Scotland squad for the 6 Nations

First topic message reminder :

Scotland squad for training camp in Glasgow (January 20-23) ahead of RBS 6 Nations Championship:

Backs: Peter Murchie*, Stuart Hogg, Sean Maitland*, Tommy Seymour*, Sean Lamont (all Glasgow Warriors), Tim Visser (Edinburgh Rugby), Max Evans (Castres), Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby), Alex Dunbar* Peter Horne*, Duncan Weir, Ruaridh Jackson (all Glasgow Warriors), Tom Heathcote (Bath Rugby), Henry Pyrgos, Sean Kennedy* (both Glasgow Warriors) and Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby).

Forwards: Alasdair Dickinson (Sale Sharks), Ryan Grant, Dougie Hall, Pat MacArthur* (all Glasgow Warriors), Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby), Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors), Geoff Cross (Edinburgh Rugby), Moray Low, Alastair Kellock (both Glasgow Warriors), Richie Gray (Sale Sharks), Jim Hamilton (Gloucester), Grant Gilchrist* (Edinburgh Rugby), Kelly Brown (Saracens), Robert Harley, Ryan Wilson* (both Glasgow Warriors), Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier), David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby), Richie Vernon (Sale Sharks), Chris Fusaro* (Glasgow Warriors).

* = Uncapped.

Invited to be with the squad as they recover from injury: Chris Cusiter, John Barclay and Jon Welsh (all Glasgow Warriors) Nick De Luca and Ross Rennie (both Edinburgh Rugby) and Scott Lawson (London Irish).

Note to editors: Alasdair Strokosch (Perpignan) will miss the camp for family reasons as his wife is expecting their second child.

Nice article, if he does well could prove to be a favourite with the fans. You ever know, perhaps this job will turn out to be his calling and he'll stay on for a while?

1 - Grant
2 - Ford
3 - Murray
4 - Hamilton
5 - Kellock
6 - Harley
7 - Brown
8 - Beattie

9 - Laidlaw
10 - Jackson
11 - Visser
12 - Scott
13 - Grove
14 - Maitland
15 - Hogg

16 - MacArthur
17 - Reid
18 - Low
19 - Gray
20 - Denton
21 - Pyrgos
22 - Weir
23 - Lamont

Not sure Weir is ready for a call up yet. He looked poor last night tbh. Even missed 2 penalties (one was from 50m so maybe out his range right enough ) and more importantly missed a couple of vital tackles. Might have to go for the Heathcote guy on the bench .

who are you and what have you done with schizoid?

1. Grant
2. Hall
3. Murray
4. Gray
5. Kellock
6. Harley
7. Brown
8. Beattie

9. Pyrgos
10. Jackson
11. Visser
12. Scott
13. Grove
14. Maitland
15. Hogg

16. MacArthur
17. Reid
18. Low
19. Hamilton
20. Denton
21. Laidlaw
22. Lamont
23. Tonks

Sticking my neck out before the Edinburgh match...

I think that we're all missing the bigger and more important point from this thread: isn't it "You're Scott Johnson, whom do you pick?".

Where's Lynne Truss when you need her?

Imperialbigdave wrote:who are you and what have you done with schizoid?

Back on the lithium and prozac mate

Looks like Johnson may go anti-robinson and select on 'form and fitness, not friendship'. Does this remind anyone of what a previous coach stated ?

IanBru wrote:1. Grant
2. Hall
3. Murray
4. Gray
5. Kellock
6. Harley
7. Brown
8. Beattie

9. Pyrgos
10. Jackson
11. Visser
12. Scott
13. Grove
14. Maitland
15. Hogg

16. MacArthur
17. Reid
18. Low
19. Hamilton
20. Denton
21. Laidlaw
22. Lamont
23. Tonks

Sticking my neck out before the Edinburgh match...

