Ireland than GAA sports. Simple. It's true.

Mcllroy goes on TV as an Ulster fan, talking about the rugby union side. Haven't heard him talking up a GAA side or player.

You haven't exactly proved yourself right. Don't underestimate brand awareness too. Perceptions can be very strong too.You can huff and puff and say how popular GAA is but most of us outside Ireland no virtually nothing about the sport. Couldn't name a player or club.

Any figures to back up this statement of yours?

beshocked wrote:

This whole 55m vs 6m is a lot of rubbish. .

It's not rubbish. It's the most prominent Stat fact you can't escape from. It's too big to hide it beneath less important stats. It won't go away. Population is people - people are the things that fill stadiums. If you have more of them, you have more potential to fill more stadiums. That's numbers brought down to the basics of the guy who sits beside you at a club game; the very topic you're discussing.

I repeat, if population means nothing and All Pro12 sides should have stadiums as full as AP stadiums, I say impossible. Bad stat reading. If our crowds grew to the capacities enjoyed by rugby union in England then proportionally so too should AP rugby following itself grow to unrealistic proportions - massive stadiums with over 200,000 seats would be needed. Proportionality means there are less cars, less TVs, and less people in Ireland - and Wales...and Scotland than there is in England. People sit in seats, not stats.

The Aussies who like Aussie Football could name a few they play against each other regularly enough. Also to say something is not the most popular sport in a country because you dont know it is ridiculous can you name an Aussie Rules player? Can you name a Chinesse footballer, basketball player, badmington or Table tennis player these are the most popular sports there? Wise up, and tbh who cares which is the best as it is purely an opinion on which is best and is likely to be influenced by who you support.

beshocked wrote:You haven't exactly proved yourself right. Don't underestimate brand awareness too. Perceptions can be very strong too.You can huff and puff and say how popular GAA is but most of us outside Ireland no virtually nothing about the sport. Couldn't name a player or club.

What relevancy does this have to the argument of how popular GAA is in Ireland?

beshocked wrote:Mcllroy goes on TV as an Ulster fan, talking about the rugby union side. Haven't heard him talking up a GAA side or player.

You haven't exactly proved yourself right. Don't underestimate brand awareness too. Perceptions can be very strong too.You can huff and puff and say how popular GAA is but most of us outside Ireland no virtually nothing about the sport. Couldn't name a player or club.

You just argue for the sake of it beshocked. Has to be that because I can't work out some of these statements.

It is not for you to know GAA players or clubs. You don't have to know a blessed thing about them. The argument about GAA doesn't need your approval through personal awareness. You know all NFL sides and players? You know all Canadian icehockey sides and players? You don't need to be aware for the players and the clubs to exist. You've had your stats given to you about how many GAA clubs there are, the density of them...and any wandering UK tourist travelling through Ireland with a passing interest in sport will know all about how popular GAA sport is in Ireland - mostly maybe for the hold-up on narrow roads when cars are parked right on them as their owners go watch the fist-figh...I mean game between different parishes!!! You know you have the tools to look up GAA. You know you can get semi finals/finals etc on YouTube...look at the crowds. I'm not going to prove something exists to you as though we live in the stone age.

Just find a route out of this and agree that we both have rugby Leagues that work for us.... that'll do me for now.

So in conclusion, rugby is a minority sport in most countries?


The aim for attendances in the GB countries must be to enrourage the 'causual fan' who enjoys their boozy day out at Twickenham, Cardiff or Murrayfield to start turning up and taking an interest in domestic matters. I say GB because Ireland seem to have things the other way around!

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:

This whole 55m vs 6m is a lot of rubbish. .

It's not rubbish. It's the most prominent Stat fact you can't escape from. It's too big to hide it beneath less important stats. It won't go away. Population is people - people are the things that fill stadiums. If you have more of them, you have more potential to fill more stadiums. That's numbers brought down to the basics of the guy who sits beside you at a club game; the very topic you're discussing.

