Is the HEC bulls**t crusade going to kill Scottish and Italian rugby?

If they get their way and marginalise the smaller nations, surely players will leave, fans will stop going and rugby will (comparatively) die in those countries

Or it could open it up to a truely European comp

Does this topic really need yet another thread with a mildly offensive tone?

Yes... I felt offended by those two too!

These I mean **. The bloomin' cheek of them showing up to put fuel on the already out of control fire.

Will playing in a (admitedly) 2nd tier pan european competition where they will be truly competitive and winning games on a regular basis be better for them and help them develop more than being stuffed all the time?

SecretFly wrote:Yes... I felt offended by those two too!

These I mean **. The bloomin' cheek of them showing up to put fuel on the already out of control fire.

Though I do feel 2 threads is enough

Its not the launguage, its the tone , misrepresentative, accusatory confrontational ,one eyed, tribalistic nature of the post thats offensive.

Being offended is en vogue

Sport is the very definition of Tribalism. Certainly team sport is.

I kinda laugh every time I hear someone use it as a whip to beat down the animalistic sorts who know nothing about the contours of business best practice and the art of finance guiding where the rugby ball goes.

lostinwales wrote:Will playing in a (admitedly) 2nd tier pan european competition where they will be truly competitive and winning games on a regular basis be better for them and help them develop more than being stuffed all the time?

If I have read the numerous articles in the press correctly, then the new competition would not actually take either the Scottish or Italians out of the equation (6 teams, each teams top based side, and then league standing from then on). However going on last seasons result it would see the HEC entries from the Rabo being Leinster(1st -best irish), Ospreys (2nd -best welsh), Munster (3rd), Glasgow (4th - best scottish), Scarlets (5th) and Treviso (10th - best italian). So that would mean that Ulster, Edinburgh, Blues and Zebre would be the sides dropping down to the lower level tournament. That would mean some serious hidings for lower level sides, seeing what Ulster have done to the bigger sides in all competitions this season.

SecretFly wrote:Sport is the very definition of Tribalism. Certainly team sport is.

I kinda laugh every time I hear someone use it as a whip to beat down the animalistic sorts who know nothing about the contours of business best practice and the art of finance guiding where the rugby ball goes.

Sport is, but serious discussion and avoiding nationalistic clashes and hatred isnt really helped by it.
Ask Biltong.

Nothing of the kind was occuring here, Peter. Toml expressed a perfectly reasonable concern that both Scotland and Italy have.

Like I said in another post, we all could have been offended by tones in here over the months of this specific topic. Pro12 sides and followers, and their individual Unions, could certainly have simply voiced the offensiveness of outside Leagues trying to dictate how we run our affairs...but instead most of us just got on with the discussion and the argument - leaving the idea of who offended who to speak for itself through the detailed posts on the specifics.

The debate has been divisive - for sure it has, we can't smile and pretend it hasn't been or isn't still. There are few nice "we're all pals really" ways to articulate how wronged a person or a club or a Union feels... on both sides.

Alternative view being that removing the guaranteed pass into the HEC may actually improve scottish and Italian rugby in the long term. Surely more people would turn up to an end of season home game where Glasgow (for example) need to win to get 6th place and a HEC spot versus current situation where the game would be meaningless?

But would they?

Not many turned up to see their HEC game against Castres.

Could rugby in Scotland or Italy survive the reduced income?

Ok yes I agree is crusade by the Welsh and Irish to drive the French and English out of the HEC and bankrupt the Scotts and Italians

This idea that 'meaning' transfers 'quality' to a side really does need a thread of its own. Because it is certainly an idea that can be challenged.

Because an end of season lower ranked game has meaning.... that actually trying to win the League obviously didn't!!... that will mean that suddenly the game will become a much more physical and skilled game, full of invention and effort and silky passing, and roaring crowds?

Winning the League means something. If the efforts aren't good enough to be there, that simply means the team isn't capable of those efforts and won't suddenly be turning those exciting abilities on because a slot in HEC is on offer. If the ability is there to inject meaning into a HEC qualification game then the ability should be there to have been in contention for the League title itself - and having a crowd behind you supporting you on your way. If that ability or interest isn't there, then I suggest the fundamental reasons for that are much deeper than the idea of games with 'meaning'.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Ok yes I agree is crusade by the Welsh and Irish to drive the French and English out of the HEC and bankrupt the Scotts and Italians

I can feel your pain............................................................