Like the look of this selection Ian

Just watched the Edinburgh game and although they lost (what's new?) I thought Matt Scott played really well, Visser looked a lot better in defence, Tonks was very good and Denton started coming on to a game as the match wore on. Dougie Fife might have earned himself a squad place as well, he'll certainly play for Scotland A this season.

Fifes definately earned a place in the A team for being the only Edinburgh winger who isnt a complete liability.

Matt Scott was superb. Cairnsy was strong defensively and had a cracking break which was great to see. Suspect the 6n will be too soon though.

forward pass aside, Denton had a strong game. Tonks too, again1

I think Fife is definitely a promising youngstster and generally agree he should be in the A team at least. Still would put Beattie and Wilson first above Denton. Matt Scott is stitching his name into the Scotland 12 shirt, Cairns sounds like he had a good game too. I still think Visser should be bench and Seymour should be on the pitch as he's had the better form lately. So my 15 would look something like this at this point.

1. Grant
2. Hall
3. Murray
4. Gray
5. Kellock
6. Brown
7. Harley
8. Beattie

9. Pyrgos
10. Jackson

11. Seymour
12. Scott
13. Grove
14. Maitland
15. Hogg

Bench
16. McArthur
17. Low
18. Reid
19. Hamilton
20. Wilson
21. Heathcote
22. Laidlaw
23. Visser

Squad's announced tomorrow afternoon. I'd like to see:

Props: Murray, Low, Welsh, Grant, Reid
Hooker: MacArthur, Ford, Hall
Second-Rows: Gilchrist, Gray, Swinson, Hamilton, McKenzie
Back-Rows: Denton, Harley, Brown, Fusaro, Wilson, Beattie, Rennie, Barclay
Half-Backs: Pyrgos, Cusiter, Laidlaw, Heathcote, Weir
Centres: Scott, Dunbar, Cairns, Grove
Back-Three: Hogg, Maitland, Visser, Tonks, Lamont, Fife

123456789
So you want to select three 2nd rows who are playing in packs wihch are being mullered week after week in their league and in Europe? (Gray, Mckenzie and Glichrist) and one in Swinson who is uncapped and is a 4 not a 5. Would you play him instead of Gray who also plays 4?
If we started against England with Gray and Glichrist i fear we would be absolutely annhilated in the tight. Gray would be loitering amongst the centres and Gilchrist would be steam rollered by the England pack as he is most weeks when playing for Edinburgh.

I am not against picking players from poorly performing teams as we only have two pro teams, but surely they must at least be performing higher than the poor level of the team? Having watched both 1872 matches and the Munster game today i didnt see anything to inidcate that Gilchrist is rising above the poor Edinburg forward play, or is close to being an intenational class player, yet.

I think someone like Tonks is in with a shout as he manges to look good, genrally, in a poor team. The same cannot be said , IMHO, for Gilchrist.

sensisball wrote:123456789
So you want to select three 2nd rows who are playing in packs wihch are being mullered week after week in their league and in Europe? (Gray, Mckenzie and Glichrist) and one in Swinson who is uncapped and is a 4 not a 5. Would you play him instead of Gray who also plays 4?
If we started against England with Gray and Glichrist i fear we would be absolutely annhilated in the tight. Gray would be loitering amongst the centres and Gilchrist would be steam rollered by the England pack as he is most weeks when playing for Edinburgh.

I am not against picking players from poorly performing teams as we only have two pro teams, but surely they must at least be performing higher than the poor level of the team? Having watched both 1872 matches and the Munster game today i didnt see anything to inidcate that Gilchrist is rising above the poor Edinburg forward play, or is close to being an intenational class player, yet.

I think someone like Tonks is in with a shout as he manges to look good, genrally, in a poor team. The same cannot be said , IMHO, for Gilchrist.

