Should Provinces be in the H-Cup?

Recently I have started to notice that a number of posters are raising questions about the provinces being in the H-cup.

Some I think are Welsh fans looking for a way Welsh clubs could get back into Europe and the top teir of Welsh rubgy, other are English fans who think they have to many advantages.

But what are your thoughts?

It begs the question is the H-cup, for the top domestic teams from each Union, or the top clubs?

For me its the top Domestic teams from each union, In ireland the top tier has always been the Provinces, and the clubs always fed into these.

For me if there was a cup against South Africian sides (sometimes mentioned) I would want it to be against the SA super 15 sides and not the Currie cup sides, I would want the best teams in Ireland to be playing the best teams in SA.

If the English/French were to set up a cup with SA would they want to be playing Super XV or Currie cup sides? and even then Currie cup teams are teams representing either entire provinces or substantial regions within provinces, therefore by these posters logic the Anglo(French)-SA cup would be English prem teams V Vodaphone cup teams?

For me I don't understand why some people do not want to play the best domestic teams in Ireland, but want the lower tier ones?
Would Exeter fans really have preferred to have travelled to St Mary's College to play in front of a small crowd in Templeville Road for an easy win, or gone to play Leinster in the RDS?

In all, Provinces have always been entered in H-cup and there were never any complaints untill Leinster started winning it, if you want a competition for the best teams from each union, then its the Provinces, if you want to play the top teams in Ireland, its the Provinces you have to play.

Good point about the SA sides. If the Jeff and T14 sides went into a club competition with the SA sides I assume that they would want to have the super-rugby sides in order to be able to sell tickets. I suspect that they would be happier to have Currie Cup sides though as they wouold still be billed as 'big' teams, but would be far easier to beat, and as such make the JEff/T14 product look better to the wider audience, and probably bring in more dosh from advertising etc. And in the end of the day, rugby is no longer about the game, its all about the cash.

IIRC when the HEC started the only provinces were Irish,the other unions entered clubs.Also IIRC the French/English clubs were not over happy in 2007 when the last agreement was reached.
As far as the hypothetical FRA/ENG/SA comp goes it is the reason why I asked if they thought they could support a 14 team pro league as a similar number to Top14/AP(as is the RABO) with top half into top comp & bottom half into 2nd tier.How is it any different than wanting the top half of the RABO into tier 1 comp & rest nto tier2 comp?

Don't know if they would want Currie Cup sides because if they didn't alway beat them it would make the English prem look like a second tier competition, and devalue it.
Top English teams = 2nd tier SA teams

Wales regionalised becuase they realised the clubs couldn't compete on a level with the top tier in France/Ireland and England and needed to introduce a higher level, that concentrated resources and should be able to compete an the same Level.

The majority of Rabo supporting posters seem to think that it's about stopping Irish teams from competing. Under the FRE/ENG proposal the winning team for the last few years would still have qualified,they just want a similar playing field. We want a best from each league to compete having earned their place.
How well do you think Rabo teams would do against 4 teams made up from the best players from each of the Top14/AP?

How would the English national team do if the squad was frinm just 4 clubs? and how would the English clubs do if limited to only 5 non english players?

Each system has its pro and cons.

We used to have regional sides in England till about 15 years ago ( maybe longer, i am getting old) , noone gave a cared about them.

But Broadlandboy, I think Irish teams would do quite nicely thank you against such sides, as when our best plays your best in the 6N, we have winning record (8-5)

But you're not comparing like with like. Ireland has about 120 full time professional players and another say 100 or so acadmey guys, with a few semi pros in the 3rd tier competition that is the All Ireland league (1st tier are the provinces, then the 'A' provinces and finally the clubs) Clubs like Leicester could probably match what Leinster or Munster have on their books on their own.