I repeat, if population means nothing and All Pro12 sides should have stadiums as full as AP stadiums, I say impossible. Bad stat reading. If our crowds grew to the capacities enjoyed by rugby union in England then proportionally so too should AP rugby following itself grow to unrealistic proportions - massive stadiums with over 200,000 seats would be needed. Proportionality means there are less cars, less TVs, and less people in Ireland - and Wales...and Scotland than there is in England. People sit in seats, not stats.

It doesn't tell you the whole story. Stats need context.

Ok let's try and get some things we agree upon.

Do you agree the football is a more popular sport than GAA globally?

Would you agree that English rugby has the tougher competition?

As I said there are more people in other countries like USA,China. This does not turn into rugby attendances.

You can talk about population till you are blue in the face but you need the interest.

Telling me how many GAA clubs there are tells me there are a lot of people playing Doesn't tell me anything about respective attendances.

Ok semis and finals tell me GAA can get big crowds for big games. Don't most sports?

The rugby clubs in Ireland have a nice juicy catchment area, rival sports whose attendances can't be worked out. Sounds like Irish rugby clubs could and should be doing more to be honest.

[quote="Bathman_in_London"]So in conclusion, rugby is a minority sport in most countries.[/]

Quote of the thread. Brevity is the soul of wit. True too. Now why couldn't we have just deduced that much earlier in this debate?

We have Secret some people who cannot get their head round simple maths etc cannot. Also let me add something on Beshocked logic with Sale the only team representing the north of England a substantial area and population mass surely they should have millions of supporters if they just tried a bit harder. Wise up Beshocked I seriously think you are just arguing to urine people off now because you are only making yourself look ignorant.

[quote="SecretFly"]

Bathman_in_London wrote:So in conclusion, rugby is a minority sport in most countries.[/]

Quote of the thread. Brevity is the soul of wit. True too. Now why couldn't we have just deduced that much earlier in this debate?

Just as well I clicked on this thread then! Now, lets see if I can find any fledgling debates to smother early on to avoid a repeat...!

beshocked wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:

This whole 55m vs 6m is a lot of rubbish. .

It's not rubbish. It's the most prominent Stat fact you can't escape from. It's too big to hide it beneath less important stats. It won't go away. Population is people - people are the things that fill stadiums. If you have more of them, you have more potential to fill more stadiums. That's numbers brought down to the basics of the guy who sits beside you at a club game; the very topic you're discussing.

I repeat, if population means nothing and All Pro12 sides should have stadiums as full as AP stadiums, I say impossible. Bad stat reading. If our crowds grew to the capacities enjoyed by rugby union in England then proportionally so too should AP rugby following itself grow to unrealistic proportions - massive stadiums with over 200,000 seats would be needed. Proportionality means there are less cars, less TVs, and less people in Ireland - and Wales...and Scotland than there is in England. People sit in seats, not stats.

It doesn't tell you the whole story. Stats need context.

Ok let's try and get some things we agree upon.

Do you agree the football is a more popular sport than GAA globally?

Would you agree that English rugby has the tougher competition?

As I said there are more people in other countries like USA,China. This does not turn into rugby attendances.

You can talk about population till you are blue in the face but you need the interest.

Telling me how many GAA clubs there are tells me there are a lot of people playing Doesn't tell me anything about respective attendances.

Ok semis and finals tell me GAA can get big crowds for big games. Don't most sports?

The rugby clubs in Ireland have a nice juicy catchment area, rival sports whose attendances can't be worked out. Sounds like Irish rugby clubs could and should be doing more to be honest.

Sorry, beshocked...all that tells me is that you're sticking with your line that we both have competition, but yet again ye olde England still have the bigger headache because (of all things!) English football gets shown globally.

That doesn't make any sense to me beshocked. It still makes no sense. Yes, English rugby has a big brother to fight against in England - and yes, he's called Premiership football - and then yes too, that goes down into even lesser leagues which still suck up great sections of the population (sorry for mentioning it - but you see, it always has to be mentioned as sections of population is what competition for them is all about) So yes, English rugby is not the main sport in England. Nobody has said it is. Nobody. We know it isn't because unlike you, we take a look across the Irish sea now and again and know how popular English football is.