So Kellock who seems to suffer from ruckophobia would cope better than Gilchrist, I'd pick Gray and Hamilton to start with Gilchrist on the bench. Any of the games I've seen Swinson and McKenzie play in they've played well and surely it would be better for Gilchrist to experience the time in the squad than Kellock. My starting XV would be:

1. Grant
2. Ford
3. Murray
4. Gray
5. Hamilton
6. Brown
7. Fusaro
8. Beattie
9. Cusiter (if fit,Pyrgos if not)
10. Weir
11. Maitland
12. Scott
13. Grove (Cairns if he's ready)
14. Visser
15. Hogg

If Johnson picks, Maitland, Tonks, Beattie, Heathcote, Grant, Fife, Cairns and Grove I'll be very happy. If he wacks in some decent surprise players that would be great too, ie Hines returning would be epic! If he leaves out Maitland, Tonks, Beattie or Heathcote I'll be pretty gutted to be honest. Beattie and Tonks especially.

Johnson suggested in the sunday times this morning that he sees laidlaw as a 9, and that jackson is his preferred 10.

Think rennie, barclay and fusaro are all injured.

I know the announcement for the pre-6 Nations training camp is tomorrow, but is that the same as the actual 36-man squad? In any case, this is my squad, plus a few provisional players to train at St Andrews.

Quite a good way of sidestepping the issue says me.

36-man Squad:
Props: Grant, Murray, Reid, Low, Dickinson
Hooker: Hall, MacArthur, Ford
Second-Rows: Gray, Kellock, Hamilton, Swinson
Back-Rows: Beattie, Harley, Brown, Denton, Grant, Strokosch, Wilson, Fusaro
Half-Backs: Pyrgos, Laidlaw, Jackson, Heathcote, Weir
Centres: Scott, Grove, Dunbar, Lamont, Cairns
Back-Three: Visser, Maitland, Hogg, Tonks, Seymour, Fife

Also to train at St Andrews: Hislop, Ryder, Gilchrist, Rennie, Wight, Fife

Johnson says: "I am not going to lie here. We have made a decision with Greig where we see him as a nine who can play 10 rather than a 10 who can play nine. It's important for him to know that.

"One thing I will say about Greig Laidlaw is he is one hell of a kid and one hell of a competitor. The fact is we'd like to see him in that squad and he adds value to that team and we're trying to find where that is." - Herald Scotland 13/1/2012

hmm I really don't know... I think Pyrgos could be a lot better. Then again, Laidlaw with more game time could turn out to be good at 9. But I think his performances at 9 last few weeks were lacking conviction.

As for jackson at 10, I think the papers are just speculating there. It would seem the most obvious choice as Jackson has played several games at 10, keping weir on the bench. But I think Heathcote could be their choice. If not he'll get a go vs Italy or be on the bench for England game.

Johnson should really just try a few different things out, nothing too drastic but just little tweaks here and there.

I saw elsewhere a suggestion of Heathcote at 12 and it got me thinking if we could go for a set-up of: 10. Weir, 12. Heathcote, 13. Scott, it may lead to less errors, I'm not necessarily in favour of it but it seemed an interesting idea, with Laidlaw at nine we could have an excellent kicking game with a lot of vision and creativity in the back line, if we had three creative players they could spot lines ran by Visser, Maitland and Hogg. However the disadvantages are also obvious, they may be defensively weak (the thought of Tuilagi against inexperienced centres is scary) and it's not a very experienced midfield.

I think we need someone of Grove's defensive caliber on Feb 2nd, combine this with his attacking ability and we'll have a reasonable centre pairing. I think Cairns may feature towards the end of the 6N if he carries on an upward curve.

I'd say go with Jackson, but have Heathcote very much ready on the bench if it goes jubblies up at half time. I'm not convinced by Laidlaw atm, he's not had good games for Edinburgh and think he needs time to get his head back in it imo.

Yes Jackson struggles with kicking, but I think he's currently the better option and would like to see him providing the backs with good ball. Haven't seen enough of Heathcote really but I think he could do well, but keep him at FH for now.

