The Official *England to Grand Slam Glory 2013* Thread

[Duty281]

First topic message reminder :

“It is not enough that we do our best; sometimes we must do what is required.”
Winston Churchill

In just over 4 weeks, Stuart Lancaster's England will start their quest for Grand Slam glory. It has to be said that this is England's best chance since 2003 for a Grand Slam. Really, for the Northern Hemisphere's biggest Rugby nation not to have clinched a Grand Slam for 10 years is a poor return. That will surely change on the 16th March.

“My tastes are simple: I am easily satisfied with the best.”
Winston Churchill

This amount of optimism stems from a hugely encouraging 2012 for the English rugby team. 4 wins out of 5 in last year's Six Nations with a fairly new team, then a character-building tour to South Africa, running South Africa and Australia close at the home of Rugby, before ending the year by beating the World Champions and running in 3 tries against them. 2013 will be the year that it all comes together for England.

"The English have an extraordinary ability for flying into a great calm."
Alexander Woollcott

2013 for England will start with a game home to Scotland. Unless there's a downpour, Scotland have little hope. Expect England to rack up 25+ points and a multitude of tries against inferior opposition.

"Let not England forget her precedence of teaching nations how to live."
John Milton

Then, away to Ireland. Often, the Irish are seen as a bogey team for England but let's be rational. England are better in every department as they proved in 2012. I'll be looking for a very very good result from England in this game.

"You must hate a Frenchman as you do the devil."
Lord Nelson

The third game will be the biggest of the lot. Home to the French at Twickenham. Beaten by England in Paris in 2012, France will be beaten by England in London in 2013. No mistake though, this game will be the toughest challenge that England will face in the 2013 Six Nations. I expect England to just about edge out the French.

"We few. We happy few. We band of brothers."
William Shakespeare

On the 10th March, England will be on the home straight. Home to Italy, mere cannon fodder against the mighty mighty England. 4 wins out of 4, Grand Slam in sight.

"Ever the faith endures, England, my England."
W.E. Henley

The crowning glory will be against England's little brother, Wales. No doubt they'll be up for this game, they love a game against their bigger brother and the chance to upset the odds. What is it Wales, 7 losses out of 7 since last year's Grand Slam? After a tough 20 minutes, England's superiority and class will show. Grand Slam clinched.

“You ask, what is our aim? I can answer in one word. It is victory, victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory, however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival.”
Winston Churchill

[gregortree]

we have italy at home!! and allready have a massive pts advantge blues!!

at present england massive favs, yes others are in it - but england will be odds on

The bookies will tell us who is who on the official odds. Personally I CBA to look it up, as I already know.

[mystiroakey]

exactly

[thebluesmancometh]

Of course you have a points advantage, Youve already played a disheveled Scotland.

Same way you moan about HC groups getting weak opponents you have to also put into context the 6N teams that get the weaker nations earlier.

As I said England are slight favourites (as I said pre tournament too) but nothing has been decided, and they could easily still end up on 6 points in 3rd or 4th!

[gregortree]

Of course you have a points advantage, Youve already played a disheveled Scotland.

As I said England are slight favourites (as I said pre tournament too) but nothing has been decided, and they could easily still end up on 6 points in 3rd or 4th!

wahahahah

[mystiroakey]

slight favs!!(had to check!! didnt need to but with that statement!!)

england are 2/7

ireland and wales are 7/1.

[thebluesmancometh]

And a booky has never been wrong or over excagorated odds to a larger potential customer base before have they??

Come on get your heads out of your ar5es, nothing has been decided yet, and nothing has changed from my opinion of England slight favourites.

What odds could you get on an English GS 2 years ago a day before the Ireland game? Pretty heavily on weren't they?

[mystiroakey]

ok then blues give me your slight fav odds- I will have a 100 on it

[mystiroakey]

"What odds could you get on an English GS 2 years ago a day before the Ireland game? Pretty heavily on weren't they"

no they were about 2/1- same as the win obviously!!

[thebluesmancometh]

I wouldn't be as crass as to give you odds Myster, but my view is pretty clear. England are slight favourites over Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy (in that order) as they have 2 home games and both teams are renowned for struggling there.

