England Wingers - Varndell -the elephant in the room? But Why?

I have read with interested everyone's respected views on England wingers - but ask why Tom Varndell is unilaterally ignored? What on God's earth has this man got to do to be given a chance?

He is on track to be the first player to top the premiership try charts for the 3rd time. He has scored more tries this season than the second and third placed payers combined and has scored more than 3 times as many as Ashton. His last England outing was away against the All Blacks when he scored in our hammering. His defensive issues have been addressed and he is bigger and stronger than ever. He is the second highest try scorer in Premiership history only behind the retired Hanley and Cueto who is 6 years his senior. He will become the highest ever try scorer in Premiership history - and at this rate will do so before he is 28.

I am fed up with the argument that scoring tries is not the B all and end all - I get that, but of the top 10 international try scorers of all time, 8 are wingers. Show me a winger who can't score and you will see him promptly dropped. Shane Williams was first on the team sheet because he could score tries, not because of his physical prowess. Where is Asthon's motivation of he gets selected regardless? Of the great England team of 2003, Jonno said "No ones place is certain, not even mine. If you don't perform, there are plenty of great players waiting to jump into your boots. It keeps you focused and hungry"

Tom had some personal issues at Leicester - but these are firmly in the past and being lucky enough to know many people at Wasps, I know first hand how valued he is as a team mate and player. If England don't give him a chance when the EPS is announced it will be a kick in the teeth to inform players everywhere.

Imagine a Wendlyball player having scored twice as many premiership goals than any other being ignored for international duty..... seems insane.

Ashton is not performing and needs some serious competition for his place. Tom has earned another chance - they gave it to Monye after all and Tom is 2 years his junior. And yes - I am a Wasps fan BUT this is based upon facts not allegiance.

PS - at International level, he scored 3 tries in 4 games. Thats .75 per cap - a figure only bettered by Doug Howlett & Christian Cullen

Fair enough. I'd take Wade over Varndell as he's created several
Of Varndell's tries from scratch though

I agree with the points on Ashton as I've never been his biggest fan. His basic skills and defence are poor - just look at his pass to Brown in the SA game after the intercept that butchered the try.

My choice wingers currently would be JSD and Foden with Brown/Goode at FB which people will no doubt criticise. Whilst I'm a fan of Monye I have to agree that Wade or Varndell deserve his place in the squad atm.

That said Varndell has often displayed the rugby brain of a confused squirrel. His all round game has improved a lot at Wasps though.

Varndell is improving nicely since Dai Young took over. He has always been the type of player that needs an arm round his shoulder and to be given a regular pat on the back. Pat Howard was always good at getting tye best out of him but others have struggled. I'm not sure the Lancaster regime woukd necessarily suit him but his skill set is what England could utilise, especially given Farrell and Flood's love of kicking high and long.

I'd like to see Wade given a go first though, there's something of the Jason Robinson about him and that ability to step go and create something from nothing is exactly what Englabd need out wide.

What's always been frustrating about Varndell is his lack of physicality: decelerating into contact, not committing to tackles and getting brushed off... He's still a very effective player in the pRemiership: he scores tons of tries, and even when he was at Leicester his speed in defence was arguably ample compensation for his occasional lack of commitment in that area. But I suspect coaches think you need more guts to play at test match level.

It's wrong I know, but every time I look at him and start to convince myself he is worth another shot I remember back to the Churchill Cup final in 2009. His tackling attempts were pathetic bordering on cowardly and must have cost the Saxons upwards of 20 points.

A lot of rugby has been played since then and his try scoring record for Wasps speaks for itself, which is a positive. However, I mentally line him up against the likes of North or Cuthbert and can only see him copping out again.

Matt LeTissier of rugby?

That's surely JSD...

Wade earns a fair few of Varndell's tries because every team (bar Quins in the DH) have been double marking him. This often leaves space on Varndell's wing, which Wasps have been able to exploit.

Anyway, I don't think Varndell fits the Lancaster 'template' for the type of player SL wants. That's more a perceived attitude about previous defensive issues. He's atill not a great tackler, but is much better with his positioning these days.

