If English clubs withdrew from Europe, what should they do?

Talk is of an expanded Jeff. But I see no reason for that as it would free up the time for a properly structured season and return to a league in which the seasonal winner can be proclaimed champions. Attendances would not be seriously affected anyway.

A full International programme could be accommodated without encumbrance to stately progress of the League.

A big-money top four playoffs series with a final at HQ or wherever could be held as an end of season party. Or a game against SXV winners.

And should the English be invited back into Europe and English clubs were to accept, they wouldn't have to suddenly slash their league back to twelve clubs to return to the present status quo.

The English clubs could all play in each other in different stadia scattered around Europe. That way, an English club is likely to progress to the latter stages.

Bring back the Tetley Bitter Cup competition.
Thats a worst case scenario though.

Never going to happen.

Not sure I care any more. I just know i am sick and tired of twits having a go at us when without the cash we bring to the table they would be bankrupt. Thing is every single damn organisation involved in the discussions cares nothing about any one else. They are all a bunch of selfish twerps from English to french, Irish to welsh. the whole lot should just bugger off.

So no rugby, period - anywhere - is your solution, Tiger? Hmmm, original point and well made.

What would they do? sulk for a while then ask if they can be let in now - in the usual English fashion

Can the English clubs survive without the H cup money?

If so do you think that leaving it is an option that they're seriously considering?

London Tiger, the French don't just care about themselves. They made the point months ago now that they would not break off to form a new competition with the English and South Africans but instead wanted to be part of a European competition. If they had agreed to break away they could have set up a new competition on whatever terms they wanted which I'm sure would be easier than this belaboured series of meetings and debates. Also the IRFU could be confident of getting its teams in the h cup through being in the top 6 in the rabo but so far at least have not accepted this proposed change in format. Although it would be no skin off their nose it would damage Scottish, Italian and possibly Welsh rugby. But the IRFU seem to be sticking by these countries for their sake. There is hope for us yet.

TJ wrote:What would they do? sulk for a while then ask if they can be let in now - in the usual English fashion

Well, at least the scots clubs act as point dispensers i suppose. Need at least one of them.

Intotouch English clubs don't rely on Heineken Cup money anyway. When you don't have HC rugby handed to you on a platter you cannot afford to rely on it.

The Scottish,Italians and to a smaller extent the Welsh rely on the HC. Arguably too much. The Irish clubs don't rely on the HC not even Connacht who have spent a long time in the Amlin.

Yes I believe leaving is a serious option.

I doubt the IRFU would be confident of getting all of their teams into the HC through the top 6.

As to what English clubs should do instead. I am not sure.

I kind of wish they would break away then maybe they would realise they aren't all they are cracked up to be. Then when they wanted to come back they would have to realise they aren't the be all and end all of a competition which no English team has won in 6 seasons. I am not saying the English don't have their advantages however their Club owners need to realise that they are not the only league in the competition. They have to realise that matches like Clermont v Leinster are draws regardless if they are there or not. It's the pure arrogance of money hungry owners I object to not the supporters they are in general lovely people.

AlastairW wrote:

TJ wrote:What would they do? sulk for a while then ask if they can be let in now - in the usual English fashion

Well, at least the scots clubs act as point dispensers i suppose. Need at least one of them.

There you go, an honest English answer..and a logical one too. Which is something you don't see a lot of when these debates become righteous and the 'good of the sport in Europe' gets trailed out as the supposed reasons behind change.

There is no way any of the French or English clubs are complaining about Scottish and/or Italian clubs in their pools. The French or English team don't complain, the fans don't complain and the owners certainly don't complain. They like the idea of less stress and better chances of making the grade. But nope, we're told by PRL chiefs that having Scottish and Italian sides in the pools pains them, devalues the competition and, shock of shocks, somehow makes life tougher for English and French clubs to make it through.................. hmmmm. There is logic there somewheres, I guess..............

neilthom7 you forget it's 3 Irish clubs propping up the Pro12 in Europe.

The Scottish,Welsh and Italians have really struggled vs the English sides. Have they even picked up one win between them?

Only the Irish have given the Pro12 any respectability this season in the HC.

The biggest draws after Clermont vs Leinster were probably Munster vs Saracens and Saints vs Ulster.

