Scotland squad for the 6 Nations

First topic message reminder :

Scotland squad for training camp in Glasgow (January 20-23) ahead of RBS 6 Nations Championship:

Backs: Peter Murchie*, Stuart Hogg, Sean Maitland*, Tommy Seymour*, Sean Lamont (all Glasgow Warriors), Tim Visser (Edinburgh Rugby), Max Evans (Castres), Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby), Alex Dunbar* Peter Horne*, Duncan Weir, Ruaridh Jackson (all Glasgow Warriors), Tom Heathcote (Bath Rugby), Henry Pyrgos, Sean Kennedy* (both Glasgow Warriors) and Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby).

Forwards: Alasdair Dickinson (Sale Sharks), Ryan Grant, Dougie Hall, Pat MacArthur* (all Glasgow Warriors), Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby), Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors), Geoff Cross (Edinburgh Rugby), Moray Low, Alastair Kellock (both Glasgow Warriors), Richie Gray (Sale Sharks), Jim Hamilton (Gloucester), Grant Gilchrist* (Edinburgh Rugby), Kelly Brown (Saracens), Robert Harley, Ryan Wilson* (both Glasgow Warriors), Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier), David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby), Richie Vernon (Sale Sharks), Chris Fusaro* (Glasgow Warriors).

* = Uncapped.

Invited to be with the squad as they recover from injury: Chris Cusiter, John Barclay and Jon Welsh (all Glasgow Warriors) Nick De Luca and Ross Rennie (both Edinburgh Rugby) and Scott Lawson (London Irish).

Note to editors: Alasdair Strokosch (Perpignan) will miss the camp for family reasons as his wife is expecting their second child.

Better not have slamont at 13. However looks like no major blunders just a couple of minor ones. Glad Beattie is back in favour

Yay! 8 pages

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Effervescing Elephant wrote:Nothing to add, just trying to help get you chaps to 8 pages.

Top man!

Lets go for 9

Or

Lets....

..go...

...for...

...9...

I'd switch:

Max Evans for Alex Grove
Peter Murchie for Greg Tonks
Richie Vernon for Stuart McInally
Alisdair Dickinson for Gordon Reid
Grant Gilchrist for Tim Swinson

That said, the squad isn't a million miles away, and I'm not overly disappointed.

Great to see Beattie back, and I'm delighted that Fusaro is listed as fit to play. I really didn't want to have to go to Twickenham without an openside. Hopefully Fusaro can get 80 minutes next weekend. We need him,

Looks like Lamont may play at 13, he'd certainly be a better option to face Manu than Evans, can't see Dunbar going straight in somehow. Very strange to not pick Tonks and Grove.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Roddy grant ain't in the squad nelly?

Ah sorry, I had a dyslexic moment and got the grants mixed up.

Switch him for Denton.

That I think will be the first squad of Johnson's reign.

I like it when we have short posts.

The Irish posters would start arguments in an empty room, Leinster ranting about their HC glories, Munster fans gloating about being the 1st Irish province to win it and the Ulster fans moaning that they are the neglected world beating middle children.

The Welsh and English threads are long in comparrison because they just wind each other up!

We are classier for having such short threads and posts.

From the squad selection, my XXIII to go to Twickenham:

1.Grant 2.MacArthur 3.Murray 4.Hamilton 5.Gray 6.Brown(c) 7.Fusaro 8.Beattie 9.Pyrgos 10.Laidlaw 11.Visser 12.Scott 13.Lamont 14.Maitland 15.Hogg

16.Low 17.Ford 18.Dickinson 19.Kellock 20.Denton 21.Jackson 22.Dunbar 23.Seymour

I suspect Ryan will start with Ford and Kellock though, and (from what Johnson has told us) I expect Laidlaw and Jackson will form the half back pairing with Pyrgos on the bench, possibly along with Heathcote.

My initial thoughts:

I'm worried about Dickinson too but we don't have many top class looseheads to choose from at the moment, I'd probably have picked Reid ahead of him but probably not Traynor and I haven't seen Shiells play. Welsh got 40 minutes for Stirling County on Saturday so if he gets game time at Glasgow in the next couple of weeks he could move ahead of Dickinson.

