It didn't take long...

First topic message reminder :

Roger hinted it may be over and out for the one of the Regions. Can all 4 survive?

Here's what I wrote when the PRGB was set up:
Everybody talks about common purposes, but give it a few weeks and the old cracks will appear.

Sadly, it's wasn't the most controversial prophesy or the most surprisingly bourn out.

Mr Lewis chose the festive season to drop his "three Regions minimum" bombshell. Just before the four region structure saw two sell out crowds for the derby matches. It also came just weeks after the fanfare of the establishment of the PRGB. All talk of working together sits uncomfortably with this public statement.

The radical plan of course would be the establishment of a Valleys region, the merger of Newport and Cardiff as East Wales and the Scarlets and Ospreys as West Wales. RGC1404 in the North would be a development region and tasked with pushing for a place in the Pro11.

The cataclysmic events required for that to end up the plan have not and will not happen. It would be risky (resistance will be huge) expensive (the WRU could probably not afford to set up a Valleys region without a serious change of priorities) and far too sensible in the long term.

What of my own team, the Scarlets? Does Parc Y Scarlets ensure that they can not be allowed to fail? After watching their ineffective pack being mauled alive by the ferocious Ospreys on St Stephen's day, I'm not so sure.

Two points arise for me. The Second place in the Rabo flatters the Scarlets, who have been woeful in Europe since half time in Clermont. And, as much as I hate to say it, the existence of the Scarlets merely holds the jewel in the Regional Crown, the Ospreys, back.

The Ospreys beat Toulouse and demolished the Scarlets. They have shown precious little of that form since the RDS last season.

It's as if beating the Scarlets in the Liberty on Boxing Day is actually their top priority. When Paul James left his fondest moment was not captaining the Ospreys to a defeat of Bath and then Australia within a week when half his team were away with Wales, but playing when they smashed the Scarlets 60-17. Take the Scarlets away and the Ospreys may actually concentrate on Europe.

That leads to the more obvious point, the drain on the Ospreys from having a stubborn little club like Llanelli on their doorstep. The better Scarlets players would disperse to the other Regions and the Ospreys would be at the front of the cue.

Scarlets fans would boycott any merged team, of course they would. But then Leicester would come to town for a Heineken Cup crunch match:

"But Dai mun, I thought you were not ever going to support the West Wales Scarlet Ospreys, ever, ever, Amen"

"I'm going to support Leicester..."

What the Scarlets have done with the resources they have is commendable and they are starting to turn the corner. We should not read too much into one result, but I fear the future if the WRU take a hit in revenue (Wales Ireland 6 Nation tickets are in plentiful supply) and the Scarlets fail to make real strides, they may be the ones for the chop.

But what of the Dragons, how can they survive? Well, they could box clever and reach out to the rest of Gwent and the Valleys. Make themselves indispensable, as Cardiff seem reluctant to do so. It seems the Blues are happy to rely on their Capital City team status to ward off any threat. The depressing thing is that they are probably right.

The Dragons have much more chance of attracting the Valleys fans than the Scarlets. Would they be flexible enough to do so, or would 'Newport' cast too much shadow?

So, as this is a public statement by Mr Lewis, the only sensible conclusion is that the WRU and Regions are not pulling together even after the setting up of the PRGB. It has been deemed appropriate to "put about a bit of stick" in public; but where's the carrot?

Griff wrote:The only times we've had problems with our pitch was due to snow and/or frozen pitch, which affects loads of sports clubs all over the UK. Not that many people have underground heating. The other time was when we had a flooded pitch, but that was due to a downpour of biblical proportions. Local houses had to be evacuated that day. That was a freak occurrence which had never happened before. We've never had a waterlogged pitch before or since. (hope I don't have to eat my words to tomorrow!).

Strange the Newport County footy match was off for a water logged pitch just over a week ago and the last game against the third rate Italian side, the pitch looked poor.

glamorganalun wrote:

Griff wrote:The only times we've had problems with our pitch was due to snow and/or frozen pitch, which affects loads of sports clubs all over the UK. Not that many people have underground heating. The other time was when we had a flooded pitch, but that was due to a downpour of biblical proportions. Local houses had to be evacuated that day. That was a freak occurrence which had never happened before. We've never had a waterlogged pitch before or since. (hope I don't have to eat my words to tomorrow!).