So if the current set up is not bring out the fans why maintain the status quo?

Maybe drop down to the Amlin, start winning some games, crowds start flocking in (everyone prefers to watch a winning team), interest is renewed, kids are inspired, revenues from gate receipts increase, high quality foreigners can be paid for, squad improves, HEC qualification as a result.

MrsP wrote:But would they?

Not many turned up to see their HEC game against Castres.

Could rugby in Scotland or Italy survive the reduced income?

To look at it the other way if few people turned up to that game last weekend then why should we expect it to suddenly get better of they they stay in the Euro league, all I can see is Scotland progressively going down hill no matter what league they're in. Treviso may at least grow over time.

Islington

Or alternatively dropping into the 2nd tier brings lesser opposition, less big names, crowds drop off and lower quality foreigners can be afforded, squad reduces in quality and size and become further from HC qualification.

To be fair if Scotland had managed to keep the Border Reivers going then we may not be talking about this so much,

They would have have to qualify rather than getting automatic passes into H-cup.

I think since they disbanded the Reivers the SRU must have expected maybe something like talk of SRU losing a qualifition place to come up.

I think Edinburgh peed the French off by beating thier most famous team, but finishing near bottom of pro 12 (losing most games) and still getting into H-cup the following year.

If a few years ago we had changed it to SRU have one auto entry and Italy have one auto entry and bottom Scottish team plays off against bottom Italian team (not sure what happens extra spot, awarded to league with highest co-efficient in Europe). If we had done this when italy first joined would be be having the talks we are now about major change?

(ok with this Scotland or Italy would have lost a place each year,)

or

Could have looked at IRFU/WRU/SRU/FIR all gave up one automatic entry, and not qualified teams would have a play off for the 4 spots.

ie this year Leisnter Munster, Ospreys glasgow, Scarlets, Treviso would all qualify

Ulster, Blues, Connacht Dragons edinburgh zebre, play off for 4 spots

I think if we had done something we could have avoided the position we now fine ourselves, and its to late to look at these options.

Islingtonv2 wrote:So if the current set up is not bring out the fans why maintain the status quo?

Maybe drop down to the Amlin, start winning some games, crowds start flocking in (everyone prefers to watch a winning team), interest is renewed, kids are inspired, revenues from gate receipts increase, high quality foreigners can be paid for, squad improves, HEC qualification as a result.

Glasgow fans already have chances to watch a 'winning team'. They play against some of the strongest sides in Europe as a whole, regularly, and win games in the league. They're currently 5th in a league that contains both of last year's HEC finalists.

I'm not so certain they need Amlin to learn how to play rugby and win. I personally think they're in the best training ground in Europe. Plus...winning games is not winning titles - if you're saying that Glasgow in the Amlin would have an easy route to the finals of the Amlin, you'd be lying.

So when or if they fall away in that tournament? We're back to the motivation to keep them going? Where will the meaningful games be then as they leave the Amlin earlier than planned?

The top is the top - and that's where experience is best gained. Pro12 league and HEC - tough but an education with meaning.

To be honest if anyone is to blame for our demise its ourselves, our union. We should be relying on sympathy on handouts... we should be qualifying like others do.

We should be developing our own players not relying on guys like Tom Heathcote to fill our skills gaps.

When I was growing up our side was taking the ABs all the way and our team was vital to the 89 Lions tour victory. Its the same with football... kids today are more involved in playstation etc to go out and become top sportsman.

But the SRU has done nothing to improve the game and allow us to stand on our own feet.

Qualifying may just give the players, the union the kick up the backside they need to make some longterm progress... rather than right some phoney business plan about winning the world cup.

But but but - nobody is saying they shouldnt be playing in the rabo - nobody is saying that they shouldnt play in the HEC if they are playing well enough at league level.

