Why do Scotland bother with 7s?

Having been flicking between the HC and SA 7s over the weekend, I have to ask myself why we go to the expense of being part of the 7s circuit. Our record is truly abysmal - one win in each of the last two rounds - with Portugal and Spain regularly performing better than us.
I don't buy the "it lets us see the next generation of XV players" - apart from the Evans brothers, who has it showcased? And anyway, just because someone does well in 7s, it doesn't mean that theye will be any god at XV - look at Andrew Turnbull and Colin Gregor. Both stick-on certs to be playing at 7s but both are utterly guff on the XV aside pitch.
At the moment, all the circuit does is provide a bunch of guys with business class travel to some very nice destinations round the world, 3 games on Saturday, two on the Sunday and then the rest of the weekend is your own to do some shopping or practice the ridiculous forearm slapping which is used on the rare occassion that we actually score a try.
The Irish seem to develop players well enough without 7s - perhaps we should save the pennies to invest elsewhere in the game?
Lastly, I don't see the loss of Scotland from the circuit being a tear-jerker to the IRB. We had being the final event taken away from us, the crowds were so poor the event had to be moved to a smaller venue and I am sure that places like Russia, Spain etc would be good hosts.

IYA - As an Ireland fan I agree with you 100% about the lack of benefit of 7s to the XV game. Promising young players should be playing fifteen a side rugby, that's how they learn about the game and their team. It doesn't make any sense to get players to play a different game with a different team and think that will transfer - how many 100m sprinters can switch to the 400m relay seamlessly? The few that can, find they are behind their contemporaries in experience, so in effect the seven's circuit is delaying their progress to a full XV team.

While I would argue against Ireland having a Sevens team, Scotland were the founders of the game and since they have only two professional XV clubs with limited opportunities for young players, perhaps they should persevere with the format?
With the introduction of 7s into the Olympics, Scotland would be guaranteed at least one player in the GB squad in Rio, so can't see them pulling out anytime soon.

There is another way of looking at it. Why do Scotland bother with XVs? I don't mean that as a WUM. But sometimes I find it baffling that there is a lack of an integrated approach to the national squad among countries or nations. Why do we have clubs? Why do we have grassroots rugby? Why do we have representative school or youth teams?

Why? Because it's all a way of building towards the bigger picture: test rugby. Too often though we try to see things for what they represent in their own light rather than looking at them as individual pieces fitting together into one big national puzzle.

If you can't see the benefit of sevens to the XV version of the game then maybe you should think twice about lamenting about your national team's failure to grasp basic concepts such as inter-play (not just among the backs), creating space, running different lines, using the ball to outpace the defence rather than the man, straightening the attack, drifting in defence, analysing gaps in the team's defence, general fitness. Sevens isn't running around like headless chickens. Not at least the teams who understand the game.

Sevens greats like Lomu, Cullen, Osborne, Messam etc all found their notoriety in the sevens game. Hosea Gear got sent back to sevens to rediscover some form. Teams like Samoa and Tonga worked hard on their set piece but retained the freedom and power associated with sevens in their game.

Why bother with anything if the individual rugby components are not working towards your national game. It seems so basic to say but sometimes I wonder if this simple concept is truly understood.

You are bang on up to a point, Kia, but I don't totally agree that 7s is a link in the chain towards full caps (if that is what I think you mean). If you look at the skills set that you correctly say are required, how many of them do we show? Our performances in 7s have, quite frankly, been embarassing for a country that considers itself to be a Tier 2 nation.
A lot of the skills you mention should be intuitive to international players - god help us if the coach needs to tell players at that level that the ball is faster than the man etc.
It isn't just the performances that sticks in my craw. It is the lack of progress season after season.

Not saying 7s should be used as a chain towards a test cap. But I am saying it is part of the overall package that can work towards finding a player worthy of a test cap.

If all you have to offer is club rugby but most of your players are scattered far and wide within that club structure, then you'll struggle towards greater things. You have to build a wide domestic structure that encompasses the whole range of what rugby has to offer. Touch, sevens, youth age rugby etc.

You are right. Basic skills shouldn't have to be taught to international players. Unfortunately too many times they are all too conspicuous in their absence.

