Nadal, Djokovic And Murray In The Same Category?

by hawkeye Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:22 pm

First topic message reminder :

Recently I have noticed that the game styles of Nadal, Djokovic and Murray have been grouped together. I do not see the similarity. Federer is the unique one and Nadal, Djokovic and Murray are in the same category? Rubbish! IMO yet another way to down play Nadal's achievements and talk up Federer's. Pfft! I would put both Federer and Nadal in a class of their own. Not only in terms of achievement but because they both play a unique game in terms of style that no one else can emulate.

How should these four players be categorized? What are the similarities and differences between the game styles of these four players?

by newballs Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:10 pm

HE this debate might soon be pretty academic and irrelevant anyhow.

Federer's probably checking his pension rights ahead of what could yet be a last hurrah whilst Nadal's often conflicting press releases seem to indicate someone who is not entirely sure of where, when and if he'll appear again.

by HM Murdock Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:31 pm

hawkeye wrote: Rafa can beat Roger at his best. Djokovic and Murray didn't have a chance. So that definitely means you put Rafa in a different category to the others.

Cincy 06, Montreal 07, Miami 09, Rome 09, Basel 09, Doha 09 and Indian Wells 09 would suggest that they did have a chance, even at aged 22 or younger.

I've excluded 08 results to avoid the 'mono' excuse and haven't gone beyond 2009 to avoid the 'getting old' excuse.

by CaledonianCraig Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:34 pm

ah but HM that doesn’t avoid the "he wasn’t trying" or he played way below his best" excuse.

by hawkeye Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:29 pm

HM Murdoch wrote:
Cincy 06, Montreal 07, Miami 09, Rome 09, Basel 09, Doha 09 and Indian Wells 09

Pfft! What sort of trophies do they give away at these random tournaments? When your running out of shelf space is it really worth working up a sweat for yet another one of those glass fruit bowl things? Admittedly the Rome trophy would have been nice but as there was little chance of actually winning the trophy it was better tactics to let Nole suffer a beating from Rafa. Winning Madrid and RG more than made up for that loss...

by User 774433 Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:36 pm

HE

These types of ridiculous comments just give people more firepower to attack Nadal.

I think what you are trying to say is that Nadal has punished Federer most at the highest level, but I think we knew that level.

by **JuliusHMarx** Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:44 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:HE
These types of ridiculous comments just give people more firepower to attack Nadal.

I think what you are trying to say is that Nadal has punished Federer most at the highest level, but I think we knew that level.

Unlike Djoko then, who only managed to punish Rafa at, err, no, hang on.... Very Happy

by Jeremy_Kyle Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:46 pm

emancipator wrote:Amritia, the fact that you think Nadal's DTLBH is one of the strongest shots in tennis shows how little you actually appreciate the sport.

Nadal's inside out FH is by far his strongest shot followed by his cc FH. The dtlbh is virtually non-existant in his armoury. When he plays it it's usually a loopy ball to buy time. Only on the BH CC is he able to consistently flatten out the stroke and hit winners.

I think the both of you is wrong. Nadal never hit the down the line bh. Consequently nobody can really say for sure if the shot is good or not..... laughing

by User 774433 Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:12 pm

Jeremy_Kyle wrote:

I think the both of you is wrong. Nadal never hit the down the line bh. Consequently nobody can really say for sure if the shot is good or not.....

What a load of nonsense.
You are saying Nadal has never hit the DTL BH? How much do you watch him play?

It's a very good shot when he uses it, the only problem I have is that he doesn't use it as often as I would like.

by LuvSports! Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:18 pm

how would your list go imbl?

im guessing nadal as no1 for most of said criteria?

by User 774433 Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:29 pm

LuvSports! wrote:how would your list go imbl?

im guessing nadal as no1 for most of said criteria?

This is one I did in 2010:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A72836788

by User 774433 Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:34 pm

I still can't believe people are saying Nadal is a 'first week struggler' at Wimbledon.
Between 2006 and 2011 he reached the final every single time he entered... have some more respect

I think in these years, in the first week Nadal has only had to play like 4 five-setters, barely any.

by LuvSports! Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:38 pm

federer isn't mentioned in this article though it is about nadal, djoko and murray.

by User 774433 Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:39 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:HE
These types of ridiculous comments just give people more firepower to attack Nadal.

I think what you are trying to say is that Nadal has punished Federer most at the highest level, but I think we knew that level.

Unlike Djoko then, who only managed to punish Rafa at, err, no, hang on....

What's your point Julius?
Djokovic and Nadal have had a fantastic rivalry, and out of the top 3 Djokovic has struggled against Nadal the most overall (if you look at h2h ratio). Of course I am aware Djoko had a really good run against Rafa in 2011, but in 2012 Nadal turned it around winning most of the matches

by User 774433 Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:41 pm

LuvSports! wrote:federer isn't mentioned in this article though it is about nadal, djoko and murray.