I would make England as slight favourites over France, and wouldn't go beyond that, as some of the other teams might have stormers same round (especially if Wales look strong)

[mystiroakey]

its not being crass Blues..

its about fronting up.

How about this then/..

I will give you 5 teams to win and I will take england.. I will also give you a 10 pt handicap(if two teams top the table and england wins on pts difference but less than 10 - you win!!)

loser pays 50 quid to a charity of the winners choice!

[thebluesmancometh]

Oh I see, big man after round 2 and all is going well, where were the bets and calls 3 weeks ago?

It's quite simple, I have named England as favourites, so why would I bet money against who I think is favourites, especially when of the 5 teams you give me one of the strongest is having a nightmare and another 2 aren't serious contenders?

You are a poor attempt at a wind up mate.

[mystiroakey]

I gave you a handicap and its for charity!

if you wanna discuss different terms i am all ears!!

not on a wind up- deeply serious

[thebluesmancometh]

[Ospreydragon]

"slight favs!!(had to check!! didnt need to but with that statement!!)

england are 2/7

ireland and wales are 7/1."

The bookies go by the numbers -- form and results.

Wales were favourites by the bookies to beat Irealnd and they lost. France were heavier favourites to beat Wales and lost. Not that the bookies care -- when the favourite loses, they make money.

England may well win the 6N and possibly a Slam. One thing SL seems to have grasped over his predecessor -- give youth a chance. England have some very good players to choose from and SL is giving lot of young talent its chances to shine. England are doing well but other teams will not stand still. All teams have dips in form.

[mystiroakey]

ospery the point is how much of a favourite they are..

No one (especially me!!) thinks that odds are a sure thing- trust me..Most bookies factor everything out anyway- prices are dictated by markets- any good bookie will win on any result!!

The point was about england being in a position to be big favs- not slight favs!

[mystiroakey]

blues i take it your not a betting man..

how about we just do it for bragging rights?

[thebluesmancometh]

They are not big favourites though, they have to come to Cardiff for a start where a Welsh side with confidence and a possible 3 game winning run will be a different animal. Not to mention France who will fight for every inch.

Slight favourites is still correct, same as before the tournament began

[Ospreydragon]

England are justifiably big favourites at the moment.

But let's wait and see what the next round or two is like.

As for Wales, the AIs are often a good indicator of what they achieve in the following 6N. On that score, Wales are not likely to do well this year, but a precedent can always be set!

[thebluesmancometh]

Don't get me wrong, I am a betting man, but I don't wait for my horses to get around the first corners looking good before I get all brave about it!

And I certainly don't bet against favourites out of some sort of misplaced pride, as I reiterate, I think England are slight favourites as I always have!

Do you generally wait a few seconds into the race before seeing the favourite take the lead then bet against him? Come on mun.

[mystiroakey]

blues what are you trying to say..

I have backed england for this allready pre tourny

allready posted that i have!

[AlastairW]

Don't get me wrong, I am a betting man, but I don't wait for my horses to get around the first corners looking good before I get all brave about it!

And I certainly don't bet against favourites out of some sort of misplaced pride, as I reiterate, I think England are slight favourites as I always have!

Do you generally wait a few seconds into the race before seeing the favourite take the lead then bet against him? Come on mun.

I haven't counted my chickens, and I'm not about to start. We're not even half way through yet (awesome! so much more to come!) and to think that any of the next 3 games are going to be walkover's is just ridiculous! SL seems to be able to keep the players focussed, grounded and looking no further ahead than the next game - a lot of fans should take a page from that book (although a little exuberance always spices things up! ).

This will be a test of mettle though, as all the pressure is on England now as the only team that can potentially achieve the slam, and it's good pressure cooker training (on & off pitch) for the run up to the RWC. We'll see, but i'm sure every team between now and the middle of March will look to scupper us, and why wouldn't they!

[mystiroakey]

This thread is for exuberanbce ALi!!

Get with the program.. you can be all prudent on the other threads

[AlastairW]

This thread is for exuberanbce ALi!!

Get with the program.. you can be all prudent on the other threads

I stand corrected!