English rugby fights for fans/followers with English football (the big brother with the big chequebook) That's all your point needs. It doesn't require the concept that English football is popular globally to make it work. That English football is popular globally is irrelevant as Australian fans of Manchester aren't going to be taking up many seats at the stadium. BUT....... a good many Irish fans actually will be taking up some seats. Which means? Yep, English football plays big brother to Irish rugby too - my earlier point.

Now, what I'm telling you (not suggesting it - telling you) is that Irish rugby fights for fans/followers with GAA (the big brother with the big chequebook - bigger still because the players are amateurs). GAA doesn't have to be popular globally to make that the domestic Irish reality. Irish rugby is small brother to GAA - and it is also small brother to English Premiership (football). You have a very limited knowledge of Ireland if you don't already know this to be true. Irish housing estates are practically like English housing estates - Chelsea kits, Man U shirts, Player haircuts...the lot.

My point - not only English rugby suffers under the cloud of English football, so too does Irish rugby...and I'm sure the same is true for Welsh and Scottish rugby. They all face down the ever popular presence of football as a lure for their young men's attentions, on TV, in pubs or at games themselves. Irish provinces are doing enough - and proving it Irish rugby is growing but it'll grow gradually. We're fine. Look after your own house.

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:

This whole 55m vs 6m is a lot of rubbish. .

It's not rubbish. It's the most prominent Stat fact you can't escape from. It's too big to hide it beneath less important stats. It won't go away. Population is people - people are the things that fill stadiums. If you have more of them, you have more potential to fill more stadiums. That's numbers brought down to the basics of the guy who sits beside you at a club game; the very topic you're discussing.

I repeat, if population means nothing and All Pro12 sides should have stadiums as full as AP stadiums, I say impossible. Bad stat reading. If our crowds grew to the capacities enjoyed by rugby union in England then proportionally so too should AP rugby following itself grow to unrealistic proportions - massive stadiums with over 200,000 seats would be needed. Proportionality means there are less cars, less TVs, and less people in Ireland - and Wales...and Scotland than there is in England. People sit in seats, not stats.

It doesn't tell you the whole story. Stats need context.

Ok let's try and get some things we agree upon.

Do you agree the football is a more popular sport than GAA globally?

Would you agree that English rugby has the tougher competition?

As I said there are more people in other countries like USA,China. This does not turn into rugby attendances.

You can talk about population till you are blue in the face but you need the interest.

Telling me how many GAA clubs there are tells me there are a lot of people playing Doesn't tell me anything about respective attendances.

Ok semis and finals tell me GAA can get big crowds for big games. Don't most sports?

The rugby clubs in Ireland have a nice juicy catchment area, rival sports whose attendances can't be worked out. Sounds like Irish rugby clubs could and should be doing more to be honest.

Sorry, beshocked...all that tells me is that you're sticking with your line that we both have competition, but yet again ye olde England still have the bigger headache because (of all things!) English football gets shown globally.

That doesn't make any sense to me beshocked. It still makes no sense. Yes, English rugby has a big brother to fight against in England - and yes, he's called Premiership football - and then yes too, that goes down into even lesser leagues which still suck up great sections of the population (sorry for mentioning it - but you see, it always has to be mentioned as sections of population is what competition for them is all about) So yes, English rugby is not the main sport in England. Nobody has said it is. Nobody. We know it isn't because unlike you, we take a look across the Irish sea now and again and know how popular English football is.

English rugby fights for fans/followers with English football (the big brother with the big chequebook) That's all your point needs. It doesn't require the concept that English football is popular globally to make it work. That English football is popular globally is irrelevant as Australian fans of Manchester aren't going to be taking up many seats at the stadium. BUT....... a good many Irish fans actually will be taking up some seats. Which means? Yep, English football plays big brother to Irish rugby too - my earlier point.