Imo as players I would rate Nadal, then Djokovic, then Murray.
Djokovic has a bit more to do imo to secure his legacy as the one of the greatest, Murray meanwhile despite being a superb player I think will win 6 Grand Slams max.

by LuvSports! Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:46 pm

LuvSports! wrote:
IMHO:

FH: 1) nadal 2) djoko 3) murray
BH: 1) djoko 2) murray 3) nadal
serve: (toughy) really dunno! - murray has the biggest but least consistent, nadal maybe? djoko? hell im stuck
slice: 1) murray 2) nadal 3) djoko
return 1) djoko 2) murray 3) nadal
overhead: 1) nadal 2) murray 3) djoko
volley: 1) murray 2) nadal 3) djoko
defence: 1) nadal 2) djoko 3) murray
attack: 1) nadal 2) djoko 3) murray
talent: 1) djoko 2) murray 3)nadal

how would you score it?

by Jeremy_Kyle Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:47 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:
Jeremy_Kyle wrote:

I think the both of you is wrong. Nadal never hit the down the line bh. Consequently nobody can really say for sure if the shot is good or not.....
What a load of nonsense.
You are saying Nadal has never hit the DTL BH? How much do you watch him play?

It's a very good shot when he uses it, the only problem I have is that he doesn't use it as often as I would like.

It's immaterial for his game.

by hawkeye Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:48 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:Of course I am aware Djoko had a really good run against Rafa in 2011, but in 2012 Nadal turned it around winning most of the matches

Nadal "turned it around" in Monte Carlo and then won ALL the matches. But the sad thing is we still don't know what happens next with their rivalry. Dam knees!

by User 774433 Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:56 pm

FH- Nadal
BH- Djokovic
Drop Shot- Murray
Mental toughness- Nadal
Serve- Murray
Volley- Nadal
Movement/ Court Coverage- depends on surface
Stamina- Djokovic
Smash- Nadal

Overall of course I don't think counting each category as 'one point' is reflecting reality.
This is a very simplified version of events, another huge skill in tennis is making your strengths stand up and count.. something difficult to quantify.

by hawkeye Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:00 pm

Jeremy_Kyle wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:
Jeremy_Kyle wrote:

I think the both of you is wrong. Nadal never hit the down the line bh. Consequently nobody can really say for sure if the shot is good or not.....
What a load of nonsense.
You are saying Nadal has never hit the DTL BH? How much do you watch him play?

It's a very good shot when he uses it, the only problem I have is that he doesn't use it as often as I would like.

It's immaterial for his game.

I sort of agree with Jeremy_Kyle. Of course Rafa can hit DTL BH's and cross court BH's but it's not really what he wants to do. Anytime an opponent gets him to hit a backhand of any description they have won a mini battle. Sometimes he gets way out of position and hits a forehand when he really should hit a backhand. Maybe it's a matter of pride and he just doesn't want to admit defeat... Funny but Federer is the opposite. He plays as if it's a matter of pride NOT to run round the backhand and hit a forehand... when really he should. Both Nadal and Federer are not perfect. Ha ha!

by CaledonianCraig Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:01 pm

IMBL I can recall at least two occasions in recent years in the first week at Wimbledon that Fed fans have had sweat pouring from their forehead watching their man struggle to a win against Julien Benneteau last year and before that there was Alessandro Falla. Dig deeper and you will find more so are we to presume Fed struggles at Wimbledon because he has scares in the first week? of course not because all that matters is the end result and Fed is recognised as one of the very best grass courters ever. Likewise Nadal has a damn impressive record at Wimbledon. In any case for Federer grass is his strongest surface and he has had scares just like Rafa but grass is not Nadal’s best surface so that elevates Rafas record in my book.

by super_realist Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:14 pm

Djokovic and Murray don't look like a capybara so I'm not sure how you can group them together with Nadal.

by bogbrush Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:18 pm

Against both Falla and Benneteau (and Mallisse) he was so stricken with back spasms he was barely mobile, in the last case even taking about the first off court mto I can remember.

Hardly events to draw conclusions from, apart from his dodgy back.

by User 774433 Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:23 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:IMBL I can recall at least two occasions in recent years in the first week at Wimbledon that Fed fans have had sweat pouring from their forehead watching their man struggle to a win against Julien Benneteau last year and before that there was Alessandro Falla. Dig deeper and you will find more so are we to presume Fed struggles at Wimbledon because he has scares in the first week? of course not because all that matters is the end result and Fed is recognised as one of the very best grass courters ever. Likewise Nadal has a damn impressive record at Wimbledon. In any case for Federer grass is his strongest surface and he has had scares just like Rafa but grass is not Nadal’s best surface so that elevates Rafas record in my book.

by User 774433 Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:23 pm

bogbrush wrote:Against both Falla and Benneteau (and Mallisse) he was so stricken with back spasms he was barely mobile, in the last case even taking about the first off court mto I can remember.