NeilyBroon wrote:I think we need someone of Grove's defensive caliber on Feb 2nd, combine this with his attacking ability and we'll have a reasonable centre pairing. I think Cairns may feature towards the end of the 6N if he carries on an upward curve.

I'd say go with Jackson, but have Heathcote very much ready on the bench if it goes jubblies up at half time. I'm not convinced by Laidlaw atm, he's not had good games for Edinburgh and think he needs time to get his head back in it imo.

Yes Jackson struggles with kicking, but I think he's currently the better option and would like to see him providing the backs with good ball. Haven't seen enough of Heathcote really but I think he could do well, but keep him at FH for now.

Jackson is in form right now - but Weir on the bench for me Laidlaw must play tho - I would have him as captain as well

It really pains me to say it, but Weir was gash on Friday. No attacking intent, poor kicking from hand and tee, and he fell off tackles like Beth Tweddle on the balance beam.

I'm happy to start with Pyrgos and Jackson, and have Laidlaw on the bench to cover both half-back positions. Tonks could also cover FH if disaster struck.

Heathcote could feature against Italy, but I want to go with known quantities and familiar pairings against England. This is the toughest test of the championship, and if we want to win the slam, we have to start here.

Slam??

We have to look at winning every game do we not? Or else you are beaten before you start

dangerous optimism, we haven't even beaten England yet!

2 Games I'll be happy
3 Games I'll be delighted
5 Games and I'll be wondering what's being slipped into my food!

How come if a Glasgow player has a bad game (Weir, Jackson, Hogg etc) they are jettisoned like snow of a feckin dyke yet when the MFL faff about at Murrayfield their duds still make the team for Twickenham (Denton, Laidlaw, Visser etc). A throwback to AR picking his wee pals probably.

Neily - winning two games cannot be enough to be happy.

TJ wrote:Neily - winning two games cannot be enough to be happy.

its all relative to recent times TJ

RDW_Scotland wrote:Slam??

TJ wrote:We have to look at winning every game do we not? Or else you are beaten before you start

Exactly, TJ.

RDW, I suppose the question I want to ask is which matches are acceptable to lose? None of them. There is not one team in the Six Nations who can beat us, and leave me thinking "Yeah, that's alright."

The logical progression from this mindset is to consider anything less than a slam as a disappointment. I saw this with Welsh supporters and thought it suppremely arrogant, but I can see their point now. I have often felt that 90% of what is wrong with Scottish rugby is in the mind - it's like we play every match with a five-point handicap because we assume we aren't going to win. When we lose a Six Nations match, there aren't any major consequences for the players, coaching staff, or the SRU as a whole.

Contrast this with the Tonga match, which we expected to win, and didn't. The result? Wholesale changes, and a union shocked to its core. I want that reaction every time we lose.

Of course, there's danger of babies and bathwater being chucked out, but we need to revolutionise the game in Scotland, and the first step is to raise our expectations.

Tj - I agree with you and we should go into every match thinking we can win, and we can, I just don't think we will. I'm not being negative saying we're likely to lose away to England and France, just realistic! If miracles happen though and we beat England then Italy then we could be going into the France game going for the gs - but that's a humongous if!

RDW - in all honesty, you're right. I suppose my original point (whenever that was...) was that the first match of the championship, which we need to win if we're serious about the championship, is not the time to be testing out experimental halfback pairings - the time is the autumn, and that ship has well and truly sailed!

Pyrgos-Jackson has been shown to work for Glasgow. Laidlaw-Jackson has never been tried.

The lock question is an interesting one.

I honestly believe that Swinson is ready for a bench place and should be there on merit over Kellock. As ever, it's not wise to throw in a whole load of new players, but I think that the focus in the run up to the England match has focussed a lot on halfback and centre.

We know what Kellock can do and whilst his (purported) leadership is certainly worth something, I am fed up with recommending players who do not have a complete core skillset for their position. Kellock is one of them. We don't need him to call the lineouts as Gray does that for Sale and Big Jim does it for the cherries.