SecretFly wrote:

AlastairW wrote:

TJ wrote:What would they do? sulk for a while then ask if they can be let in now - in the usual English fashion

Well, at least the scots clubs act as point dispensers i suppose. Need at least one of them.

There you go, an honest English answer..and a logical one too. Which is something you don't see a lot of when these debates become righteous and the 'good of the sport in Europe' gets trailed out as the supposed reasons behind change.

There is no way any of the French or English clubs are complaining about Scottish and/or Italian clubs in their pools. The French or English team don't complain, the fans don't complain and the owners certainly don't complain. They like the idea of less stress and better chances of making the grade. But nope, we're told by PRL chiefs that having Scottish and Italian sides in the pools pains them, devalues the competition and, shock of shocks, somehow makes life tougher for English and French clubs to make it through.................. hmmmm. There is logic there somewheres, I guess..............

It's the imbalance that I have a problem with - look at pool 3. No surprise Quins are cruising.

The luck of the draw, beshocked; as happens in virtually all competitions that use pools. There is always stronger ones (the famous alleged groups of Death) and the weaker ones (the alleged sleep-walking ones). You can't avoid the disparity of effort in any given pool.

As you say, Quins are cruising. Leinster aren't. Both Clermont and Leinster could be forgiven for thinking their 'pool' was plotted by the organisers from last year! It almost seems too (money bucks) coincidental that the considered two strongest sides from last year happen to pop up this year in a mid pool double hitter.

And yet, I'm a Leinster fan and I say, so be it. Ulster is having an easier ride. So be it. Gotta do your best and then anything can happen.

This debate is not about European club competition (there is a myriad of threads on that issue) , but about what the English clubs should do if they withdraw/get ejected.

Intotouch wrote:Can the English clubs survive without the H cup money?

If so do you think that leaving it is an option that they're seriously considering?

London Tiger, the French don't just care about themselves. They made the point months ago now that they would not break off to form a new competition with the English and South Africans but instead wanted to be part of a European competition. If they had agreed to break away they could have set up a new competition on whatever terms they wanted which I'm sure would be easier than this belaboured series of meetings and debates. Also the IRFU could be confident of getting its teams in the h cup through being in the top 6 in the rabo but so far at least have not accepted this proposed change in format. Although it would be no skin off their nose it would damage Scottish, Italian and possibly Welsh rugby. But the IRFU seem to be sticking by these countries for their sake. There is hope for us yet.

They (the French) actually said they wouldn't consider it yet. They said they didn't agree with looking at alternative before trying to renogotiate the current set-up. They also said it needs to be sorted by Christmas. The indication was if it wasn't sorted by Christams they would start to look at alternatives.

Next year the nogationation may well start to get more serious but still we've not really advanced in knowledge about whats going on.

Regarding what we do if the English leave/kicked out of Europe. Set up a comeptiton with the Dutch and call it the European Premier Cup Maybe include Russians and Georgians with a caveat that if they start winning they lose representation.

Secret Fly, luck of draw indeed. You couldn't even make it 'fair' by deliberately setting each pool by picking out each team individually. The form of teams at the draw isn't the same as the form of teams during the competition (the form of teams at the start often isn't the form at the end).

Grey.............. you talk about what you want to talk about...and some of us will digress from time to time - as natural discussions by free thinking, living and breathing humanbeings tend to do.

Jesus, some of you guys wouldn't look out of place in Totalitarian Europe of the 30s. No wonder 606V2 is losing posters by the day as the thought police gain a bigger a bigger foothold.

Ease up, it's Christmas.

True secretfly. There is imbalances but if possible you want to see pools as even and competitive. Also a problem is that these imbalances are not helped by the ERC rankings.


My bone of contention is always: - has team X earnt their HC place.

I want to see at least one representative from each union. I just personally feel some sides would be better suited to the Amlin.

I don't want English clubs to leave the HC. I want a compromise to be reached. I don't know why this is so hard to do.

I prefer it's called 'Holidays' thank you very much

What will happen? Well if it's just the English then it'll probably be an English Cup. Possibly with the championship sides. Might try and set up something with the Georgians and the Russians (and anyone else with the professional structure).