Not to mention the fact that it is precisely the resisitance to regional rugby and such the like that has internal English cleavages (by regional rugby i mean the differing agendae of the PRL and RFU) and in France the similar clashes between the FFR (Union) and the LNR (Club Body)

So while Ireland's provincial system might seem unfair, it was and is the only practical and sustainable solution in Irish rugby in the Pro era and it is mere jealousy that Ireland has somewhat perfected its pro structures in respect of development and success. The International side letting things down a little, but we are still way way way way way better than we were at any stage in the amateur era in terms of win ratios, consistancy and abilty to compete, esp with the SH sides......France and the All Blacks being are bete noirs all the same....

broadlandboy wrote:The majority of Rabo supporting posters seem to think that it's about stopping Irish teams from competing. Under the FRE/ENG proposal the winning team for the last few years would still have qualified,they just want a similar playing field. We want a best from each league to compete having earned their place.
How well do you think Rabo teams would do against 4 teams made up from the best players from each of the Top14/AP?

To be honest I think it would be rather interesting to see what would happen if those 4 teams made from the Jeff and T14 would cope if they were dealing with the same union imposed rules that the IRFU and WRU put upon their regions/provinces. At the moment there is a limit of 8 NWQs (max of 6 capped) in the WRUs regions, and the IRFU are having that rule about only one NIQ per position in their provinces, as well as agreements about player welfare etc being inplace. What would the Jeff or T14 version of regions/provinces look like?

If Wales were to go back to the club system and a league of twelve clubs, and then entered the HEC on an even playing feild with the Jeff/T14 then they would be entitled to have 5-6 teams in the HEC. And to be honest those teams would be Llanelli (made up pretty much of the Scarlets squad), Cardiff (Blues), Newport (Dragons), Swansea (Ospreys) and one other that would be made up of far far lesser players. I am not too sure how evenly the Irish provincial players would be spread if they had to enter non-provincial sides, but I would hazard a guess that the IRFU would ideally try to ensure that the best players we kept to the best sides.

Supposing there were no provinces (or regions). The Irish club sides would be competing and highly likely they wouldn't have won a HEC. It would be between England and French teams every year and they'd play their second teams against Celtic clubs. There'd be little away supporters, feck all atmosphere. TV money for the event wouldn't be a 1/4 of what it is now because nobody would pay to watch one sided hammerings. The French teams might not consider it worthy of competing in. The HEC would be what the Amlin is now. The best Irish players would be playing in England and France.

PS, I bolded that sentence because its relevant for the HEC discussions.

It comes down to a question I keep asking . Is the HEC a club or union Competition? & or which should it be?
The AP/TOP14 has done more for world rugby than any national union

broadlandboy wrote:It comes down to a question I keep asking . Is the HEC a club or union Competition? & or which should it be?
The AP/TOP14 has done more for world rugby than any national union

Realistically what is the difference between a club or regional/provincial tournament? There are strong clubs and weak clubs, and there are strong regions/provinces and weak regions/provinces. It is not as though any sides are entering intentionally weak sides (bar the french a few times) or using it to blood youngsters. Does regional/provincial really make any difference? No it doesn't it is just an arguement used to try and lever more money/better chances of winning.

Broad

You are a class above

As stated on another thread Some claim ithe Hec is a union comp then have players from other nations in their team so are not union teams

As stated by you

IMSVHO

AFAIK the places in the HEC are allocated to each Union.

It doesn't matter which country the players are from in this regard, just where they play.

MrsP wrote:AFAIK the places in the HEC are allocated to each Union.

It doesn't matter which country the players are from in this regard, just where they play.

Especially if they are South African and have been in a country for 3 years

They would still be under the regulation of the Union of their team no matter if they had been there for 3 minutes.

Should Provinces be in the H-Cup?

Six of them should.

broadlandboy you keep asking the same question and getting the same answer and then go to antoher thread same question same answer.

H-cup run by ERC,
ERC made up 6 nations Unions
2 seats per Union on the board (French and English and given one seat each to their top club bodies)

Your mixing up Union teams with national teams,
"then have players from other nations in their team so are not union teams"
no just not International teams, Provinces owned by IRFU, but are allowed to have a set number of NIQ players.
Just because they have NIQ players doesn't mean they aren't owed, controlled and operated by the IRFU, does it?

So to answer your question, is H-cup a club or Union comp. Its a comp run by the Unions (with French and English giving some of their seats to the clubs) for the top domestic teams from each Union.

What is your defination of a Union team, if you think that having NIQ players in Provinces makes them not Union teams?