Thought Ryder or Swinson would have made the squad.

The fact Fusaro is named in the squad and not as one of those "Invited to be with the squad as they recover from injury" suggests he's almost back to full fitness, good news.

4 number 8's, although I think Vernon has played openside before so might be backup there.

Good to see Beattie Back.

Good for Kennedy but probably won't make the 23 except in the case of injury (touch wood).

No Grove

No Tonks

19 players out of 35 were uncapped before the start of last season!

Starting side:

Grant
McArthur
Murray
Gray
Hamilton
Brown
Fusaro
Beattie

Laidlaw
Jackson
Visser
Scott
Dunbar
Maitland
Hogg

Ford
Welsh (hopefully fit)
Low
Kellock
Denton
Pyrgos
Heathcote
Seymour

My XXIII for Twickers :

1.Grant 2.MacArthur 3.Murray
4.Hamilton 5.Gray
6.Brown(c) 7.Denton 8.Beattie

9.Laidlaw 10.Jackson 11.Visser 12.Scott 13.Lamont 14.Maitland 15.Hogg

16.Low 17.Ford 18.Dickinson 19.Kellock 20.Fusaro 21.Pyrgos 22.Heathcote 23.Seymour

Wouldn't mind seeing Heathcoate start at some point though.

Denton at 7 and on the bench Radge??

I was actually thinking about Denton as an option at 7 yesterday (on the assumption that Rennie, Barclay, Fusaro and Harley were all carrying knocks). It would obviously be unorthodox, but he's not slow by any stretch and having both Denton and Beattie in the back row gives you some powerful ball carrying options. Would put a huge onus on Brown to play out of his skin, but I was prepared to consider it based on the limited options available.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Denton at 7 and on the bench Radge??

I was actually thinking about Denton as an option at 7 yesterday (on the assumption that Rennie, Barclay, Fusaro and Harley were all carrying knocks). It would obviously be unorthodox, but he's not slow by any stretch and having both Denton and Beattie in the back row gives you some powerful ball carrying options. Would put a huge onus on Brown to play out of his skin, but I was prepared to consider it based on the limited options available.

The world has gone mad. I thought you would at least back me up on this one FES!!! We need a 7 playing 7, or at the worst case Brown filling in there until a 7 becomes fit, but not Denton!

So you want to blood an unproven international 7 at twickers? Both of you?

And I'm going mad?

I'm glad to see Tom McHeathcote has been included, some of us Bath fans felt a bit sorry for him after Robos departure.

Good player, please look after him.

Neily - I thought he was too!

My thoughts:
Generally, I'm happy. For the most part, form has been rewarded, and we're actually bringing in players who will be useful for the future.

Specifically, I'm disappointed that Tonks isn't there - I like his willingness to run the ball back, and he links up well. However, Murchie has been playing his best rugby this year, and if we're serious about rewarding form, he deserves a shot. Not that I'm excusing Johnson, but is it possible that Tonks has asked not to be selected? He was born in England to English parents, so it's not like he has tattood a thistle to his forearm.

I understand the selection of Kennedy, although it is a bit desperate. We simply can't go into the Six Nations with only two scrum halves. I saw a stat that said that until the Tonga match, every Scotland match had had one of Blair, Cusiter or Lawson starting, all the way back to 2006. It was wonderful that we had those players, but they're all past it (Cusiter possibly has another couple seasons). If we don't blood Kennedy, when will we? I've been impressed with him so far this year - he looks as incisive as Blair, if a little lightweight. In any case, who else is there??

Evans has been living off that try against Wales for almost half a decade. Granted, his girlfriend is hot, but that's a reason to invite him to a dinner party, not a training camp. I haven't actually seen Grove play this year, but reports have been good, so his ommision is a mystery.

Beattie? Automatic selection at 8.

Vernon? A genuine exception to Sale's downward spiral, and he is at least fairly versatile.

Roddy Grant - We need a specialist openside, and anyone who says different is a witch. It all depends on whether Fusaro is actually fit - I guess we'll see this week. However, I'm not hugely disappointed at the ommission of Grant, who would only have been included because of a shocking coincidence of injuries, rather than actual form.