Now, what I'm telling you (not suggesting it - telling you) is that Irish rugby fights for fans/followers with GAA (the big brother with the big chequebook - bigger still because the players are amateurs). GAA doesn't have to be popular globally to make that the domestic Irish reality. Irish rugby is small brother to GAA - and it is also small brother to English Premiership (football). You have a very limited knowledge of Ireland if you don't already know this to be true. Irish housing estates are practically like English housing estates - Chelsea kits, Man U shirts, Player haircuts...the lot.

My point - not only English rugby suffers under the cloud of English football, so too does Irish rugby...and I'm sure the same is true for Welsh and Scottish rugby. They all face down the ever popular presence of football as a lure for their young men's attentions, on TV, in pubs or at games themselves. Irish provinces are doing enough - and proving it Irish rugby is growing but it'll grow gradually. We're fine. Look after your own house.

well said sir and you know it's not often us Irish agree with each other except that Kidney shouldn't be head coach off course

Ah we agree on a lot of things, neil...it's just we like to dress it up as a disagreement to get a good chat going

Kinda makes me think we should make beshocked an honourary one!

SecretFly wrote:Ah we agree on a lot of things, neil...it's just we like to dress it up as a disagreement to get a good chat going

Kinda makes me think we should make beshocked an honourary one!

He could make a good Munster fan
I think the original question was can we all have a debate about this without arguing I think the answer is clearly no lol

I was actually going to put a question in the Ulster/Northampton thread and the Leinster/Clermont one...kind of a serious one too....

Where the hell have all the Munstermen got to? Big HEC weekend, no article that I can see and no cruising around by the Munster regulars. Strange.

Yeah I noticed that secretfly good point maybe Beshocked has swallowed them all up to become one giant Munster fan?

http://www.esri.ie/pdf/BKMNINT180_Main%20Text_Social%20and%20Economic%20Value%20of%20Sport.pdf

This gives a decent account of the differing popularity of sports in Ireland,it's fairly dry but start from page 11 and you'll find some nice info on G.A.A.,soccer and rugby.

It doesn't give a whole load of stats and it is 6 years old so not fully up to date but I'm pretty sure it's still broadly accurate.

Assuming the average combined Pro12 gate of the 4 Irish provinces is somewhere around 50k, then that's about 0.8% of the population of the island of Ireland.

The equivalent is about 0.25% of the population of England setting their bums upon AP rugby seats.

My conclusion is that either the Irish are about 3.2 times better at attracting rugby spectators, or it is about 3.2 times tougher for the English, or a bit of both. The sensible compromise is that the Irish are 1.6 times more attractive, while the English are 1.6 times tougher, or thereabouts.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:Assuming the average combined Pro12 gate of the 4 Irish provinces is somewhere around 50k, then that's about 0.8% of the population of the island of Ireland.

The equivalent is about 0.25% of the population of England setting their bums upon AP rugby seats.

My conclusion is that either the Irish are about 3.2 times better at attracting rugby spectators, or it is about 3.2 times tougher for the English, or a bit of both. The sensible compromise is that the Irish are 1.6 times more attractive, while the English are 1.6 times tougher, or thereabouts.

Blooming Irish pretty boys!

I'll go along with them readings...with 32.6% 'give-or-take' wiggle-room added for debating reasons

It's always curious how people debate which league is better off ad nausiam and then in the same thread also debate which league is worse off but switch sides.
No we're better but we have it harder.... no no we're better but we have it harder.... no no no we're better but we have it harder.... no no no no we're better but we have it harder.... no no no no no we're better but we have it harder.... no no no no no no we're better but we have it harder.... no no no no no no no we're better but we have it harder.... no

That's all very well saying that but you know in your heart of hearts, when all is said an done, at the end of the day, yeah, no, in all fairness, to be fair to the lad, ........... we're actually better but we have it harder; which is what you wanted to say in the first place.

