Lions - Telfer on the 7 shirt

Interesting views from Telfer (from ESPNScrum.com):

Former Lions No.8 and coach Jim Telfer has called on current head coach Warren Gatland to not overlook the claims of either Justin Tipuric or Ross Rennie as open-side flanker on the Tour of Australia.

Wales captain Sam Warburton is the leading candidate to wear the number seven jersey when the Lions begin their Test campaign against Australia in Brisbane on June 22, though England captain Chris Robshaw has recently forced his way into the reckoning following England's victory over New Zealand in December.

"I think that Warren Gatland has a few players that fall between the six and seven role, Chris Robshaw is one and Sam Warburton another," Telfer told The Rugby Paper. "If you look at Robshaw he started life at six and only moved across in the last couple of years and I don't think Warburton really falls into the role of seven either.

"Justin Tipuric is as good as you can get at a genuine seven in Britain and I'd say Ross Rennie, although a little injury-prone, is the other player in that mould.

Telfer was forwards' coach on the victorious 1997 tour to South Africa when he made the surprise selection of Paul Wallace and Tom Smith as Test props over the more-established Jason Leonard and Graham Rowntree. He also chose Richard Hill as his open-side for the first two Tests, then replaced him with Neil Back for the third and Telfer would like to see someone in a similar mould to the former England flankers given the chance to nullify Australia's David Pocock.

"I would liken them (Tipuric and Rennie) to the All Blacks flanker from the Seventies Graham Mourie, in that they provide that link between forwards and backs," he said. "Warburton and Robshaw don't really provide that linking ability and that's why I don't think they really fit in with what you need. They don't really offload like you would want them to. Tipuric and Rennie maybe don't have the strength of a Richie McCaw, but I would like to see them given the chance."

For what it's worth, I completely agree although this is bound to set hares running.

The interesting thing about this is that whilst you can disagree with Big Jim, absolutely nobody can make the accusation that he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Incidentally, in which piece of granite is it written that "Sam Warburton is the leading candidate to wear the number seven jersey"? The press keep babbling this like it's scripture, yet I have seen absolutely no indication on current form that this should be the case.

Currently at openside, I really like Rennie. I think he is an outstanding player, if a little injury prone. I think it was generally accepted than Warbs would be the starting 7, but his performances in the Six Nations and AIsd have not been up to scratch. He is showing glimpses again, but until he strings together some consistent performances, he's got serious competition.

The Warburton vs Tipuric feud for the 7 shirt could get really interesting during the Six Nations.

What do people actual mean when they say "providing a link between the forwards and backs"?
Won't any of the others forwards pass to a back?

Oh and Robshaw stands in at first reciever quite a bit, pretty linky you'd think

Telfer has always been a big advocate of the traditional fetcher/link man 7, rather than the bigger more versatile back rower fulfilling that position.

In 1997 he actually wanted Back to play 7 rather than Hill in the 1st Test (there's a great selection discussion on the Living with the Lions 1997 video/DVD).

His opinion always carried my respect, even if I don't agree. On this occassion, whilst I think both Tipuric and Rennie are in with a shout, I currently think two from Robshaw, Wood, Warburton and SOB will go. Clearly the 6 Nations could (and likely will no doubt) shake things up a bit.

Agree with mattygoat, robshaws an excellent link between forwards and backs?!?! - Not sure I agree with Telf's on that.

Alas, I doubt we'll see Tipuric overtaking Warburton this 6nations, Sam is the squads golden boy and captain (and you can understand after his world cup and wales winning the GS - although the latter didnt have too much to do with him...)

Tips has been on fire for about 2 years running now though, he needs to be given a real chance in the starting lineup. Perhaps thatll be the kick up the jacksy Warbs needs to up his game too.

We saw it with Ryan Jones, injured but rushed back regularly and selected as captain regardless of his form. He got dropped, went away worked on his game and hes been in fine form ever since for both ospreys and wales.

If there's a weakness to Robshaw's game it is his pace and his handling skills. I don't mean in a pre-determined move, where as you say Quins often have him carrying from first receiver, but rather in loose play where he's needed to act more as an auxillary back, taking the ball when he isn't necessarily expecting it and popping up or passing the ball down the line (as the likes of Tipuric, Rennie and formerly Back used to do).

Granted that Robshaw has much improved his handling and passing skills (I remember being at the Stoop a few seasons back where he chucked the ball several feet above the winger's head), but I still would not class him as an out and out 7 in the same mould as a Back, George Smith or Rennie. That's not to say he shouldn't play 7 for England. With Wood at 6 there's a nice balance there, and both are excellent allround backrow players, so compliment each other.