Strange the Newport County footy match was off for a water logged pitch just over a week ago and the last game against the third rate Italian side, the pitch looked poor.

You really are clutching at straws if you're trying to criticise the Dragons for a football game being off. Doesn't mean that a rugby game would've been. We all get it, you don't like us. You don't have to try and come up with such pointless posts to try and prove it.

dragon999 wrote:glamorganalun - where do you get this notion about the pitch at RP? - it has one of the best surfaces of any in wales - i suspect you base your bias on the Cardiff debacle last season when a downpour of biblical proportions took place in the hours building up to kick off deeming the pitch unplayable - Your view of the Dragons is way out dated,restructured off field by excellent new CEO Chris Brown will show a small profit at year end - You may just have to eat your "dead duck" words shortly!

I think it is a little early to say "excellent new CEO Chris Brown" with Lydiate leaving Charteris gone and Faletau to follow. The Dragons have had 10 years to eat my words, i suspect I will not be eating my words anytime soon if they are still around.

I want the Dragons to win against the Ospreys, the fact I have a go at the Dragons is because their management, funding and ambition is not up to the job.

Just to further wiz on your chips

http://twitter.com/_MarkJones/status/285389351666479104/photo/1

Faletau is not going Alan - Agree that management in the past has not been the best but behind the scenes an infrastructure has been put in place to sustain the business going foward to long term - hopefully the WRU & Roger in particular will not close anyone down!
Holding on to players is not only a problem for the Dragons,French clubs have money to burn at the moment but it won't last

dragon999 wrote:Faletau is not going Alan - Agree that management in the past has not been the best but behind the scenes an infrastructure has been put in place to sustain the business going foward to long term - hopefully the WRU & Roger in particular will not close anyone down!
Holding on to players is not only a problem for the Dragons,French clubs have money to burn at the moment but it won't last

I know this is far from fact:
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2012/12/28/top-english-clubs-battling-to-sign-dragons-and-wales-star-toby-faletau-91466-32507848/

Rev, I hope the game goes ahead and the pitch stands up to the weather.

Alun, it's very easy to put the Dragons pitch down when the competition is the Liberty, Parc y Scarlets and, until recently, Cardiff City Stadium, with synthetic pitches which will never, ever have any have any issues. Do you think they should have built the Dragons a new stadium or to install a new synthetic pitch (at least £1m cost)?

The WRU debt is no doubt being paid off so quickly because of the bonuses that would come along from Barclays for paying loans off early and no doubt them bonuses will go straight into Roger and co's pocket.

Then we look at Samoa and Canada games staged in Colwyn bay being a sell out, also the under 20 world cup selling out in Wrexham and the U20 six nations selling out in Colwyn Bay.
The WRU seriously need a Region closer to the North.

But worst case scenario being the WRU drop to 3 regions it won't hurt the international squad at all the 2008 GranSlam team proved that.

The OP saying he would support Tigers if his region folded, i to wonder who i would support if the Scarlets got the chop?

I think it's time to give Welsh fans a guilt trip. Cajoling hasn't worked. Make them feel bad if they don't attend matches.

Griff wrote:Alun, it's very easy to put the Dragons pitch down when the competition is the Liberty, Parc y Scarlets and, until recently, Cardiff City Stadium, with synthetic pitches which will never, ever have any have any issues. Do you think they should have built the Dragons a new stadium or to install a new synthetic pitch (at least £1m cost)?

Griff:

I thought the pitch was being improved as part of the stand development, I know they moved the pitch towards the clubhouse to increase the space for the corporate area. I am sure it would not cost a lot to get the ground flat and even, the ponds that formed during the storm last season showed this also, the low TV shots show the touch line being wavey (up and down). I used to work in the building now the fitness centre in front of what was the Newport Cricket ground, the basement used to flood during spring tides and had to be pumped out, the floor of the basement was only 5ft below the playing surface at Rodney parade hence drainage has always been an issue during and soon after high tides because of high the water table.

