Is the HEC bulls**t crusade going to kill Scottish and Italian rugby?

First topic message reminder :

If they get their way and marginalise the smaller nations, surely players will leave, fans will stop going and rugby will (comparatively) die in those countries

Alistair - I do not hate the English - I am English Talking about chips on shoulders - the automatic crys of " everyone hates us" when criticised for wrongdoing is a real bit of nonsense. Ever wondered why the English establishment are hated?

Yes the challenge cup stuff is pure nonsense. Its a sop - crumbs from the table of the rich men. " look you oiks - the second class cup will be good enough for you" If they were serious about his they would put more of their own teams into it.

What wrong doing? How is wanting to negotiate wrong doing? that's such a polarised view. 2 parties start with their respective viewpoints, and compromise is reached. Again, you're so focussed on the PRL/English you have yet again forgotten about the LNP. Those bodies makes up a significant part of the 6N representation (about 33% with equal weightings).

Have any of the other establishments ever really asked themselves why they hate the English? We're not the pantomime bad guys everyone thinks we are, but again, that doesn't fit into your view.

You have obviously haven't watched a lot of the Challenge Cup games, because a lot of them have been absolute belters.

thebluesmancometh wrote:And again I'd like to ask two eyed English fans what they think thsi deal would do to the HC, AP, 6N and interest of the game in England?

Bluesman,
Not sure how objective I am, but I see:
The English clubs truly believe the status quo is not good for their business, nor for Rugby in the big picture.
The French clubs truly believe the status quo is not good for their business, nor for Rugby in the big picture.
The Rabo/Celtic teams truly believe the status quo is very good for their business, and for Rugby.
I don't think anyone is being dishonest in their assessment of the status quo, just with different points of view.

So a compromise does need to be struck which protects the interests of ALL parties. Not easy when eveyone appears to look at this in unduly simplistic win-lose manner. Frankly, here on 606 as well. The problem is a lack of creativity and a lack of openness from all parties. I blame everyone for this mess. The PRL are certainly the most cretinistic in their aproach to public relations and the subtle art of negotiations. Bumbling, really.

For me personally, I don't look at this as a win-lose.
If the PRL find a way to bring in more money, that is good, rght? The negotiation is how to spread some of it around to benefit everyone. Including second tier clubs/unions whilst still giving more money to the teams/clubs/franchises who are earning it (the existing three leagues).
There are certainly teams in the Heineken Cup this year (and other teams each year) who really are too poor and shouldn't be there. We know who they are. If quality of play in every game is the goal, then should the number of teams be reduced? This includes teams from virtually every nation, including England.
Clearly, it is in the best interest of all of us to resurrect Rugby in Scotland and to fertilise the growing base in Italy. How do we leverage the existing structures to do this?
Just a few of many questions. My fingers are tired.

It seems like a compromise amongst the fans is unlikely as a compromise amongst the negotiating parties (what is it now, four rounds of talks that have achieved nothing?).

No idea whats going on behind closed doors but on this forum we're entrenched in our positions and we can only sling mud at each other. No side will concede an inch. Deadlock. We have fundamentally opposed views of how European Rugby should work they no-one is prepared to compromise on. Seems like thats not too far from the truth in the real negotiations.

As a resident of Northern Ireland, I'm getting a strange sense of deja vu...

I am perfectly prepared to compromise. I have suggest a 5/5/8 +2 split for the entrants to the HC

if the new second tier is going to be so good and the need to reduce the numbers in the HC are so pressing then why not go down this road?

Can anyone explain why the Irish / Scots / welsh / Italians must be the ones to have reduced representation but the English and French must not?

Notch wrote:As a resident of Northern Ireland, I'm getting a strange sense of deja vu...

That is actually very sinister

Well, I'm off to continue my bulls**t crusade to kill Scottish and Italian rugby by trotting off to watch Zebre from the pitch side. I expect to see more entrenchment upon my return

AlastairW wrote:

Notch wrote:As a resident of Northern Ireland, I'm getting a strange sense of deja vu...