If it's the English and the French I can definitely see them bringing the Russians and Georgians (or at least trying to). Maybe included both their second division teams as well. South Africans aren't coming to any European party (except on the autumn tours)

SecretFly wrote:

AlastairW wrote:

TJ wrote:What would they do? sulk for a while then ask if they can be let in now - in the usual English fashion

Well, at least the scots clubs act as point dispensers i suppose. Need at least one of them.

There you go, an honest English answer..and a logical one too. Which is something you don't see a lot of when these debates become righteous and the 'good of the sport in Europe' gets trailed out as the supposed reasons behind change.

So it's alright for a scot to have a pop at the english off the cuff, but if the nasty englishman replies he's what? showing his true colours eh? One rule for one, but another for the dreaded scourge englishman!

Well, there you go, an honest Irish answer .. and an illogical one too.

AlastairW wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

AlastairW wrote:

TJ wrote:What would they do? sulk for a while then ask if they can be let in now - in the usual English fashion

Well, at least the scots clubs act as point dispensers i suppose. Need at least one of them.

There you go, an honest English answer..and a logical one too. Which is something you don't see a lot of when these debates become righteous and the 'good of the sport in Europe' gets trailed out as the supposed reasons behind change.

So it's alright for a scot to have a pop at the english off the cuff, but if the nasty englishman replies he's what? showing his true colours eh? One rule for one, but another for the dreaded scourge englishman!

Well, there you go, and honest Irish answer .. and an illogical one too.

I'm beginning to think it's Hallowe'en that's approaching and not Christmas at all with all the fangs showing!!! So what's up with you, Alastair?

You're English? I assumed you were. Forgive me if it isn't true. But on thinking you an Englishman, I said you were right about your last point regarding the Scottish sides being points dispensers (to the considered better sides in their pools). I said - you - were - right - and honest - and logical in your reading of that one. I wasn't being facetious, I wasn't having a laugh at your expense, I was saying you were correct on that one, in my humble and non-infallible opinion.

And yet, I get a brick thrown back at me by an offended Englishman? (don't know what you are now!)...................... We all seem to speak English on these islands but still manage to so often struggle to communicate with each other.

Apart from at the International level which could benefit, to be honest I can't see that it'd really make a great deal of financial difference to the clubs.

In the end the whole issue will be dependent on which way the French chose to place their ERC bets though.

English options

1) English Cup involving Championship teams (maybe Welsh regions as well and scrap LV=cup[but if there is a fall out in Europe don't know if regions would join])

2) Anglo-French cup

3) Anglo-French cup with other non 6 nation teams, on French and English terms (if PRO 12 had cup and was reaching out to them, think they would be more inclinded to join Pro 12 cup as terms would be better).

4) Expand Prem

Pro 12 Unions options

1) Pro 12 cup (maybe reaching out to other European teams)

2) Pro 12 cup (maybe we can court the SA's as well?)

3) Expand Pro 12 (Welsh and Italian)

4) Expand Pro 12 by inviting USA rugby to form 2 teams to join.

French options

1) Anglo-French cup, maybe with SA's

2) expand Top 14 (and forget Europe)

Eh chaps - calm down - I was being facetious ( with a little truth behind it) and Alistairs reposte was in the same tone and taken as such.

SecretFly wrote:

AlastairW wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

AlastairW wrote:

TJ wrote:What would they do? sulk for a while then ask if they can be let in now - in the usual English fashion

Well, at least the scots clubs act as point dispensers i suppose. Need at least one of them.

There you go, an honest English answer..and a logical one too. Which is something you don't see a lot of when these debates become righteous and the 'good of the sport in Europe' gets trailed out as the supposed reasons behind change.

So it's alright for a scot to have a pop at the english off the cuff, but if the nasty englishman replies he's what? showing his true colours eh? One rule for one, but another for the dreaded scourge englishman!

Well, there you go, and honest Irish answer .. and an illogical one too.

Made a good reply ...

Ok, fair do's, but can you honestly blame some of the English for being overly tetchy on this subject with the amount of bricks they have thrown at them? More to the point we have bricks thrown at us over this subject and it's all blydi speculation!? Yet the English always come off as the panto villian. It gets old pretty quick.