Anyway, I think the priorities for the Dragons should have been:

1 Playing and coaching staff to win games and bring in the crowds, failed
2 Get buy in fron the rest of the region, failed
3 Decent Sponsorship to support 1, failed
4 Playing surface (not bad for the first 5 years), failed
5 Stands etc if/when 1-4 are met. Done but pointless unless the seats are filled. It does look like a stadium fit for regional rugby.

Before anyone comes back and says rubbish, results, crowds, players for Wales (failed, fact)?

1) Utter rubbish. We have fairly youngish players in key positions who just need to be developed. So your solution is to spend money on players. I'd rather us do as we are doing, as we've done the signing thing before.

2) Try that again in English.

3) How do you know what the sponsorship we have brings in?

4) What is wrong with the playing surface really? You've even seen a photo taken today.

So it is rubbish.

The thing is, most Dragons supporters aren't happy with things like results etc, but if you must have a pop all the time, do it with a bit more substance. I also believe we do deserve a better representation in the Welsh squad with players like Jon Evans, Prydie and Dan Evans deserving of squad places over people like Brynmor's boy, Robinson and others. That's not strictly our fault if Cement Head don't see it.

Carry on Alun - every dog has his day

We can agree about Williams and Robinson and thank god James is out of favour. I would put Lewis Evans in the Wales squad ahead of the likes of Scarlets McCuster and Turnbull I don't think the others are good enough but Prydie has experience and strength to break into the squad.

dragon999 wrote:Carry on Alun - every dog has his day

Ten years and counting.

glamorganalun wrote:
Anyway, I think the priorities for the Dragons should have been:

1 Playing and coaching staff to win games and bring in the crowds, failed
2 Get buy in fron the rest of the region, ailed
3 Decent Sponsorship to support 1, failed
4 Playing surface (not bad for the first 5 years), failed
5 Stands etc if/when 1-4 are met. Done but pointless unless the seats are filled. It does look like a stadium fit for regional rugby.

Before anyone comes back and says rubbish, results, crowds, players for Wales (failed, fact)?

Even omitting your flagrant lack of knowledge, bias and bitterness, to attempt to achieve those criteria of success given the current set up, influence of the WRU, and poor league would be suicide. Thankfully, the board at the Dragons realised (as the other regional benefactors are only now doing) that playing the WRU's game is a total nonsense.

Given that, how about criteria six, remain financially sustainable (and indeed, continue to exist) despite inadequate funding and mismanagement from central body, who also happen to be the partner from hell in our region due to the inability of others to hold up their end of the bargain? I can think of one other region who failed pretty dismally at that after just one year. You'd think their former fans would be a little more praiseworthy of a region that has managed it for ten.

glamorganalun wrote:The fact of the matter is the Dragons have been rubbish for most/all of the the 10 years

If you want to talk facts, we finished third in the league in 2003/2004 and fourth in 2004/2005. Although I'm sure you'll come up with a reason why those two seasons don't count.

I do feel for the Dragons. They have some fine young players, I just feel one of the main problems is that Edwards simply isn't up to the job. He always strikes me as a man way out of his depth and when interviewed during the games has literally no idea whats going on or what to do next.

I agree, the Dragons are underrepresented in the Welsh squad. Prydie, Evans etc.. have done very well this year and how Mcusker, Turnball and Williams keep getting in ahead is anyone's idea. Especially Prydie, who I think could be a fantastic full back for Wales.

Edwards is only part of the problem IMHO, he's a good little coach but just hasn't the structure to succeed so we'll never know how good he could be!

The issue I have with the Dragons is the slow but constant decline on the pitch we have seen for 10 years now, they were in a position under Turner where they had managed to reform a number of players, develop from within and sign a few journeymen to be very competitive, the likes of Brew, Tovey, Charteris, Falatau, Lydiate, Thomas, Burns, Harries, Thomas and Smith were all striking a balance of the experienced, reformed, supremely talented and potentially very good, but one by one the players have been allowed to leave fall away.

To run a succesfull team you need a balance, but the Dragons are at a point where everytime one of their players show a hint of international quality the vultures begin to circle. They need to retain players like Lydiate and Falatau, add a few old heads to their pack, I personally think the likes of Gethin and Metthew Rees would be very good additions, as well as maybe 2/3 good quality NWQ players and all of a sudden the younger boys would get a boost, the pack boys learn from this experience coming in and winning games would be a possibility again!!