Saying you shouldn't bother with something because you're not successful is not what the issue is. Sitting down and analysing where you need to perform better is what should be happening. When you look at Scottish rugby across the board - not just sevens - there has to be a clear and honest analysis of what is working and what is not. If you look at that in every form of rugby, you might be surprised to see more than a few things in common. You can never grow if you only limit yourself to what you're good at. Sometimes the biggest progress is made when you identify things in which you need to improve. Look at Tonga and Samoa and the scalps they've scored. That's sitting down and accepting set piece rugby wins you test matches. Especially if you combine it with power and pace.

Scotland has a good pack to build on. In 15s and in 7s their awareness of space and doing things at pace and with accuracy is what is letting them down. You can wok on those things in sevens and 15s. Think of the individual components of rugby as laboratory fieldwork and your test team as the results and conclusions of that experimentation.

Again, I will agree with you up to a point, KKA, but (and this is rhetorical as you are a Kiwi and won't know the answer) who has 7s unearthed who is worthy of a test cap since the Evans brothers? - and that was a good (or bad) few years ago.
I am not really saying that we should forget 7s - just at international level. As you may appreciate, our financial as well as playing resources are scant and frittering these away for no positive return is a total waste
Having seen our backline recently, I think that the fieldwork you talk about was done in Dr Frankenstein's laboratory.

Unfortunately I'm not sure there is a route to the 15s from the Scotland 7s, I for one would love to see how James Fleming would fare in the 15s, it might be a good idea giving him a game for Scotland A.

It's true the process won't happen overnight. Australia is like a reverse Scotland as they have limited resources but probably unearth a lot greater talent with more ease. But putting all their rugby eggs into the 15 aside version or the Super XV is not answering their deep rooted problems. They need to grow the game.

The more you have in your rugby arsenal, the more appealing you become to a wider pool of potential players. The more talent you have at your disposal, the more your overall skill levels increase. At the moment your resources are limited so it's a difficult juggling act undoubtedly.

James Fleming does look quite nippy but he does seem to have defensive frailties although these are magnified more on the 7s pitch than they are when you have 14 and not only 6 other guys able to help.
My concern with him is that he may be another Andrew Turnbull i.e. where we hope that he scores enough tries to counteract the ones that he may have been at least partly responsible for conceding
Kia, the Aussies uncover more talent than us mainly because of the difference in life styles. In Oz, it is encouraged/expected that kids will be outside playing one sport or another. We were at Manly beach when a bunch of kids turned up for a PE lesson in surfing!!! Up here, the weather is so bad in winter that you can't be surprised when kids turn away from outdoor activities.
It was ex Jock-bok John Allen who said that he couldn't see any way that adults could learn new or develop existing skills standing in mud up above their ankles, freezing to death with their knackers hiding inside their pelvis because it was so cold on a frosty Tuesday night in january.

[quote="InjuredYetAgain"]James Fleming does look quite nippy but he does seem to have defensive frailties although these are magnified more on the 7s pitch than they are when you have 14 and not only 6 other guys able to help.
My concern with him is that he may be another Andrew Turnbull i.e. where we hope that he scores enough tries to counteract the ones that he may have been at least partly responsible for conceding

That's exactly why we should be trying him and others in the Scotland A team, to find out if he can be an asset at 15s. I've long felt that one of our biggest failings has been a lack of real pace in the backs. Remember some of the most potent attackers in world rugby (eg Bowe and potentially Visser) aren't exactly the best defenders.

I wouldn't argue that we should see how he gets on with the A team but, and this brings us nicley back to the point of my original post, did we really need to send him 4 times round the world to play 7s to find this out? He had a reputation when he played for Dundee HSFP for being extremely quick

Well the weather in Scotland can be a problem but that is probably true of most of the 6N teams to varying degrees and regions. But then all the more reason then for some players to experience solid footing and the game played at pace so they can pass that knowledge on to others. When you play the sevens circuit you get to play a wide range of teams as well as conditions. Some players don't get that opportunity if they stand in the mud.

