Scotland squad for the 6 Nations

First topic message reminder :

Scotland squad for training camp in Glasgow (January 20-23) ahead of RBS 6 Nations Championship:

Backs: Peter Murchie*, Stuart Hogg, Sean Maitland*, Tommy Seymour*, Sean Lamont (all Glasgow Warriors), Tim Visser (Edinburgh Rugby), Max Evans (Castres), Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby), Alex Dunbar* Peter Horne*, Duncan Weir, Ruaridh Jackson (all Glasgow Warriors), Tom Heathcote (Bath Rugby), Henry Pyrgos, Sean Kennedy* (both Glasgow Warriors) and Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby).

Forwards: Alasdair Dickinson (Sale Sharks), Ryan Grant, Dougie Hall, Pat MacArthur* (all Glasgow Warriors), Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby), Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors), Geoff Cross (Edinburgh Rugby), Moray Low, Alastair Kellock (both Glasgow Warriors), Richie Gray (Sale Sharks), Jim Hamilton (Gloucester), Grant Gilchrist* (Edinburgh Rugby), Kelly Brown (Saracens), Robert Harley, Ryan Wilson* (both Glasgow Warriors), Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier), David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby), Richie Vernon (Sale Sharks), Chris Fusaro* (Glasgow Warriors).

* = Uncapped.

Invited to be with the squad as they recover from injury: Chris Cusiter, John Barclay and Jon Welsh (all Glasgow Warriors) Nick De Luca and Ross Rennie (both Edinburgh Rugby) and Scott Lawson (London Irish).

Note to editors: Alasdair Strokosch (Perpignan) will miss the camp for family reasons as his wife is expecting their second child.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

I honestly can't wait for the Six Nations to start.

Ditto....

Just like that Christmas song :

It's the most wonderful time of the yeeeeeeeeear!

I guess it's the responsibility of the decent posters from all the nations to post good articles and comments to counter the inevitable of influx of cretins that the 6N brings to the rugby boards. Because the six nations and thr RWC are the only rugby events in the world.....

It really is! I love the cold mornings, getting done what you need to, before you go down the pub, maybe there's a fire, and drink ale with your mates until the early evening, watching great sport and sharing banter....

Love it.

that almost poetic Blue

Ha, thanks Glas. 6 Nations always brings out my sentimental side!

Imperialbigdave wrote:scrum.coms stats range from reasonably accurate to downright wrong, if theyre available always go for opta stats. I dont know about club level, but for internationals they do some incredibly in depth match packs.

Well you would know Stato !

funnyExiledScot wrote:Kellock would be the wrong choice for captain. He still isn't good enough to be guaranteed of his place, and against the very best locks in the 6 Nations, he's average. Not quick enough, powerful enough or dynamic enough.

Yes, he's good at shouting "come on lads", and he likes to prowl around the pitch winding people up, but when it comes to outperforming players like Launchbury, Lawes and Parling, he's always going to come off second best. Not necessary so with Hamilton and Gray, who on their day are both top rate.

I like Kellock's attitude, and the effort he puts in can never be questionned. He's also a more disciplined player than Hamilton, and he's still our best lineout lock, so he has his merits. Were he to be picked, say to assist with settling MacArthur into the role of hooker, and Hamilton to come on as an impact sub, then I wouldn't be too bothered. He shouldn't be captain though. Been there, done that, failed.

Would that be the same Lawes that Kellock and Swinson urined all over on Saturday fES ? Or the same Kellock whose efforts led to tries 1 and 3 on Saturday ?

After seeing both games again from the weekend (when I should be revising for finals...) Pat Mc and Al's contributions to the Glasgow win stood out even more... They both looked hungry and Al's hands for both tries were brilliant. Lineout worked well and even stole the odd one from Saints.

Edinburgh looked like they might just have been up for it in the first half but died away awfully in the second half, leaving their only decent performers to be their heroes in defence (Fife, Cairns, Scott, Tonks).

With Ross Ford announcing that he is fit to play I can see the scottish selectors going back into old faithful mode... But McArthur really deserves his shot and Ford has been dire for most of this season.

So after that last round, my team is as follows

1. Grant 2. McArthur 3. Murray 4. Gray 5. Kellock 6. Brown 7. Denton 8. Beattie 9. Laidlaw 10. Jackson 11. Visser 12. Scott 13. Dunbar 14. Maitland 15. Hogg
16. Ford 17. Dickinson 18. Low 19. Hamilton 20. Fusaro 21. Pyrgos 22. Horne 23. Lamont

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:
1. Grant 2. McArthur 3. Murray 4. Gray 5. Kellock 6. Brown 7. Denton 8. Beattie 9. Laidlaw 10. Jackson 11. Visser 12. Scott 13. Dunbar 14. Maitland 15. Hogg
16. Ford 17. Dickinson 18. Low 19. Hamilton 20. Fusaro 21. Pyrgos 22. Horne 23. Lamont

I concur

No Bob Harley UiG ?