That is actually very sinister

I hope not brother! I hope not!

Come on, we're just rugby fans who all want the best for our game. Can't you feel the love?

AlastairW wrote:What wrong doing? How is wanting to negotiate wrong doing?

Wrongdoing. negotiating to sell tvs right you do not have with no consultation with other affected and presenting this as a fait acompli. Insisting on changes that are to 4 unions disadvantage and 2 unions advantage and doing so with a threat.

where have they shown any signs of wanting to negotiate? What they have done is said - this is what we want take it of leave it. The idea that of the 6 places they offer to the irish / welsh / Italians / Scots combined could be ameliorated by have one guaranteed place for each nation is a joke. I tiny improvement in a risible offer is not a serious negotiation.

If reducing the number of teams is paramount and so is reducing the number of poor teams then why can the PRL not lose a place as well?

Good post Greytiger.

The English clubs truly believe the status quo is not good for their business, nor for Rugby in the big picture.

What isn't clear to me is what the problems are. How can a compromise be reached if the problems aren't being addressed?
Why do the English believe the HEC isn't good for them?
Why do they believe it's not good for rugby?
Same for the French - are their problems different to those of the English?

Obviously if the WISI nations are happy with the status quo, they're not going to have proposals to change it.

I still think the simplest solution for the HC is that all parties agree to the number of teams to represented but each of the six nation countries, then each country based on the other tournaments their teams are involved in pick their best teams.

Simple. No confusion.

If it is going to be 20 clubs then there is enough scope for England 6 teams, France 6 teams, Ireland 3 teams, Wales 3 teams, Scotland 2 teams, Italy 2 teams.

The qualifying process is far too complex currently.

If each Union knows how many teams of theirs qualify then they know how their finances and organisational requirements will be.

Biltong that makes 22 does it not?

Qualifying process right now is simple

Each union has a set number of places and then decides its own qualification criteria.

In my view that is a fair spread, it covers the "reasons" and "goals" of what the tournament is supposed to.

For participation by the six nation countries, for getting the top teams involved and for it to make money.

Each country must then sort out their domestic shortfalls or challenges to ensure they provide quality teams for the competition

TJ wrote:
Biltong that makes 22 does it not?

Qualifying process right now is simple

Each union has a set number of places and then decides its own qualification criteria.

yeah, you're right, my maths aren't up to scratch today.

I am not so sure it is that simple currently TJ, you have an Amoin cup winner, auto qualifying for finalists of the HC, top 6 of this and that.

Let each country enter their top teams by the numbers agreed upon.

Biltong wrote:

Each country must then sort out their domestic shortfalls or challenges to ensure they provide quality teams for the competition

Which is what the Scots / Irish/ welsh/ italians all have done by concentrating their talent into a small number of teams. they have all adapted their national setups to suit modern day rugby. England have not and now consider themselves disadvantaged. So rather than putting their own house in order they want to disadvantage others instead

TJ wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Each country must then sort out their domestic shortfalls or challenges to ensure they provide quality teams for the competition

Which is what the Scots / Irish/ welsh/ italians all have done by concentrating their talent into a small number of teams. they have all adapted their national setups to suit modern day rugby. England have not and now consider themselves disadvantaged. So rather than putting their own house in order they want to disadvantage others instead

Well that's why it shouldn't become a HC problem.

Once England knows how many teams they can enter it is up to them to enter those teams, whether they want to go regional, remain club or whatever should have no bearing on the HC.

Indeed Biltong. However the PRL want to reduce the number of Scots / Italian / Iriush / Welsh teams ( without any reduction themselves) and dictate how these places are decided

Well I can't see how the PRL can decide how you qualify.
if you depict the number of teams per country, then effectively you can't also say who plays.

The problem the PRL has is the Rabo12 is played by 4 nations, so either you say top 6 or top 8 of the Rabo, or you say each country gets a number.