If they are not playing so well they might get more out of playing in a euro cup at a level where they have a chance of progressing rather than being canon fodder

thebluesmancometh wrote:Islington

Or alternatively dropping into the 2nd tier brings lesser opposition, less big names, crowds drop off and lower quality foreigners can be afforded, squad reduces in quality and size and become further from HC qualification.

Absolutely possible, nobody could say for sure exactly what the result would be tho. I'm just putting accross a less doom laden scenario

As an outsider to scottish rugby my view is that they have been going down hill for the past 15 plus years, all during a period when the top clubs/regions have had guaranteed access to the highest quality club competition available. Perhaps embracing a more meritocratic sporting structure will drive improvement. The entitlement approach doesn't seem to have worked.

The problem with that is that as soon as that structure is in place Scotland lose 50% of their involvement with the comp, which means the SRU suffers, the club not involved suffers, support for the game nationwide suffers and playing potential suffers!!

The Celt nations decided what was best for them on a european basis and set up the Rabo to aid themselves and the national teams, now the PRL want to disrupt this to get more income without considering what ramifications it will have on the smaller nations, and game!!!

What the PRL want may well be the end of rugby in any euro nation less than 10mill people strong and with a huge rugby following!!

Did the "Celt nations" cosnider the ramification setting up the Rabo would have?
I notice you are often very critical of the system Bluesman, till it comes to using it as a stick to beat the English with and paint is as evil boogeymen ( depsite you wanting to come and work in the Jeff)

Could we not say the bullshineing crusade by the Irish to dominate europe is in danger of destroying the lesser celts?

Or would that be offensive?

I don't now who you can say a team that were good enough to be in last years Pro 12 play offs, should drop down to Almin to build crowds

If games in h cup and reaching play offs don't get crowds in, playing in Almin isn't going to help.

SecretFly wrote:

Islingtonv2 wrote:So if the current set up is not bring out the fans why maintain the status quo?

Maybe drop down to the Amlin, start winning some games, crowds start flocking in (everyone prefers to watch a winning team), interest is renewed, kids are inspired, revenues from gate receipts increase, high quality foreigners can be paid for, squad improves, HEC qualification as a result.

Glasgow fans already have chances to watch a 'winning team'. They play against some of the strongest sides in Europe as a whole, regularly, and win games in the league. They're currently 5th in a league that contains both of last year's HEC finalists.

I'm not so certain they need Amlin to learn how to play rugby and win. I personally think they're in the best training ground in Europe. Plus...winning games is not winning titles - if you're saying that Glasgow in the Amlin would have an easy route to the finals of the Amlin, you'd be lying.

So when or if they fall away in that tournament? We're back to the motivation to keep them going? Where will the meaningful games be then as they leave the Amlin earlier than planned?

The top is the top - and that's where experience is best gained. Pro12 league and HEC - tough but an education with meaning.

They've been there 15 years already, when's the penny going to drop?

Kingshu wrote:I don't now who you can say a team that were good enough to be in last years Pro 12 play offs, should drop down to Almin to build crowds

If games in h cup and reaching play offs don't get crowds in, playing in Almin isn't going to help.

Firstly it was a hypothetical, maybe using Edinburgh or Treviso would have been better example but being a hypothetical i didn't think it would matter

Secondly, if interest in scottish rugby is dying anyway why fear a different approach?

Now how does that definition of insanity quote go.......

The only reason a team walks onto a field is to dominate

Are Irish sides now guilty for playing above the standards ever envisaged by the French and English as they gratefully signed the dotted line way back and 'dominated' it for roughly the first 10 years.

We were all cannon fodder back then and things were pleasing to the big two. Domination was then something noble and epic...now it's just something sleazy and unfair running down a gutter somewhere west of Holyhead. Ah I miss the Legendary times.

Plus, I wait for the change in mood if an English side wins HEC this year! "Hmm, no hold on a sec.... just hold on a sec....maybe we were a little hasty wanting change. Maybe we're falling in love with this show all over again"

PSW

The celt nations recognised they had a problem and changed their system to best benefit themselves, the PRL recognised a problem and decided to make 4 other nations change their systems to best benefit themselves.

That is basically whats happening here. I don't need to make them a villain because with illegal TV deals, criticism from their own GB they have done that themselves!!