It's a real opportunity to give Swinson some game time and we really have to take it because if either Gray or the Big Crazyhorse get injured, then we're looking a little bit short in that department. TS will make a great impact off the bench, I am absolutely confident - we just need to let him run free with 30 minutes to go once the sting has been taken out of Parling and Launchbury.

The forward I'm actually most worried about is Ford. His contributions this season have been mediocre. The best thing you can say about them is that at least they're consistent. They were largely dirge last season too. What will it take to give MacArthur a chance?

Can anyone shed some light on the serious loss of form of some key players?

Ford
laidlaw
Visser
Weir

for example are well below their best. Ford especially is worrying and hard to understand - he looks like a man drowning and Laidlaw has at times looked like a rabbit in the headlights.

Thoughts?

Ford has undroppable syndrome, I believe, and I think his lineouts haven't helped his confidence and its a downward spiral. He needs time out to work on his game, particularly lineouts.

Laidlaw again I think is confidence, the Autumn and Edinburgh have given him a pretty rubbish season. With a failing set piece in front of him he can't really do much.

Visser, consequence of Edinburgh performing poorly and not getting an attacking chance. As he's only had to defend this will have knocked his confidence because his defence has been and is shockingly bad, not even a schoolboy makes the same defensive errors as Visser.

Weir has just come back from injury really, not given much game time at Glasgow. Additionally, one of his first full games back was against an Ulster team that look set to win the Rabo, if not the Heineken. Ruan Pinaar is a very difficult player to look good against, his kicking was off and I think he just needs some time to rebuild his form.

The one I'm least worried about is Laidlaw, and I actually think he's looking much better at 10 than 9! He's just a good rugby player, highlighted by his lovely delayed pass for Fife's 2nd try yesterday - he was about to pass it but delayed it by a fraction of a second and Fife got it right on the gain line and powered his way through.

Laidlaw has struggled because 1 - the pack has been mullered regularly and 2 - there's been no coherent game plan this year. He was fantastic last year because Edinburgh had a game plan that he could buy into and pull the string, that hasn't happened this year.

Visser again is down to a poorly performing team. He's not had much ball on the front foot and we've barely strung any phases together to give him the opportunity to run in space. He's still the league's top try scorer by 3 tries so he's had a good season in general, just not so much lately. His defence was significantly better yesterday.

Final point is that I can't see what more Denton can do to justify his selection - the odd error aside I think he's been fantastic the past few games with an incredible work rate, strong defence and his usual ferocious attack. As I said on another thread - I can forgive his stupid forward pass in our 22 because he was the only player that worked hard to get there in the first place. For me he's got to start against England.

To me Ford looks like a man with mental issues - something about the way he moves and his reaction to things going wrong. depressive illness perhpas.

Too many of the players are less than their best. This hs to be sorted out. Can Johnson do it?

Personally I blame Robinson for imposing game plans that did not suit laidlaw and perhpas some others thus ruining their confidence. Weir I think has suffered from Robinson to with twice being selected and dropped without gametime

I think we can assume that Stevie Scott has been brought into the coaching staff for the sole purpose of helping Ford. Scott doesn't do anything else other than coach lineout.

Laidlaw is the most confident of the players noted above and will bounce back just fine. Again, he has had no front foot ball all season and is a testament to how inexplicably powerpuff the Edinburgh pack has managed to become.

I agree about Denton. There's an animal in there just waiting to get out. He has been targeted in games and with Rennie on the treatment table, has received little help. I am a big fan of Harley but in the absence of a genuine openside in the team, I think that our starting backrow has to be:

6. Brown, 7. Denton and 8. Beattie

With Beattie and Gray to share the big ball carrying duties (Swinson will too if he gets on) - therefore taking the pressure off Dozer a little, we start our best chance at wreaking havoc. We will need the weight in the scrum too.