You can't have it both ways.

Biltong - at the moment Irish have 3 places, Welsh 3. Scots 2 and Italian 2. Scots and Italy have created two teams to utilise their places. Ireland and Wales use the rabo positions to decide which 3 of their 4 teams qualify.

TJ wrote:

AlastairW wrote:What wrong doing? How is wanting to negotiate wrong doing?

Wrongdoing. negotiating to sell tvs right you do not have with no consultation with other affected and presenting this as a fait acompli. Insisting on changes that are to 4 unions disadvantage and 2 unions advantage and doing so with a threat.

where have they shown any signs of wanting to negotiate? What they have done is said - this is what we want take it of leave it. The idea that of the 6 places they offer to the irish / welsh / Italians / Scots combined could be ameliorated by have one guaranteed place for each nation is a joke. I tiny improvement in a risible offer is not a serious negotiation.

If reducing the number of teams is paramount and so is reducing the number of poor teams then why can the PRL not lose a place as well?

So you see the ERC in the same light...right? They sold TV rights to Sky that they don't own (they have the rights up until 2014 and the end of the current participation agreement. They assumed that the European rights would be theirs to control. The PRL assumed that they would control them as the RFU agreement gives them control of the the other club right.

Why won't the the English and French lose places? Because they don't think they need to to get the other parties to agree. It's that simple. If that's what it takes to reach an agreement they will decide if they're willing to do it.

Bluesman, illegalities was not the RFU wording. They just said they haven't consented to the BT deal YET and they believe they need to to make it valid. It was the ERC who started chucking the word "illegal" around.

Why won't the the English and French lose places? Because they don't think they need to to get the other parties to agree. It's that simple. If that's what it takes to reach an agreement they will decide if they're willing to do it.

So thats the might is right argument again?

What do you even mean by that? I'm guessing you don't count the fact that the controlling votes in the ERC are held by those involved in the PRO12 as might is right. Or the fact they refused to negotiate a new deal without forcing the English and French to give notice?

If you mean, if you negotiate from a position of strength then you tend to get more of what you want. However reading these sort of articles the PRL aren't in a position of strength so they won't get what they want...will they? It sounds like they're going to end up with egg on their face.

Its pretty clear is it not. Using your strength to get what you want regardless of what the right or wrong is.

the pro 12 hold no votes in the ERC. the unions do

The PRO12 is a competition set up by the unions. Those unions have the controlling votes in the ERC. Those unions used those votes to refuse a renegotiation because they were happy with what they had and were too short sighted to think their greed and selfishness would put us in a situation where the English and French would pull out. Either that or they weren't fussed that they would pull out, it which what happens doesn't matter does it?

There is no 'right' other than in your (and everyone else's) head.

Hammer - why is it right that the Irish / Scots / Italians / Welsh have to do all the giving and the French and English all the taking. This is not negotiation. This is not compromise. This is not fair.

But it is the PRL way...

Of course it is negotiation.

One of two things are happening, either

1) The English more to the table and therefore have more negotiating power because the PRO12 unions will bend over for the money they bring.

2) The English don't bring more to the table, they aren't needed for a European rugby competition, the PRO12 unions won't concede a lot to retain their involvement.

We'll see what it is when the end game finishes.

The problem is now that the PRL are backed into the corner, they have gone so aggressive and thought it would work straight from the off they cannot back down, and the other unions can't back down either, the only way we reach a conclusion is with a PRL tail between legs claiming they won the fight.

thebluesmancometh wrote:The problem is now that the PRL are backed into the corner, they have gone so aggressive and thought it would work straight from the off they cannot back down, and the other unions can't back down either, the only way we reach a conclusion is with a PRL tail between legs claiming they won the fight.

How are they backed into a corner? Are you suggesting that their will be no agreement reached then? One question, if the PRO12 unions completely sell out for the extra BT money will they get the blame or will it still go the PRL?