So when the Pro12 kicked out Aironi because they couldnt meet their finacial obligations was that not about the money and for the good of Italian rugby?
Can you remind me what their reasoning was behind not allowing 4 Italian regions too?

You know just asking.....

thebluesmancometh wrote:PSW

The celt nations recognised they had a problem and changed their system to best benefit themselves, the PRL recognised a problem and decided to make 4 other nations change their systems to best benefit themselves.

That is basically whats happening here. I don't need to make them a villain because with illegal TV deals, criticism from their own GB they have done that themselves!!

Well to be fair it was done at the time specified for negotiating a new deal. As oppossed to the Rabo nations who arbiitarily changed the entire nature of their league and club set ups ( to best suit themsleves) and way they nominated for the HC outside of that proccess.

Yknow...just saying....

Islingtonv2 wrote:

They've been there 15 years already, when's the penny going to drop?

Aren't they having a tough time meeting the leviathan giants of the Great Old Leagues of France and England that the crusaders talked about in Jerusalem in olden times to incite fear and respect amongst the natives?

You're actually saying Glasgow should be having an easy romp through that lot every year? My, how moods change

PSW

Exactly!! We did it to best suit ourselves, we asked nothing of the HC, Amlin, PRL or FFR, we did what we thought would suit our game the best, however the PRL is doing what they feel is best for English clubs, by forcing change to others!!

Quick question, have the PRL or their supporters wondered how this will effect the game in England, how the national team will be effected, or how English support will be effected?

SecretFly wrote:

Islingtonv2 wrote:

They've been there 15 years already, when's the penny going to drop?

Aren't they having a tough time meeting the leviathan giants of the Great Old Leagues of France and England that the crusaders talked about in Jerusalem in olden times to incite fear and respect amongst the natives?

You're actually saying Glasgow should be having an easy romp through that lot every year? My, how moods change

Why not? Its Hollywood through the medium of Mel Gibson what learnt me that.

p.s. please use "ye" in front of "olden times".

thebluesmancometh wrote:Islington

Or alternatively dropping into the 2nd tier brings lesser opposition, less big names, crowds drop off and lower quality foreigners can be afforded, squad reduces in quality and size and become further from HC qualification.

This is unfortunately what I think would happen, it could also impact on the 6 nations - increasing the gap between the teams at the top and bottom.

If the italians are given more time to progress as with the 6 nations (and hopefully with a degree of success) they could expand their pro 12 involvement with more teams further down the line. If they have reduced opportunity with the HC their best players will go back to france.

Should rugby not be looking to become a bigger and more diverse sport (as it is internationally) rather than a totally elitist?
Look at the rugby championship - slightly diluting quality with argentina but broadening horizons and interest


If you want elitist then make a euro super league with:

Toulon
Toulouse
Clermont
Leicester
Harlequins
Saracens
Ulster
Munster
Leinster

No qualification, just invitation.

I wouldn't put the Italians with the Scots. They are comparable in so many ways, but remember at the start of professionalism Italy was outside the cosy club of the big 8 unions and Scotland was in. Advantage SRU over the FIR and yet Italy may well overtake Scotland in many ways were the status quo to continue.

Italy has it's problems running the game and is riven by internal politics too (the politics of where the two representative teams go, the folding of Aironi and the creation of Zebre illustrate that) but I think all in all Italy have done better than Scotland in relative terms.

Of course, for all the progress Italy have made it could be set back at least five years if they don't get a favourable deal in these ERC negotiations. I have a lot more sympathy for them than the Scots. The SRU have essentially failed to back their provinces and are themselves the architects of Glasgow and Edinburghs failure whereas Italy are making steady progress only to see the door slammed in their face before they arrive. A change will also set a precedent for anyone below Italy or Scotland; if their teams participation is in question, no other European nation will ever have representation at the top table.

Just like you see kids in every country in the world in Man Utd or Real Madrid shirts, people who get watching or playing the game across Europe outside established rugby nations will find an English, French or maybe an Irish side to support (if our masters deign to allow us to continue to dine at the top table).

