Jonathan Davies on rugby in Wales

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'Top' TV personality and respected former player, Jonathan Davies, managed to squeeze in a couple of noteworthy points at the end of another gripping episode of Scrum V on BBC Wales yesterday. They included;

- regional rugby should be properly funded. There's no point in the WRU making profits if they aren't going to re-invest them,
- rugby should be encouraged in schools,
- Wales has to look at playing talent outside the small pool of regions and academies. He made the point that some players such as himself, Ieuan Evans and Shane Williams, develop later in life and never played for Wales in age group rugby,
- The WRU commissioned an expensive report that suggested that everyone work together, but there is no sign of it yet.

Interesting that Wales' most eminent pundit felt the need to reinforce these rather obvious points yet again. Maybe he feels we're not making progress.

We're 17 years into the professional era, even in Wales.

Casartelli wrote:

Scrumdown wrote:Castarelli,

I would define cash as the amount in the bank.

They had £800k at the year end.

No mate, that's what they have left in the current account (god knows why) after Roger has spent the previous 12 months squandering the rest of it.

If you have £7.50 in your bank account at Xmas, it doesn't mean your salary for the year was less than a tenner. Snapshot, see.

Yes, I understand that but if you read note 2d in the accounts you will see that they allocated £15million from the £27million to the regions during the year which is not an insignificant amount.

Would you trust the regions to spend an extra say £3million wisely in their current state? I have my doubts.

My argument is that that we need to make sure that the regions have the right people in place to spend every penny in the most effective way possible.

Now that's an excellent point. How the regions are governed (should they be under the umbrella of the WRU - take the 'businessmen benefactors' out of the decision making process etc etc) is another fundamental issue.

The Jiffy discussion, I think, was based around assuming things would stay as they are - and whether the WRU is being bossed around by Barclays at the expense of the regions (albeit only to the tune of £5m-£7m) and whether school rugby, semi pro etc have been ignored.

Glas a du wrote:Let me guess scrumdown, you're an accountant?

The point is motormouth egotist Roger shot his mouth off about paying the debt down as if it was a personal crusade as opposed to bending over and taking the precise amount of medicine prescribed by the banks. Whilst Wales were doing OK on the pitch, fine and dandy. Now people are questioning the treatment of the regions, he's backed into a corner. Wales are looking like bottom half candidates in the 6 nations and ticket sales aren't so hot.

Suddenly splashing the cash at grass roots level and failing to take a firmer line with the Banks looks foolish, but Roger can't allow that to happen, hence the public shot across the bows of the Regions.

It really is simple when you think about it. It is our duty as Welsh rugby fans to be sceptical and independently minded and to haul Lewis over the coals if he fouls it up, not to lift his sleeves.

But it is also our duty to be sceptical of the ability of those individuals currently in charge of our regions to spend any additional funding wisely.

There is no point giving the blues for example an additional £1million pounds to spend when history tells us that it will be spent unwisely.

Rather, the wru need to make sure in the first place that each region is being led by a management board with the ability and experience to make the most of any additional funding. Then, by all means, increase the funding.

You are correct in that the financial fortunes of the wru may well dip in the future. For that reason it is prudent that they repay the loans whilst they are in a financial position do do so.

In fairness, Scrumdown, your plan is far more detailed than the WRU's.

Problem is, Roger Lewis hasn't said any of that. We don't know what his plan is, so we don't know what there is to look forward to, if anything. He seems to be making it up as he goes along.

He hasn't said that he's sceptical of the management at the regions. Hasn't said that he thinks they'll spend their allowance unwisely. Hasn't said that he wants the WRU to approve regional board members and he hasn't said why repaying the loans quicker than planned is such an overriding priority.

He's set up a monthly networking lunch and the rest is 5 year rolling plan/robust framework/support the grassroots soundbite nonsense.

Scrumdown wrote:
Would you trust the regions to spend an extra say £3million wisely in their current state? I have my doubts.

My argument is that that we need to make sure that the regions have the right people in place to spend every penny in the most effective way possible.

Its a very valid point. I've been reading various Welsh Rugby forums in the wake of Ulsters win over the Scarlets on Friday, and some fans have made the point that there is a disparity in budget. I don't know what the facts of that are or how the two sides compare in terms of operating budget, but I do know that the IRFU significantly increased funding to Ulster when our old CEO was replaced by our current CEO. You see the last guy wasn't trusted, he was basically not very good at his job. No vision.

The current regime are better funded because they are better at what they do; Shane Logan and David Humphreys came into Ulster at a time when we were at a low ebb (on the pitch at least we were behind a good few of your regions) with a vision of making us one of the top sides in Europe and the IRFU backed that financially. What they've achieved in a short space of time I think has surprised most people in european rugby. We really emulated Leinster, whose upper management are incredibly sharp. They built the current Leinster rugby dynasty to what it is now from an organisation which was run out of a few portacabins with just a handful of staff at a time when we were quite far behind the Welsh sides in truth.

But where on earth are you going to find the right people to run your regions as businesses?

which is not an insignificant amount.