Slamont at 13 to take out Manu - OK I can accept that as a horses for courses choice perhaps but its no answer - our back 3 need good ball and slamont for all his qualities is not the man to provide it

VictorU3 wrote:I'm glad to see Tom McHeathcote has been included, some of us Bath fans felt a bit sorry for him after Robos departure.

Good player, please look after him.

His treatment by Robinson in that game against Tonga was very very poor. He was brought into the game as a last minute, desperate solution to and impossible problem created by everyone else.

Glad to see him getting another chance.

Kennedy's selection is a bit of a throwback to the old amateur days, according to the SRU website he's been picked partly on account of his form for Stirling County in the B&I Cup. He's certainly looked good when I've seen him playing for Glasgow (although he's only played twice I think). By the same criteria they could have selected Bedfords young scrumhalf Ali Price for the training camp as well, as he's no less experienced than Kennedy and I expect Kennedy's only there for experience initially anyway.
Vernon's selection is a bit odd, don't really see where he fits in with all the other onform options, maybe Johnson's going to do a 'Roland Reid' and play him at 13......

Radge - I think in the circumstances it has to be Brown at 7, espcially at Twickers. Denton is a more than able deputy at blind side and Brown will do a job until a 7 becomes fit. It is not something for the future but I think it is very much needs must.

I think

6 Denton
7 Brown
8 Beattie

Will give us a chance at Twickers, and we can reassess it after then.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Denton at 7 and on the bench Radge??

I was actually thinking about Denton as an option at 7 yesterday (on the assumption that Rennie, Barclay, Fusaro and Harley were all carrying knocks). It would obviously be unorthodox, but he's not slow by any stretch and having both Denton and Beattie in the back row gives you some powerful ball carrying options. Would put a huge onus on Brown to play out of his skin, but I was prepared to consider it based on the limited options available.

The world has gone mad. I thought you would at least back me up on this one FES!!! We need a 7 playing 7, or at the worst case Brown filling in there until a 7 becomes fit, but not Denton!

Hang on there. I'm saying that if Rennie, Barclay, Fusaro and maybe Harley are injured then I'd consider it an option. Nothing more. Luckily Fusaro is fit so to my mind it's a no brainer (as per my team selection above), Fusaro needs to play every minute of every Glasgow game and start at Twickenham.

Remember that Scotland beat England in 2000 with Jason White at 7. I wouldn't advocate going into battle without a proper openside, but I don't think Grant is a proper international openside, so were I to have to choose between Harley, Denton and Grant at 7, I'd probably be choosing between Harley and Denton, ruling out neither.

I know it was shot down in flames before but I don't really see why a fast and light forward like vernon could not adapt into a centre. Would he rally be too slow? Are his ball playing skills not up to it? would the defensive positioning be two hard? England have a centre turned hooker FFS!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Radge - I think in the circumstances it has to be Brown at 7, espcially at Twickers. Denton is a more than able deputy at blind side and Brown will do a job until a 7 becomes fit. It is not something for the future but I think it is very much needs must.

I think

6 Denton
7 Brown
8 Beattie

Will give us a chance at Twickers, and we can reassess it after then.

So you'd move the form player in Scottish rugby, Kelly Brown, away from the position in which he's become so effective, and move him to 7, where we know from the AIs that he'll struggle.

To my mind you have two players out of position in your back row, whereas I'd have none (or one were Fusaro not to make it).

TJ wrote: England have a centre turned hooker FFS!

Has Tuilagi finally gone to the front row where he belongs like??

TJ wrote:I know it was shot down in flames before but I don't really see why a fast and light forward like vernon could not adapt into a centre. Would he rally be too slow? Are his ball playing skills not up to it? would the defensive positioning be two hard? England have a centre turned hooker FFS!

To answer your pertinent questions.

1. Yes, he'd be too slow off the mark.

2. His ball skills are not even close.

3. It would be a huge learning curve, and he'd need a least one full season of top level club rugby at 12 before we could properly assess him as an international option.

Was this a WUM??

funnyExiledScot wrote:

TJ wrote:I know it was shot down in flames before but I don't really see why a fast and light forward like vernon could not adapt into a centre. Would he rally be too slow? Are his ball playing skills not up to it? would the defensive positioning be two hard? England have a centre turned hooker FFS!