I do see the point Telfer is making. Hill was an excellent 7 in 1997, but he wasn't the same fetcher/link man as Back. Back was a pure poacher. Hill's breakdown skills were fantastic in a different way. Better at slowing the opposition down and negating them rather than turning over the ball.

I do think there's a valid distinction here.

I hope Rennie get's back playing soon - there's no stand out 7's for Scotland just now and I don't want to see Kelly Brown playing anywhere but 6 for us!

I think Tipuric is the best option for the Lions 7 jersey along with Steffan Armitage.

I am not sure I'd even bring Waurburton to Australia the way he is currently playing. He has looked really poor when I have seen him apart from the game against Munster on Saturday. Maybe play Warbs at 6 and Tipuric at 7 during the 6N??

I would have to disagree on the point about Robshaw not being a link. Yes he's certainly in the mould of a 6 1/2 but his linking play is generally excellent. He does offload well, at least at club level and is often seen in the FH role for Quins. What more linking does one want?

Robshaw's passing and handling is exceptional for a back in broken play too, the only time I've seen him struggle was in his first cap as captain

Thing that puts me off Robshaw is he is too slow for my liking. Look at the difference between Hooper and Robshaw in the England V Aus game - Hooper was a dynamo and at most rucks before anyone else.

Just personal preference but I like my 7s to be dynamic and have some pace - which is why I like Hooper, Tupiric and Rennie

My Lions backrow would probably be

6-O'Brien
7-Tipuric/Armitage
8-Heaslip (Denton is better if he finds form)

I have been saying for some time that Warburton on present form should be no where near the Lions shirt.

Tiperic has been playing alott better than Warburton, yet Warburton always gets picked because he is the Captain.

For me Robshaw or Armatage for the 7s shirt. Have not seen Rennie play lately so cannot comment on his stye of play.

Has for Robshaw being a bit on the slow side. If you watched him against New Zealand, then you would of noticed that he was always one of the first to the break down.

Why exactly are these 3 (Rennie,Warburton and Tipuric) so highly touted for the Lions?

beshocked wrote:Why exactly are these 3 (Rennie,Warburton and Tipuric) so highly touted for the Lions?

Indeed. The 6N is going to be the real decider. On recent international form so far it would have to be Robshaw or Wood.

I would argue Wood is going to be going for the 6 jersey (against Brown/Lydiate/Ferris/SOB - what a battle for the shirt that'll be).

Robshaw is going to be the man gunning for the 7 jersey. Warbs is gatlands golden boy so stands a big chance. Not sure Armitage will get a look in, possible bolter along with the likes of wilkinson/henson

I actually think Beattie could be the number 8 for the lions if he's back in the scotland squad and carries his form through the 6nations. When hes on form, hes an animal. Faletau/Heaslip/Denton/Morgan are all about evens atm for me.

beshocked wrote:Why exactly are these 3 (Rennie,Warburton and Tipuric) so highly touted for the Lions?

I have watched Rennie the most so I can make reference to a number of recent performances - such as putting Dusautoir in his pocket last year against Toulouse and against Australia last June (Scotland winning 9-6), Rennie had the aggregate highest number of clean breaks, defenders beaten, offloads and turnovers in the Scotland team, with the most notable statistic being an incredible 22 tackles attributed to him solely. The Sydney Morning Herald (not the most impartial paper at the best of times) gave Rennie the credit for having shut down Pocock so effectively.

His form has been less good this season - but then again, he has been injured. What would really pee me off would be if his stock is seen to have fallen because he's playing for one of the worst Edinburgh sides in recent years.

Beshocked - I think the point is more about "specialist" 7's rather than any individuals in particular, albeit that Tipuric and Rennie are named as prime examples.

On current form and fitness Rennie is out of it, but as noted above, the 6 Nations will determine most selections I feel (with the HC knock-out stages perhaps an opportunity for the likes of Wilkinson and Armitage if Toulon go through).

Odd comment above about Wood being picked at 7 based on international form. Very odd.

Also think the comment about Robshaw's handling and passing being "exceptional" is just plain wrong. He's a very good player indeed, but his passing and handling is his weakness. Nick Easter for example is a far more reliable handler of a rugby ball. RDW's comment about Robshaw's pace is also valid. He isn't slow, but up against the likes of Rennie, Tipuric and more tellingly Hooper and Pocock, he's treading water.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Beshocked - I think the point is more about "specialist" 7's rather than any individuals in particular, albeit that Tipuric and Rennie are named as prime examples.