If Fozzy is fit have him on the bench. He's a good weapon to unleash with 20 to go. If not then Bob...

To tell the truth I'd rather Reid than Dickinson as he's as good a scrummager and better in the loose. He was as prominent as McArthur in the big tackles on Saturday, including an absolute bonecruncher on Dom Waldouck.

But he's not in the squad so...

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:
Would that be the same Lawes that Kellock and Swinson urined all over on Saturday fES ? Or the same Kellock whose efforts led to tries 1 and 3 on Saturday ?

Yes, the very same. The same Kellock who has spent an international career being knocked backwards, and making a personal speciality of the sideways carry. The same Kellock who believes that by standing next to a ruck and holding his hand in the air, he's making a contribution to Scotland. The same Kellock who thinks that by shouting "come on lads" repeatedly, he's "leading" the team.

Yes, he's on form, and for that reason I don't mind so much him starting (I haven't seen any of Gloucester's games recently to comment on Hamilton). But I do genuinely believe that Tim Swinson is a better player than Al Kellock, and the real star of the Glasgow second row. I think Kellock is overrated.

Kellock is our Borthwick. A fine club player, but just not good enough to replicate his club authority in the international jersey. He's had many many chances, and we've seen it all before. He's a bit like Dan Parks. For Glasgow you pick him every time, but how many times do you need to see him underperform in a Scotland jersey before you just accept that he's a limited player.

Still, he is playing well at the moment, and he would assist young MacArthur on debut. Plus, I imagine Jim Hamilton coming on after an hour or so of ruck inspection could serve to bolster our performance at a crucial time in the match, and perhaps more importantly provide much needed backup for Murray Low in the scrum should the Reverend Euan Murray start to flag.

We're probably all at cross purposes anyway. This is Scotland. Hamilton and Gray in the second row, Al Kellock at blindside. That's what Robinson did with Hines when he had three locks he wanted to play......

Well his (Kellock's) International cause was not helped when that giant feckin helmet Robinson dropped him (as player and captain) after one game in the disaster that was RWC 11!

The mistake wasn't so much dropping him, as picking him and making him captain in the first place.

When picking your captain rule number one must be to pick a player who without dispute commands his place in the team based on merit and ability. Kellock has never been sure of his place; Richie Gray, Nathan Hines and Jim Hamilton are better players.

It's why Kelly Brown is the obvious choice for this 6 Nations. There is no better blindside available to Scotland at the moment. His respect and his authority as a captain must stem from that fact.

fES, I am not getting at Kelly Brown who I have huge amounts of respect as a player, a captain and a person - a thoroughly decent individual and a terrific rugby player. Quite what Al Kellock has to do though when everyone on here is talking about picking on form and not the coaches wee (big) pals a la Bath Bell End, I do not know. Further what has Hamilton ever done in a dark blue jersey ? I cannot think of a game where he was anything other than ordinary or crap !

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:fES, I am not getting at Kelly Brown who I have huge amounts of respect as a player, a captain and a person - a thoroughly decent individual and a terrific rugby player. Quite what Al Kellock has to do though when everyone on here is talking about picking on form and not the coaches wee (big) pals a la Bath Bell End, I do not know. Further what has Hamilton ever done in a dark blue jersey ? I cannot think of a game where he was anything other than ordinary or crap !

To be fair Kellock hasn't done much individually either and to be honest there aren't many locks who do individual, memorable things, Geoff Parling is a great player but you don't notice him do much. I suppose in many ways Kellock and Hamilton are similar and both show excellent leadership qualities but Hamilton has a bit of fight and bulk which Scotland's pack is currently in need of. I think that overall Hamilton is probably a better player but is also a bit of a liability in that he's had a few yellows and concedes penalties like they're going out of fashion.

I actually think that we're pretty close to having a good allround squad for the first time in a while, maybe just need two or three more better players and some experience to click. A good look at our mental preparation going into games would help, let's get the squad to spend time with Chris Hoy, Andy Murray and Monty to learn how to win.

MacKnocked-on wrote:I actually think that we're pretty close to having a good allround squad for the first time in a while, maybe just need two or three more better players and some experience to click. A good look at our mental preparation going into games would help, let's get the squad to spend time with Chris Hoy, Andy Murray and Monty to learn how to win.