Hardly events to draw conclusions from, apart from his dodgy back.

by CaledonianCraig Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:31 pm

Yes bogbrush and likewise I’d hazard a guess that Rafa could also hold claim to ailments if you dug deep enough. Both have mighty impressive end results and that is all that matters as far as I am concerned.

by **JuliusHMarx** Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:50 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:Yes bogbrush and likewise I’d hazard a guess that Rafa could also hold claim to ailments if you dug deep enough. Both have mighty impressive end results and that is all that matters as far as I am concerned.

You don't have to dig that deep CC. It's a well known fact that Rafa has never lost a match when fully fit.

by CaledonianCraig Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:35 am

As for the three players being discussed here and their strengths and weaknesses I'd like to look at another angle - improvement in their game. Now injury has blighted Rafa ruling him out for the last six months - prior to that he had retsined his French Open crown but suffered a shock loss at Wimbledon so it is hard to see an improvement in his game. Novak had a decent year last year but never reached the heights of 2011 so was there any noticable improvement. Murray showed improvement in various areas as in mental strength, improved serve and winning his first slam and Olympic Gold injecting him with a new sense of self belief. Out of those three I would think it is fair to say that Andy has made strides and improved more than Djokovic who plateaud a bit whilst Nadal's fortunes dipped with his injury.

by LuvSports! Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:44 am

agreed.

cc a question for i know its in your other article, but i you commented here last so i thought it may get a quicker response.

If a junior came up to the mens tour and was as fit and as fast as these three do you think he would rise up the rankings faster than say another incredibly talented junior who didn't have that fitness and speed?

by CaledonianCraig Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:50 am

A talented junior without physicality and physique may be able to break into the top twenty in the world but their lack of physicality and physique would not allow them to truly compete with the very top players. If a junior with less talent but physicality and physique he may be able to makevthe top fifty in the world but no more than that - in my opinion of course.

by Born Slippy Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:35 am

Still don't agree with that. Murray and Djokovic themselves proved what a really talented junior can do. Both were top 10 in the world as teenagers despite, particularly in Murray's case, massively lacking in the physical elements at that stage. Only the top 4 have upped the standard from where we were 6 years ago.

by LuvSports! Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:42 am

where would people rate hewitt talent wise?

did he not take the tour by surprise with his great fitness levels?
when he became no1 i think the courts were being slowed down, so maybe he took advantage back then and now if hewitt came along today he wouldn't have had the same impact. But then you have to consider the more powerful rackets, strings etc, interesting

by CaledonianCraig Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:55 am

Born Slippy wrote:Still don't agree with that. Murray and Djokovic themselves proved what a really talented junior can do. Both were top 10 in the world as teenagers despite, particularly in Murray's case, massively lacking in the physical elements at that stage. Only the top 4 have upped the standard from where we were 6 years ago.

Of course it depends on how talented they are. I wasnt given any real specifics on the talent levels these perceived talented youngsters would be. The greater the talent the higher they could get in rankings but withiut physicality and physique slam wins in this day and age I would rule out.

by lydian Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:15 am

Strokewise, Murray and Nole have little in common with Nadal. They are more similar to each other. Nadal's strokes are somewhat unique...ask any tennis coach...you can't coach a kid to play the way he does, even his BH isn't orthodox...remember his dominant arm on BH is opposite to what it should be. His FH is a master of stretch shortening cycle...neither Murray or Novak use this technique to anywhere near the same level...infact both their FHs are much more orthodox, almost a throw back to 90s FHs. The guy with the most similar FH to Nadal is.......Federer. Now there is a guy who has studied Nadal's FH intently and changed his stroke accordingly over the years.

by banbrotam Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:31 am

Good stuff from luvsports who at least notices their differences.

Putting Nadal and Murray as similar is laughable

by CAS Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:15 am

Roger Federer on Murray and Djokovic:

"They are very different players in terms of their defending. Novak stays on the offensive when he defends, whereas Andy has much more let's say feel or he plays with his slice. He finds a way into the point very different than how the way Novak does it. That creates a different type of an attacking plan for me the way I need to play."

by monty junior Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:42 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:How does a player who is not as talented beat someone else who is more talented 7 times in a row, across different surfaces?

However I think the article is more about the approach to game, strategy and tactics, in which case I'd say Murray and Nadal are fairly similar. Djoko is more adaptable - plays differently according to the opponent.

