Could a year with no European Cup, be the making of the Pro 12?

I'm thinking currently that an agreement on Europe will not be reach by the end of next season, and all Unoins wil have a year without European competation, while talks continue on new deal. (each letting the time laspe to show that they are serious in thier demands, stances etc) while I don't want to talk about the rights or wrongs of the H-cup talks, I want to focus on if this does happen could it actually be a good thing for the Pro 12?

Without European money for the year Unions would be really asking fans to get out and support their teams.

Could the Unions requesting fans to get out in numbers to ensure the teams survive these tough times caused by the English and French.
Irish teams fully focused on the League. Welsh and Scottish fans getting out to support thier teams to prove we can survice without Europe as well as Aviva or Top 14 teams.

Could one year without Europe, actually get fans behind the Pro 12 in numbers. Nothing brings Welsh and Scottish fans together better than sticking one over the English (and French too in this case), and if marketed as such could attendances really increase and we all take as much pride in the Pro 12 as the English do the Aviva and French Top 14?

Would a common enemy be enough to unite the regional devides, and bring Scottish supporters out in number? For teams to fully focus on the league?

It would give it a boost for sure. Despite the propaganda the league is on an upward curve anyway but having just the league would be good for the league in the long run.

No Europe means teams would have to cut their squads down a bit. I'd say there would be fewer foreign players and teams would be able to put out strong teams every week because of the extra free weeks on the calender. It would also allow players to have a longer summer break.

|It won't happen. there might be no PRL teams in the competition but there will be a euro cup of some sort.

If it did it would be very bad for scottish rugby. Its a lot of money to loise and more importantly games against topsides

The french said they want the HC. So the HC should be pretty safe

The French are pulling out of the HEC!

It won't be just a year as any deals in the brave new world will be for three or more years. I'd say in that time the top clubs will get a hankering after a European Super League, and that will hurt all three Leagues when it happens. However the P12 paradoxically could survive losing three or four top teams because they still have the top teams from other nations involved, whereas the French and English will just lose their best teams.

Irrespective of the HEC the P12 could expand to become the P14 without the attrition of the T14, and this is an opportunity to actively recruit a couple of pro teams sponsored by some Russian oligarchs!

The Rabo nations should start preparing for life without the HEC now. They need to help develop the Pro 12 so the HEC money becomes less important.

Probably not a bad idea to take a two-three year break. It's getting kinda boring with Pro 12 clubs winning it all the time.

I think a year without Euro Cups would make the unions turn the regions into less loss making enties. Right now the unions are focused more on keeping players at home or coming back home rather then being professionally sustainable.

I think if the Rabo Unions have to turn their teams into good business we might see the unions more actively involved in advertising their teams.

It would be seen as the premium competition in Europe imo.

EDIT: Get London Welsh and a strenghtenned London Scottish (or otherwise London Irish) in it and you get 14 teams playing across 5 countries, who needs HEC?

Personally, while I don't want to get into a H-cup debate (again) all unions have said they want all the other Unions involved.

But I see a stalemate being reached and both sides saying you have the summer of next year to accept it, waiting for the other to break first as the deadline approaches, both sides will prepare for a year without Europe as neiter will break.

The question would it actually be good for pro 12 if it did happen.

Would Welsh fans get behind the regions?
Would it see the infighting in Wales end, due to coming together in a crisis?
Would attendances leap in Scotland and Wales?
Would the Welsh fans who are apathetic to the league, suddenly become patriotic about it, when it can be said to be in danger due to the English?

Kingshu wrote:Would Welsh fans get behind the regions?

I doubt that it would. I would hazard a guess at the regions having a similar over all attendance in the Rabo, but maybe a little bit bigger for the visit of the Irish provinces, because IMO the people who are interested in rugby in Wales attend games already, and the rest of the public only want to go to games to say 'I was there'.

Kingshu wrote:Would it see the infighting in Wales end, due to coming together in a crisis?

I doubt that too. It would probably cause even more calls from the 'disenfranchised' to remove the regions and go back to the 'good old days'. And to be fair without the HEC in place the argument would be a heap stronger too.

Kingshu wrote:Would attendances leap in Scotland and Wales?

See arguement 1

Kingshu wrote:Would the Welsh fans who are apathetic to the league, suddenly become patriotic about it, when it can be said to be in danger due to the English?

I think it would become even more divided in Wales the pro and anti regional lot will both be using it to try and push their case more.

All in all I think a break from the HEC would do the Italians and Irish sides some good, as with one target to aim for they could really make big strides. However I also think it would be the start of the end for the Welsh and Scottish sides.

A good question and I would hope so rather than the sometimes unhealthy preoccupation with the HC but seemingly as most of the R12 sides were created with European competition in mind to then to focus on a "domestic" competition would be disappointment?
Most of the fans clearly prefer their local derbies, given the Xmas ticketing so far and that won't change even if there are no other games? No matter what anyone says welsh and Scots fans have clearly not bought into artificial imaginary regions in anything like enough numbers and cannot see what promotion of the R12 would change that.

Suggest all R12 fans should travel to south west France and watch a T14 club league match down there to appreciate what the R12 will always struggle to achieve......and the AP could learn lessons too.

Don't know why you always bring Scots into "artificial imaginary regions"

With Professionalism Scotland decided the best solution would be to create four new franchises based largely on the existing regions of the game the 4 former District Unions in Scotland same way Ireland did with the Provinces,(Border Reivers, Edinburgh, Caledonia Reds and Glasgow Warriors) ok only 2 of them now survive.