Ford Actually played well against the Hairsprays and Connacht before getting injured early doors in the 1st 1862 leg at the Weage.

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:How come if a Glasgow player has a bad game (Weir, Jackson, Hogg etc) they are jettisoned like snow of a feckin dyke yet when the MFL faff about at Murrayfield their duds still make the team for Twickenham (Denton, Laidlaw, Visser etc). A throwback to AR picking his wee pals probably.

However I'm not suggesting dropping Weir, mainly because he hasn't been good enough to play for Scotland yet in the 1st place. I have no idea why people are criticizing Laidlaw either. He hasn't been playing that badly and looked like one of the few Edinburgh players who wanted to win against Glasgow.

Denton, Laidlaw and Tonks I would say have done their reputations no harm with recent performances. Denton too has looked hungry, if a little impetuous.

Without a doubt the pack will be the weagie pack, probably swapping Low for Murray, however I wouldn't be too concerned with Low playing. Hooker I'm happy for either MacArthur or Ford to start. Not Hall. We are kidding ouselves if we think he is an international class hooker. 2nd row Gray and Hamilton. Blindside Kelly B and openside enton with Beattie at no.8. Another try and a MOTM performance from Beattie against Sale I would say almost confirms him in my 1st XV. Harley is a chopper pure and simple. Brown and Denton can both do their fair share of chopping but having Denton at 7 might be the way forward against England to generate momentum and not have Beattie soloing the carrying duties.

Halfbacks.... pass. I don't even know who I would pick these days. Inside centre, Matt Scott, outside centre Eck Grove, and a back three of Visser, Maitland and Hogg or Tonks. Probably Tonks for playing England due to his better territorial kicking game.

1. Grant
2. Ford/MacArthur
3. Murray/Low
4. Gray
5. Hamilton
6. Brown
7. Denton
8. Beattie
9. Pyrgos
10. Jackson
11. Maitland
12. Scott
13. Grove
14. Visser
15. Tonks

Something like that for England but wouldn't mind swapping it up a bit for Italy and give Heathcoate a chance for a full game instead of being thrown into an impossible situation by that buffooon Robinson.

This Denton at 7 nonsense is crazy talk! I'd just about cope with Brown at 7 as a stop gap until Rennie or Barclay come back because he has the skill set to do a decent job there, and in Denton or Harley we have an able deputy at 6. Not Denton though! Come on people!!

When is the squad announced today?

Can we find a way of playing both Denton and Beattie?

Only way will be Brown at 7 I reckon. Or not play Brown at all!

Squad announced this afternoon

TJ wrote:Can we find a way of playing both Denton and Beattie?

Denton at 6 and Beattie at 8, but that means no Kelly Brown, that's our unfortunate situation - most of our top players are in the back-row. We have Harley, Strockosch, Brown, MacInally, Fusaro, Barclay, Rennie, Grant, Wilson, Denton, Beattie, Taylor, Hogg and Vernon there may also be more I've forgotten, compare that to our front row, half-backs and centres.

Denton at 12??

what do people reckon to Wilson at 7?

Okay, before RDW has a coronary, I agree that as Brown is the most experienced footballer and therefore he would perhaps do better at playing out of position than Dozer, who has no experience there at all.

The point is that we aren't going to have a pure fetcher either way, so let's just consider them left and right flankers as France do.

I think that we just need all three of B, B and D on the park at the start. They'll be playing Robshaw and Wood, neither of whom is a fetcher and hopefully SL will make the mistake of choosing Morgan instead of the currently far superior Easter.

Vernon at 12 surely :-)

NeilyBroon wrote:what do people reckon to Wilson at 7?

See Denton earlier for my opinion on that! For me we need to play a genuine 7 but failing that we need someone who at least has experience there, i.e. Brown. Long term there's maybe sense in looking at someone getting gametime there to see how they do but not for this 6N.