If the Rabo nations sell out for BT money they will have sold rugby union in the NH down the river!!! But why would they the BT deal keeps everyone as they are funds wise except a huge boost to the PRL doesn't it?

IMHO the PRL are threatening rugby as a sport, and would love a situation where they have a premiership football style feeding from all the home nations and keep us all feeding at their teet!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:If the Rabo nations sell out for BT money they will have sold rugby union in the NH down the river!!! But why would they the BT deal keeps everyone as they are funds wise except a huge boost to the PRL doesn't it?

Where did you get that idea? It's not clear how much the BT will bring into Europe. The total given for the English home games (including the premiership) is £152M (including 3 years of English home games in Europe). All the European money goes into a pot and will be split between the participants. How much is it? Well one suggestion was £100M to Europe, this is highly dubious in my mind as it would be no real increase in the premiership rights. Another suggestion was around £60M, this would be similar to the amount give by Sky for 4 years and all UK rights. So there would be massively more money. The only quote from the PRL on this was that they weren't interested in the size of the slices, they wanted a bigger cake, suggesting that the money would be split as it is now but there would be more of it for everyone.

IMHO the PRL are threatening rugby as a sport, and would love a situation where they have a premiership football style feeding from all the home nations and keep us all feeding at their teet!!

No doubt they would love that. Could you blame them?

suggesting that the money would be split as it is now but there would be more of it for everyone.

One does get confused with who said what But i saw it stated the distribution would be according to a different formula when Scotland would get the same total cash but the PRL doubled amount.

Also I do not believe a significant total increase in l money - if there was then we would have been told surely?

I thought I read that the euro pot would be very similar to what Sky pays, maybe a touch more but the AP money was far bigger and the PRL clubs would be benefited massively!!!

Why would anyone agree to a situation where you just hand your opponents a massive advantage?

The PRL have said it would be a significant increase in money. Baring in mind the previous deal for the premiership (same number of games) was £54M for 3 years. So £18M per year. The new BT deal has 4 years of premiership (so £72M). That leaves £80M. Now the new illegal (ERC words not mine) Sky deal for 4 years was for around £60M for all the UK rights for 72 pool games and the knockouts. The BT deal was for 3 years and 18 pool games and (I presume) any QF played at an English home, maybe an English SF. So unless BT have given the English clubs enough money for the Premiership that they really don't need Europe, that is a massive increase in money for Europe.

As for splitting the money so there's loads more the English and the same for the Scottish, I haven't seen anything that says that. Given that no-one knows exactly how the money is split AND the negotiations for the structure of any new European competition I don't see how you could have read any official suggests of the money split. I'm guessing it was a journalist who made it up.

Hammer

Are you talking split by club and not union though? Because again the PRL will get twice as much as the Welsh or Irish!!!

As I said, if the Rabo nations decide to play hardball they just highlight that they are all moving to club rugby and demand the same spots in europe as anyone else, therefore places are taken off Ireland and England to be given to the Rabo nations, then we can consider the BT deal, sorry Illegal BT deal.

Hammer - interesting you assume the premiership games get the same money under BT but the HC games many times more?

As you say know one really knows but I am certain if it was advantageous to the Rabo teams it would have been leaked in detail - after all everything else is

TJ wrote:Hammer - interesting you assume the premiership games get the same money under BT but the HC games many times more?

As you say know one really knows but I am certain if it was advantageous to the Rabo teams it would have been leaked in detail - after all everything else is

I didn't. I said there is £80M left over for increases in the Premiership deal and the English home games. So unless the increase in the premiership is absolutely massive (and hence the PRL really don't need Europe for money) or the BT money for just the English home games will be near to what Sky are offering for ALL of them. So unless you think the non-English games are worthless in the UK the increase in money for Europe would be huge.

Bluesman, how the money would be split has not been discussed as far as I know (at least not openly). We can make guesses but that's all for now. The reason the English and French clubs get more spots has nothing to do with how many teams they have (directly). It's because that's how many were agreed to be involved. By increasing the number of sides the Welsh, Irish, etc have doesn't make them any stronger for negotiations and so wouldn't make a squat of difference.