Aye, but only without injuries, in general we have two or three decent players in each position but little strength in depth, for example we have Grant, Welsh and maybe Reid after that there are no other loose-heads. Back-row is our strongest area and one in which we could arguably have the best in Europe, then there's scrum-half where we have Cusiter, Laidlaw and Pyrgos then our next best is Kennedy, a guy who shows potential but has had little game time, there are similar cases in the centre and on the wings. Ideally we could have a squad of:

Grant, Welsh, Ford, MacArthur, Hall, Murray, Low, Cross/Reid, Hamilton, Gray, Kellock, Gilchrist/ Swinson, Harley, Brown, Fusaro, Barclay, Rennie, Denton, Beattie, Wilson/ MacInally, Cusiter, Pyrgos, Laidlaw, Weir, Jackson, Heathcote, Scott, Dunbsar, Cairns, Ansbro, Lamont, Seymour, Maitland, Visser, Hogg, Tonks/ Brown.

That to me looks competitive especially when you narrow it down to fifteen.

the problem I have is that people keep picking laidlaw for 9.

The guy hasn't played well there for Edinburgh, I don't see how that's going to change for Scotland!

Jackson's kicking has greatly improved, and whilst I agree its important we land the penalties I believe he can do it. If he's consistently missing bring on Laidlaw but I think Pyrgos is without a doubt the form 9.

If the fans could vote on team selection my guess the win rate would improve

NeilyBroon wrote:the problem I have is that people keep picking laidlaw for 9.

The guy hasn't played well there for Edinburgh, I don't see how that's going to change for Scotland!

Jackson's kicking has greatly improved, and whilst I agree its important we land the penalties I believe he can do it. If he's consistently missing bring on Laidlaw but I think Pyrgos is without a doubt the form 9.

Having Laidlaw opens the bench up a bit Neily.

If you start with Laidlaw at 9 and Rhubarb at 10, then you can have Pyrgos, Horne and Lamont or Seymour on the bench as Greig can move to 10. If Rhubarb has a brainfart or nine, then he can go off with Greig moving to 10 and Pyrgos coming in at 9. If Laidlaw is injured then Pyrgos can come on. Scott would also be serviceable at 10 if received wisdom is to be believed. I like the look of that much better.

I think people feel we need Laidlaw's brains on the park in whatever position. There will be an element of swapping first receiver too, which worked in those halycon days when the difference between Edinburgh and a bucket of cold poo was more than, well, the bucket.

Aye - Laidlaw is one of our best players with the best rugby brain. For the calcutta cup we need a bit of experience on the feild. laidlaw / jackson could turn out to be a very good combo

Yeah Laidlaw is without a doubt our smartest player. He can read the game like a book and lets not forget he was one of the few Edinburgh players who has looked interested recently.

He'll also take kicking duties away from Jackson.

1. Grant
In there on merit 100%. Thank goodness we have found a young and capable loosie to replace the waneing chunk.

2. McArthur
Again purely there on merit 100%. Mr Carlin called him Glasgow's pocket battle ship. Fully agree! He will do his fair share of tackling which will help our backrow out who won't be as tackle orientated without Rennie or Barclay.

3. Murray
"Lord, we ask you for good soil underfoot, we ask you for biased refereeing, we ask for forgiveness for the sins we will make at the breakdown, we ask for your help to reforge this day in your name..... amen. And god one other thing.... please ignore our opposition's heathen prayers and help us scrummage them of the park."

4. Gray
Sale might have been woeful but 50 shades of blonde seems to be bucking the trend... at least thats what the stats say but as our esteemed fellow poster pointed out Horne only carried the ball 8m against Northampton . Certainly in the Autumn he still looked good.

5. Hamilton
Our pack needs a niggley enforcer. Especialy against England. Hamilton brings the power, grit and determination that Kellock doesn't. For that reason alone he starts. I would let hamilton know that Kellock is snapping at his heels though.

6. Brown [C]
The best 6 in the home nations at the moment IMO. In the lst 2 HC games for Sarries he has done everything that is expected of him.

7. Denton
Can do a job at 7, and yes Beattie has recently played 7 for Montpellier but Beattie is a far more destructive ball carrier and he is the one I would want sitting at the base of the scrum, ready to pickup and rampage forward. This could really work since Denton has good handling skills and can be "johnny on the spot" to pick up an offload when/if Beattie is taken down. I would really like to see a set piece off the back of a scrum involving these 2 and either Visser or Maitland looking for an offload.

8. Beattie
Back 2010s barnstorming performances? Footage from Montpellier's recent games would seem to indicate so. Thank goodness.

9. Laidlaw
Our cleverest player. If given the time to bed in at 9 for Edinburgh and Scotland could become our very own Morgan Parra.

10. Jackson
In there on merit. Glasgow's backs have looked threatening thanks to this chap.

11. Visser
I don't think it's possible to drop the pro 12 top try scorer of 3 years running, or possible to drop a player who has the best try to cap ratio in the squad. 4 tries in 5 tests? 6 tries in 6 tests if you count the brace he already scored against England for the Baa Baas.

12. Scott
Lets throw away the Robinson crash ball 12 play book when you have a player with pace and guile at 12. We haven't got a Morrison or Lamont here feeding off the Scraps and deep balls Parks used to supply them with. We can have an attacking threats who'll take the ball flat, back themselves to beat defenders and get our wingers into space. Time to play your game Mr Scott... not Robinsons.