I thought you were being facetious, apologies. But slinging mud at TJ, who goes out of his way to blame us English for pretty much everything that ever went wrong in the history of forever (nothing like it to remove responsibility!), was well deserved. [edit:] Just rea your reply TJ. I will carry on sling it right back

You might want to reasses your judgement on 'an honest English answer', because that was about as far from honest i get but i'm honoured that you think i represent all English. I'm sure other english posters might take exception to that though.

Kingshu wrote:English options

1) English Cup involving Championship teams (maybe Welsh regions as well and scrap LV=cup[but if there is a fall out in Europe don't know if regions would join])

2) Anglo-French cup

3) Anglo-French cup with other non 6 nation teams, on French and English terms (if PRO 12 had cup and was reaching out to them, think they would be more inclinded to join Pro 12 cup as terms would be better).

4) Expand Prem

Pro 12 Unions options

1) Pro 12 cup (maybe reaching out to other European teams)

2) Pro 12 cup (maybe we can court the SA's as well?)

3) Expand Pro 12 (Welsh and Italian)

4) Expand Pro 12 by inviting USA rugby to form 2 teams to join.

French options

1) Anglo-French cup, maybe with SA's

2) expand Top 14 (and forget Europe)

Other options open involve the other European countries. E.g. Belgium,Russia, Georgia,Romania,Germany. The English clubs could come up with a rival european competition involving some of these countries.

Other option: reach out to the Galaxy at large and instigate a truly cosmic Rugby competition, ushering in a new age of intergalactic cooperation and friendship.

Seems about as likely as some of the options suggested.

Effervescing Elephant wrote:Other option: reach out to the Galaxy at large and instigate a truly cosmic Rugby competition, ushering in a new age of intergalactic cooperation and friendship.

Seems about as likely as some of the options suggested.

When Rotherham were called Earth Titans, I applauded their ambition in widening their target audience, but I did wonder who they considered their ultimate opponents to be.

Ah all these people saying English could reach out to other nations, really? I mean some have claimed the reason they would like less pro 12 clubs is because of the competition being so poor. Well what exactly would the Romanian, Georgian clubs etc be? Can't we just all agree that its money motivated either by earning more by having less teams to deal with or by getting their own sponsorship and move on.

Wait until 2016 and set up a program with SA and FRA.

SR contracts last until 2015. SA wants 6 SR teams.... AUS & NZ say no way.

It benefits all 3 nations. SA would reduce the massive toll it takes on both their finances and player fatigue due to the travelling they undertake.

They would still face similar level competitions if ENG and FRA ageed to Franchise and the market for all 3 would be endless.
SA companies would love to sponsor their clubs into European markets..... marketing to NZ & AUS gives them a market of 35MM... marketing to ENG and FRA gives them 130MM people.

The time zones are within 2hrs of each other.... meaning prime time viewing in all 3 countries whenever a game is played.... unlike SR where SA will view away games at 10am (not exactly ideal for a marketer of the sport) and vice versa.

SA players would also benefit as they could move to FRA & ENG without fear of losing their bok place... and the boks could easily retain the services of guys offered big money to move abroad. The player drain would be lessened also as SA clubs would get significantly richer and be able to retain the services of their top players... putting them on an even keel with the big cheeses of world rugby.

Let NZ & AUS venture into the Asian Pacific market, themselves marketing to SA is probably not worth much.... they will want to open up the lucrative Japanese market.

fa0019 wrote:Wait until 2016 and set up a program with SA and FRA.

SR contracts last until 2015. SA wants 6 SR teams.... AUS & NZ say no way.

It benefits all 3 nations. SA would reduce the massive toll it takes on both their finances and player fatigue due to the travelling they undertake.

They would still face similar level competitions if ENG and FRA ageed to Franchise and the market for all 3 would be endless.
SA companies would love to sponsor their clubs into European markets..... marketing to NZ & AUS gives them a market of 35MM... marketing to ENG and FRA gives them 130MM people.

The time zones are within 2hrs of each other.... meaning prime time viewing in all 3 countries whenever a game is played.... unlike SR where SA will view away games at 10am (not exactly ideal for a marketer of the sport) and vice versa.