What I have loved most about supporting Ulster in the Heineken Cup over the years is not our success or failure, but seeing local players grow up to represent the area I come from at the highest level playing the game I love. Even if we were hammered every match I would still love that. It makes me sad that if someone in Madrid or Munich (or maybe eventually even Rome, Parma, Glasgow, Edinburgh) falls in love with this sport as much as I have, they will never be given the same opportunity to see a side of their brightest local talent represent them in Europe.

I think a European rugby cartel is an inevitability, every man for themselves, dog eat dog and the like. Hope Ulster get on the lifeboat before it leaves.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Islington

Or alternatively dropping into the 2nd tier brings lesser opposition, less big names, crowds drop off and lower quality foreigners can be afforded, squad reduces in quality and size and become further from HC qualification.

this is what would happen.

also the HC itself would be devalued by becoming a franglo cup with token other representation

Good post Notch . Most real rugby fans would applaud that sentiment.

However it seems the Corinthian spirit of participation and fair play has long been superseded by the greed of the English and French club owners, looking to maximise their return on investment. To do that they need to win, therefore the fewer opponents the better.

There can be little doubt the PRL would adopt the American "World Series" model if they could i.e. guarantee an English win every year, (even if there's no competition).

Notch

Sad picture but one the PRL is clearly looking for, IMHO mainland europe has no chance of progressing to where Italy were, on the brink of success and not being able to get ignored, similar with Argentina.

The likes of Spain, Portugal and Russia are all looking at 7's now the olympics have anounced it, money is starting to get into the game from what I hear, and thats what the full game needs, create a 2nd tier 6N maybe, with mainland european teams entering, create a bit of a buzz at international level, then filter that down to the club game with more and more exposure and opportunities for success, not close the door to anyone without a TV audience!!!

The glass ceiling is hardly a PRL invention bluesman. The 6Ns cartel is guilty of preventing any enlargement or pan-European interest traditionally.

The Great Aukster wrote:Good post Notch . Most real rugby fans would applaud that sentiment.

However it seems the Corinthian spirit of participation and fair play has long been superseded by the greed of the English and French club owners, looking to maximise their return on investment. To do that they need to win, therefore the fewer opponents the better.

There can be little doubt the PRL would adopt the American "World Series" model if they could i.e. guarantee an English win every year, (even if there's no competition).

I really don't follow this. The PRL and French proposal brought in teams from other countries into another tier of European rugby,with mechanisms for them to get into the next tier. The proposal by the ERC was to create a single 32 team competition. That would get rid of the few non-6N teams currently in the Amlin. Yet it's the clubs that are stopping the development of these clubs? The true cartel in European rugby is the 6N unions. The ERC is a continuation of this. They only care about themselves.

Also, the proposals would screw over the Scots and Italians (apparently). So these teams are the major blockers for the English teams winning the competition? Not the French and Irish? If it truly WAS about winning the ERC they would have still had 6 teams from the PRO12 (as in the current proposal) but had 2 Welsh, 2 Irish, 1 Scot and 1 Italian. That way there would only ever be 2 Irish sides in it and Munster, Leinster and Ulster would have to kick the Poopie out of each other in the league to qualify. THAT would have put blockers on the Irish. The original proposals would have allowed the Irish to get 3 teams in quite comfortably. The rest probably the best Welsh sides with an Italian or Scot now and then.

If you believe your own cowpat and it makes you happy then good for you.

The Great Aukster wrote:However it seems the Corinthian spirit of participation and fair play has long been superseded by the greed of the English and French club owners, looking to maximise their return on investment. To do that they need to win, therefore the fewer opponents the better.

You guys really on an almighty circle jerk. This dross could not be further from the truth.

Why did the evil, all destroying, megalomaniac English & French serve notice in 2007 after they had won for the last 5/6 years? They didn't agree with an aged 20 year set up. It has nothing to do with the persecution of others. They just don't agree with it as it stands. Which is why they served notice this time, which they were entirely entitled to as per terms of the last agreement.

Such an explanation doesn't seem to rub for the nigh on racist comments against the English (and to lesser extent French) on this board. It's just so much easier for the other nations to throw mud and entrench as opposed to actually open your ears and listen, and talk. Blame the English for everything is a lot easier than actually reaching a compromise; path of least resistance and maintaining the status quo which doesn't take into consideration the view of 33% of participants is as selfish as anything the English and French have ever done.

