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England's best XI for NZ and Ashes tests

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chrisss
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Mike Selig
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Post by gboycottnut Mon 17 Dec 2012, 11:24 am

First topic message reminder :

Looking ahead to the test series against the All Blacks after the new year and also perhaps to the first test V Australia in the summer, what is England's best XI?

Using SA's current blueprint for their test match success, I would have this XI myself if I was one of the England selectors :-

1 Cook
2 Compton
3 Trott
4 Pietersen
5 Bell
6 Root
7 Bairstow (keeper)
8 Swann
9 Anderson
10 Finn
11 Panesar

Perhaps the only worry is that the bowling attack lacks a third frontline seamer, but someone like Trott can act as the 3rd seamer if needed. Also I am a firm believer that putting a huge total of 500+ on the board makes it very hard for the opposition's batsmen to reply in kind as they would have spent almost 2+ days of hard chasing out in the field and hence would be mentally if not physically tired.

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Post by guildfordbat Mon 17 Dec 2012, 3:27 pm

Mike Selig wrote:

... By all means try out one or two players, but avoid changing the whole nature of the team ...

Bairstow isn't good enough to keep in tests yet. If Prior gets injured then it'll have to be Kieswetter or Davies.

The trying out of one or two players - but importantly no more - is very much my point.

I'll be surprised if Davies is any state to play international cricket next year so lets hope Prior and Kieswetter stay fit!


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Post by Guest Mon 17 Dec 2012, 3:39 pm

how on earth can Prior not be in that side gboycootnut? #clown


1.Cook (c)
2.Root
3.Trott
4.KP
5.Taylor
6.Bairstow
7.Prior (wk)
8.Swann
9.Broad
10.Anderson
1..Finn

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Post by Duty281 Mon 17 Dec 2012, 3:40 pm

CF wrote:how on earth can Prior not be in that side gboycootnut? #clown


1.Cook (c)
2.Root
3.Trott
4.KP
5.Taylor
6.Bairstow
7.Prior (wk)
8.Swann
9.Broad
10.Anderson
1..Finn

How on earth can Ian Bell not be in that side?

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Post by Guest Mon 17 Dec 2012, 3:44 pm

Because so he made a ton in this test, he has been in poor form in previous 12 months and i would like to see Taylor get a run in the side.

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Mon 17 Dec 2012, 4:00 pm

One player I reckon should be given a shot against NZ, possibly in place of Bresnan or Broad, is Chris Woakes.
But perhaps I'm biased

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Post by Stella Mon 17 Dec 2012, 4:06 pm

My squad for NZ

Cook
Compton
Trott
Pietersen
Bell
Root
Taylor

Prior
Bairstow

Swann/Tredwell
Panaser

Woakes
Broad
Anderson
Finn
Onions
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Post by Shelsey93 Mon 17 Dec 2012, 4:10 pm

Stella wrote:My squad for NZ

Cook
Compton
Trott
Pietersen
Bell
Root
Taylor

Prior
Bairstow

Swann/Tredwell
Panaser

Woakes
Broad
Anderson
Finn
Onions

Snap

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Post by Carrotdude Mon 17 Dec 2012, 4:13 pm

Cook
Compton
Trott
KP
Bell
Root
Prior
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Finn

First choice for NZ I would think. If you need a second spinner Panesar comes in for Broad. I would have Onions as first reserve seamer and Meaker as second back up although I guess Bresnan will still get the nod for that role even though I wouldn't have him in the squad at all personally.

As for the batting, Compton has done enough to have the chance in the NZ series. If he does badly then Root will move up to replace him and Bairstow can come in at number 6. I think its a little harsh on Bairstow to have been bumped out of the number 6 role firstly by Patel and then by Root, although the latter's selection proved to be a very good one.

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Post by chrisss Mon 17 Dec 2012, 4:26 pm

dummy_half wrote:
Mike Selig wrote:I think England should be wary of too much rotation/tinkering. We saw against the West Indies what it can lead to... a natural loss of intensity and focus when you treat a test as a practice match.

By all means try out one or two players, but avoid changing the whole nature of the team.

This notion that England's reserve seamers are as good as most teams first XI seamers is a dangerous assumption - they may be potentially, but I wouldn't want to go beyond that...

Bairstow isn't good enough to keep in tests yet. If Prior gets injured then it'll have to be Kieswetter or Davies.

To be honest, I think between having two inexperienced batsmen (since two of Compton, Root and Bairstow are likely to play) and a couple (Trott and Bell) who've been in scratchy form for a while, we probably shouldn't do too much experimenting with the batting line-up for the two NZ series.