13. Dunbar
Time to shine Rookie, you are here on merit too and have shown what you can do in the Navy Blue of Glasgow, time to do it in the Navy Blue of Scotland. I resisted the temptation to put Lamont in here to counter Tuilagi. I have said earlier on it's what I would do, however I don't want to do that anymore. For too long we have been concerned with what our opposition could do to us. No more. Lets look at what we can do to them with the ball in hand instead of sticking a Flair vaccum or ball greedy bam in at 13.

14. Maitland
Been a while since we have had a proper kilted Kiwi in the team. I have seen his highlights on you tube and I expect a lot from him. I would give him a start against England but let him know Seymour is very very close behind.

15. Hogg
Been fantastic for Glasgow in his last handful of games. He needs to relac a wee bit though and not force it.

16. Ford
Been injured and not been at his best, but still far better than Hall.

17. Dickinson
we have noone else, but lets keep him at loosehead where he can at least offer some resistance.

18. Low
Cover for when the good reverand starts to tire.

19. Kellock
Arguably the form of his life, but still not physical enough for my liking to take on England.

20. Harley
The ginger monstrosity should come on late in the game to take advantage of some of the tired legs.

21. Pyrgos
I would think would come on for Jackson at some point and leave Laidlaw on the field for kicking duties.

22. Horne
Showed what his pace can do when there are tired bodies out there against Northampton. Would bring him on for Scott at some point.

23. Lamont
Can come on for Visser or Maitland at some point.

Scott / Dunbar in the centres - do they have the tackling ability to stop Tuilagi? On this one I want horses for courses and want a strong tackling centre for the calcutta cup match

Halfbacks - have we ever player Laidlaw / Jackson? Laidlaw could take the kicking pressure off Jackson, Jackson provides some creativity so laidlaw does not have to try to win the game on his own. could be very good.

No ginger monster in that team. I strongly believe every international team should have a ginger monster and as we have a couple of possibilities in the Scotland squad one should get a game.

Radge, i wouldn't be upset if that team started against England.

In other news I think Vernon (or the Vernonator if you prefer) has been reading this forum and is tipping himself for other positions:

By DAVID FERGUSON
Published on Wednesday 23 January 2013 08:50

IF Edinburgh supporters are bemoaning their club’s drop in representation in interim Scotland coach Scott Johnson’s RBS Six Nations squad, Sale duo Richie Gray and Richie Vernon are counting their blessings.

Gray may have been a shoo-in on past form but Vernon has been handed a new opportunity to shine after falling off previous coach Andy Robinson’s radar. It was only a 35-man squad training which met up in Glasgow on Monday and Tuesday, and the cut will come this weekend, but, as his team sits bottom of the Aviva Premiership and out of Europe, Vernon was one of several players overjoyed to be involved ahead of Scotland’s opening game against England at Twickenham on 2 February.

“It has been great to be back and training with the guys up here again,” he said. “It’s been a tough year down at Sale, but I’ve been playing well recently and so I’m delighted to be selected and be here.

“I was worried that the way things have gone with Sale would count against me. You know, it’s a lot easier to pick guys from winning teams, and it’s easier to play well in teams that are going well.

“I wasn’t involved in the autumn squad and I thought I might not be again, but it’s a big squad with quite a few new faces and we’ve all been trying to impress Scott Johnson, [forwards coach] Dean Ryan and [skills coach] Stevie Scott in training.

“I didn’t know Dean Ryan before meeting him on Sunday, and it was a bit strange after being used to him analysing games on TV but he’s been good.He said that he doesn’t want to change too much of what we’re doing, but pointed out 
that we’ve got pretty much ten training sessions to get everything in place. So it’s about small building blocks.

“He’s explained things very well, making sure we’re clear on our roles and know our roles in the gameplan and it’s been a good start. The coaches know what they want us to do – they have the gameplan worked out – and now it’s about getting us to buy into it, which won’t be difficult, and then drill it and drill it, and be sure of what we’re doing when it comes to Twickenham.”

Vernon enjoyed linking up with old Glasgow colleague and flatmate Johnnie Beattie, another player handed a recall as Johnson shows himself to be a different thinker to Robinson.

Vernon won the first of his 15 caps so far as a replacement for Beattie in 2009 and his last one came with Beattie out of the equation, against Samoa on last summer’s tour. Vernon is keen to renew the rivalry but acknowledges that the No 7 jersey may just present a new opportunity for a 25-year-old forward quicker across the turf than many backs.

He said: “It’s great to have Johnnie back. We had that time at Glasgow, competing against each other and becoming very good friends off the park as well, and it’s great to see him playing well again. I look at him as a friend you want to do well, as well as a rival, maybe more than a rival, actually. This season we played against him at Montpellier and, having done analysis for that game, you could see that he was on top form. Hopefully, we can see him back in that form for Scotland we saw three years ago, but, it would be nice if we could both fit in!