Now you've turned into John Major

Your faith in the WRU is touching but misplaced.

Notch wrote:Where on earth are you going to find the right people to run your regions as businesses?

The best candidates from the business world wouldn't accept the level of interference from the WRU.

ARGH it's Catch 22!

Or it's 'The Neverending Story', with Roger Lewis and David Pickering duetting on the theme song.

Or 'Flight of the navigator' where they are all navigators living a decade in the past.

I've just had a horrible thought. Sean Holley said he had things 'in the pipeline'.

Roger is going to employ him, isn't he?

It's going to be an Axis of Management Speak Evil.

Personal opinion the WRU love to debate, and there are load of people in the WRU who love to debate. Therefore they must all be a bunch of......

Wales have only 2 home games in this 6 nations which means that it will be a poorer year.
The PWC report did suggest the running of the regions wasn't efficient, lack of buiness plans etc etc.
WRU are paying of Debt faster than they had planed.

For me the the 6 nation teams plan on a 2 year cycle, which has 5 6 nation home games, rather than 2 one year 3 the next.

WRU have but the regional board in place and hopefully they will oversee an overhaul in the running of the regions to being more professional, (some on here say that the benifactors are successfull buinessmen and know what they are doing, but PWC couldn't get a decent buiness plan from some regions) so the board should see that the regions have a buiness plan, and are run efficiently, hopefully before the end of this season.

The WRU need to redirect funds from paying of debt faster, to paying it at the agreed rate and directing the finance they used toward paying the debt faster towards the regions.

The WRU may plan to increase regions funding after debt is paid, but this may be to late, as they may have failed by then, or be so far behind the rest of Europe that catching up would take a very long time, better to pay debt at agreed rate and direct extra to regions now (IRFU also have stadium debt and can still finance provinces, WRU should be able to manage it likewise, plus they normally have an extra game to boost finance).

For me plan should be make surewith the regional/WRU board that regions are set up to run efficiently, effictivly and money is used to maximum potentional before this summer agreement on NWQ players and positions they can play.

In the summer WRU pays debts at regular rate and redirects the finance toward the regions.
Hope for a good draw in H-cup.

Casartelli wrote:I've just had a horrible thought. Sean Holley said he had things 'in the pipeline'.

Roger is going to employ him, isn't he?

It's going to be an Axis of Management Speak Evil.

Oh fluck, please God no!

Nah Holley won't be in the WRU, that we can be assured of, he has too many fingers in too many pies to take such a lowly paid position.

Excuse my ignorance, but if Roger Lewis is running the business side of the WRU, who's running the rugby side? Surely thats the side falling down? We need someone there who's competent at planning and can tell Roger Lewis exactly where that funding needs to go. They also need to tell him that paying off the fricking stadium debt earlier is great but not as important as flailing regions (not quite failing - flailing).

theryre not even flailing properly.

Whatever happened to the Welsh Rugby Union actually being a union? Shouldn't the member clubs have to vote on any proposed changes to the regions?

Glas a du wrote:theryre not even flailing properly.

- that tickled me.

Comfort wrote:Excuse my ignorance, but if Roger Lewis is running the business side of the WRU, who's running the rugby side?...

Stacey from Sales & Marketing. Does it during her lunchbreak.

when she'sd not being nobbed by CENSOREDing

Roger Lewis stands there and watches, mumbling meaningless business jargon as he tosses himself off the fiscal cliff.

Cliff Richard is a decent God fearing man!

maybe he'd like to run the rugby side of the WRU?

"um, yeah, we like, need everybody to, ah, work together on this one, yeah? Oh look it's raining, ah, pass the old guitar..."

Wouldn't last five minutes.

On the other hand, he's old enough to remember Wales beating the All Blacks in 1905, so there's nothing in the game he hasn't seen. He's like a wise old celibate roller-skating owl.

with hemorrhoids

Now you're being silly.

And in order to see how it's spelt I had to look it up meaning 'hemorrhoids' is at the top of my search history

Glas a du wrote:And in order to see how it's spelt I had to look it up meaning 'hemorrhoids' is at the top of my search history

Top of the 'pile', so to speak.

My parents were big Cliff fans. My dad's got Cliff's face tattooed on his @rse, while my mum's got Cliff's @rse tattoed on her face.

that's why I thought he had piles!

Cliff Richard is playing a gig in Shanghai and one of his Chinese fans comes to the dressing room door to see him.

Chinaman says....me rike your song Itchy Sore Fanny.

Cliff says....I've never sung a song of that name.

Chinaman says....ret me sing for you.......Itchy Sore Fanneeeee, Why We Don't Talk Anymore....

Cliff had to cancel a tour once because he had an itchy sore fanny.

Casartelli wrote:Cliff Richard is playing a gig in Shanghai and one of his Chinese fans comes to the dressing room door to see him.

Chinaman says....me rike your song Itchy Sore Fanny.

Cliff says....I've never sung a song of that name.

Chinaman says....ret me sing for you.......Itchy Sore Fanneeeee, Why We Don't Talk Anymore....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQt-h753jHI

I really shouldn't laugh...