As for the reserve seamers, I think we've fallen back a bit over the last year - a year ago we had Anderson, Broad and Bresnan with Finn and Onions as proven back-up and Tremlett injured. Now Bresnan has faded, Broad is currently unfit and struggling for form and Finn is continuing to be a bit fragile (very good when fit, but he's getting like Bryan Robson - one week in the side then a month off), while Tremlett is being written off. Dernbach has shown repeatedly at ODI level that he isn't good enough to step up, while Meaker is unproven and Woakes hasn't really come on as hoped over the last couple of years. So we're down to Anderson as proven top quality and picking two out of three of Finn, Broad and Onions based on fitness and form.

That's very harsh on Woakes- he only played 8 games last season due to injury, but he averaged 71 with the bat and 25 with the ball. If it was up to me, he'd definitely be in the NZ test squad. (and playing domestic cricket in NZ certainly can't be hurting his chances...)


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Post by Mad for Chelsea Mon 17 Dec 2012, 4:31 pm

at the moment, squad for NZ:

batsmen:
Cook, Compton, Trott, KP, Bell, Root, Bairstow will all go you'd think. that probably leaves one spot (assuming Bairstow is also seen as reserve keeper, which I think he is). Patel? didn't really convince in his chances. Morgan? went to India, played one warm-up in which he did pretty well. Could be. Taylor is the obvious other option. May depend on how well Morgan plays in the limited overs in India.

Prior goes as keeper, with Bairstow as match day back-up, probably.

Swann and Panesar will go, England won't take three spinners.

seamers: Anderson, Finn, Broad (the latter two if fit). I suspect Bresnan still makes it, and Onions completes the set. Other options are of course Woakes and Harris.

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Post by Shelsey93 Mon 17 Dec 2012, 5:09 pm

I actually think Bresnan will be dropped... he needs to bowl lots of overs for Yorkshire. Has looked totally off the pace really ever since the injury last winter.

And this is coming from somebody who's usually very conservative on selection matters.

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Post by Carrotdude Mon 17 Dec 2012, 5:41 pm

I'm pretty sure, based on this series selection, that Meaker is ahead of Woakes and Harris in the Test seamer bowling ranks. I'd love for him to get his debut at some point in the next year, ideally in a strong bowling line up alongside Finn and Anderson and not one ravaged by injury though!

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 17 Dec 2012, 5:41 pm

Do you think both Broad and the Breadvan would be dropped/left out though? If Broad is injured does that give them a convinent excuse to persevere with a guy whos performed miracles in the past and give him a go in more friendly conditions?
England hate Woakes, we know that already.

This is a tour were England should look to continue with as many of the current "experiemnatl" players who are still trying to prove themsleves as possible, is there room for mroe though?
Theres already 5 batsmen vying for 2 spots (although I doubt fatel will go after again being useless in supposedly favourabvle conditions), and then Finn Meaker and Onions still snuffling round the bowling.
England have 2 spinners plus a reserve, so it would be a mssive surprise if they took a young one on the tour unless Swann is rested...even then they are highly unlikley to pick two.
Id expect a fairly standard line up of 6 proper batsmen (of course Bell will play) , Prior, Anderson and Swann + 2 seamers

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Post by Carrotdude Mon 17 Dec 2012, 5:49 pm

Woakes for me will be better at Test matches than the shorter stuff due to his pace, he's quite similar to Bresnan I suppose with the batting that he offers being better than Tim's he could quite happily bat at 7 if we ever wanted 5 bowlers again. Having said that I think 4 bowlers is enough and wouldn't want to change the formula we have been using which means you pick your 4 best bowlers so it may take Woakes a while to get himself in the side

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 17 Dec 2012, 6:16 pm

Carrotdude wrote:Woakes for me will be better at Test matches than the shorter stuff due to his pace, he's quite similar to Bresnan I suppose with the batting that he offers being better than Tim's he could quite happily bat at 7 if we ever wanted 5 bowlers again. Having said that I think 4 bowlers is enough and wouldn't want to change the formula we have been using which means you pick your 4 best bowlers so it may take Woakes a while to get himself in the side

Its ridiculous that the few chances he has been given are in limited overs, thenow are now doing the same to the lad harris sticking him in the T20 squad which is his worst format. I guess they will leanr if these are players who can be taught and if they have the attitude they are looking for, but to judge them on what they produce in formats they are ill fitted to just seems wrong.
It also continues to show how England treat limited overs as a secondary discilpline, a place for the kids to have a laugh and see if they are up to proper cricket.

