Stagnant 6 Nations

First topic message reminder :

Stuart Barnes:

"The sport has to find more nations emerging at a rate to galvanise the next World Cup. Argentina benefited from its introduction to the Championship, is it not time Georgia, Russia, Romania or whoever wins the FIRA championship had a shot at the Six Nations? At the very least a play- off against the bottom team to give them a chance to raise their game and standards. Scotland's record of two wins in their last 15 games is hardly the record that demands automatic inclusion at the top table. The old boys' brigade needs a good kick up the rear in the interests of the game at international level."

A playoff is a good idea, an incentive for smaller rugby nations to grow and more competition should drive up standards. Current 6 nations sides would be strong favourites to win any playoff game so they should have nothing to fear, the likes of Russia, Romania, Georgia would have to improve massively to compete at 6 nations level but if they do improve then surely they deserve the chance to compete at that higher level. The problem is the short term financial risk, particularly to unions with smaller budgets, but really to all the 6 nations sides that are currently guaranteed a place.

'The old boys brigade'. Unions well established in the IRB and other governing bodies of the game are unlikely to risk the position of their teams in the 6 nations. The powers that be should be able to realise that the long term benefits of developing the game internationally (outside of the established nations) outweigh the short term financial impact. Long term you could expect more quality players certainly and eventually even a more competitive world cup. The game as a whole would benefit financially from a wider audience, it is difficult to see any reason not to have a playoff game other than self preservation.

Not at all damage, the club game is wortheless and can largely be disregarded. If we scrapped the domestic leagues then we could restrict them to a 100 team Euro challenge trophy split into 18 groups played on alternate weekends ( on a podulised round robin basis) between the various test games with representatives voted in as part of the Eurovision contest. Vatican City Wasps vs Tel Aviv Blues is a fixture Im sure we are all looking forward to and would certainly generate interest.
Id look to make a 6th welsh region as part of this representing all the people in North Wales who own a Liverpool shirt.

SecretFly wrote:Yep..Zimbabwe would have closely lost to us back then in that bad old month or two of meltdown.

To be fair they have beaten NZ...

Vatican City Wasps vs Tel Aviv Blues

I'd watch that...

I detect a tone there Peter.

I think this discussion is fair in trying to bring through further nations in Rugby.
Most agree nothing should touch the 6n as of yet...as the current teams are too far ahead...but we need to still encourage others to catch up...and we are simply listing possibilities - this is a discusion site isnt it?

To me an obvious one is some form of cup...including Senior developing teams...or even U23 teams.

I also believe more teams will come through the lower European cups...club teams from Germany, etc etc competeing can only bring them...

SecretFly wrote:

profitius wrote:

Thats true but what if rugby in Germany, Netherlands, Spain, Russia or Belgium etc took off. Financially it would give the game a massive boost. Thats why we should be helping develop rugby in these countries more.

Georgia, Romania etc might not bring much money to the table but they do offer variety and they make the game more interesting having more competitive teams. Theres nothing worse than the same teams playing each other over and over again. Thats the biggest problem facing the international game. Wales and Australia played each other about 6 times in 14 months. Thats a bit over the top.

Profitius, what if it did? How long would we wait for it to be competitive with the 6N sides? At the moment those Nations are probably competitive with each other and therefore the competition between them is exciting and perhaps (I haven't seen any of them) even look good on TV. But it's like comparing schoolboy rugby to Provincial/club rugby... not in a demeaning way! But in saying competitveness will be just as keen amongst schools rugby as it is at Professional club level. The crowds will enjoy the schools stuff to the same degree in looking at the one on ones and the passion of the players to chase for tries. But they're still two very different products in terms of skill and physical ability.

So including a few more lesser European sides in an enlarged Nations Cup...how many of those games would be embarrassing slaughters? Yes, bit by bit they'd improve. Year by year we'd be all talking about how much some of them are improving. They'd get the odd win. But the intensity of 6N would be watered down significantly... it's already accused by many as being a glorified sludge-fest a lot of the time with only brief moments of true grandeur on display.

Recent results

Spain (Ranked 18) 47 - 14 Zimbabwe (R 30) Good result for Spain.
USA (R 16) 13 - 22 Tonga (R 11)
Tonga (R 16) 22 - 28 Italy (R 10)

Germany is ranked 29th, Netherlands 38th, Russia 20th, Georgia 17th, Belguim 23rd.