SA players would also benefit as they could move to FRA & ENG without fear of losing their bok place... and the boks could easily retain the services of guys offered big money to move abroad. The player drain would be lessened also as SA clubs would get significantly richer and be able to retain the services of their top players... putting them on an even keel with the big cheeses of world rugby.

Let NZ & AUS venture into the Asian Pacific market, themselves marketing to SA is probably not worth much.... they will want to open up the lucrative Japanese market.

SOLD! Sounds perfect, tell us where to sign!

neilthom7 wrote:Ah all these people saying English could reach out to other nations, really? I mean some have claimed the reason they would like less pro 12 clubs is because of the competition being so poor. Well what exactly would the Romanian, Georgian clubs etc be? Can't we just all agree that its money motivated either by earning more by having less teams to deal with or by getting their own sponsorship and move on.

It's all about balance.

There is no doubt the European competition structure needs an overhaul. This needs to include all of Europe because the future of the likes of rugby in Romania,Germany and Belgium etc is in the balance too.

The problem with the likes of Italy and Scotland is currently they are overly reliant on the HC. Complacency has kicked in because of this.They need to be weaned off this. Have the Scottish clubs really improved since their participation in the HC? No - they are still weak. Competing in the Amlin would give them more confidence as they would win more matches. It would make things easier for them. Same with Zebre.

A stronger Amlin would also help revitalise the competition too. Currently there's not enough variety - the French and English clubs completely dominate. Throwing at least 1 Scottish and Italian in would mix things up a bit.

Trevisio nearly beat Leicester in Welford Road at the weekend lets see when they get to Italy this weekend. So what your saying is your problem is with Scotish and Italian Club yet you still want 4 clubs from Wales and Ireland to lose out? Admit it mate the English clubs care nothing about balance, I'm sure you do don't get me wrong i'm sure you do but the English clubs do not and they are not doing this for balance.
Also South Africa have made it very clear they have no want to join any European thing that is a dream guys.

I have no idea how many more years of zero or 1 English clubs in the QFs to make it clear that more English clubs is not the answer.

The dross served up by English clubs (bar Quins) at the weekend is testament to this.

What is it with the English? They are always looking to leave something.. why not stick around and just up your own game?

BoyneRFC wrote:I have no idea how many more years of zero or 1 English clubs in the QFs to make it clear that more English clubs is not the answer.

The dross served up by English clubs (bar Quins) at the weekend is testament to this.

What is it with the English? They are always looking to leave something.. why not stick around and just up your own game?

This has to be a WUM, or is he just so bitter due to the mother of all shoulder chips?

neilthom7 you say they nearly won yet they didn't and neither did they earn a losing bonus point. Leicester got 5 points, Treviso got 0. Harsh but true.

4 Welsh and Irish clubs to miss out?

My ideal situation would be 8 Pro12 sides in the HC, 6 Top 14, 6 AP. At least one representative from each union.

This would mean Connacht,Edinburgh,Zebre and Dragons in the Amlin.

You are correct - most English clubs don't care about balance. They have their own interests at heart just as the Irish,Italians,Scottish,Welsh and French too. None of them are innocent. All clubs are just as greedy - wanting as much cake as they can.

Do any of the unions think of the bigger picture? No.

Bigger cake means more to share. Yet the only discussion is how big each slice of the cake everyone gets. Not about how to make the cake itself bigger and share with others.

I want to see at least one representative from each union

Now I'm not picking on you Beshocked, but you were the latest one to mention 'the Unions'

Which Unions are we talking about here?

If we are we talking about the 'good of European Rugby' (which I hear a lot of from certain quarters) and developing rugby as a whole, surely the top European competition should involve top European sides and not just a few select teams from the 6 richer Unions.

If you then say that the inclusion of the likes of Georgia, Russia etc etc are going to drag down the quality and devalue the competition, then you are bringing in a different argument, you are them talking about who should be there on merit - and the current HC set up is NOT about merit, it’s about invitation - and when a 6 nations Union cry's out that that they should be included because they can’t afford NOT to be involved - how does this help the development of rugby in Europe?

How do the non 6 nations Unions feel about this I wonder - not allowed to dine at the top table because a richer Union demands inclusion as they would feel the financial pinch if they didn't get garmented HC rugby every year?

If you want to have a variety of Unions in the HC it should be open to ALL European unions, or if you want a merit based competition, it should not be x number of clubs from these Unions, but the best clubs involved.