I feel for the region, but think it highlights the regional system in Wales, something must be done soon before we are all in the Dragons prediciment!

Stone Motif wrote:

glamorganalun wrote:
Anyway, I think the priorities for the Dragons should have been:

1 Playing and coaching staff to win games and bring in the crowds, failed
2 Get buy in fron the rest of the region, ailed
3 Decent Sponsorship to support 1, failed
4 Playing surface (not bad for the first 5 years), failed
5 Stands etc if/when 1-4 are met. Done but pointless unless the seats are filled. It does look like a stadium fit for regional rugby.

Before anyone comes back and says rubbish, results, crowds, players for Wales (failed, fact)?

Even omitting your flagrant lack of knowledge, bias and bitterness, to attempt to achieve those criteria of success given the current set up, influence of the WRU, and poor league would be suicide. Thankfully, the board at the Dragons realised (as the other regional benefactors are only now doing) that playing the WRU's game is a total nonsense.

Given that, how about criteria six, remain financially sustainable (and indeed, continue to exist) despite inadequate funding and mismanagement from central body, who also happen to be the partner from hell in our region due to the inability of others to hold up their end of the bargain? I can think of one other region who failed pretty dismally at that after just one year. You'd think their former fans would be a little more praiseworthy of a region that has managed it for ten.

Excellently put.

Liam wrote:I do feel for the Dragons. They have some fine young players, I just feel one of the main problems is that Edwards simply isn't up to the job. He always strikes me as a man way out of his depth and when interviewed during the games has literally no idea whats going on or what to do next.

I agree, the Dragons are underrepresented in the Welsh squad. Prydie, Evans etc.. have done very well this year and how Mcusker, Turnball and Williams keep getting in ahead is anyone's idea. Especially Prydie, who I think could be a fantastic full back for Wales.

Yeah that's exactly what I've been thinking of Edwards for a while. Prydie, Jon Evans, Dan Evans, Lewis Evans and Phil Price should be in contention. Especially ahead of some of the rubbish last in the Wales squad.

Lewis Evans and Andrew Coombes possibly. Wayne Evans at a push.

Wayne should have been given a chance years ago but the awful Knoyle kept getting picked. Wayne is behind Jonny in the pecking order, but it's not like that stopped Knoyle getting picked ahead of Davies; so yeah maybe Wayne.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

glamorganalun wrote:The fact of the matter is the Dragons have been rubbish for most/all of the the 10 years

If you want to talk facts, we finished third in the league in 2003/2004 and fourth in 2004/2005. Although I'm sure you'll come up with a reason why those two seasons don't count.

[u]

As I said "most", two seasons out of ten is an accurate statement. The Dragons have supplied the least internationals for the 6N and RWC's so their results are/were boosted facing weakened teams in the Celtic league. I would not call one third and one forth position being a great achievement. M Ruddock did a good job for the Dragons with the players he had but since he left for the Wales job it is fair to say it has been down hill, I am sorry to say. If the Dragons get ditched the blame has to go with the senior management/WRU not the supporters or the players.

If you meant most, you should have just written most.

That helps...

glamorganalun wrote:The Dragons have supplied the least internationals for the 6N and RWC's so their results are/were boosted facing weakened teams in the Celtic league. I would not call one third and one forth position being a great achievement. M Ruddock did a good job for the Dragons with the players he had but since he left for the Wales job it is fair to say it has been down hill, I am sorry to say. If the Dragons get ditched the blame has to go with the senior management/WRU not the supporters or the players.

Alun Irrelevant is off again. I know you don't like answering questions Alun, especially those that make your rants look extra foolish, but just to pick you up on the internationals produced point, why should private businessmen be expected to pay to produce players for Wales at the expense of their own core business? If you can't understand that success as a region is completely at odds with supplying players for Team Wales there's no hope for you.

Completely at odds? Why completely?

How many games do Team Wales players play? How many league and cup games do they miss? How much do they cost to develope? How little do the union pay towards that development? How much compensation do the regions get when their players are injured being flogged to pay for Roger's bonus? How much is private investor generosity being exploited?
Need I go on?

Yes. How many extra punters do you get when your team has international stars?

