Tennis Expert Needed!

First topic message reminder :

As you may be aware we are running a greatest of all time competition across the site and a number of tennis players are included. Therefore we need your help on writing an article for one or two players and their merits to be considered GOAT.

Are any of you up for helping out?

OMG wat a thread, missed the fun involved, specifically Bopara > Bradman

summerblues wrote:I know absolutely nothing about cricket but I know that Bradman is not the best sportsperson of all time. If you can spot the error in the following quote from wikipedia, you will no doubt agree:

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Bradman)

Sir Donald George Bradman, AC (27 August 1908 – 25 February 2001), often referred to as "The Don", was an Australian cricketer, widely acknowledged as the greatest Test batsman of all time. Bradman's career Test batting average of 99.94 is often cited as statistically the greatest achievement by any sportsman in any major sport.

I'm with you on this. No cricketer can ever be considered the greatest sportsperson, it's a minority sport.

The first ever test match was held in 1877. How much has the game expanded in 136 years? We now have a grand total of just nine test teams and one of those can't currently be ranked because they aren't playing enough!

I'd be inclined to say the greatest sportsman of all time is Carl Lewis. Seven individual Olympic golds in three different events across four games (Los Angeles, Seoul, Barcelona, Atlanta) plus two relay golds. We are talking blue riband events too - 100m, 200m and long jump. He broke world records in the 100m and long jump and his indoor long jump record still stands after 24 years.

Spaghetti-Hans wrote:The usually knowledgeable and astute Bogbrush has been defeated by The Main Event Lads.

Bogbrush's failure to address our key points is an unadulterated cry of surrender.

It's understandable. No sane individual could argue that Wilt Chamberlain was better than Michael Jordan, that Don Bradman was better than Sachin Tendulkar or that Willie Renshaw was better than Double A - Andre Agassi.

Don't be too harsh on Bogbrush, he's usually on point with his commentary. He just got out-thought and out-foxed by a few too many good men.

My fault was in not spotting the wind up until about three posts in. I accept, you snagged me.

carl lewis, druggy!. but thats another story

summerblues wrote:I know absolutely nothing about cricket but I know that Bradman is not the best sportsperson of all time. If you can spot the error in the following quote from wikipedia, you will no doubt agree:

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Bradman)

Sir Donald George Bradman, AC (27 August 1908 – 25 February 2001), often referred to as "The Don", was an Australian cricketer, widely acknowledged as the greatest Test batsman of all time. Bradman's career Test batting average of 99.94 is often cited as statistically the greatest achievement by any sportsman in any major sport.

Well if one is going to use statistics as the primary guide for determining the greatest sportsman in any major sport, then Phil Taylor has to be that person. Not only can he reach an average of 120 odd in a darts match, but he has consistently maintained an average I reckon of around 95-100 throughout the last decade.

It's all pointlessly subjective. Is there now any way we can avoid 3 pages on 'darts is not a sport'?

bogbrush wrote:It's all pointlessly subjective. Is there now any way we can avoid 3 pages on 'darts is not a sport'?

According to the great Eric Bristow, he believes that darts is a one-on-one sport as there is nowhere for players to hide, unlike is the case in team based sports like football, rugby and kabbadi (which must be rising in popularity as India's primary sport now that it seems there national team are firing blanks in their popular sport of cricket).

If it wasn't for his rather (embarassing) record against Nadal, Fed would have proabably got the title by default. Standing things like that:

- Michael Jordan
- Tiger Woods
- Eddie Merxx
- Wayne Gretzky
- Hermann Maier

Are all sportsmen who literally placed themseves out of the competition in their own field. Bjorn Borg also did it, but, because of his early retirement , could not produce the statistics required to be placed in the same league.

Jeremy_Kyle wrote:If it wasn't for his rather (embarassing) record against Nadal, Fed would have proabably got the title by default. Standing things like that:

- Michael Jordan
- Tiger Woods
- Eddie Merxx
- Wayne Gretzky
- Hermann Maier

Are all sportsmen who literally placed themseves out of the competition in their own field. Bjorn Borg also did it, but, because of his early retirement , could not produce the statistics required to be placed in the same league.