That song cracks me up anyway. You cant help but sing along in the car, but then...

...the octave jump...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=8jgGK4NJ8Hk

When do the WRU/regional lunches commence, btw?

Comfort wrote:Excuse my ignorance, but if Roger Lewis is running the business side of the WRU, who's running the rugby side? Surely thats the side falling down? We need someone there who's competent at planning and can tell Roger Lewis exactly where that funding needs to go. They also need to tell him that paying off the fricking stadium debt earlier is great but not as important as flailing regions (not quite failing - flailing).

Comfort I answered this on another topic in the last week, the Dodger is doing his job but DD (dozy dai) Pickering is not doing his

What is Roger's job, exactly? What is his specific function? An explanation would be good, as he's never provided one - other than to act as Barclays' man at the WRU, of course.

Management speak and buzzword answers don't count.

To be fair to the WRU (and this is with my tight money hat on). Paying down the loan at low interest rates will save them a stack in five years when interest rates go up.

For the regions the WRU are putting in £15m (which I assume is Euro money, Rabo money, take players outside window payments and there alloted money is it £1.5m per union)

How much are these money men putting in, by the sounds of it nothing (but have in the past). Also how much money does the regions generate each year. I know match day tickets are never much but at 4k x 14 games (making it small so that it does not count if they have to give away tickets, loss in season tickets, away team tickets) @ £10 gives you half a million. Plus there is sponsership too.

So why don't the unions either get rid of the money men or start contracting the players directly and take it out of the money given back. That way in 3 years time all players will be contracted to the WRU or an afiliate. They can then tell the money men to get lost or do better.

I know its too simple but it seems like the money men aren't doing much to grow the business rightly or wrongly.

I think Connacht should be used as a plan. They are really only supported by Galway in a place where Rugby was never a strong sport. They are growing the game but expect results. I am sure if it doesn't grow they will get cut back down.

In Wales regional rugby is not seen as a strong sport (though growing well enough if you ask me) I do wonder if the Scarlets growing themselves as they did will be forced and is being forced on the Os and Blues.

Are the dragons doing better, they seem to be except not on the pitch but that seems to be more with Ulster and Connacht improving then Dragons getting worse. Their owner seems to be putting in the most money with the stadium where as Os and Blue didn't put any money is and just wasted it on players

Not got much time for the likes of Johnathan Davies.

He is exceptional gifted player also has a sense for the game, if he cared so much for Welsh rugby he would put his neck on the line and coach.

He has a lot to offer as a coach but he can't be arsed with helping.

viewtothegym wrote:Not got much time for the likes of Johnathan Davies.

He is exceptional gifted player also has a sense for the game, if he cared so much for Welsh rugby he would put his neck on the line and coach.

He has a lot to offer as a coach but he can't be arsed with helping.

I have wondered why he has never coached. He is not your Jermey Guscott who gives little bits but half the time doesn't know the whole story. Davies seems to have a good sense for the game and is more then a "tell you what I see" comentator but accually seems to add in things of how to change things and about why things are working for the team or player.

As a beloved Welsh man you think he would talk into any coaching job in wales

Maybe he has seen the way Welsh coaches have been treated in the past and doesn't want to end up like that.

Coaching is supremely complicated, JD may sound good when he has a team of analysts around him to tell him whats what but actually stepping onto the pitch and leading, deciding and taking responsibility are clearly not his thing, and sadly are not many peoples thing, including a LOT of coaches in Wales!!

Have to agree. Coaching is an art in itself. It's like teaching; you have to have certain skills to be able to analyse player's needs and teach them the skills needed to get them from point a to point b in a way that is appropriate for that person. Not everyone is suited to it. Just being a good analyst/pundit doesn't mean that you will make a good coach. Just as some people have no desire to teach, some former players may have no desire to coach. Davies may not feel he has the teaching type skills needed to be an effective coach. That's hardly for us to judge on this site, and to say 'he can't be a*ed to help out', that from view is a pathetic comment.

Brendan wrote:I know its too simple but it seems like the money men aren't doing much to grow the business rightly or wrongly.

I think Connacht should be used as a plan. They are really only supported by Galway in a place where Rugby was never a strong sport. They are growing the game but expect results. I am sure if it doesn't grow they will get cut back down.

In Wales regional rugby is not seen as a strong sport (though growing well enough if you ask me) I do wonder if the Scarlets growing themselves as they did will be forced and is being forced on the Os and Blues.

Are the dragons doing better, they seem to be except not on the pitch but that seems to be more with Ulster and Connacht improving then Dragons getting worse. Their owner seems to be putting in the most money with the stadium where as Os and Blue didn't put any money is and just wasted it on players

seems to be a common thread amongst Irish posters that we should get rid of the money men and see greater control from the WRU. Now leaving aside the fact that the WRU has a world-famous record of bungling incompetance that dwarfs anything by the regions, a guy in charge that is a proven liar to his colleagues and the public, and that they either cannot or will not put greater funding into the game outside of Team Wales, why do we want greater WRU control again?

Good point.