Now how you get this to work in the current situation of the ERC - which is a collection of vested interests of the 6 rich Unions, I have no idea, but let’s not have any misunderstanding here, the current set up is heavily slanted against developing rugby in Europe, there is no breakthrough route for any of the non 6 nations clubs. So the England (and French) position may be driven by greed - but then so is the entrenched position of the others - they don't want to lose their place at the table, whether they deserve it or not


To answer the OP - if England withdraw from the ERC (they cannot be 'thrown out') I would prefer the clubs to concentrate on the League and upcoming internationals.

I for one, would not miss the HC.

I for one, would not miss the HC. .

In the interests of integrity I would like to point out that I don't have Sky and watch my rugby at Kingston Park - - so I don't miss it as I never watch it.

Perhaps some other supporters could learn to live with an HC free diet - especially if the Amlin comes to mean something.

Trailape in this case I meant 6 nations.

I want to see a mix of meritocracy and adopting new countries in European competitions. Ultimately you have to crawl before you walk.

I don't think it would be good to throw a side like Bucaresti into the HC.

TrailApe wrote:

I for one, would not miss the HC. .

In the interests of integrity I would like to point out that I don't have Sky and watch my rugby at Kingston Park - - so I don't miss it as I never watch it.

Perhaps some other supporters could learn to live with an HC free diet - especially if the Amlin comes to mean something.

I'd certainly miss it. I'm usually down my club ground on HC match day, normally a sell out occasion, and good to meet the travelling contingent.

Think about the impact to international test Rugby it would have as well. The HC is essentially (meant) to be the step between domestic club rugby and 6N international Rugby, it would be deterimental to the England squad members if they didn't face other top flight European clubs at the very least.

TrailApe wrote:

I for one, would not miss the HC. .

In the interests of integrity I would like to point out that I don't have Sky and watch my rugby at Kingston Park - - so I don't miss it as I never watch it.

Perhaps some other supporters could learn to live with an HC free diet - especially if the Amlin comes to mean something.

Unfortunately that's the one I wouldn't miss as that's the one I don't watch. If not watching decides what is and isn't important then for the life of me, I can't work out why the Amlin should be offered as cake to the peasants who already have the HEC as bread.

AlastairW wrote:
I'd certainly miss it. I'm usually down my club ground on HC match day, normally a sell out occasion, and good to meet the travelling contingent.

Think about the impact to international test Rugby it would have as well. The HC is essentially (meant) to be the step between domestic club rugby and 6N international Rugby, it would be deterimental to the England squad members if they didn't face other top flight European clubs at the very least.

The problem is many HC games arent at that level and have smaller crowds than the domestic ones. This is especially true for the French.
Teams arent facing opposition better than they get in the domestic leagues in many games

If it were meeeting the stated goals we wouldnt have such an issue with its future, and we wouldnt have 3000 people turn up to watch a one sided game.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

AlastairW wrote:
I'd certainly miss it. I'm usually down my club ground on HC match day, normally a sell out occasion, and good to meet the travelling contingent.

Think about the impact to international test Rugby it would have as well. The HC is essentially (meant) to be the step between domestic club rugby and 6N international Rugby, it would be deterimental to the England squad members if they didn't face other top flight European clubs at the very least.

The problem is many HC games arent at that level and have smaller crowds than the domestic ones. This is especially true for the French.
Teams arent facing opposition better than they get in the domestic leagues in many games

If it were meeeting the stated goals we wouldnt have such an issue with its future, and we wouldnt have 3000 people turn up to watch a one sided game.

Agreed. Which is shame, because on paper it sounds great!

The answer would be to form an elite comeptition with 3 IRFU Provinces and 7 French clubs and 7 British clubs (franchised, theyd be English except for the Cardiff Celtic Dragons who play every third home game at the liberty).
Play each other twice and you have a garaunteed same number of games as those who currently play in the Pro12/Jeff and reach the HC final all against strong well supported viable teams.

It wont happen of course. And would screw half the 6 nations.


Because what people dont want is a viable strong euro elite comeptition, despite what they think.

Beshocked - I have just caught up with the other thread and I agree with the points you raised.