Jack Nicklaus rather than Tiger Woods for me in the Golf. Don't agree with your assessment of Bjorn Borg as even if he didn't retire early he still wouldn't have done enough to get considered as the greatest tennis player ever, as he never won the US Open and Australian Open.

Tiger the only player to hold all majors at the same time

Jeremy_Kyle wrote:Tiger the only player to hold all majors at the same time

But Nicklaus has managed to maintain his top level of performance for more than 1 decade unlike Tiger Woods, and has also performed when playing as part of a team in the Ryder Cup.

But wasn't golf cr@p back then?

bogbrush wrote:But wasn't golf cr@p back then?

Not really as there were great players playing back then like Arnold Palmer, Tom Watson, Tony Jacklin etc.

But weren't they just looking good in a cr@p era? I mean, they were physical wimps.

HM Murdoch wrote:

summerblues wrote:I know absolutely nothing about cricket but I know that Bradman is not the best sportsperson of all time. If you can spot the error in the following quote from wikipedia, you will no doubt agree:

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Bradman)

Sir Donald George Bradman, AC (27 August 1908 – 25 February 2001), often referred to as "The Don", was an Australian cricketer, widely acknowledged as the greatest Test batsman of all time. Bradman's career Test batting average of 99.94 is often cited as statistically the greatest achievement by any sportsman in any major sport.

I'm with you on this. No cricketer can ever be considered the greatest sportsperson, it's a minority sport.

The first ever test match was held in 1877. How much has the game expanded in 136 years? We now have a grand total of just nine test teams and one of those can't currently be ranked because they aren't playing enough!

I'd be inclined to say the greatest sportsman of all time is Carl Lewis. Seven individual Olympic golds in three different events across four games (Los Angeles, Seoul, Barcelona, Atlanta) plus two relay golds. We are talking blue riband events too - 100m, 200m and long jump. He broke world records in the 100m and long jump and his indoor long jump record still stands after 24 years.

I used to be a huge Lewis fan until it slowly dawned on me that he was as much a PED user as Ben Johnson.

Three failed drug tests - and those are the ones we know about!

Undoubtedly a great athlete but that era of athletics was riddled with drug use.

In fact I'm not sure it's any different now.



emancipator

Tony Jacklin? FFS! No mention of Gary Player shows how shocking your golf knowledge really is.

#iknowmoreaboutsportsthanyoudo

I agree, I'd never champion a cricketer as all-round GOAT.

I also agree about Lewis, it's disappointing. I feel I can't take any runner on face value.

I actually hadn't heard about the Carl Lewis drug test failures!

That's so disappointing. Even though he claims it was accidental (which I possibly could accept), it only takes a suspicion of PED use and the whole legacy is undermined.

In that case, I'd say the GOAT is between Michael Johnson and Usain Bolt.

I would also consider Federer to be right up there. I'd put him ahead of Michael Jordan. Similar brilliance but I'd always put the individual athlete ahead of the team athlete.

HM Murdoch wrote:I actually hadn't heard about the Carl Lewis drug test failures!

That's so disappointing. Even though he claims it was accidental (which I possibly could accept), it only takes a suspicion of PED use and the whole legacy is undermined.

In that case, I'd say the GOAT is between Michael Johnson and Usain Bolt.

I would also consider Federer to be right up there. I'd put him ahead of Michael Jordan. Similar brilliance but I'd always put the individual athlete ahead of the team athlete.

Yeah.. very dissapointing.

I tried to give him the benefit of doubt for years.

Federer is a better contender than Bolt. Fed has performed at the highest level week in and week out for 10 years. Bolt basically puts in a few great performances every now and then. Bolt's records will be broken sooner than Fed's imo. Bolt doesn't have any amazing consistent streaks like Ed Moses or Lewis in the long jump. It's much harder to build a consistent legacy over many years than to put in a few brilliant perfomances every world champs (2 years) or every OG.

Yes but Bolt can beat his biggest rival on the biggest stage.

Emancipator will unleash his fury now.