If he wasn't playing 7s would he be getting a game for either of the club teams? This is the problem at present, some pretty promising players not getting any real game time, the scrumhalf Kennedy at Glasgow is a case in point, he looks pretty good when he's all too rarely played (certainly looks more varied in his play than Pyrgos). The 7s are not getting good results but at least these guys are getting some actual game time instead of being fulltime trainers like some in the pro teams. Of course some players aren't suited to 7s such as Nick Kennedy the Glasgow lock who also looks really promising but is going to waste not playing, not sure what the solution for these guys is?

This might be stupid but if the SRU were to set up a school sevens league in the summer it would allow more teams to play, improve handling and also the summer aspect would mean that there will be less put off by the prospect of standing on the wing on a freezing day in December with rain in your face. It wouldn't clash with football and the players who enjoy it and show promise could be encouraged to join clubs. This would help improve the full team, the sevens team and player numbers.

Scotland usually do well in the Edinburgh/Glasgow tournament. If the SRU could invest into the Sevens team and contract some players then they might improve. The WRU contracted players to the Sevens and it's helped us improve although we still don't have enough full time sevens players to be consistent. By all means scrap it though so that Cardiff can take your hosted tournament.

It's interesting that the year we've gone fully pro is also the year we've been totally guff!

I'm also quite skeptical about the development aspect - let's look at the squad and who is actually being 'developed':

James Johnstone, Michael Fedo, Colin Gregor, Mark Robertson, Andrew Turnbull, Scott Riddell, Michael Maltman.
Darren Gillespie, Colin Shaw, James Fleming (all 12mins), John Houston and Russell Weir (not used).

Of the 12, 6 are either has been pro club players or players that are classed no more than squad players.

Of the other 6, I'd be surprised if any of them make the step up to pro 15s, and I'd pretty much bet my house that none will play for Scotland.

So we're using all this money to pay for has been pros and young guys that will never make the step up?

All the best young guys (Hogg, Weir, Scott etc) get into the pro teams - the rest get dumped into the 7s.

For me the money would be much better spent in a full time academy team in the Rabbo, or the B&I cup.

Did James Eddie not get a contract with the 7 s team for a season ? he came back even worse a player if anything !

We've had a few players wasted with sevens. I understand that Scotland invented the code and the Melrose Sevens is obviously still a big thing. However, we'd have more depth in our pro teams and probably less money wasted if we didn't bother with sevens.

I think it's a bit of a shame that the likes of Gregor, Horne and Shaw have been thrown in to the sevens when they could have become staples of the Glasgow team and been capped by now if they were left to develop as XVs players. If people are arguing that players gain experience and skills on sevens tours, it hasn't as yet translated back into our XVs game. Plus, at late teens/early 20s, you'd hope that a professional rugby player at least has the requisite skills if not yet the experience to play in the Rabo.

Well maybe 7s is just enjoyable and should be played on that basis alone.

The reality is that while some players for NZ have entered the ABs via the 7s most do not make that step up. The 7s in NZ is mostly players that can't get super 15 contracts so they are semi professionals only.

No one is suggesting that Lomu and Cullen would not have made the ABs if they hadn't had the 7s route. Kia to mention Osborne in the same sentence as Cullen is an obscenity wash your mouth!

I would add Roddy Grant and Lee Jones to 'finds' from the Scottish 7s team.

However, the issue now sadly is whether the 7s team is worth the money that is invested in it when it is badly needed elsewhere. It is an amusing distraction and we turn up the occasional good result (beating Fiji last week, for instance) but I don't think that the average rugby fan would care if the 7s team was folded if it meant an incremental improvement for the working life of the pro teams or Scottish national squads.

This takes us back to the same old problems of there not being enough pro clubs to take on the younger guys. I think on balance I would rather that someone like Fleming was tested with Gala in British & Irish Cup matches against good club opposition than trotted around the world for a jolly.

nganboy wrote:Well maybe 7s is just enjoyable and should be played on that basis alone.

Agree with this.

Sevens can stand as a sport in it's own right, especially with the impending Olympic exposure. It is a great way for emerging rugby nations to embrace a game using the oval ball as it is a far simpler game than both XVs Union and Rugby League.

OTOH for those nations like Ireland and Scotland that already play the XV game and have limited resources, maybe it is a sport best left to the emerging and the resource rich nations?

I'm wondering whether the Scottish government (aka the bawbags) have something to do with it as well - they want Scotland to have a decent 7s team for the Commonwealth games?