Bathman_in_London wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:Assuming the average combined Pro12 gate of the 4 Irish provinces is somewhere around 50k, then that's about 0.8% of the population of the island of Ireland.

The equivalent is about 0.25% of the population of England setting their bums upon AP rugby seats.

My conclusion is that either the Irish are about 3.2 times better at attracting rugby spectators, or it is about 3.2 times tougher for the English, or a bit of both. The sensible compromise is that the Irish are 1.6 times more attractive, while the English are 1.6 times tougher, or thereabouts.

Blooming Irish pretty boys!

That'll be all the free Dove Men Care stuff they get.

I've tried reading all this but didn't really follow it at all. A few things I will say.

1) I once posted an article that included an equation to determine the 'best' league. The dominating factor in it was which league 'your' team played in. I got accused of being anti-PRO12

2) Sale don't represent everyone North of Leicester just because they're the only ones up there. They represent the North East Cheshire area around Sale and Stockport. Some people there are keen to become an effective North Western region but some fans are dead against the idea (are they always?). Just because Leeds go down and Newcastle go down doesn't mean their fans go "right, who's the closest premiership side? I'm supporting them". They go "Sod this rugby lark. It's crap". IF you want to look at English attendances as a fraction of the population you'd have to include the championship at least (so that's an extra 1232 per week)

I was using BeShocked logic there HammerofThunor I am well aware of what Sale actually are I look across the Irish sea unlike beshocked and btw I agree each league is its own identity and whoever you support or where you live will color your opinion so guys lets all be friends

So once again reach the conclusion that "rugby isnt very good, thats why noone turns up"

neilthom7 wrote:I was using BeShocked logic there HammerofThunor I am well aware of what Sale actually are I look across the Irish sea unlike beshocked and btw I agree each league is its own identity and whoever you support or where you live will color your opinion so guys lets all be friends

Looking across the Irish Sea? Do you means 'sail'. No no no, Sale is a village or town in Cheshire near Manchester.



I should stop trying to be funny but I always remember the old Scottish fella hiding behind a spider web thing.

Friends? Sod that. European Cup coming up (which as Fly knows, I don't really care about).

And regarding Beshocked, I'm not sure if he's doing a straight man, taking the urine, argument or serious but they kind of get all twisted up and make no sense. Don't they Beshocked? (I'm not providing any evidence to back that up, it's an internet FACT)

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:So once again reach the conclusion that "rugby isnt very good, thats why noone turns up"

Do you mean Noon? If so he's being taken away to 'France', which is the rugby equivalent of a nice farm he can run around and play in.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:So once again reach the conclusion that "rugby isnt very good, thats why noone turns up"

Do you mean Noon? If so he's being taken away to 'France', which is the rugby equivalent of a nice farm he can run around and play in.

No, the other one
http://www.espnscrum.com/premiership-2012-13/rugby/story/169986.html

The all Ireland Gaelic football final and hurling Final had attendances of 82'000. The largest stadiums in Ireland are Gaelic Athletic Association stadiums. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Gaelic_Athletic_Association_stadiums The GAA club in my home parish field 3 teams at senior level a u18/u21 side 3 U16s teams 4Under under 14 teams right down to 6 years old. They have 4 pitches weights rooms indoor training area and there next plan is an Astroturf area. They are not the exception far from it. Rugby has grown massively in Ireland however their are more registered GAA player in ulster than there are rugby players on the island of ireland

thebandwagonsociety true it sounds like that and that's the case but I do find it interesting to learn a bit more about Ireland. Evidently I am ignorant so it's nice to learn more from those more enlightened than myself. Hopefully in turn I can impart some knowledge too.

techphobe yes I know that the GAA and Hurling get large attendances in big games. This is equally true with the Irish rugby union sides though surely?