“Seven [openside flanker] could be an option. Right now I just need to keep my head down and work hard and see what coaches think but I’d love the chance to play again. My last ten games at Glasgow were at seven, and I’ve played there this season with Sale so I’m very comfortable there. I’ve not started there with Scotland, but it’s a position I quite like.”

At 6ft 6in and over 16 stones, Vernon is a big lad, the antithesis of the old-fashioned openside and, while England have followed the trend of shifting big men across the scrum, their seven, skipper Chris Robshaw, is only 6ft 2in. But, with Johnson having only selected one genuine openside in his squad, in uncapped Glasgow flanker Chris Fusaro, the coaches seem certain to opt for three big men.

Kelly Brown could play openside, with Johnnie Beattie, David Denton or Vernon at No 8 and Alasdair Strokosch or Denton at blindside. But, if Vernon can get down to the gritty ground chores, he might offer more pace with Beattie at No 8 and Brown at six. There are numerous possible permutations and that is before injuries come into the equation.

Strokosch was excused camp this week as he awaits the birth of a child, while Denton, Beattie and Fusaro are nursing knocks from weekend matches. All are currently expected to be available for Twickenham in ten days’ time but there are no guarantees they will be clear by Tuesday’s team announcement.

Vernon added: “In every Scotland squad I’ve been in we have huge competition in the back row and it doesn’t seem to be stopping. There are some quality boys coming through and, to be honest, that just makes it more exciting because it means you have to be performing really well to have a chance and, whoever is picked it is likely to be on form, so it gives us a chance of doing something.”

The amiable Dundonian added: “It’s going to be interesting. There may be a few changes to what has gone before. England away first-up is going to be a huge challenge so we have to get things nailed down quickly and be sure of what we’re doing.It’s good for me being down in England and familiar with what makes players tick here, and maybe knowing more about the players we’ll be up against thanI used to.”

TJ wrote:Scott / Dunbar in the centres - do they have the tackling ability to stop Tuilagi? On this one I want horses for courses and want a strong tackling centre for the calcutta cup match

Halfbacks - have we ever player Laidlaw / Jackson? Laidlaw could take the kicking pressure off Jackson, Jackson provides some creativity so laidlaw does not have to try to win the game on his own. could be very good.

No ginger monster in that team. I strongly believe every international team should have a ginger monster and as we have a couple of possibilities in the Scotland squad one should get a game.

If they try to tackle him up high, then he'll bulldoze his way through. Round the legs every time and he'll get nowhere. Primary school stuff really.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:13. Dunbar
Time to shine Rookie, you are here on merit too and have shown what you can do in the Navy Blue of Glasgow, time to do it in the Navy Blue of Scotland. I resisted the temptation to put Lamont in here to counter Tuilagi. I have said earlier on it's what I would do, however I don't want to do that anymore. For too long we have been concerned with what our opposition could do to us. No more. Lets look at what we can do to them with the ball in hand instead of sticking a Flair vaccum or ball greedy bam in at 13.

TJ wrote:Scott / Dunbar in the centres - do they have the tackling ability to stop Tuilagi? On this one I want horses for courses and want a strong tackling centre for the calcutta cup match

You asked TJ, although I had already answered!

Dunbar is 6ft 4" and nearly 16st, Scott is 6ft 2" and 15st 6, I dare say they'll do fine. As Tattie says get him round the ankles and he'll go down.

I'm sick of scottish coaches looking to the opposition and thinking "how do we counter that". Do we really think Lancaster will be looking at Scotland's pack thinking "how do we stop them doing ~blah, blah, blah~ ?". I certainly don't. They'll be playing their game, and we should start playing ours.

Glasgow's defence was excellent against Northampton, almost certainly led by Morrison, but we wouldn't advocate him starting would we?

Guess Kelly Brown is captian then... at least if the 6N captains photos are anything to go by.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Guess Kelly Brown is captian then... at least if the 6N captains photos are anything to go by.

Apparently, despite Kelly Brown meeting the media etc today, the captain won't be announced until Monday. According to the official twitter feed anyway.

Photo from twitter showing the other Home Nation captains and....Brown

https://twitter.com/RBS_Rugby_Lad/status/294015545995583488/photo/1

You asked TJ, although I had already answered!

Dunbar is 6ft 4" and nearly 16st, Scott is 6ft 2" and 15st 6, I dare say they'll do fine. As Tattie says get him round the ankles and he'll go down.

I'm sick of scottish coaches looking to the opposition and thinking "how do we counter that". Do we really think Lancaster will be looking at Scotland's pack thinking "how do we stop them doing ~blah, blah, blah~ ?". I certainly don't. They'll be playing their game, and we should start playing ours.