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Post by ShankyCricket Mon 17 Dec 2012, 8:01 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Our best team at the moment for me is:

Cook, Compton, Trott, KP, Bell, Root, Prior, Swann, Broad, Finn and Anderson.

When we play 2 spinners, Panesar in for Broad.

yup Very Happy
Broad? Really not sure about that. Onions or Meaker for Broad. The rest is fine.

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Post by ShankyCricket Mon 17 Dec 2012, 8:03 pm

Fists of Fury wrote:Dear Lord this is an awful thread...

Prior is a far, far better batsman than Bairstow. On what basis are you suggesting otherwise?
Its really your mistake if you expect GBoycottnut's threads to be anything other than a wind up.

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Post by king_carlos Sun 06 Jan 2013, 12:51 pm

1.Cooky
2.Compton ... ney
3.Trotty
4.KP... ey
5.Belly
6.Rooty
7.Priory
8.Swanny
9.Jimmy
10.Finny
11.Onions ... ey

Add to that Morgan, Bairstow, Broad, Bresnan and Panesar to make up the squad.

Whilst I'm actually a big fan of Bresnan, though don't deny he's out of form, I'd be tempted to take one of Meaker, Woakes or Harris along in his stead and let him have a proper pre-season with Yorkshire. Since his elbow operation he just hasn't looked the same bowler and a proper few months preparing for the English season could do him the world of good IMO. He could also return for the ODI's if required.

I'd also be tempted to let Root open and have Compton at 6 as I think it would suit their respective skills better.

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Post by gboycottnut Sun 06 Jan 2013, 1:09 pm

king_carlos wrote:1.Cooky
2.Compton ... ney
3.Trotty
4.KP... ey
5.Belly
6.Rooty
7.Priory
8.Swanny
9.Jimmy
10.Finny
11.Onions ... ey

Add to that Morgan, Bairstow, Broad, Bresnan and Panesar to make up the squad.

Whilst I'm actually a big fan of Bresnan, though don't deny he's out of form, I'd be tempted to take one of Meaker, Woakes or Harris along in his stead and let him have a proper pre-season with Yorkshire. Since his elbow operation he just hasn't looked the same bowler and a proper few months preparing for the English season could do him the world of good IMO. He could also return for the ODI's if required.

I'd also be tempted to let Root open and have Compton at 6 as I think it would suit their respective skills better.

Well they persisted with Compton in all 3 tests V India as an opener so I don't think that they will change V an All Blacks team which is likely to have dangerous pace bowlers Neil Wagner and Trent Bolt as part of a 5 man bowling attack.

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Post by king_carlos Sun 06 Jan 2013, 1:18 pm

I don't reckon they'll realistically go for Root opening boycs. Just throwing it out there as Compton has proven himself as a quality middle order player and Root an opener in county cricket.

The other thing I like with Cook, Root and Trott at 123 is that it should mean that the new ball and opening bowlers have been seen off by the time KP, Bell and Compton had to come in - a very dangerous prospect!

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Post by gboycottnut Sun 06 Jan 2013, 1:37 pm

king_carlos wrote:I don't reckon they'll realistically go for Root opening boycs. Just throwing it out there as Compton has proven himself as a quality middle order player and Root an opener in county cricket.

The other thing I like with Cook, Root and Trott at 123 is that it should mean that the new ball and opening bowlers have been seen off by the time KP, Bell and Compton had to come in - a very dangerous prospect!

Looking a bit ahead to the ashes, the Aussies are likely to play 4 pace bowlers like in their 3rd test win over Sri Lanka. With a 4 man pace attack of Starc, Bird, Sid Viscious and Mitchell Johnson waiting to be unleashed by their captain to cause terror and mayhem upon the England batsmen, what then is England's best batting order to combat and negate this powerful pace attack?

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Post by king_carlos Sun 06 Jan 2013, 1:45 pm

Looking forward to the Ashes I'd say Root has a very good reputation against pace bowling. His temperament would also mean he could cope well with the roughing up of less experienced players that the Aussies will inevitably try.

It's not just a case of Root being a better opener for me though, it would suit the whole team better I reckon. As said Cook, Root and Trott should see of the new ball and opening bowlers about as well as any top three in the world, leaving KP, Bell and Compton in their element to play some strokes and attack.

I would question whether Aus will go in with a 4 man pace attack though, especially with Watson apparently bowling a bit more. England's biggest strength over Oz are our spinners so it'd be foolish to not expect turning tracks, therefore Aus wont risk leaving Lyon out unless they're sure he isn't suited.