My main bugbear is the moral blackmail that some people are throwing around - 'X' nation would suffer catastrophically and their rugby would go down the tubes - well just go and look outside of the cosy little 6 nations set up - others seem to be surviving without the HC dole hand-out.

I think the whole European setup should be thoroughly overhauled, it’s getting too stale and there are a few clubs who are becoming dependant on a hand-out that they would not get if it wasn't for the cosy little set up we have.

Think about the impact to international test Rugby it would have as well. The HC is essentially (meant) to be the step between domestic club rugby and 6N international Rugby, it would be detrimental to the England squad members if they didn't face other top flight European clubs at the very least.

AlastairW – Good day Sir

Well I’m pleased to find you enjoy your teams outing in the HC – did they earn the right to get there or was it handed to them by their Union – Remember half of the English and French clubs don’t get to partake in HC rugby, so treasure your participation.

“The HC is essentially (meant) to be the step between domestic club rugby and 6N international Rugby” – well it would be if the very best teams were there by merit – but they are not are they? So SOME of the best English players (not all of the England side play for those clubs lucky enough to get into the HC) get to play the best players from the other 6N sides, but it’s not a 100% merit based competition, so the pitching up against the best in Europe is not always the case.

”it would be detrimental to the England squad members if they didn't face other top flight European clubs at the very least” – it’s not so long ago that at least four of the English backline were not getting any HC games, so perhaps that’s not such a valid statement as you obviously think. (Wilkinson, Flood, Tait and Noon).

And even if your opinion was 100% correct, is that good enough to prop up a competition that is due for overhaul? Remember the HC was set up when the only Union to have the Region/Province model was Ireland. During the course of the current contract the Scots and the Welsh have adopted a different operating model and the Scots, Welsh and Irish have all joined together in the same league. In a way, the formation of the ‘Celtic’ League back in the early 00’s invalidated the concept of the different national leagues sending teams to compete in a European club competition. It’s like three people sharing a car on a business trip and all claiming mileage on their expense account.

Beshocked firstly I was referring to 6 teams from pro 12 not 8 your suggestion is better therefore kudo's to you sir. Secondly since they joined pro 12 Trevisio are a lot better, they are from a country that does not have nearly the appetite fro rugby our own nations do so I think they did remarkably well and as I say wait to this weekend however I would agree with our theory if it was 8 clubs but that's not what clubs are proposing they are proposing 6 pro 12 teams where they would either have it based on league position and Italy would miss out on representation and Scotland and or Wales would lose out on more than Ireland at the minute or it would have representation plus 2 more meaning that Ireland would miss out on 2 of their teams in and so would wales presuming the 2nd scotland team and italian team didn't make it in. Your suggestion though would certainly be fairer in my eyes so fair play.

Noon and Tait lol in what way did they make it with England neither one has set the world on fire and Flood only became an England regular when he got in the Heineken Cup pal. So your argument was somewhat ruined by this. Also who is surviving? Romania, Georgia yeah your right because their club and international teams are something to be feared.
Who's becoming dependent on a handout? What proof have you got of this or is that another sweeping statement with no proof?
Would you say Ulster, Munster or Leinster don't deserve to be there?
Finally pal an opinion cannot be right or wrong that is why it is an opinion not a fact.
This is a debate an everyone is entitled to their opinion.

If English clubs withdrew from Europe, what should they do?


Nothing, just shuffle the premiership dates around to take better account of international absences and provide rest periods allowing improved player management.

Europe takes up only 9 weeks of the season. As it is international players often miss 7 weeks of Premiership rugby, 1 week before the AIs, 2 during the AIs if there are 4 matches, and 4 weeks during the 6Ns. With the European final held between the Premiership SF & Final, that can simply be moved forward a week and the season end a week earlier, giving more time for international players to rest and prepare for the summer tour. That would leave only 1 week unaccounted for, so give players an extra week over the summer or one with their families over the Christmas period.

If it's necessary to fill some of those 7 weeks midseason with something I would go low key and fun to maintain the idea of player management and rest. Maybe an extra club 7s tournament or combined club regional tournament (i.e. Midlands, North, SE, SW).

None of this will be necessary though, compromises will be made by all parties and a European competition featuring teams from all the current nations will continue.