[gregortree]

RSA - 2 matches, home away, one point from pinball crap shoot 'try' in it.
ABs - nuff said too many times already
Scots - blew them away
IRE - Eng toughed out a win in horrible weather at England's bogey ground
6N - Only unbeaten side so far in 6n, with massive points difference
But ... none of this form counts ... still no better chances than before 6N started apparently. Form & class, form & class & grit, England have it.

PS: hats off to Wales.. good performance.. but France seriously poor 0/2 and will NOT win at HQ.
So it will all be down to 'diff on the final Saturday. Woohoo

[Pal Joey]

AUS - handed them their fat ar@es on a plate. Home delivery too.

[Ospreydragon]

"PS: hats off to Wales.. good performance.. but France seriously poor 0/2 and will NOT win at HQ. " -- You might be right about France not winning at HQ -- they don't have a good record there.

However, I've read that the France squad has changed -- players have been dropped and Clerc has joined the squad. If Clerc is brought in to start, Fofana will move from wing to midfield. Several forwards have also been dropped, it seems, so it could be a significantly different France team, with maybe even some players playing in their best positions!

[gregortree]

Osprey,
This still looks like a France in disarray, with England now increasingly settled and confident on a good run. Before the 6N I was concerned only about the away days in Dublin and Cardiff.
England have come through the first, and I believe it is England's 6N, with only Wales left with the potential to spoil the fun. We've been there before, (was it 1999 ?) so I expect a crackerjack of a finale in March at the 'diff.

[Ospreydragon]

gregortree, France have only lost two games -- they won all their matches in the Autumn, and were the only NH to do so. I would never write off France, because of the players they have. They are capable of more -- and they may well produce it if they play people in their best positions. The French players are now getting some serious stick in the press -- so they might go into their shells or show a bit more flair in attack. France need to change their halfback pairing and move Fofana to his proper place in midfield, for starters. Those changes alone could make them a very different prospect, but it appears that the pack will change too. All to play for!

[Sugarlump]

gregortree, France have only lost two games -- they won all their matches in the Autumn, and were the only NH to do so. I would never write off France, because of the players they have. They are capable of more -- and they may well produce it if they play people in their best positions. The French players are now getting some serious stick in the press -- so they might go into their shells or show a bit more flair in attack. France need to change their halfback pairing and move Fofana to his proper place in midfield, for starters. Those changes alone could make them a very different prospect, but it appears that the pack will change too. All to play for!

I agree, I don't think Stuart Lancaster will be celebrating a job done yet. Saint-Andre ha made some strange selections but he is a decent manager and French have some wonderful talent at their disposal. They were caught cold by Italy and then lost an arm wrestle with Wales in wet conditions on the worst playing surface since the Millenium Stadium was a building site! When France come to Twickenham they'll be dangerous like a wounded animal (well used cliche I know) with nothing to lose.

That said, I have total respect and faith in Lancaster that he'll deliver a team that has it's mind firmly on the task which is the next game

[gregortree]

England v France

France won at Twickenham in 2005 (6n) and 2007 (Pre RWC test)
England won at Twickenham in 2007,2009,2011 (6n)
France won at Paris St Denis 2004,2006,2010 in 6n
England won at Paris St Denis 2007 (RWC) and 2008, 2012 in 6N

It is 5- all in the 6N over last 10 years, with England losing just one 6N home game 8 years ago. During this period England were considered a pretty average side by most people, ahd beat France home and away.
But New England are no longer that average side. I think latest form and home advantage will both be decisively in England's favour.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

"PS: hats off to Wales.. good performance.. but France seriously poor 0/2 and will NOT win at HQ. " -- You might be right about France not winning at HQ -- they don't have a good record there.

However, I've read that the France squad has changed -- players have been dropped and Clerc has joined the squad. If Clerc is brought in to start, Fofana will move from wing to midfield. Several forwards have also been dropped, it seems, so it could be a significantly different France team, with maybe even some players playing in their best positions!

Itll still be one without a fly half worth a spot and without a specialist fullback (maybe they can borrow one of ours?)

We would be pretty lucky to get a France that bad turn up for the third week in a row though.

The real point here is that England are good enough to beat France when they are playing well, if they do so themselves. If both teams have an off day, England can still win. Ridiculous as with any game (hi last 2 weekends) to say forgone conclusion but England were moderate favourites for this match pre tournament, now they have to be even stronger favourites. Theyve been playing the better rugby and look the better side. Frances record at Twickers is poor. Vince Clerc isnt going to change that on his own.