I am trying to challenge this belief that rugby union in Ireland is tiny and that it is being smothered by the behemoths of GAA and Hurling. On the contrary I think rugby union in Ireland is doing very well. The hordes of Irishman that descended upon Twickenham for the HC final and created a very good atmosphere in my opinion show them that Irish rugby is well supported. Some of those Irishman even came from Ireland believe it or not!

20,000 Leinstermen coming over to see Leinster play Saracens at Wembley only 2 years ago doesn't make me think that rugby union is a beleaguered minority sport only played by a small elite in Ireland.

Neilthom No - the bigger population argument is YOURS. You think because there are 55m people in England it automatically means all these clubs in England should get bigger support. Some should yes but others no.

The whole situation is very complicated.

Look at Yorkshire it has a population of over 4m. They have two championship clubs Rotherham and Leeds. Leeds rugby union not only have to compete with the very successful rugby league side Leeds Rhinos but also Leeds United football clubwho get crowds in excess of 20k.

Hammerofthunor true about Sale.

My own club I would agree should and could do far more.

Saracens due to having no geographical allegiances because of their name and extensive travels could potentially draw support from Hertfordshire,Bedfordshire,Essex,London and Buckinghamshire to name a few areas as well as possibly Belgium and SA. That's a huge potential support base. Maybe Belgium is a stretch but playing in Brussels and actually putting on a pretty decent show I am sure has won us some friends from there.


Most of the clubs in England are based around towns/cities. This reduces the chances of attracting outside support .e.g from other counties. It's to do with this identity thing. This whole identity thing is why the Welsh clubs/regions are in a spot of bother

The potential catchment area for Leicester and Saints is smaller because of this. Sure they'll get the occasional fan not from these towns but they'll have links with them.

In Ireland there are 4 provinces. You support your province in rugby union in Ireland - this means bigger catchment area. I understand your argument about the travelling distance being quite far but that's the beauty of TV.

beshocked wrote:thebandwagonsociety true it sounds like that and that's the case but I do find it interesting to learn a bit more about Ireland. Evidently I am ignorant so it's nice to learn more from those more enlightened than myself. Hopefully in turn I can impart some knowledge too.

techphobe yes I know that the GAA and Hurling get large attendances in big games. This is equally true with the Irish rugby union sides though surely?

I am trying to challenge this belief that rugby union in Ireland is tiny and that it is being smothered by the behemoths of GAA and Hurling. On the contrary I think rugby union in Ireland is doing very well. The hordes of Irishman that descended upon Twickenham for the HC final and created a very good atmosphere in my opinion show them that Irish rugby is well supported. Some of those Irishman even came from Ireland believe it or not!

20,000 Leinstermen coming over to see Leinster play Saracens at Wembley only 2 years ago doesn't make me think that rugby union is a beleaguered minority sport only played by a small elite in Ireland.

Neilthom No - the bigger population argument is YOURS. You think because there are 55m people in England it automatically means all these clubs in England should get bigger support. Some should yes but others no.

The whole situation is very complicated.

Look at Yorkshire it has a population of over 4m. They have two championship clubs Rotherham and Leeds. Leeds rugby union not only have to compete with the very successful rugby league side Leeds Rhinos but also Leeds United football clubwho get crowds in excess of 20k.

Hammerofthunor true about Sale.

My own club I would agree should and could do far more.

Saracens due to having no geographical allegiances because of their name and extensive travels could potentially draw support from Hertfordshire,Bedfordshire,Essex,London and Buckinghamshire to name a few areas as well as possibly Belgium and SA. That's a huge potential support base. Maybe Belgium is a stretch but playing in Brussels and actually putting on a pretty decent show I am sure has won us some friends from there.


Most of the clubs in England are based around towns/cities. This reduces the chances of attracting outside support .e.g from other counties. It's to do with this identity thing. This whole identity thing is why the Welsh clubs/regions are in a spot of bother

The potential catchment area for Leicester and Saints is smaller because of this. Sure they'll get the occasional fan not from these towns but they'll have links with them.