Wasps had Paul Sackey for a few years, and he was similarly criticised when at Irish. He turned out to be one of England's better defensive wingers of the last 8 years. Hopefully Wasps can do the same with Varndell.

How does Ashton fit the SL template?

He isnt exactly an all rounder and he is clearly a little selfish the way he celebrates tries. Plus he isnt the most prolific try scorer of late.

Whereas Johnson was constantly chopping and changing I personally think one of the key factors of SL's success has been introducing some stability and consistency of selection.

This can make it hard for "form players" to break into the team. However, it has given England some much needed momentum.

GunsGerms wrote:How does Ashton fit the SL template?

He isnt exactly an all rounder and he is clearly a little selfish the way he celebrates tries. Plus he isnt the most prolific try scorer of late.

He's in possession of the shirt, I reckon when/ if he gets injured he may have difficulty getting the shirt back.

Cumbrian wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:How does Ashton fit the SL template?

He isnt exactly an all rounder and he is clearly a little selfish the way he celebrates tries. Plus he isnt the most prolific try scorer of late.

He's in possession of the shirt, I reckon when/ if he gets injured he may have difficulty getting the shirt back.

Cumbrian - that may well be the case. Look at Foden; he isn't looking like reclaiming the 15 shirt from Goode atm.

Who would you all pick for wingers then? I think it's a real problem for us, especially when we resort to sticking fullbacks there.

Having said that, I'd be inclined to play Brown and Ashton first up. JSD is injured and even if he wasn't, I think that dream is over. Sharples had a good game against Fiji and showed some creativity we haven't seen on the wing for a while but was poor against Oz. For Gloucester, he is growing every game and putting in some fine performances. Hope he gets another chance.

I would look to bring Wade and May on the wing for the future; May is due back in about a week's time, so I'd rule him out of this 6 nations but should feature in the Summer tour.

Not sure that I would pick it but I reckon Lancaster will go (assuming Ashton is ever injured):

11. Mike Brown
14. Ben Foden
15. Alex Goode

Nah he'd have a proper winger. Sharples and Monye both did well in the chance they had.

its worth remembering that the Fiji game aside all of Englands back 3 players have struggled to get on the score sheet since Lancatser took charge.

Ashton has been in the tries for Saracens when he gets a game.

I'm perfectly happy to see him given a run out against Italy or Scotland and see how he goes. I hope his attitude has changed since that Churchill Cup game because he was appalling that day and I never wanted to see him in an England shirt afterwards.

Wade is someone else i'd like to see and i wonder if it would be worthwhile playing them together with Foden/Brown at the back for some solidity. Whilst Varndell doesn't have a step so much he does have great top end speed, good acceleration and a decent hand off which is enough to beat most if he has some space. Afterall, Habana hardly has a step and he's done alright so far.....

England's problem with wingers since Woodward is largely down to us having had no obvious game plan, poor kicking strategy and execution, and a revolving door selection policy at centre.

Andy Robinson, Brian Ashton and Martin Johnson all seemed to select a gamebreaker now and again only to run for cover when they didn't explode into glory in the one or two games they were given.

Since 2003, I think all the following have played on the wing from time to time (leaving out players who have moved there during a game owing to injury):

Cohen
Lewsey
Robinson
Simpson Daniel
Balshaw
Tait
Strettle
Sackey
Monye
Ojo
Varndell
Vainikolo
Banahan
Delon Armitage
Cueto
Brown
Foden
Sharples
Ashton

I'm sure I've missed a few names too.

When we are nervous about our kicking game, we seem to like playing full backs, or "footballing wings" (i.e. Cueto). Ashton's rise to prominence coincided with his ability to find angles from broken play when the centres weren't providing any distribution. Our other strike wingers have been dropped when they couldn't turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.