Nganboy, Osborne was obviously not as good as Cullen but was still a very useful footy player. How about that sentence?

I see the point that at the elite level you would rather spend Scotland's limited resources on emerging 15s players or improving the coaching. I still think the more a nation has to offer in terms of rugby in whatever form, the wider you can cast out your net. I think it was a good idea proposed by somebody to move sevens or a touch rugby scene to the summer season so they don't have to clash with 15s. If people played sevens in summer then maybe more would give 15s a go in winter.

We kind of do play 7s in the summer in Scotland, or at least at the end of the XVs season in April/May time.

7s used to be huge in Scotland with numerous clubs holding big tournaments that attracted large crowds. The 15s season would end in April time and all the focus would move on to 7s.

Sadly it is slowly dying a death with a lot of clubs no longer holding 7s tournaments, and the main ones (apart from Melrose) struggling for crowds.

I meant more at grassroots level than at the elite end. The more people involved in your sport, the more opportunities to attract talent. NZ has a big touch rugby scene. Offices get involved and men's and women's or mixed teams regularly play in the evenings. Of course, very few of those would ever make it to any elite level. The same with sevens. Normally talent is spotted through the representative teams. But the more people seen to be playing rugby in some way, the more exposure the sports gets as a whole and the more likely you are to have the right people giving the sport a crack. If you do away with sevens and trim the number of clubs, you push rugby further out to the margins and lose key support. It seems more needs to be done at the youth and grassroot levels in Scotland.

It as often been said that Wales can't afford a 7's and an A Side, for me I would much rather see an A Side than a 7's

That's what I was talking about - amature rugby level!

The only pro 7s in Scotland is our pro 7s team on the main circuit.

Well financial problems with clubs is sadly not a problem unique to Scotland. It's the same around the world. I think all countries could do with a proper analysis of what money is being spent and what they get in return.

My position on this is largely driven by the heart ruling the head. I love 7's and think it's an excellent development tool for young players. The top rugby teams (SA, Aus and NZ) use it to great effect and it encourages attacking rugby and focuses on the core skills of passing, stepping a man and one-on-one tackling.

However, two questions are perfectly valid (and linked):

1. Does it provide value for money to a cash-strapped SRU?

2. Are we using it as a development resource to full effect?

I think the answer to both is no. Hopefully by addressing 2, and using it more as a development tool for our younger players rather than a resting place for middle-aged pros who never quite made it, we can address 1.

I dearly want us to keep 7's, we have such a proud history in the game, but I do think more needs to be done to justify it as a resource, but I think more can be done.

only read the first couple of posts. it seems people expect the 7s to be used as a development for players who move on the 15-a-side game.

not, as a means to itself.

With 7s now being an Olympic sport I would like to see individual home nations competing on the 7s circuit with their best players for 2 years.
Then the 2 years before the Olympics the run up should be about GB creating a team and playing 12 games or so a year or two tourneys worth outside of the 7s circuit.

The 7s circuit for those two years be used to develop new players for the home nations.

obviously this could be complete rubbish if the World Series doesn't allow time for extra tests vs the GB in the run up to the Olympics.

RDW_Scotland wrote:We kind of do play 7s in the summer in Scotland, or at least at the end of the XVs season in April/May time.

7s used to be huge in Scotland with numerous clubs holding big tournaments that attracted large crowds. The 15s season would end in April time and all the focus would move on to 7s.

Sadly it is slowly dying a death with a lot of clubs no longer holding 7s tournaments, and the main ones (apart from Melrose) struggling for crowds.

Shame Scotland can't replicate the success of the Bournemouth 7s event to keep interest going

Sorry, Damage, you are right to say that 7s is a means to itself but you have missed one of the points of my OP. We all acknowledge that we are mince at the game but what I and all other Scottish posters are saying, is why are we wasting scarce money when we are totally humpty? Surely, this money woudl be better routed into the academies, paying redundancy money to coaches who get hacked off because the players he looks after can't even catch a ball etc

ah, yes, maybe in the future this could be part of a overall Scottish plan, but you are right to say that the SRU urgently needs to re-focus.

The only caveat I can add to that is what are the figures for 7s and touch rugby introducing new players to the game in Scotland.