Of course it is, the threat of England and France having to give up 2 spots each minimum to allow for more Celt Italian teams would be a huge bargaining chip.

The only way I can see these negotiations going is to a huge detriment to NH rugby or no English teams entered next season, thats the position the PRL have put themselves in!

IIRC The French have said they are not interested in a comp without the English.
So no English no French ,a Rabo cup then

The FRE/ENG clubs are content for no HEC,they have given notice. It is up to the ERC to make them want to rejoin.Keeping the status quo is not going to.

Oh dear BB is on, time to leave...

the french will compromise. Either the PRL will have to as well or there will be an HC without them

What evidense do you have that the French will comprimise?

thebluesmancometh wrote:Of course it is, the threat of England and France having to give up 2 spots each minimum to allow for more Celt Italian teams would be a huge bargaining chip.

The only way I can see these negotiations going is to a huge detriment to NH rugby or no English teams entered next season, thats the position the PRL have put themselves in!

It think you're still misunderstanding how the number of each nations representatives are determined. If the Welsh changed to having 20 teams at their top level they wouldn't automatically gain a load more spots. They would have 3 and would have to negotiate more. Now if Wales could support 20 pro teams it would suggest there is a lot of commercial interest and they should be able to negotiate more. But just increasing the number of teams doesn't mean anything.

I'm understanding everything, with a prof prem and negotiating for more places all the celt and Italian nations would be demanding more, ensuring the PRL are demanding less, thats how negotiating works!!

The PRL is insulting the game asking for everything, ensuring the Rabo nations just spend their time fighting to keep whats theirs already and not getting the chance to threaten the comp with demands of their own!!

The rule of the biggest whinger generally getting his own way is how the PRL is trying to operate!!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:I'm understanding everything, with a prof prem and negotiating for more places all the celt and Italian nations would be demanding more, ensuring the PRL are demanding less, thats how negotiating works!!

The PRL is insulting the game asking for everything, ensuring the Rabo nations just spend their time fighting to keep whats theirs already and not getting the chance to threaten the comp with demands of their own!!

The rule of the biggest whinger generally getting his own way is how the PRL is trying to operate!!!

They can demand as much as they want. But if they don't add anything it won't make any difference to the number of teams. The reason teams have a stronger negotiating point is because they bring more sponsorship money, TV money, etc. Adding more teams doesn't suddenly increase those numbers. If Welsh rugby was in a situation when they were getting sell out crowds and TV companies and sponsors wanted to be associated with those teams then they could argue for more teams. If they just added more teams if anything it would dilute their teams and worsen their situation.

All the PRL are threatening to take away is themselves. Should they be forced to play the same competition for all time? It seems to be what some people think.

I think your pretty confused...

The number of teams means nothing, it's the threat of wanting more places in euro comp, not just from the welsh but other 3 nations.

If we all gave notice first (first bargaining chip) and went for more euro spots each the PRL would be in a position to defend the status quo, yet because they have whinged the loudest they will get some sort of what they want!!!

IMHO the PRL need to be taught a lesson, and they will cave or leave, I look forward to the day it happens... egg will be on face!

I am confused. The PRO12 unions could demand extra spaces now, they would get them. I don't see why demanding even more spaces would be given more credence.

If the PRO12 unions had given notice and said we're only coming back if you give more the PRL would be laughing all the way to the English cup (maybe Franglo).

HammerofThunor wrote:..........
All the PRL are threatening to take away is themselves. Should they be forced to play the same competition for all time? It seems to be what some people think.

No - they are perfectly welcome to leave - don't let the door hit you on the way out. They would lose more than everyone else

Well then we agree, we are both happy for the PRL to leave the negotiation table with their BT deal in their hands!!

Thats the way it seems to be heading, well that or a U turn!!