Nah, I think i have to just accept that people who wilfully fail to comprehend and/or accept that the ERC competitions were set up and run by the constituent Unions to be lost causes.

Exactly like the 6 Nations is. Which has twice expanded to include another team. Incidently, I think the French had to wait 19 or 20 years before they won a 5 Nations champ, so ease up on the Italians in both the 6N and HEC comps.

Rome wasn't built in a day....

debaters1 wrote:Nah, I think i have to just accept that people who wilfully fail to comprehend and/or accept that the ERC competitions were set up and run by the constituent Unions to be lost causes.

Exactly like the 6 Nations is. Which has twice expanded to include another team. Incidently, I think the French had to wait 19 or 20 years before they won a 5 Nations champ, so ease up on the Italians in both the 6N and HEC comps.

Rome wasn't built in a day....

debaters1 wrote:Nah, I think i have to just accept that people who wilfully fail to comprehend and/or accept that the ERC competitions were set up and run by the constituent Unions to be lost causes.

Yes I agree , the HEC was set up and run by constituent Unions to be lost causes. Wales Scotland and Italy have succeeded, the other three failed.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

debaters1 wrote:Nah, I think i have to just accept that people who wilfully fail to comprehend and/or accept that the ERC competitions were set up and run by the constituent Unions, to be lost causes.

Yes I agree , the HEC was set up and run by constituent Unions to be lost causes. Wales Scotland and Italy have succeeded, the other three failed.

I forgot a comma there, my apologies!

In the time honoured fashion, answer a question with a question....

Should a team (Leinster) that have virtually all played together against the All Blacks and or South Africa be considered for a club competition ??

If the answer is YES then the playing field is not level, playing against teams and players who will never have that opportunity.

If the answer is NO then it is up to the other Unions to match that structure that the IRFU have created.

The PROBLEM lies in that you need enough teams to create a competition, which is provided by the non concentrated English and French clubs which is then commercially viable. Otherwise if you concentrate players you end up with Test trials sides and French and English fans won't buy it and is therefore a non starter, commercially.

The only compromise is meritocratic qualification which doesn't or won't affect Leinster anyway.

broadlandboy wrote:It comes down to a question I keep asking . Is the HEC a club or union Competition? & or which should it be?
The AP/TOP14 has done more for world rugby than any national union

What? What exactly have they done for world rugby? oh yeah they helped Italian clubs by including them in their league oh no wait that was the pro 12. Explain what they have done exactly?

They have more players from other nations that can not support a pro laegue playing top level rugby

broadlandboy wrote:They have more players from other nations that can not support a pro laegue playing top level rugby

And you cant type/spell .

tecphobe wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:They have more players from other nations that can not support a pro laegue playing top level rugby

And you cant type/spell .

Nor can you

broadlandboy wrote:They have more players from other nations that can not support a pro laegue playing top level rugby

I will take your point good sir but I would argue how can you quantify that as doing more than anyone else, I mean Pro 12 took on 2 Italian teams which has improved Trevisio and hopefully in the future Zebre immensely. It's pretty ahrd to quantify but I take your point.

neilthom7 wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:They have more players from other nations that can not support a pro laegue playing top level rugby

I will take your point good sir but I would argue how can you quantify that as doing more than anyone else, I mean Pro 12 took on 2 Italian teams which has improved Trevisio and hopefully in the future Zebre immensely. It's pretty ahrd to quantify but I take your point.

The Italian sides had to buy their way in and there were plenty in Italy that weren't happy that they were relegated to the 2nd tier of Italian rugby with no chance of doing better. They didn't create fake regions like Wales. It was simply these sides are going in and screw the rest. This may be better for Italian International rugby (forcus players into a couple of sides and have they repeatedly against the other PRO12 sides) but it might not be best for Italian rugby as a whole. We'll see.

Most of the Italian best players were in the French and English leagues long before the Magners league deemed them fit to join... for a stonking great fee and the need for extra fixtures.....
Argentine and PI players are all in the club leagues as every other franchise/league is a closed shop and not the slightest bit interested.

Vallejos is with Scarlets. There are a few PI players around as well