In Ireland there are 4 provinces. You support your province in rugby union in Ireland - this means bigger catchment area. I understand your argument about the travelling distance being quite far but that's the beauty of TV.

The bolded part is absolutely correct,Rugby is coming on in leaps and bounds.In my opinion over the next 20 years it will catch right up with soccer and G.A.A. however it's not there yet.

The Dublin G.A.A. recenty had a rant about about Leinster trying to highjack the colour blue as they feel that they should have exclusive rights to the colour This shows how much rugby has increased in popularity as the G.A.A. never used to worry about it as competition,soccer was the only sport they felt they had to worry about.

Good post beshocked. I wouldn't underestimate the behemoth that is GAA in Ireland.

What the GAA could be looked at is a community hub, every small village will have a GAA club, almost every kid in the village will play at the various underage groups, do the raffles/fund raising, support the senior team, it is a real tribal thing. I'd almost argue that with all the recent abuse scandals in the church in Ireland over the recent generations, the GAA club has replaced the local church as the most important thing in small communities. It is an amateur organisation that is run and managed in the most professional manner at club, county and national level.

Rugby is run extremely well at a Provincial and National level, some will argue how well and I'd have areas that I'd want them to change/improve but in the round, they ain't amateur hour. But below the provinces there is a problem, and that is at the club level. The provinces circumvent a lot of this by focusing on their academies. So Leinster (and I use them as it's the local province for me) target the rugby schools and as kids finish up there, they siphon the talent into the academy set up. They do also pluck people from the clubs, but not as much, or in as good or systematic way as I (and a lot of other people) would like. Also, if you were in the classic rugby schools, you are more likely to get into the academy (or get more airtime/opportunity).

On the travelling support, I think that is a party piece for Ireland really. We don't need much of an excuse to have a good time, GAA doesn't have internationals (I disregard the bi-annual compromise rules games with Ozzy Rules), the Irish soccer team hasn't been to many major competitions, so rugby is one of the few outlets where Irish can go supporting their country/province abroad. Just look at the soccer in Poland, we were a lucky team to make it there, we were going to get our arses handed to us in each pool game, and yet we probably had one of the strongest, most vocal supporters, singing away as we were well beaten in our games.

There are 2 GAA teams in Dublin which manage over 90 teams in all disciplines. Na Fianna and Ballyboden St Endas.

This makes both of them among the largest sports clubs of any kind in the world in terms of active, playing members.

Rugby Union in Ireland isn't 'tiny'. Nobody is saying it's 'tiny'.

The argument is that it has stiff competition, the argument is that it shares that position in relative and proportional terms with English rugby, which has stiff competition.

That's what has and is being said - not that rugby is 'tiny'. Nobody said that. I even said rugby is doing fine. It's growing but the growing will be gradual. It's here, it's healthy at Provncial level. It's growing and successes are clear to outsiders looking in. It's not 'tiny'.

Neither is English rugby 'tiny'. It has stiff competition and it is by no means England's number one sport. Neither is Irish rugby. That's the argument.

Beshocked you realise you use our attendance figures as a sign we aren't doing enough and then say I know the distance is an issue that's what tv for. Well you cant have both mate. Yes mate the law of averages does say the higher the population the more likely there are to be more supporters of a sport in that country if you take that interest levels are the same, I don't think you are saying that England has much less interest in rugby than Ireland so it's a valid argument. The Sale point I made was in relation to the provincial catchment area you presume just because it is called Munster or Ulster that it catches the whole province. It does not some bits are stronghold GAA area, some are too far away for example the North West of Donegal ain't going to travel like 3-5 hours for a match. Therefore I said about Sale I know Sale don't cover the whole of the North of England i'm just showing you some of your own points. You should know by the way if Ravenhill has about a 11,000 capacity there are currently 26 GAA stadiums in Ireland who have a higher capacity than that.

Dont forget rugby in England has to compete with the Rolling Stones concerts. They pack in 90,000 a week.

True, True. But rugby in Ireland has to compete with The Rose of Tralee... so it's quits again.