Glas a du wrote:Yes. How many extra punters do you get when your team has international stars?

So you reckon a few extra ticket sales, if any, is enough to pay back all the investment that goes into these players and cover the loss of not having them for half the season whilst they are playing for an organisation that is your direct competitor? People on here have some bizarre notions of how important ticket sales are to the financing of rugby teams, fair play.

Not many Glas, at least not at the Dragons. We've got about the same crowd now with 2 internationals as we had a few years back with no internationals, and it was the same the last couple of seasons when we had 5 internationals. Doesn't seem to affect things.

Spot on Griff. At the root of it, of course, is that the casual fan can watch these players play at the Milstone Stadium as easily as the can at one of the regions.

I'm playing Devil's Advicate to an extent. Shirt sales, away fan attendances, the knock on effect of a player transferring his experience back to the team. Improved professionalism and on pitch performances. Get rud of Lydiate and Faletau and see what it does for your team and the artensances. The benefit of keeping them may be marginal, but...

NOT A COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME...

Sorry for the roundabout way of pulling Motif up on exactly the same thing as he accused Alun of!

Actually you haven't pulled me up on anything, just looks like you've caught a dose of Glamorgan Alun irrelevance syndrome. The factors you've listed need to outweigh the damage done by the structural issues highlighted, and the evidence suggests they don't by some stretch. If the much-vaunted O's, with a wealth of internationals, several league titles, a flourishing academy, and reportedly very strong shirt sales, are making all sorts of noises about being unsustainable and benefactor generosity being pushed too far, then you have your answer.

Stone Motif wrote:How many games do Team Wales players play? How many league and cup games do they miss? How much do they cost to develope? How little do the union pay towards that development? How much compensation do the regions get when their players are injured being flogged to pay for Roger's bonus? How much is private investor generosity being exploited?
Need I go on?

The WRU funds all the academies. That's how much. Not sure how much compensation they get, but they are compensated. But, this is the reason why I think dual or central contracts are a good idea. The WRU pays the wages of 15-20 players with little or no reduction to the money they invest in the regions.

I think that really the WRU will have to look at doubling what they give the regions.
Keep paying the money that they do, but also centrally contract the top 15-20 players.

The WRU say they could centrally contract the Welsh squad, but that doesn't thake into account the fringe Welsh players, and Pro 12 level players.

The WRU should be able to afford to keep the payments to regions as is, add central contracts to 10-20 players WG says are the most important to him, in return regions will have limits on NWQ players that is enforced, with penelties for breaking it, and advised what positions these NWQ can be signed for (so you don't get 3 NWQ tightheads).

Kingshu wrote:I think that really the WRU will have to look at doubling what they give the regions.
Keep paying the money that they do, but also centrally contract the top 15-20 players.

The WRU say they could centrally contract the Welsh squad, but that doesn't thake into account the fringe Welsh players, and Pro 12 level players.

The WRU should be able to afford to keep the payments to regions as is, add central contracts to 10-20 players WG says are the most important to him, in return regions will have limits on NWQ players that is enforced, with penelties for breaking it, and advised what positions these NWQ can be signed for (so you don't get 3 NWQ tightheads).

The WRU currently give the regions £15M per per (£15.1M in 2012, £15.0M in 2011, ref. the WRU annual report*). That works out as £3.75M per region per year. That's a pretty good amount. It should cover the player squad with the £3.5M cap. That way the regions are only forking out for running costs. Basically the WRU ARE paying for centrally contracted players. It's becoming a similar situation to what they're going for in New Zealand with the NZRU also paying for the coaches as well as the players. Doubling the amount would mean players could be paid more (it would be 150% of the English salary cap) but you'd have to ask what the regions are paying for themselves.

*Not sure if the academy funding is counted in this or not.

I always wondered why the regions say they are badly funded and call out for more, ok the £3.75M per region per year, part of that is the h-cup and tv money etc that they earn, about £1.55 milllion is the WRU payment for player release (£6.2 million between all 4).

of the £3.75 Million the WRU give in your figures is really only £1.55 million per region (the other £2.75 M is what is earned for H-cup,pro 12 etc)

I mean double what the WRU really gives from £1.55M to £1.55M per region + central contracts for top 20 players. Costing the WRU about an extra £6M a year.