AlastairW wrote:

Such an explanation doesn't seem to rub for the nigh on racist comments against the English (and to lesser extent French) on this board. It's just so much easier for the other nations to throw mud and entrench as opposed to actually open your ears and listen, and talk. Blame the English for everything is a lot easier than actually reaching a compromise; path of least resistance and maintaining the status quo which doesn't take into consideration the view of 33% of participants is as selfish as anything the English and French have ever done.

I know we are never going to agree but that is simply nonsense. Little point in debating this but that scurrilous nonsense cannot go by unchallenged

The PRL proposals are not and can never be acceptable to the rest. No interest from the PRL in a compromise at all and lots of nonsensical bluster about other competitions. To ameliorate an nonsensical and insulting initial offer by a tiny amount is no compromise.

Nor is there any logic or merit in their position - its all about money and power for a small number of club owners. the supposed expansion is a smokescreen. Their willingness to destry all others if they are enriched is pretty offfensive

Its not racist to point out that the PRL are acting as nasty arrogant bullies. Its the truth

Are you really that naive? Do you really believe waht you post

I havn't heard anyone slate the English or French, the PRL have come under fire yes, and they deserve to after the illegalities theyve brought to the table (RFU's wording not mine)

And again I'd like to ask two eyed English fans what they think thsi deal would do to the HC, AP, 6N and interest of the game in England? I for one think if the PRL get their way the game in europe and England will suffer massively, the RFU are struggling when it comes to PRL matters as it is, and this causes rifts often, infact Ive seen the PRL and AP clubs argue over issues, and the AP clubs own the PRL.

The PRL has become frankensteins monster, it's brokn loose and is now terrorising the villagers!!!

TJ wrote:

AlastairW wrote:

Such an explanation doesn't seem to rub for the nigh on racist comments against the English (and to lesser extent French) on this board. It's just so much easier for the other nations to throw mud and entrench as opposed to actually open your ears and listen, and talk. Blame the English for everything is a lot easier than actually reaching a compromise; path of least resistance and maintaining the status quo which doesn't take into consideration the view of 33% of participants is as selfish as anything the English and French have ever done.

I know we are never going to agree but that is simply nonsense. Little point in debating this but that scurrilous nonsense cannot go by unchallenged

The PRL proposals are not and can never be acceptable to the rest. No interest from the PRL in a compromise at all and lots of nonsensical bluster about other competitions. To ameliorate an nonsensical and insulting initial offer by a tiny amount is no compromise.

Nor is there any logic or merit in their position - its all about money and power for a small number of club owners. the supposed expansion is a smokescreen. Their willingness to destry all others if they are enriched is pretty offfensive

Its not racist to point out that the PRL are acting as nasty arrogant bullies. Its the truth

Are you really that naive? Do you really believe waht you post

No, not a word of it TJ, I just post it to antagonise people.

As for 'the PRL are acting as nasty arrogant bullies. Its the truth' do you really believe what you write? Saying something is the truth doesn't make it so. Yet again, you seem to have forgotten that the LNP also served notice, you just hate the English. Nothing more, nothing less, the PRL could say the sky is blue and you'd still argue against it. That's just mindless discrimination, intractability and as un-conducive to negotiation as you can get.

Put the shoe on the other foot, if the SRU wanted a change to the structure and the PRL & LNP dug their heels in you'd scream 'nasty arrogant bullies' just as loudly. Either way us nasty bully boy English (oh you forgot the LNP/French again) are damned if we do, and damned if we don't. That's an almighty shoulder chip.

So why is talk of a re-structure to the Challenge cup all 'nonsensical bluster'? I suppose you don't like it, so that automatically makes it rubbish to you. A really competitive Challenge cup (and lower T3) see's better quality closer games, gives a chance for developing EU countries to come up through. That really wouldn't fit into your view of the auld enemy though.

thebluesmancometh wrote:The PRL has become frankensteins monster, it's brokn loose and is now terrorising the villagers!!!

Sure you're not studying drama Blues?

Read through the 3 active threads, they have the answers you're looking for, most of them put a lot of eloquently than my replies mate.