[Ospreydragon]

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler, People are not giving Wales the credit they deserve. Although both sides played conservative rugby because they both lacked confidence and were desperate to reduce errors and not concede easy points, anyone re-running a recording of that match will see Wales' huge defensive effort -- the likes of Picamoles and Bastareaud (although the latter had a few good runs) were stopped in their tracks. Wales' lineout was also much improved.

Clerc on his own clearly won't get France the win, but his addition to the squad along with the others suggests that PSA is learning the lessons, one of which is not to play a great centre out of position. If PSA selects Clerc, a winger, on the wing, the likelihood is that Fofana will play in his proper position in midfield. I also suspect that Michalak will not be picked at 10 and I wouldn't be surprised to see Para at 9. The likes of Nyanga and Domingo are also useful call-ups:

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3820_8492910,00.html

England are clearly favourites against France -- HQ has not been a happy hunting ground for France. France have now lost 5 6N games on the trot, a new record. A loss at HQ would make it 6. The pressure is on PSA and the French players. I would be amazed if selectorial changes and possibly tactical changes were not made by France, because they are really under the kosh.

[mystiroakey]

This is the thing- england have allways been able to win ugly(definition of a good team) - france cant.

If both teams play to there strengths Engaland will still win..


France are looked upon as an egima type team to others(including NZ)

But to england they really are just another team. We do not fear them as fans or players..

SL and the team will respect them . But i am happy to be confident.

If france have this genius like game in them.. They have never showed it against england. So why should i think they will do it in two weeks time

[Duty281]

Geoff Parling: England will handle pressure

Jolly good, England remaining calm in the face of expectation ahead of the French game. We're sailing into calm, clear water.

[yappysnap]

I think France will have at least one change in the front five, they'll also have Parts and maybe Trinc Du, as well as Fofona at 12 and proper back three players in the backs.

With these changes they'll be a wholly different animal and far tougher to beat, England still can but no one should expect the France of rounds 1 and 2 to turn up.

[Duty281]

Lancaster's 3 Point Plan

* Frighten his squad by making them watch France excel in the 2011 World Cup final.
* Have the ­courage to change a winning team.
* Target his misfiring ­lineout.

I fully understand that preparation is vital, so I'll be watching these over the next week:

England v France 2003
England v France 2009
France v England 2012
We few, we happy few...

“This England never did, nor never shall, lie at the proud foot of a conqueror.”
William Shakespeare

[gregortree]

Not forgetting
Crécy 1346
Calais 1347
Poitiers 1356 (England)
Poitiers 1372 (France)
Azincourt 1415

So 4-1 to England, (well England + a few Welsh archers from over the border).
All away fixtures.
France last won in England 1066.

[gregortree]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17300878

and this

[beshocked]

Not forgetting
Crécy 1346
Calais 1347
Poitiers 1356 (England)
Poitiers 1372 (France)
Azincourt 1415

So 4-1 to England, (well England + a few Welsh archers from over the border).
All away fixtures.
France last won in England 1066.

Don't forget the battle of Verneuil (1424). Not many people know about that one.

France didn't win in 1066. William was Norman. Read the book 1000 years of annoying the French.

[Duty281]

Not forgetting
Crécy 1346
Calais 1347
Poitiers 1356 (England)
Poitiers 1372 (France)
Azincourt 1415

So 4-1 to England, (well England + a few Welsh archers from over the border).
All away fixtures.
France last won in England 1066.

Don't forget the battle of Verneuil (1424). Not many people know about that one.

France didn't win in 1066. William was Norman. Read the book 1000 years of annoying the French.

Very true that. The French hated the Normans just as much as we did.

[Jimpy]

Did we hate the Normans?

I thought that the 'hatred' evolved post invasion as William sought to expand his territory, taking land from the English and levvying heavy taxes...

Prior to the invasion, which could be argued legitimate (William had a plausible claim for the throne), i'm not sure that the Normans were as 'hated' as is often made out.