Vainikolo and Banahan were attempts to find a superhero winger who could make some yards even when given near-hospital passes. After Ben Cohen, England appeared to forget how to put big wingers in space, or to use them as a decoy, so neither player really showed even close to their club form.

the "footballing" wings (sharples, monye, foden, armitage) have had a pretty decent try scoring record in the last few years mind. Cueto was a monster in his first iteration, less said about his second go the better I guess. Brown looks horribly out of position.
The out and out try scorers (Ashton, Strettle) given a go have been useless under Lancatser. Before that the lumps like Banahan (although he had a decent start) and Vanikolo were largely useless.
I CBA to look at the stats but I wouldnt be surprised to find the fullback/wings from the post 2003 list have roughly the same try scoring stats as the out and out wingers, even with Ashton skewing the statistics.

RF - you can add Tom Voyce to that list. He played against Samoa in 2005* and scored a couple of tries. He was very much an injury fill in at the time.

All things considered, Varndell appears to be way down the pecking order atm.

*Varndell made his England debut it that game from the bench.

I think we have to decide what we actually want our wingers to do. All kinds of wingers can work in a team with great success but only if the game plan suits their style of play

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
I CBA to look at the stats but I wouldnt be surprised to find the fullback/wings from the post 2003 list have roughly the same try scoring stats as the out and out wingers, even with Ashton skewing the statistics.

The 2003 side actually used a few full-backs/wings looking back - Robinson, Lewsey and Ballshaw all played both during the tournament I think (though not all starting). Cohen and Luger were the out and out wingers in the world cup squad with Lewsey, Robinson, Cohen as the first choice partnership and Ballshaw on the bench.

A few sides at the moment are utilising guys with FB experience on one wing to try and counteract the rare occasion when we see good box kicking. NZ and Australia are especially good at it with Corey Jane now one of the best wingers in the world. In Aus O'Connor and AAC have played just about everywhere in the backline between them and Drew Mitchell has plenty of experience at both wing and FB.

True although I'd argue that Robinson and Bradshaw were more wingers pretend ing to be fullbacks .
The elvs fundamentally changed the kicking game and made it more important to have 2 players who can cover the whole backfield area taking high baills then kicking them back. Without that rugby might become interesting to watch

Whilst I have not seen much of Varndell recently what I have seen is one of those players unable to make the step up into an international place. He looked slow on his feet and between the ears and did not commit to tackles and runs.

Clearl;y he has something to score all those club tries but I don't think he has the edge required to play internationals. See Bananaman, Monye for two others

Just a question has the position of Wing Three Quarter evolved to such an extent that just being a finisher is enough.The classical wing was condsidered a strike runner first plus a cover defender for the full back.
As an example take Joe Rockococo originally he was one of the great finishers,the game evolved questions were asked about him under the high ball.His game evolved too he started roaming the field creating chances for others.He did nothing wrong,he did`nt get the chances where he was playing Hosae Gear had one tremendous Season and replaced him,Gear has since lost it mostly and been over looked..Joe went North for cash can you blame him it used to be said"IF a wing scores loads of tries look at his centres ".
Is that the case with Varndell give him a shot IF he does`nt cut it at least you know.

New zealand played bloomin centres on wings at the world cup now we are playing full backs, it seems a total footballer is preferred to an explosive winger with shoddy defense or other glaring errors. On the varndell front he surely must get a chance as strettle, monye and sharples have impressed in patches but have also been royally pants in sections and his strike rate pace and size are impressive. Christian wade is a speedy elusive varmit and cant be far behind but wade's defense isn't there at the mo for a red rose.

Cumbrian wrote:It's wrong I know, but every time I look at him and start to convince myself he is worth another shot I remember back to the Churchill Cup final in 2009. His tackling attempts were pathetic bordering on cowardly and must have cost the Saxons upwards of 20 points.

A lot of rugby has been played since then and his try scoring record for Wasps speaks for itself, which is a positive. However, I mentally line him up against the likes of North or Cuthbert and can only see him copping out again.

Completely agree Cumbrian - I keep thinking back to that Saxons game too.
Varndell just struck me as being a lazey player.

Brown/Goode/Ashton are an excellent footballing/defensive combo, but won’t worry the best sides as an attacking/try-scoring force (except the ABs obviously). At least 2 of the back 3 need serious pace – that’s why Foden-Goode/Brown-Ashton would work. Hard on one of Brown or Goode – I’d start with Brown and have Goode on the bench for his greater versatility. Varndell's a bit too far down the pecking order.