On current form and fitness Rennie is out of it, but as noted above, the 6 Nations will determine most selections I feel (with the HC knock-out stages perhaps an opportunity for the likes of Wilkinson and Armitage if Toulon go through).

Odd comment above about Wood being picked at 7 based on international form. Very odd.

Also think the comment about Robshaw's handling and passing being "exceptional" is just plain wrong. He's a very good player indeed, but his passing and handling is his weakness. Nick Easter for example is a far more reliable handler of a rugby ball. RDW's comment about Robshaw's pace is also valid. He isn't slow, but up against the likes of Rennie, Tipuric and more tellingly Hooper and Pocock, he's treading water.

I don't quite see what's odd about considering Wood for the Lions 7 shirt FES. He has more often than not played 7 for Saints and has only worn the 6 shirt for England due to a) the toss of a coin with Haskell in 2011 (6N) and b) the fact Robshaw is the Captain at present. When Lancs first took over he was going to play Wood at 7 and make him Captain.

Finally, his form has been coming on very well the past couple of months and he put in some exceptional work in the SA and NZ games including some superb turnovers.

There's a big difference between being a 'link' man, and standing at first receiver. I think what Tipuric does, is win the ball, then get himself free of the contact area - round the corner, or simply to the side, and then offloads to the backs. That's a priceless quality, and has a lot more value than standing at 10, waiting for a ball that you were supposed to be winning. Martyn Williams had similar qualities. Tipuric, for my money, is the best 7 in the NH. His tackle count is silly.

Chjw131 wrote:

I don't quite see what's odd about considering Wood for the Lions 7 shirt FES. He has more often than not played 7 for Saints and has only worn the 6 shirt for England due to a) the toss of a coin with Haskell in 2011 (6N) and b) the fact Robshaw is the Captain at present. When Lancs first took over he was going to play Wood at 7 and make him Captain.

Finally, his form has been coming on very well the past couple of months and he put in some exceptional work in the SA and NZ games including some superb turnovers.

You said Wood should be considered at 7 for the Lions based on international form. His international form is at 6. That's why I thought the statement was odd.

I agree that he's an outstanding player, and at 6 he was utterly dominant against New Zealand at Twickenham. I also agree that he's a fine 7 as well, in fact it may well be that he and Robshaw end up switching sides a fair bit. But if you're looking at international form, then you're looking for Wood at 6 and not at 7.

Both Robshaw and Wood are strong Lions contenders in my opinion. The 6 Nations will tell us how strong.

I'll grant Robshaw is slow and a rapid 7 can expose this but his offloading and passing off both hands in the loose are great. Comparing him to Easter is unfair as Easter's hands are one of his greatest strengths and one of the best around for a forward

Telfer is right. Tipuric is the best 7 available.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Telfer is right. Tipuric is the best 7 available.

Agree

Warburton has actually put in a few decent performances for the Blues in the past few weeks, he could be playing himself back into contention.

IronMike wrote:Warburton has actually put in a few decent performances for the Blues in the past few weeks, he could be playing himself back into contention.

Warburton has been playing well for a while, certainly since the All Black game. He is definitely front runner, though many have said that Tipuric will be the other seven. Rennie is a very good shout, talented player.

Surprised no one has mentioned the fact that Ross Rennie, John Barclay and Chris Fusaro, all of whom would be likely to start in the 7 shirt for Scotland in the 6N, are injured. Therefore Rennie's chances to shine are less likely to come about.

I'd have Tipuric as my first choice at the minute, but one man who is putting his hand up week after week now is Chris Henry. Has there been a better flanker in the NH this season? He has been fantastic so far and bar an off day in Twickenham last year where he was struggling to recover from an injury, he's been Ireland's form back row. If he gets good time at 7 in the 6N, which is no certainty with Deccie's selection policy, he could be in with a fairly decent shout of touring!

Healy, Best, Jones
Launchbury, Grey
Ryan Jones, Easter, Tipuric

Deal with that Australia.
Sigh, they'll think of a way.

Chris Henry is a very good shout.. Sign of a great flanker is a winning team where his work goes much un-noticed.

Incidentally, in which piece of granite is it written that "Sam Warburton is the leading candidate to wear the number seven jersey"? The press keep babbling this like it's scripture, yet I have seen absolutely no indication on current form that this should be the case.

Forget what you know about rugby and think about what you know about Gatland.