[lostinwales]

Normans were very good at assimilating themselves into the local cultures. William was a nasty piece of work though

I also remember a few years back a mayor in Normandy basically saying that locally they had more in common with the English than with Paris

[Pal Joey]

Yeah, it's all part of ongoing transformations of societies though isn't it? The Normans forced their world view upon the French... and then took an even newer version across the Channel.

Similar processes are in play now except rather than one dominant culture... we may have 150 or more cultures (all 'invited' but a few of them more dominant than the others) who have all been given the freedom to express their voice & will. Name all the countries in the world which do that on such a monumental scale. Imagine what things will be like in another 1000 years time? It will be many times more unrecognisable compared to 1066-2013.

'We' are a pretty accommodating bunch... aren't we? Australia is no different. Arabic is now the second most spoken language in Sydney, Mandarin the 2nd across all Australia. We educate them, give them the means to improve their lives but it seems that is not enough for some.

That's why we must never forget Duty's red quotations from the famous minds throughout history.

They didn't say these words for no good reason and most of those essential propositions are still valid (more so than ever!) and will always apply. Forget them (or misinterpret them) at our own peril... because one thing is for sure: Certain people may think we (the West) are too heavy handed towards others at present (and have been throughout modern history) but we are also not that heavy handed... at the same time. It may all pale into insignificance if the pendulum were to swing the other way. Wouldn't that be a pity?

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

South Africans and New2 Zealanders are busy assimilating themselves all over our rugby and cricket teams. Pretty soon we'll be a hybrid dominant civilisation that can crush the Aussies once and for all

[Pal Joey]

That's where we're heading mate.

Was I out of line above? I probably sound like a bit of an Anglo Saxon supremest but I saw this short doco with a young woman (from Bangladesh... but brought up here, very educated and articulate) talking to Germaine Greer. They were both bagging everyone... Britain, Australia, NZ. Having a snide laugh at our expense!

Then someone (a sports coach of all people) asked the young lady - "Do you want to feel like an Australian and give something back to the country that gave you a chance to be where you are now?" She said "No... I do owe this country but I don't want to give anything back." Made my blood boil that did! (our ABC fosters this type of smart-alec beahviour)... no sense of duty to her new country whatsoever) Different to a generation or two ago.

[AlastairW]

No LB. Well written rant mate, and one of the great things about our society is freedom of speech - so say as you please. I'll even get you a soap box if you end up over here in Hyde park.

As for your saying that we should not forget Duty's red quote I am reminded myself of the adage 'those that do not know their history are doomed to repeat it'. The only half exception I have is that, in my opinion, Churchill was talking about the United Kingdom of GB, not just England. but meh.

[Duty281]

Morgan to Return against Italy

Injuries, injuries, how I curse these injuries! Morgan will miss the French game but may be back against Italy and OK for the Welsh game. Same situation for Burns. Back-up centre Joseph is out for a fortnight with a toe injury, whilst Flood and Haskell missed training today.

France coach: England tie is our grand slam

That's what happens with these smaller countries! They target winning games against much bigger nations as their objective in tournaments!

Youngs: France game is our focus

Cause we're not saying 'Grand Slam' just yet.

[Pal Joey]

Even a "Big Bertha" would be a fairly decent achievement.

[Duty281]

3 changes as expected then for the biggest game of the tournament:

England: 15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 8 caps); 14. Chris Ashton (Saracens, 31 caps), 13. Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 18 caps), 12. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 13 caps), 11. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 13 caps); 10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 14 caps), 9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 30 caps); 1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 7 caps), 2. Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 44 caps), 3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 37 caps), 4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 6 caps), 5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 14 caps), 6. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 17 caps), 7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 14 caps), 8. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 15 caps).
Replacements: 16. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 6 caps), 17. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 24 caps), 18. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 6 caps), 19. James Haskell (London Wasps, 47 caps), 20. Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers, 5 caps), 21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 38 caps), 22. Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 54 caps), 23. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester, 2 caps).

Personally, I'm expecting a tight, close game, with the scores level or one team up by 3 at HT, and then England's bench strength to swing the game England's way. England 19-12 France.

"There is a forgotten, nay almost forbidden word, which means more to me than any other. That word is England."
Sir Winston Churchill

[nobbled]

3 changes as expected then for the biggest game of the tournament:

until the next game.

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