But Edinburgh and Glasgow have played since 1872, surley thats enough time to settle them in with some history? Can't really say Scotland went with artificial imaginary regions.

Don't bother Recwatcher. This is a Rabies P12 circle-jerk, anyone that has the pure audacity to suggest that maybe the AP or T14 might possibly do anyting better has pitchforks rattled at them.

Fair enough Kingshu but given the number of rugby clubs in both cities (I know Edinburgh pretty well) why is the support so paltry? The fixture might have been around a long time but in itself is not a guiding light for the game in Scotland. The border region was always going to be dead duck given the allegiances to the historic clubs in the area.

Recwatcher wrote:Fair enough Kingshu but given the number of rugby clubs in both cities (I know Edinburgh pretty well) why is the support so paltry? The fixture might have been around a long time but in itself is not a guiding light for the game in Scotland. The border region was always going to be dead duck given the allegiances to the historic clubs in the area.

To be fair when you consider how poor supported the Scottish international side is, the two sides get pretty good attendances.

Recwatcher wrote:Fair enough Kingshu but given the number of rugby clubs in both cities (I know Edinburgh pretty well) why is the support so paltry? The fixture might have been around a long time but in itself is not a guiding light for the game in Scotland. The border region was always going to be dead duck given the allegiances to the historic clubs in the area.

I've asked myself that, where Rugby may be a long way behind football, the two cities are big enough that they should still attract decent crowds.

Scottish Claymores an old American Football team with games between Glasgow and Edinburgh had an average attendance over their 10-season history of 11,306.

There is no way that an American football club in Scotland should get an average attendance that the two Scottish Rugby teams look at with envy

If this were to happen would there be a case for the Rabo to claim itself as the premium euro tournament, and as such structure an inter cup tournament and look for backing from Heineken (who would be looking for a new tourny to sponsor)

No HC would certainly be painfull for every rabo club, but IMHO it would highlight an importance for self preservation!

Maby the Celtic Cup would be the the H-cup,
After all its the French and English that would have left, meaning the 4 pro 12 unions who didn't leave could claim the H-cup.

Recwatcher wrote:A good question and I would hope so rather than the sometimes unhealthy preoccupation with the HC but seemingly as most of the R12 sides were created with European competition in mind to then to focus on a "domestic" competition would be disappointment?
Most of the fans clearly prefer their local derbies, given the Xmas ticketing so far and that won't change even if there are no other games? No matter what anyone says welsh and Scots fans have clearly not bought into artificial imaginary regions in anything like enough numbers and cannot see what promotion of the R12 would change that.

Suggest all R12 fans should travel to south west France and watch a T14 club league match down there to appreciate what the R12 will always struggle to achieve......and the AP could learn lessons too.

The T14 is much older though. Rivalries have developed over decades. You need history to develop rivalries and the rabo doesn't have much history. Thats one thing that cannot be bought. The rabo league is still in its early development stage but you can see cross border rivalries developing already.

I think people are expecting too much too soon.

profitus

How will the Rabo create rivalries though if noone gets to go and see the away games!! Most Rabo teams get double or barely triple numbers in away support, except where a flight or double figure hour drive isn't needed!!!

IMHO welsh fans will never develop a rivalry with Scot, Italian or Irish clubs, and instead will continue to just develop their hatred for the prem club that doesn't conform to regionalism as well as they should/the other regions/the WRU/6N rivals!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:profitus

How will the Rabo create rivalries though if noone gets to go and see the away games!! Most Rabo teams get double or barely triple numbers in away support, except where a flight or double figure hour drive isn't needed!!!

IMHO welsh fans will never develop a rivalry with Scot, Italian or Irish clubs, and instead will continue to just develop their hatred for the prem club that doesn't conform to regionalism as well as they should/the other regions/the WRU/6N rivals!!

The Ospreys have created rivalries already especially between themselves, Munster and Leinster.

Nothing wrong with the Rabo, it only a young league,it's take's time to find it's identity

Optimistic spin
- Pro12 would be the largest multi-nation union competition
- Less games would mean more elite players playing in pro12 games
- teams could cut back on squad sizes and save some money

Pessimistic spin
- Elite players might leave the pro12 for bigger paychecks elsewhere
- season ticket sales would drop as fans can just show up on the day and get a ticket at the gate. this hits the lumpsum that clubs take in at the end of each season in renewals and severely hits the offseason cashflows/viability
- Welsh decide to scrap regions, just focus on semi-pro club level meaning their internationals migrate for salaried work in England/UK
- Without HC revenue percentage but continued travel expenses and reduced revenue effectively ends Italian professional rugby.
- Similar for Scottish clubs, reduced revenue might mean that they get raided by teams south of the border.
- Influx of Welsh/Scot/Italian and Irish into Jeff and Top14, because all are EU and can't be discriminated/marginalised/rationed, pushes developing English and French youth players back into reserve matches and A games.
- All Unions would be in line to suffer potentially, then national teams would suffer, then true fans of Test matches would suffer. But BT Vision and the club owners for Jeff & Top14 would milk it for all it's worth.

Profitus

Having been to home and away Osprey v Leinster/Munster games I beg to differ, there were around 200 (generous) O's fans at Thomond and those I spoke to were there for other reasons!

Leinster and Munster are biggar draws for Welsh crowds, but there is certainly no rivaly!

O's started to develop a Leicester rivalry but with losing a lot of their stars, and playing in different comps that seems to have dissapated.