Glasgow's defence was excellent against Northampton, almost certainly led by Morrison, but we wouldn't advocate him starting would we?

I agree with you on the whole that we should be looking to play our game in a postive way not looking to counter the opposition in a negative way as a general rule. However Tuilagi is the main source of go forward for England and very much a power back - if we can counter him then we go a long way to stopping England. Good to hear they are good defensive centres - so happy to take your selection.

Scott had two good afternoons against Downey and Barritt over the past two weeks so I wouldn't worry about him and the big men, and Alex Dunbar has enough about him to deal with Tuilagi.

To be honest the key to beating England isn't countering Tuilagi, but getting to Farrell and making him kick the ball away. The back three that Scotland have will love Farrell putting balls into their hands, and with Hogg's current form and Visser/Maitland's eye for the line it could be interesting in HQ...

I read on the BBC yesterday that Tuilagi is doubtful for the Scotland game, because of an ankle injury. Can't seem to find the link again though.

Tuilagi is a doubt, along with Corbisiero and Alex Goode, according to the Daily Mail

Can't believe I'm citing the Mail. I feel so dirty.

I had suspected as he came off in the Ospreys game with an ankle knock, and then pulled out of the Toulouse game... Might make it but doubtful at the time. He didn't look to comfortable when he came off in the O's game.

123456789 wrote:

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:fES, I am not getting at Kelly Brown who I have huge amounts of respect as a player, a captain and a person - a thoroughly decent individual and a terrific rugby player. Quite what Al Kellock has to do though when everyone on here is talking about picking on form and not the coaches wee (big) pals a la Bath Bell End, I do not know. Further what has Hamilton ever done in a dark blue jersey ? I cannot think of a game where he was anything other than ordinary or crap !

To be fair Kellock hasn't done much individually either and to be honest there aren't many locks who do individual, memorable things, Geoff Parling is a great player but you don't notice him do much. I suppose in many ways Kellock and Hamilton are similar and both show excellent leadership qualities but Hamilton has a bit of fight and bulk which Scotland's pack is currently in need of. I think that overall Hamilton is probably a better player but is also a bit of a liability in that he's had a few yellows and concedes penalties like they're going out of fashion.

I'm not convinced Hamilton brings as much in the way of aggression as we talk about, he's big and gets in fights but in terms of focused aggression during actual game play I'm not so sure. OK Kellock isn't the most aggressive either but looking at these stats more I'm convincing myself there's something in them. I think maybe despite Kellock not being world class in terms of physical ability, he must bring some intangible quality that gets the team winning. Here's the stats I figured out earlier:

Pat_Mustard wrote:The more I think about it, the more I think Kellock should be starting anyway. I know Hamilton adds useful bulk to the scrum but I wasn't too impressed with him in November, after hearing about how well he'd been playing for Gloucester. My main memories of him during that series are about being too slow getting to rucks, and when he got there being too knackered to hit them hard enough. Maybe that's unfair but it was instances like that which stuck in my mind. Along with Kellock's recent good form and his knack of inspiring the troops, I think he should start.

Also, and I know it doesn't prove much, and there are a lot of other variables involved - but I remember someone saying a while ago that Kellock had much better win/lose stats in internationals. I've had a look and here are their winning percentages:

All internationals:
Kellock (47 caps)...................43.61%
Scotland during same period.....39.41%
Hamilton (41 caps).................30.48%
Scotland during same period.....40.76%

Six Nations:
Kellock..................................30.95%
Scotland during same period......24.28%
Hamilton................................11.90%
Scotland during same period......18.33%

Like I said, there could be other variables involved, like the form of other players or the possiblity that Hamilton was more often selected against stronger opposition. It doesn't necessarily prove anything but then maybe it does point to something?

If I can be bothered I might do a similar comparison for other positions at some point.

On the subject of hooker, I would be more than happy to see "Pat M" on the Scotland team sheet.

Now I've looked in more detail comparing matches in which each player has actually started as opposed to winning a cap off the bench.

When Kellock has started matches, his overall winning percentage goes up to 48.28%.
When Hamilton has started, his overall winning percentage drops slightly to 30.30%.

In Six Nations matches, Kellock's percentage when starting goes up to 33.33%
And Hamilton's drops again to 11.76%.

In 2012 alone, Kellock started 4 tests and won 3, while Hamilton started 7 and won zero.

Surely there's got to be something in that?

cakeordeath wrote:I read on the BBC yesterday that Tuilagi is doubtful for the Scotland game, because of an ankle injury. Can't seem to find the link again though.

There you go

*URL Removed as I am an idiot and hadn't noticed it was a year out of date*

EWT Spoons wrote:

cakeordeath wrote:I read on the BBC yesterday that Tuilagi is doubtful for the Scotland game, because of an ankle injury. Can't seem to find the link again though.