To answer your pertinent questions.

1. Yes, he'd be too slow off the mark.

2. His ball skills are not even close.

3. It would be a huge learning curve, and he'd need a least one full season of top level club rugby at 12 before we could properly assess him as an international option.

Was this a WUM??

Not a Wum at all. we have a surfeit of back row players, a shortage of centres, Vernon is often seen as too small for the back row but he is very quick for a back row hence the question. Could he adapt? if so would it be his best route to an international career? Maybe he should have tried it a few years ago. I accept he could not be thrown into being a centre next week in an international.

Tom Youngs was a centre then became a hooker, Bananaman was a flanker who became a winger, I am sure there must be more.

With Matt Scott, Alex Dunbar, Ben Cairns, NDL, Alex Grove, Sean Lamont, Stuart Hogg, the Messiah and Joe Ansbro all options at centre, I really don't think we need to be considering Richie Vernon.

funnyExiledScot wrote:With Matt Scott, Alex Dunbar, Ben Cairns, NDL, Alex Grove, Sean Lamont, Stuart Hogg, the Messiah and Joe Ansbro all options at centre, I really don't think we need to be considering Richie Vernon.

+1

Howver what about moving Lamont to 7? He has lost some pace and isn't bad at scoring turnover ball...

Now now radge - just 'cos he is fat and ugly doesn't mean he will be a good forward :-)

Surely Vernon must be as quick if not quicker than Morrison? Porbably has better ball handling skills as well!

....and we all know how Graeme Morrison was for Scotland....

Let me also be clear - if Fozzy is fit - he's in with Brown at 6, Beattie at 8 and Denton on the bench. That much is straightforward.

What's a bit more complicated is if Fozzy is still carrying an injury. Do you risk him? I think that you do. For once in my adult life, I would like Scotland to start strongly in the 6N.

Some great posts above.

Radge: "Ulster fans moaning that they are the neglected world beating middle children" is another classic.

What's the genuine feeling about Bennett? He's been playing for Stirling in the B&I Cup like Kennedy but hasn't had any Glasgow gametime and was in the Scotland U20 team that was getting rolled over by Ayr in the first half of their training match until he and most others were replaced by Lineen. Is he as good potentially as people suggest?

MacKnocked-on wrote:What's the genuine feeling about Bennett? He's been playing for Stirling in the B&I Cup like Kennedy but hasn't had any Glasgow gametime and was in the Scotland U20 team that was getting rolled over by Ayr in the first half of their training match until he and most others were replaced by Lineen. Is he as good potentially as people suggest?

FES - over to you...

funnyExiledScot wrote:....and we all know how Graeme Morrison was for Scotland....

'good enough' to win 35 caps...

Also speaking of those 2, few years back when we played Samoa up in Aberdeen they sent Scotland players round all the local schools to drum up support. And Morrison & Vernon came to mine, clearly they fancied them selves as a centre pairing..!

Did anything ever come out as to why Chunk retired in such a hurry?

Bennet is to busy delivering sermons on Glasgow Green and Bellahouston Park to be concrned with his rugby. A bit like Jesus I suppose, he wasn't overly keen on being a carpenter either.

I remember watching Morrison in a Scotland A game at Perth a few seasons ago and it truly was like watching a player in slow motion.

MacKnocked-on wrote:What's the genuine feeling about Bennett? He's been playing for Stirling in the B&I Cup like Kennedy but hasn't had any Glasgow gametime and was in the Scotland U20 team that was getting rolled over by Ayr in the first half of their training match until he and most others were replaced by Lineen. Is he as good potentially as people suggest?

I don't have any "feeling" about Bennett. I don't have time to watch amateur or under-20 rugby, so I haven't seen him play beyond highlights of him missing/avoiding tackes in the U20 World Cup.

I did see a YouTube clip of him playing for the Clermont 6th XV (or something like that). He scored a nice try, as Clermont powered to a 80 - 0 victory against the Gerard Depardieau testimonial drinking society XV (I think only 12 players turned up).

I proclaim him ready for international rugby.

GLove39 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:....and we all know how Graeme Morrison was for Scotland....

'good enough' to win 35 caps...