In what way? Djokovic' main strength is his consistency from the baseline and that's what he does, he takes it early on the baseline, i don't see how he is more adaptable than Murray who plays different players distinctly differently. Against big servers who struggle to return he'll serve at a lower pace as he can get away with it, use his slice and try and move them around. Whereas against grinders and baselines he goes for his shots more. Nole is one dimensional imo and not remotely exciting but his consistency like Nadal at his peak is astounding but doesn't really pull off the "miracle" shots in particular Federer and Murray can. But i suppose miracle shots are in the eye of the beholder.

by HM Murdock Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:55 pm

monty junior wrote:Nole is one dimensional imo and not remotely exciting but his consistency like Nadal at his peak is astounding but doesn't really pull off the "miracle" shots in particular Federer and Murray can. But i suppose miracle shots are in the eye of the beholder.

Yes, all that saving of match and set points gets so boring. It's done with such one-dimensional shots.

by monty junior Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:07 pm

Well i'm not saying saving match points isn't exciting, it shows that he is a great champion but he saves them with long drawn out baseline rallies, just like 99% of the points he plays. I just don't find it that exciting, not to say that others can't.

by User 774433 Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:23 pm

monty junior wrote:Well i'm not saying saving match points isn't exciting, it shows that he is a great champion but he saves them with long drawn out baseline rallies, just like 99% of the points he plays.

No, I don't tink so warning

When he's MP down he comes up with one shot winners and sh*t.

Anyway I think we all have our different tastes. In general Djokovic is very efficient, stunning efficiency actually, and HM has stated he/she likes that trait in players.
*Edit: So fair on HM, we all have our different opinions, no?

by monty junior Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:36 pm

Indeed, that's what i said. I think he is efficient to a very very high level, i just don't find him that exciting. Though i'd rather watch him any day than just a ballbasher as he does have some nice touches too from time to time.

by HM Murdock Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:42 pm

Yes, I happen to love Novak's efficiency but I can also see why others don't.

But you simply don't win 4 slams, 8 masters and a WTF in a 2 year period without being able to hit brilliant shots.

by newballs Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:52 pm

HHM you're probably wasting your time defending Novak from those who would call him one dimensional and boring. Any genuine fan knows just how good his game is and how he can seemingly raise his level at will time and time again when up against it.

That's why he's No. 1 and a multiple slam winner however much some fans of Nadal, Murray and Federer take issue with his game.

by User 774433 Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:01 pm

newballs wrote:HHM you're probably wasting your time defending Novak from those who would call him one dimensional and boring. Any genuine fan knows just how good his game is and how he can seemingly raise his level at will time and time again when up against it.

That's why he's No. 1 and a multiple slam winner however much some fans of Nadal, Murray and Federer take issue with his game.

I don't take issue with his game???
And I'm a Nadal fan.

He's quite good to watch, but I prefer to watch him in a tough battle where he's not at his best, but still wins.

by Haddie-nuff Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:05 pm

monty junior wrote:
Nole is one dimensional imo and not remotely exciting but his consistency like Nadal at his peak is astounding but doesn't really pull off the "miracle" shots in particular Federer and Murray can. But i suppose miracle shots are in the eye of the beholder.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yep Im a fan Ill hold my hand up now !!! you want miracle shots... here you go
As good as Murray and Federer can

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZTv745bWo0

by monty junior Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:15 pm

newballs wrote:HHM you're probably wasting your time defending Novak from those who would call him one dimensional and boring. Any genuine fan knows just how good his game is and how he can seemingly raise his level at will time and time again when up against it.

That's why he's No. 1 and a multiple slam winner however much some fans of Nadal, Murray and Federer take issue with his game.

When did i ever question his overall ability and ability to raise his game? He has a good first serve, amazing movement both in offense and defense and tremendous consistency and depth with his ground strokes. That's his game and frankly that's a tough combination to beat which is why he has won so many big titles particularly in the last two years. My original point though was that HHM said Novak had a lot of adaptability depending on his opponents whereas i don't agree it's just his plan A is so good he doesn't really need a huge variation in his play. Which is why i said Murray imo has a lot more adaptability to the opponent he plays, everyone has different tastes and opinions on it though but please don't spout rubbish that i'm not a "genuine fan" because i have an opinion on something.

by carrieg4 Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:18 pm

I think it is the differences between the top players that make the game interesting. They are all great players and their differences mean that there is something for everyone - long may it last Bubbly

by monty junior Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:20 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:monty junior wrote:
Nole is one dimensional imo and not remotely exciting but his consistency like Nadal at his peak is astounding but doesn't really pull off the "miracle" shots in particular Federer and Murray can. But i suppose miracle shots are in the eye of the beholder.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yep Im a fan Ill hold my hand up now !!! you want miracle shots... here you go
As good as Murray and Federer can

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZTv745bWo0

Videos not working mate?!

by Haddie-nuff Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:23 pm

Try it again MATE it works on my puter

by carrieg4 Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:31 pm

Not working for me either Haddie. Says the content is blocked for my country.

by User 774433 Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:38 pm

It's banned in UK Haddie

by Sponsored content