There you go

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/16413250

Thats a year out of date

EWT Spoons wrote:Radge, i wouldn't be upset if that team started against England.

In other news I think Vernon (or the Vernonator if you prefer) has been reading this forum and is tipping himself for other positions:

By DAVID FERGUSON
Published on Wednesday 23 January 2013 08:50

IF Edinburgh supporters are bemoaning their club’s drop in representation in interim Scotland coach Scott Johnson’s RBS Six Nations squad, Sale duo Richie Gray and Richie Vernon are counting their blessings.

Gray may have been a shoo-in on past form but Vernon has been handed a new opportunity to shine after falling off previous coach Andy Robinson’s radar. It was only a 35-man squad training which met up in Glasgow on Monday and Tuesday, and the cut will come this weekend, but, as his team sits bottom of the Aviva Premiership and out of Europe, Vernon was one of several players overjoyed to be involved ahead of Scotland’s opening game against England at Twickenham on 2 February.

“It has been great to be back and training with the guys up here again,” he said. “It’s been a tough year down at Sale, but I’ve been playing well recently and so I’m delighted to be selected and be here.

“I was worried that the way things have gone with Sale would count against me. You know, it’s a lot easier to pick guys from winning teams, and it’s easier to play well in teams that are going well.

“I wasn’t involved in the autumn squad and I thought I might not be again, but it’s a big squad with quite a few new faces and we’ve all been trying to impress Scott Johnson, [forwards coach] Dean Ryan and [skills coach] Stevie Scott in training.

“I didn’t know Dean Ryan before meeting him on Sunday, and it was a bit strange after being used to him analysing games on TV but he’s been good.He said that he doesn’t want to change too much of what we’re doing, but pointed out 
that we’ve got pretty much ten training sessions to get everything in place. So it’s about small building blocks.

“He’s explained things very well, making sure we’re clear on our roles and know our roles in the gameplan and it’s been a good start. The coaches know what they want us to do – they have the gameplan worked out – and now it’s about getting us to buy into it, which won’t be difficult, and then drill it and drill it, and be sure of what we’re doing when it comes to Twickenham.”

Vernon enjoyed linking up with old Glasgow colleague and flatmate Johnnie Beattie, another player handed a recall as Johnson shows himself to be a different thinker to Robinson.

Vernon won the first of his 15 caps so far as a replacement for Beattie in 2009 and his last one came with Beattie out of the equation, against Samoa on last summer’s tour. Vernon is keen to renew the rivalry but acknowledges that the No 7 jersey may just present a new opportunity for a 25-year-old forward quicker across the turf than many backs.

He said: “It’s great to have Johnnie back. We had that time at Glasgow, competing against each other and becoming very good friends off the park as well, and it’s great to see him playing well again. I look at him as a friend you want to do well, as well as a rival, maybe more than a rival, actually. This season we played against him at Montpellier and, having done analysis for that game, you could see that he was on top form. Hopefully, we can see him back in that form for Scotland we saw three years ago, but, it would be nice if we could both fit in!

“Seven [openside flanker] could be an option. Right now I just need to keep my head down and work hard and see what coaches think but I’d love the chance to play again. My last ten games at Glasgow were at seven, and I’ve played there this season with Sale so I’m very comfortable there. I’ve not started there with Scotland, but it’s a position I quite like.”

At 6ft 6in and over 16 stones, Vernon is a big lad, the antithesis of the old-fashioned openside and, while England have followed the trend of shifting big men across the scrum, their seven, skipper Chris Robshaw, is only 6ft 2in. But, with Johnson having only selected one genuine openside in his squad, in uncapped Glasgow flanker Chris Fusaro, the coaches seem certain to opt for three big men.

Kelly Brown could play openside, with Johnnie Beattie, David Denton or Vernon at No 8 and Alasdair Strokosch or Denton at blindside. But, if Vernon can get down to the gritty ground chores, he might offer more pace with Beattie at No 8 and Brown at six. There are numerous possible permutations and that is before injuries come into the equation.

Strokosch was excused camp this week as he awaits the birth of a child, while Denton, Beattie and Fusaro are nursing knocks from weekend matches. All are currently expected to be available for Twickenham in ten days’ time but there are no guarantees they will be clear by Tuesday’s team announcement.

Vernon added: “In every Scotland squad I’ve been in we have huge competition in the back row and it doesn’t seem to be stopping. There are some quality boys coming through and, to be honest, that just makes it more exciting because it means you have to be performing really well to have a chance and, whoever is picked it is likely to be on form, so it gives us a chance of doing something.”

The amiable Dundonian added: “It’s going to be interesting. There may be a few changes to what has gone before. England away first-up is going to be a huge challenge so we have to get things nailed down quickly and be sure of what we’re doing.It’s good for me being down in England and familiar with what makes players tick here, and maybe knowing more about the players we’ll be up against thanI used to.”