Warburton was anonymous in the Munster game, being upstaged by Navidi. Tipuric is the boy for the job, but Gatland is his own man.

My heart says Brown-Beattie-Barclay (if fit Fusaro if not)
My head says OBrien -Heaslip -Tipuric
We should bow down before Jim Telfer, or else, and realise he is spot on. We need a fast, dynamic back row to take on Pocock et al but make sure they are behind a monster front five. The 6N will surprise all of us , as ever, and with Scotland at home to our Celtic cousins and Italy then Ryan Grant and the Rev will see it as a real opportunity.If Mike Cusack is fit in time he too could hold his hand up. Courtney Lawes could be a liability in terms of discipline so Hamilton could sneak in as enforcer, again Wagga Hines would love to go home and rub a few people's noses in it.

I would have assumed that Henry won't be starting for Ireland now that O'Brien is back. SOB isn't considered a natural 7 but is a player with X factor and can be brilliant in all three back row positions. Which actually might make him a great impact sub for the Lions.

I'll stick with Tipuric for now. But it's quite competitive. And 6 is even more difficult to predict. We have a pretty formidable array of 6's. It'll have to come down to who hits form on the tour.

Wales legend Gareth Edwards has tipped England captain Chris Robshaw to be name British and Irish Lions captain on the tour to Australia in 2013.

Welshman Edwards says that he would prefer to see Wales captain Sam Warburton leading the British and Irish Lions but conceded that Robshaw has a stronger case.

Edwards says that if England can build on their shock victory over the All Blacks last month Robshaw has every chance of leading the Lions.

"I'm a big fan of Robshaw," he said. "I like the way he's playing and I think he captained England particularly well. "

"That win over New Zealand ­highlighted his capability, without any question."

"Equally, there's no doubt Sam at his best would be a fine leader - but it's been a tough autumn for Wales, who I thought looked somewhat jaded."

"Sam, I feel, is coming into a bit of form, but much depends on the Six Nations. Warren picks on form - not on reputation."


Wel all should hope Warren picks on form not reputation whoever it may be.

The 6N is going to change everything, as will the injury count in the spring.

I don't think that the Aussies could cope with:

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Cole
4. Gray
5. I. Evans
6. Ferris
7. Tipuric
8. O'Brien

but that line-up is not likely to happen based on current injury status.

George Carlin those performances are history. Compare them to his performances for Edinburgh and Scotland this season.

You say it is one of the worst Edinburgh sides in years yet this same team got to the semi finals last season.


I still haven't seen a plausible explanation for wanting Tipuric. What has he actually done to warrant being billed as no 1 contender for the Lions shirt?

What has he done for Wales in particular?


I don't know why there is this obsession with hyping up players before they have actually proved themselves sufficiently at international level.

Also why is Gray still in most people's XVs?

Agreed on gray. He made a very poor decision joining sale, we all said it at the time. His only hope is that he can put to one side his club form and play well in the 6 nations. There's no question he's good enough but he needs to be playing well. Loads of competition at lock.

FES I am still like of all of us baffled why he chose Sale of all teams.

Club form gives you confidence.

The problem with Gray is the question mark over how good he is at the basics of lock play compared to his competitors? Everybody likes seeing a 7ft monster running with the ball at pace with his blond hair streaming in the wind, but does that skew peoples judgement of him.

To my knowledge Tipuric was pretty anonymous when he played for Wales in the AIs but then a lot of them were, and the same could be said of Armitage when he had his chance with England a couple of years back. These kinds of players can look great in the right kinds of games.

My 6 backrows I'd bring on tour (6N and hCup form depending)

6: o'brien-robshaw
7: tipuric-armitage
8: heaslip-Denton

No warbs, ferris, lydiate, jones or wood

My starting pack

Healy-Best-cole
Gray-Hines
O'Brien-Heaslip-tipuric

Hartley*-Corbs-Jones-Ryan-Armitage

*= I really don't like Hartley. He's a good player but seems like his attitude oils be done without on this Tour and also his disciplinary record is a liability.

True lostinwales. People have said Armitage as a possibility but playing for your club is very different from internationals.

Armitage needs to be playing for England to be considered as a 7s contender.

Same with all contenders - gametime in big games is all important.

It's why I question the clamor for Rennie and Tipuric. Warburton has been playing but not well.

O Connell looks likely to miss the Lions so that's one less competitor for Gray.

Gray has the difficulty of playing in two sides playing badly. We've never seen Gray operate in one of the top sides.


Still waiting for someone to answer my question about Tipuric - why all the hype?