BTW Neil Back holds the Jeff record for tries scored with 77, in 1998/99 alone he got 16...plus 6 test tries in that season.
Not bad for a forward

I thought Back had 50 odd jeff tries PSW? In test he has about 16/17 as well - as said very impressive for a forward.

king_carlos wrote:I thought Back had 50 odd jeff tries PSW? In test he has about 16/17 as well - as said very impressive for a forward.

The stats get confused because the Premiership likes to deny that there was a top division (with the same clubs and format) before they got the new sponsors in. Its like claiming that Varndell is top try scorer in Aviva Premiership history. The Courage Leagues started in 1987, Id count that as the beginning of the Jeff thats been rebranded a number of times since.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

king_carlos wrote:I thought Back had 50 odd jeff tries PSW? In test he has about 16/17 as well - as said very impressive for a forward.

The stats get confused because the Premiership likes to deny that there was a top division (with the same clubs and format) before they got the new sponsors in. Its like claiming that Varndell is top try scorer in Aviva Premiership history. The Courage Leagues started in 1987, Id count that as the beginning of the Jeff thats been rebranded a number of times since.

Fair enough really! Either way it's a pretty exceptional record for a guy who also got through a ridiculous amount of ground work. It does help try scoring to play in a Tigers side like the one he did - a fair few of those tries must've come from being at the back of driving mauls from the great Leicester line-out of the time.

I wonder if Varndell is more likely to get picked for the Lions than England. If he keeps scoring at the present rate he'll surely be considered, regardless of whether he gets picked for England.

As for the 2009 Churchill Cup, that came at the end of a season in which he only got 4 Premiership starts for Leicester. He could get away with being rusty against the likes of USA and Russia but got shown up against Ireland A.

We have loads of quick/strong but limited wings who will finish tries - Ashton, Sharples, Monye, Biggs, Benjamin, Varndell

We have very few high class players who can finish a try as well as create one with a bit of magic - Wade, JSD ... Johnny May?

Hence why I still argued JSD's case before he got injured, if him and May are fit for the summer I'd love to see one of them in the Argentina squad.

I'd love to see:

11. May
14. Ashton
15. Goode

Bit of everything in there. Sharples needs to work on his defence, was like a revolving door against Aus.

How effective a wing is does to a certain extent depend on the team you play for.

Wasps use their wingers very well as attacking forces.

I agree that Wade is above Varndell currently though.

Attacking wise both Wasps wingers are good enough but defensively the jury is still out.

I would try out Wade in the 6 nations. Ashton needs a boot up the backside.

Abendanons try from the weekend - straight down Varndells channel.
Perfect reason why he still isnt up to scratch defensively.

I agree propdavid london.

You've got to have that balance. Sharples in the game vs Australia was very poor defensively. You can't have that.

It's arguable whether Ashton is defensively up to scratch. Actually most would probably say no yet there he is in the right wing slot for England.

A winger probably needs to make less tackles than his fellow players but if he misses they are generally more costly in my opinion.

Is there any winger who you would say has the right balance?

Not really beshocked - you make some good points.

Biggs seems solid in D, and has pace.
Eastmond looks sharp and a good prospect but has been playing 13 recently.

It will proove unpopular but Ugo Monye is more rounded wing than most.
excellent D, Good boot, great under high ball and good pace (even if he has slowed up from previous seasons).

You also get the feeling that if Abendanon wasnt a bit shakey in D that he'd have caps by now either at 15 or on either wing.

I agree about Abendanon. He has had flashes of excellence but as you say he's not exactly solid.

Certainly won't get a look in at 15 with Brown,Goode and Foden fighting for that jersey.

I still think both wing spots are up for grabs though.

Biggs seems to get rated highly but remember when I think someone put down some stats (I think it was LondonTiger but might be wrong) Biggs didn't come off too well. He scored less tries and missed more tackles than his rivals. Stats don't tell the whole story of course but they do factor in a bit.

In my opinion Eastmond hasn't really shown enough to be considered - maybe the stats differ?

True that Monye seems to be left out. Maybe he deserves another punt.