Hopefully this doesn't mean they will be inflexible and try and stick to the game plan if it doesn't work! Johnson has to get them playing heads up rugby!

lostinwales wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:

cakeordeath wrote:I read on the BBC yesterday that Tuilagi is doubtful for the Scotland game, because of an ankle injury. Can't seem to find the link again though.

There you go

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/16413250

Thats a year out of date

Picky aren't you

Yeah I should have probably read more of the article before I posted it. Ah well.

Not a fan of the idea of Vernon playing 7, I'd far rather Beattie or Denton stepped into that role. I think they'll bring more to the table. Vernon may well make the bench though I suspect.

Love the idea that Vernon thinks his knowledge of the English game will in some way help us. Having experience at Sale of losing games hardly qualifies. I think Kelly Brown will bring more useful intel in that respect.

Hopefully this doesn't mean they will be inflexible and try and stick to the game plan if it doesn't work! Johnson has to get them playing heads up rugby!

Hopefully the game plan suits the players so they can buy into it.

Jeez - I thought this thread had gone a bit quiet the past couple of days but must have deleted an email and missed new posts being added on! 2 pages in 2 days - good effort lads!

EWT Spoons wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:

cakeordeath wrote:I read on the BBC yesterday that Tuilagi is doubtful for the Scotland game, because of an ankle injury. Can't seem to find the link again though.

There you go

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/16413250

Thats a year out of date

Picky aren't you

Yeah I should have probably read more of the article before I posted it. Ah well.

Redemption - Ok so I was a year out the last time. But here is chat from this year.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21163836

England flanker Tom Johnson is likely to miss the first three games of the Six Nations with a knee injury.

Both Gloucester fly-half Freddie Burns and London Irish prop Alex Corbisiero are doubtful for the opening match against Scotland because of knee problems.

Leicester centre Manu Tuilagi is also a doubt for the Calcutta Cup match with a leg injury.

Calum Clark, 23, is already out of the Six Nations with a shoulder injury.

Exeter back-row forward Johnson, 30, and Burns have both damaged medial ligaments in their knee.

Corbisiero is to have his troublesome knee "cleaned out" on Wednesday and could also miss the second game against Ireland as well as the Scotland game on Saturday 2 February.

Johnson was carried off during Exeter's 29-20 Heineken Cup loss against Leinster on Saturday and England coach Stuart Lancaster has confirmed his absence from the first four to six weeks of the tournament.

Lancaster has brought uncapped Worcester back-row forward Matt Kvesic into the England squad as cover for Johnson.

TJ wrote:

Hopefully this doesn't mean they will be inflexible and try and stick to the game plan if it doesn't work! Johnson has to get them playing heads up rugby!

Hopefully the game plan suits the players so they can buy into it.

Hopefully the players can grow a pair and buy into the game plan they are told to buy into!!

FES - if you ask players to play a gameplan that does not suit them then you will not get a good performance out of them. We do not have the luxury of being able to chose between players for different gameplans. the players have to believe the game plan is right and have the attributes to execute it. we do not have a tactical kicking controlling standoff at the moment - so no point in telling laidlaw or Jackson to play in a way alien to them.

I really think this was one of the major issue with Robinson. he had a way he wanted the game played and attempted to pick players to play that plan - hence Parks last year agaisnt England. we should be picking our best players then creating a plan to get the best out of them.

Agreed TJ! I think we have fantastic backs at the moment and we have the right players to have a really good defence, therefore I think Johnson might be looking to build a solid defence and then look to counter attack really well when opposition makes mistakes, kinda like another team I know.. Who could that be again?... Hmm..

bsando wrote:Agreed TJ! I think we have fantastic backs at the moment and we have the right players to have a really good defence, therefore I think Johnson might be looking to build a solid defence and then look to counter attack really well when opposition makes mistakes, kinda like another team I know.. Who could that be again?... Hmm..

Edinburgh

Strockosch's wife has given birth, I'm guessing in France. At this rate in 20 years time there could be a Blair and Strockosch playing for France!

I love the way that in all three of the main celtic threads you all start off from a position of doom and gloom and then talk yourselves up over a couple of weeks until you have a team of all conquering world beaters.

lostinwales wrote:I love the way that in all three of the main celtic threads you all start off from a position of doom and gloom and then talk yourselves up over a couple of weeks until you have a team of all conquering world beaters.

It all depends, after Glasgow play we get excited and optimistic however when Edinburgh play there's doom and gloom.

123456789 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:I love the way that in all three of the main celtic threads you all start off from a position of doom and gloom and then talk yourselves up over a couple of weeks until you have a team of all conquering world beaters.

It all depends, after Glasgow play we get excited and optimistic however when Edinburgh play there's doom and gloom.

And when Scotland play we all want to top ourselves!