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Post by gboycottnut Sun 06 Jan 2013, 1:49 pm

king_carlos wrote:Looking forward to the Ashes I'd say Root has a very good reputation against pace bowling. His temperament would also mean he could cope well with the roughing up of less experienced players that the Aussies will inevitably try.

It's not just a case of Root being a better opener for me though, it would suit the whole team better I reckon. As said Cook, Root and Trott should see of the new ball and opening bowlers about as well as any top three in the world, leaving KP, Bell and Compton in their element to play some strokes and attack.

I would question whether Aus will go in with a 4 man pace attack though, especially with Watson apparently bowling a bit more. England's biggest strength over Oz are our spinners so it'd be foolish to not expect turning tracks, therefore Aus wont risk leaving Lyon out unless they're sure he isn't suited.

Well as the Aussies look short of experienced batsmen now that Ponting and Hussey won't be playing, I don't think the Aussies will use Watson as an all-rounder but only as a specialist batsman who bats at 4 or 5. They can use their current keeper Matthew Wade at 6 and thus allow for the playing of 5 frontline bowlers from 7 to 11 meaning that 4 pacers and a specialist spinner can be selected in the same XI.

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Post by king_carlos Sun 06 Jan 2013, 2:41 pm

I'd be very surprised if they went in with only 5 frontline batsmen.

1.Warner 2.Cowan 3.Hughes 4.Clarke 5.Watson 6.Khawajha 7.Wade 8.Johnson/Starc 9.Siddle 10.Patinson 11.Lyon

Currently that's what I'd expect Aus to go with come the first test. Bird may have had a very good test but given that they've played more I'd expect Starc, Pattinson and maybe Cummins above him in the pecking order of youngsters.

Personally I think they should go with David Hussey or Chris Rogers at 6 for the next two series to strengthen the batting and add some experience to the side. I also think Hilfenhaus shouldn't be discounted as his bowling suits English conditions very well.

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Post by Jetty Wed 09 Jan 2013, 4:43 am

VTR wrote:Can't see Anderson being happy with a rest vs New Zealand. He's got Botham's record in his sights, I'm sure he wants to get that and there will surely be some cheap wickets on offer.

Without looking up the stats I'd imagine he must average something like 15 vs. NZ?

Overall 24.07. He was just coming back into the team in NZ when Harmison and Hoggard were dropped so he will want to improve on 35.37. Yes I agree I don't want him rested. He is best when he has lots of overs under his belt. Hopefully he will get to 300 wickets in New Zealand. I don't think the wickets will be cheap, I imagine it will be quite flat pitches out there and NZ likely to be full strength with Ryder, Vettori, Taylor and Southee coming back.

I was reading that Tremlett was being taken out to India in a non-playing capacity during these ODIs and probably working on his bowling and have a feeling that he will be in the Test squad for New Zealand otherwise why would they take him out to India when he could be with Surrey in South Africa for the pre-season.

We need to forget about tails and pick the best bowlers. We had Finn, Anderson and Panesar in Kolkata and we won.

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Post by gboycottnut Thu 10 Jan 2013, 12:03 pm

Jetty wrote:
VTR wrote:Can't see Anderson being happy with a rest vs New Zealand. He's got Botham's record in his sights, I'm sure he wants to get that and there will surely be some cheap wickets on offer.

Without looking up the stats I'd imagine he must average something like 15 vs. NZ?

Overall 24.07. He was just coming back into the team in NZ when Harmison and Hoggard were dropped so he will want to improve on 35.37. Yes I agree I don't want him rested. He is best when he has lots of overs under his belt. Hopefully he will get to 300 wickets in New Zealand. I don't think the wickets will be cheap, I imagine it will be quite flat pitches out there and NZ likely to be full strength with Ryder, Vettori, Taylor and Southee coming back.

I was reading that Tremlett was being taken out to India in a non-playing capacity during these ODIs and probably working on his bowling and have a feeling that he will be in the Test squad for New Zealand otherwise why would they take him out to India when he could be with Surrey in South Africa for the pre-season.

We need to forget about tails and pick the best bowlers. We had Finn, Anderson and Panesar in Kolkata and we won.

If England can get Tremlett back to the form he showed in the 2010 ashes series down under, England can suddenly become clear favourites again as they can field a very formidable looking bowling unit of Anderson, Finn, Tremlett, Broad with Swann as the spinner. So whilst Anderson provides the swing movement off the air, the 3 tall 6ft 5 plus bowlers can use their height to get as much seam movement of the wicket and to use their height advantage to also make things very awkward for the Aussie batsmen with in particular Phil blocked off Hughes now as their key number 3 batsman.

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