Oh yes, in my worst nightmares I relive all of them.

Seriously, is the fact that Vernon is probably roughly the same pace as Morrison seriously going to go into the "tick" column as regards testing Vernon as a centre.

I think RDW is right - this is lunacy Monday.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

GLove39 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:....and we all know how Graeme Morrison was for Scotland....

'good enough' to win 35 caps...

Oh yes, in my worst nightmares I relive all of them.

Seriously, is the fact that Vernon is probably roughly the same pace as Morrison seriously going to go into the "tick" column as regards testing Vernon as a centre.

I think RDW is right - this is lunacy Monday.

Now, now he had a few good games. Anyhow's my point is that compared to some of the other centres we've had the idea of Vernon isn't as mad as it seems. Although I should point out I'd never like to see it tired!

I suppose if you consider some of Parks' performances at 10, a one-legged chimp at stand-off doesn't seem like a mad idea - similarly a broken chair at 13 to replace Marcus Di Rollo with an empty Chinese takeaway carton on the wing instead of Roland Reid......

Am in full agreement with your last sentence.

I've actually been a supporter of Vernon as a back row option in the past. Back when Edinburgh were trying a fast paced offloading game, and it looked like Scotland were going to try the same, Vernon didn't seem like a silly idea. However, with Beattie now back in form, Denton playing to an acceptable level and Wilson and McInally also in contention, I no longer see Vernon as a viable option at number 8. His best use for Scotland would probably be to join Colin Gregor as a specialist 7's player, to give some continuity to that squad.

I merely asked a question. Its based on 3 things - Vernons talent is too good to be wasted by Scotland, despite the list above we don't have a great number of good centres, ( some on that list are not centres and some are not good enough) and we have loads of good back rows so asked if this was possible - the answer would seem to be it would take a year or more and might not work anyway. Fair enough. Question answered.

edit - maybe it would have worked if he had tried a few years ago

Would Vernon be a better back than banananman?

TJ wrote:some on that list are not centres and some are not good enough

Would Vernon be a better back than banananman?

Who on my list is not a centre? All have played centre for club and country to my knowledge, except the Messiah, but he's a special case....

In answer to your second question - no. Banahan is both bigger and faster than Vernon. Banahan is an underrated player in England rugby, and has scored a fair few tries for Bath in the Jeff. There's no comparison to Vernon really. Banahan became a back at a much younger age.

Vernon would be more like Roland Reid in terms of comparison.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

MacKnocked-on wrote:What's the genuine feeling about Bennett? He's been playing for Stirling in the B&I Cup like Kennedy but hasn't had any Glasgow gametime and was in the Scotland U20 team that was getting rolled over by Ayr in the first half of their training match until he and most others were replaced by Lineen. Is he as good potentially as people suggest?

I don't have any "feeling" about Bennett. I don't have time to watch amateur or under-20 rugby, so I haven't seen him play beyond highlights of him missing/avoiding tackes in the U20 World Cup.

I did see a YouTube clip of him playing for the Clermont 6th XV (or something like that). He scored a nice try, as Clermont powered to a 80 - 0 victory against the Gerard Depardieau testimonial drinking society XV (I think only 12 players turned up).

I proclaim him ready for international rugby.

Just had to let FES get that out of his system.

To give another view just for the 'hey' of it, I watched Bennett play for Ayr for a full season at least and it was clear he was some considerable distance better than his peers. But that's in the Premier 1.

He actually did also play well in the U20 World Tournament but, depending on how you regarded it, Jamie Farndale being the top try scorer in the competition despite Scotland as a team coming 9th was proof of either Bennett's invaluable assists for this colleague or proof that real stars (like Farndale and Fleming) actually score tries.

He has Massive Promise. But as people like FES like to point out, it seems that the difference between Bennett and players from other nations who also show Massive Promise are that those players have either experienced Rabo or Jeff action already (JJ Hanrahan), are formally garlanded amongst their international peers (George Ford is an IRB World Junior Player of the Year) or have actually already cemented themselves into their full international set-ups (George North).

The jury is still out. Which will give us lots of potential to use up any foetus, deity or umbilical cord jokes not already splashed onto these threads. Which can't be many, really.