Beshocked - whom do you think should start in the pack?

beshocked wrote:People have said Armitage as a possibility but playing for your club is very different from internationals.

Armitage needs to be playing for England to be considered as a 7s contender.

Same with all contenders - gametime in big games is all important.

I disagree with your thinking here. You talk of big games - do you mean the knockout stages of the Heineken Cup, domestic league playoff matches? If so, then you're limiting the number of players in contention, and what's more, you're including for selection players who perhaps aren't great shakes purely because they play for good / successful clubs, and ruling out players who could well be better just because they play for the wrong club / regional / provincial sides.

If you're saying that only players who are being selected for their national sides should be considered for Lions selection, then I disagree with that too. Test match experience is great to have, of course it is, but it's not the be-all and end-all. Say one of the home nations has three outstanding players in the same position: only one of them can be given the nod. Would you reject the claims of the other two, and look instead at a lesser player from another nation just because he's being capped?

Tipuric is just an out and out 7 in the Martyn Williams fashion. He isn't going to burst through on big carries and his tackles aren't going to leave a guy winded for 2 minutes but he will get to the breakdown early, he will track the ball, he will be aware of his support and where it is and he will make a lot of tackles.

I think he should definitely be playing for Wales and if they still want Warbs on put him at 6.

Luckless Pedestrian fine you got me there. I should have just said gametime.

True if a team has outstanding players then yes but I don't think any team currently has that. Sure for example England has 3 very good FB contenders but Ireland has Kearney and Wales Halfpenny.

I go with form. If the Lions was picked after the Welsh grandslam most of the side would be Welsh. After the AIs the team would consistent mostly of English and Irish players.

I would probably go for this pack currently.

1.Healy
2.Best
3.Cole
4.Launchbury
5.Parling
6.Ferris
7.Robshaw
8.Heaslip

16.A.Jones
17.Corbisiero
18.T.Youngs
19.Gray
20.SOB

Pete ok but what has he done/achieved? Was he a big success story in the AIs for example?

Beshocked - how much time has to pass before (as you mention above with Rennie) form is 'historic' rather than 'current'? If you're looking to the AI's for examples of players having 'big game' form, when why not look back only three months earlier to Rennie's stonking game against the Wallabies?

And that's the problem. The 6N will (rightly or wrongly - mostly for convenience if nothing else) be considered by many to be the single arbiter of whether players deserve to travel based on 'big game form' and as Luckless has pointed out, there's a danger in that as you are, in effect, shortlisting eligible candidates immediately based on the opinion of each national coach.

Denton will probably be Scotland's pick at 8, for example. Personally, I think that all news reports (and 4 Top 14/Heineken Cup man of the match awards in the past six weeks) indicate that Johnny Beattie is playing much better for Montpellier than Denton is for Edinburgh. However, picking Denton is a much more 'vanilla' choice because he is the current imcumbent, there to be shifted by someone else.

And that's the further problem with the Lions. Gatland won't just be picking the form players. He'll also have to factor in whether these form players have the mental robustness to step up in the cauldron of a Lions test series. That's reason why Wilkinson keeps coming up. I think that Sexton and Farrell are more consistent choices than Wilko, but if I had to give one of the three players a chance to kick the winning Lions test series winning goal, then I'd give it to Wilko every time.

It's not as simple as picking on current club form or on the basis of a run in a single 6N tournament. It's instructive, but it's not everything when you consider the pressure of a Lions test.

Halfpenny's never a full back for me. He's done very well there for Wales, but he was only ever standing in in the first place. His goalkicking is a great asset, but even then, if he has to be found a place because of it, it should be one of the wing berths.

I don't think he has achieved much tbh he has been in the shadow of Warbs for quite a while now.

He has won 2 Rabo Direct leagues which is something I guess.

I still feel he is the best player for the job

Ps: Leinster are one of the best breakdown teams on the planet (at least they were this time last year) and Tipuric always makes/made our life very difficult when we play the O's

If he's so good why can't he supplant an out of form Warburton?

George Carlin you're right. Rennie should get credit for that but on the other hand his poor performances for Edinburgh should be considered too.

Maybe the Killer Bs should be brought back together?

I know what you mean. It's not as straightforward as I make out I suppose.

beshocked wrote:If he's so good why can't he supplant an out of form Warburton?

Because Gatland (and Howley) think Warburton has magical powers.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

beshocked wrote:If he's so good why can't he supplant an out of form Warburton?

Because Gatland (and Howley) think Warburton has magical powers.

+1