It would have ment in Dragons case they would have had 2 Central contracts, meaning they can divert their pay toward other players, increasing squad etc etc. It would really mean that the centrally contracted players are bonuses for the big games, as there would be rest periods and increased training get togethers. The players on central contracts would see how well treated they are staying in Wales and players should stay to try and earn one.

Of couse the giving out of the central contracts has to be impartial to regions, as you don't want some former LLanelli player having an influence and giving out more central contracts to Scarlets than they deserve.

I always wondered why the regions say they are badly funded and call out for more

Because if they said "thank you very much, that's enough..." they'd get less.

Morgannwg wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:How many games do Team Wales players play? How many league and cup games do they miss? How much do they cost to develope? How little do the union pay towards that development? How much compensation do the regions get when their players are injured being flogged to pay for Roger's bonus? How much is private investor generosity being exploited?
Need I go on?

The WRU funds all the academies. That's how much. Not sure how much compensation they get, but they are compensated. But, this is the reason why I think dual or central contracts are a good idea. The WRU pays the wages of 15-20 players with little or no reduction to the money they invest in the regions.

The O's academy is reputedly costing 700k per year to run, to which the union contributes 150k. It's one of the reasons the O's board is so fecked off with the WRU. If you run the academy on WRU money alone you get the Dragons academy. The compensation is also insufficient due to the amount of games played by Wales, imo.

HammerofThunor wrote:
The WRU currently give the regions £15M per per (£15.1M in 2012, £15.0M in 2011, ref. the WRU annual report*). That works out as £3.75M per region per year. That's a pretty good amount.

Yeah pretty good. Just less than any other of the 6N unions fund their pro sides. Plus it's not given it's earned via the TV contract.

HammerofThunor wrote: It should cover the player squad with the £3.5M cap.

Nope at least two of the three were over it, the O's still are apparently. Are we not supposed to offer players their market value?

HammerofThunor wrote: That way the regions are only forking out for running costs.

Which are ridiculously inflated by the league they play in, in any case.

HammerofThunor wrote:Basically the WRU ARE paying for centrally contracted players.

Cobblers.

HammerofThunor wrote: you'd have to ask what the regions are paying for themselves.

Pretty much everything.

Give up the Motif, tell the Dragons to pack it in.

Missed point entirely. Left to their own devices I'm sure between them Hazell, Brown x 2 and Matthews can awaken the sleeping giant. We just need a chance free of WRU interfering.

Free of interference? Fine, do it free of funding as well then. It's a quid pro quo.

Hazell is worth about 50m. Tony Brown over 100m. God alone knows how much Dylan Matthews is worth. You reckon they can't match the poxy 1.6m we get from the WRU?

If not they chose not to, on balance they must think the hassle of dealing with ROG is worth it.

What would be interesting is to see the demands placed on players by the WRU if central contracts were introcduced.

The regions see so little of their int players now I could easily see another 2 int games squeezed in somewhere for the payday.

Stone Motif wrote:Hazell is worth about 50m. Tony Brown over 100m. God alone knows how much Dylan Matthews is worth. You reckon they can't match the poxy 1.6m we get from the WRU?

Not accoording to the sunday times rich list. Nowhere near. Get your facts right.

Glas a du wrote:If not they chose not to, on balance they must think the hassle of dealing with ROG is worth it.

Don't be absurd. More like they're not willing to invest in something 50% owned by the partner from hell that can be shut down at any second rendering any investment meaningless.

Scrumdown wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:Hazell is worth about 50m. Tony Brown over 100m. God alone knows how much Dylan Matthews is worth. You reckon they can't match the poxy 1.6m we get from the WRU?

Not accoording to the sunday times rich list. Nowhere near. Get your facts right.

The same ST Rich List that doesn't include stuff like property portfolio, overseas investments and other non-publically available information? Clownshoes!

Stone Motif wrote:

Glas a du wrote:If not they chose not to, on balance they must think the hassle of dealing with ROG is worth it.

Don't be absurd. More like they're not willing to invest in something 50% owned by the partner from hell that can be shut down at any second rendering any investment meaningless.

Yet they don't walk...