I better

Don't worry Amrit, your quite pathetic attempts to demean Fed's record at every opportunity in the GOAT thread have not gone amiss. Just shows that you are actually a Nadal fan first and foremost, tennis is an after thought. I'm quite happy to defend the rightful claims to GOAThood of both Federer and Graf/Navratilova because I actually believe that it takes something really special to excel and dominate in a sport as tough as pro tennis.

When the time is right I will shoot you down in flames



emancipator

Your claim against Bolt was ridiculous 'he puts in a performance every now and then'.
I mean c'mon, do you want him to film himself running in his back garden every week and send it to you?
He performs in the big stages, and has done very well in all competitions he took part in (either first or second). Only once he was disqualified for jumping the gun, apart from that he's been superb.

As for the GOAT thread, Adam quoted someone who said Ali isn't GOAT because his record against his major rival was not good enough... but didn't mention that with Federer??? That was weird.

Donald Dinnie

You've misunderstood my point regarding Bolt.

There are better candidates in track and field than him.

One of the parameters for greatness is longevity and consistency. It is tougher to continuously win and maintain that dominance over years than it is to win just the big events. Of course Bolt has won his fair share of grand prix meets but he has never put together (yet) a dominant streak of wins against all comers in all places, unlike Ed Moses and Lewis who both went unbeaten in their respective events for 10+ years, and of course they won the big ones during those periods too.

Bolt steals the lime light because of his charisma and because the sprints are blue-ribboned events, but is his 100m or even 200m record going to stand longer than J. Edwards triple jump record (since 1993)? I doubt it very much. Blake is already threatening Bolt in the 200m.

A tennis analogy would be Serena vs Navratilova. If Serena were to reach 18 slams and stop there I would not place her above Martina because the latter performed at the highest level consistently for many years, whereas Serena has picked and chosen many of her battles and essentially really only turned up for the big ones.

I'm not trying to demean Bolt and his achievements but we're discussing the GOAT across all sports. Lots of factors need to be considered. There have been other athletes who have had as outstanding achievements as Bolt but who have also maintained a consistent dominance greater than his.

DJ would probably know more about this than me.



emancipator

Bolts career is not yet finished.

Seb Coes 800m record is one of the best.

emancipator wrote:You've misunderstood my point regarding Bolt.

There are better candidates in track and field than him.

One of the parameters for greatness is longevity and consistency. It is tougher to continuously win and maintain that dominance over years than it is to win just the big events. Of course Bolt has won his fair share of grand prix meets but he has never put together (yet) a dominant streak of wins against all comers in all places, unlike Ed Moses and Lewis who both went unbeaten in their respective events for 10+ years, and of course they won the big ones during those periods too.

Bolt steals the lime light because of his charisma and because the sprints are blue-ribboned events, but is his 100m or even 200m record going to stand longer than J. Edwards triple jump record (since 1993)? I doubt it very much. Blake is already threatening Bolt in the 200m.

A tennis analogy would be Serena vs Navratilova. If Serena were to reach 18 slams and stop there I would not place her above Martina because the latter performed at the highest level consistently for many years, whereas Serena has picked and chosen many of her battles and essentially really only turned up for the big ones.

I'm not trying to demean Bolt and his achievements but we're discussing the GOAT across all sports. Lots of factors need to be considered. There have been other athletes who have had as outstanding achievements as Bolt but who have also maintained a consistent dominance greater than his.

DJ would probably know more about this than me.



emancipator

I actually Stick with Emacni's points here, Blake is so awesome, I was surprised when Bolt edged him in olympics, but anybody who saw the race would know it was so close, it won't be the same when they run in the next Olympics, Blake will shatter all of Bolt's record sooner or later. Blake's techinque is so better than Bolt and with age he gonna perform at a level unseen in tracks.

I couldn't nominate a 100m runner for GOAT. To me, the 100m races are very much under a cloud of drug use. Given that we know for a fact that some past winners, like Justin Gatlin, Linford Christie and Ben Johnson, failed drugs tests (and others may have been smart enough to beat the system) when you see an athlete yards ahead of everyone else trying to slow down so it doesn't look so embrassing (Bolt, 2008), well if that doesn't make you at least a teensy bit suspicious, nothing well. And I heard the Jamaicans don't do any drugs tests.