It would be a long time before they became real challengers on a consistent basis when you look at how long Italy languishes in and around bottom after 13 years of participation. I can actually now see real beginnings of Italy actually rising up a rung or two in consistent ability through the next decade...but before the tree bears fruit, some have already lost patience with them and want them replaced.

I wouldn't just throw them in, fly. I think a relegation promotion system is the way to go. It would create more interest in the 6 nations but more importantly offer a carrot to tier b teams. They would now have a big goal to aim for and that would interest sponsors and fans too.

The extra matches would be played in the Autumn.

Another idea would be to have the A teams play against second tier countries in the autumn with the winners entering the 6 nations. Have 6 groups of 3 or 4 and have it based on seedings so if a team finishes bottom of the 6 nations they'll be draw out against the top tier 2 team next season ie Italy and Georgia in the same group.

Or you could have a playoff where the bottom one or two 6 nations teams have to play off against the top tier 2 team(s) for a chance of competing in the next seasons 6 nations. That could be played in the summer. I just think its important to give other teams a chance to speed up their development.

Relegation/Promotion is terrible for long term investment.

CRUMBS...
The Quadrangular nations tournament just announced

http://www.espnscrum.com/southafrica/rugby/story/174220.html

South Africa have confirmed that they will play host to a quadrangular tournament next year featuring Scotland, Samoa and Italy.

Fitting into the regular IRB tours season (ie the NH summer tours)


I guess SA felt they needed to win some silverware for morale

If Biltong sees that red flag there'll be blood on these streets before nightfall.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:CRUMBS...
The Quadrangular nations tournament just announced

http://www.espnscrum.com/southafrica/rugby/story/174220.html

South Africa have confirmed that they will play host to a quadrangular tournament next year featuring Scotland, Samoa and Italy.

Fitting into the regular IRB tours season (ie the NH summer tours)


I guess SA felt they needed to win some silverware for morale

Makes sense. The Lions are in Australia, NZ has baggsied France. So Italy, a Scotland "A+" side (sans Lions) plus Samoa is about the best of what's left. And I guess Argentina will be looking for a visit from Lions-less England/Wales/Ireland, plus Tonga/USA/Canada

Can we please leave the 6 Nations alone?
It's the highlight of the Rugby sporting calendar for me - (no rival like a local rival).

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:CRUMBS...
The Quadrangular nations tournament just announced

http://www.espnscrum.com/southafrica/rugby/story/174220.html

South Africa have confirmed that they will play host to a quadrangular tournament next year featuring Scotland, Samoa and Italy.

Fitting into the regular IRB tours season (ie the NH summer tours)


I guess SA felt they needed to win some silverware for morale

Makes sense. The Lions are in Australia, NZ has baggsied France. So Italy, a Scotland "A+" side (sans Lions) plus Samoa is about the best of what's left. And I guess Argentina will be looking for a visit from Lions-less England/Wales/Ireland, plus Tonga/USA/Canada

Yeah its a great torunie for all really. SA will see it as more interesting for the fans than a tour by one team, plus they get the revenue for the additional games hosted. The other 3 are all a similar level and will see it as a great chance to get some tests at their level in plus a challenge against a top side.

I think England are playing Argentina (again, sensible time to do it), I think France are in NZ.

nobbled wrote:Can we please leave the 6 Nations alone?
It's the highlight of the Rugby sporting calendar for me - (no rival like a local rival).

Agreed. It is the greatest tournement in world rugby, why mess with that?

Let the other teams set up an eastern europe 6 nations if necessary.

They already play in the 6 nations B.

Let them eat cake then.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think we need to look at a European championship every two years or so HOWEVER less of the 1st teams and much more at Saxons and other A teams level.....
So Senior nations developing teams get decent games...and the minor nations get a good competition...but maybe not the cricket scores that could potentially come about...

Pool 1:
France "A", Georgia, Germany, Lithuania

Pool 2:
England Saxons, Romania, Ukraine, Switzerland

Pool 3:
Scotland 'A', Russia, Czech Republic, Malta

Pool 4:
Italy 'A', Belgium, , Sweden, Croatia

Pool 5:
Wales 'A', Spain, Poland, Netherlands

Pool 6:
Ireland Wolfhounds, Portugal, Moldova. Host Nation

I like this idea. Its pointless to play full internationals against the real minnows but to play development or youth teams?

I like to see NZ A play more games (some games) but we just can't seem to afford it.

nganboy wrote:I like to see NZ A play more games (some games) but we just can't seem to afford it.

If Iwi pay for the NZ Maori then both NZ 'A' & NZ Maori could play.