Does anyone think Messi is a contender. Bit early as he's only half way though a year, so maybe should be discounted for similar reasons as Nadal.

bogbrush wrote:Seb Coes 800m record is one of the best.

WAS one of the best - two people have gone faster! Wilson Kipketer and David Rudisha.

Rudisha's performance in the Olympics was fantastic but ended up being a bit overshadowed by other stories.

HM Murdoch wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Seb Coes 800m record is one of the best.

WAS one of the best - two people have gone faster! Wilson Kipketer and David Rudisha.

Rudisha's performance in the Olympics was fantastic but ended up being a bit overshadowed by other stories.

I know it was passed, but I believe records never cease to exist. It's 32 years old and is still only 0.9% slower than the latest. Given advances in training and equipment I think it's the 'better'run.

The 100m and 200m records have dropped c3% and 2.5% in the same time.

So is anyone doing Lance Armstrong?

legendkillarV2 wrote:So is anyone doing Lance Armstrong?

Sheryl Crow was at one point

JuliusHMarx wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:So is anyone doing Lance Armstrong?

Sheryl Crow was at one point

Is she saying he used PEDs?

bogbrush wrote:

HM Murdoch wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Seb Coes 800m record is one of the best.

WAS one of the best - two people have gone faster! Wilson Kipketer and David Rudisha.

Rudisha's performance in the Olympics was fantastic but ended up being a bit overshadowed by other stories.

I know it was passed, but I believe records never cease to exist. It's 32 years old and is still only 0.9% slower than the latest. Given advances in training and equipment I think it's the 'better'run.

The 100m and 200m records have dropped c3% and 2.5% in the same time.

In those terms, it's right up there.

The best 'record' ever must surely be Bob Beamon's long jump. Set in 1968 and only one person, on one occasion (Mike Powell in 1991) has ever jumped further.

Yep that was truely remarkable although the altitude may have helped.

Lewis came close on many occasions and has had wind assisted marks over that distance.

The long jump is a strange one in that it really hasn't moved on in over 20 years in terms of distance. Lewis's winning jump in 1984 would have won him gold at this years OG by some distance.

yeah if anything it's gone backwards!

bogbrush wrote:

HM Murdoch wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Seb Coes 800m record is one of the best.

WAS one of the best - two people have gone faster! Wilson Kipketer and David Rudisha.

Rudisha's performance in the Olympics was fantastic but ended up being a bit overshadowed by other stories.

I know it was passed, but I believe records never cease to exist. It's 32 years old and is still only 0.9% slower than the latest. Given advances in training and equipment I think it's the 'better'run.

The 100m and 200m records have dropped c3% and 2.5% in the same time.

Huge Coe fan here and it was an amazing record...but im sorry Rudisha's run was better for two reasons. Firstly it wasnt a low key European meet...it was in an Olympic final with some of the other fastest guys in history in the race. And secondly....he ran the whole race from the front, a staggering thing to have the guts to do in such a massive race, Coe had a pacemaker for around 500 metres.
Rudisha's run, all things considered, may well be the greatest in mens track history. And I was there to watch it live, brilliant.

emancipator wrote:Yep that was truely remarkable although the altitude may have helped.

Lewis came close on many occasions and has had wind assisted marks over that distance.

The long jump is a strange one in that it really hasn't moved on in over 20 years in terms of distance. Lewis's winning jump in 1984 would have won him gold at this years OG by some distance.

Yes, that's a good point. It makes me wonder if that is a record that is already pretty much at the limit of human ability.

There must be a limit of what is humanly possible. Maybe that limit is about 9 metres?

HM Murdoch wrote:

emancipator wrote:Yep that was truely remarkable although the altitude may have helped.

Lewis came close on many occasions and has had wind assisted marks over that distance.

The long jump is a strange one in that it really hasn't moved on in over 20 years in terms of distance. Lewis's winning jump in 1984 would have won him gold at this years OG by some distance.

Yes, that's a good point. It makes me wonder if that is a record that is already pretty much at the limit of human ability.

There must be a limit of what is humanly possible. Maybe that limit is about 9 metres?

But Mike Powell holds the records for the longest Jump right?