Englands EPS and Saxons announced

England Senior Elite Player Squad (33)

Forwards (18)

Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (London Wasps)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs (15)

Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

England Saxons Elite Player Squad (32)

Forwards (17)

Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby)
Louis Deacon (Leicester Tigers)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints)
Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
Will Fraser (Saracens)
Joe Gray (Harlequins)
Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers)
Shaun Knight (Gloucester Rugby)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors)
Matt Mullan (Worcester Warriors)
David Paice (London Irish)
Tom Palmer (London Wasps)
George Robson (Harlequins)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)

Backs (15)

Nick Abendanon (Bath Rugby)
Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Biggs (Bath Rugby)
Elliot Daly (London Wasps)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
George Lowe (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Ugo Monye (Harlequins)
Joe Simpson (London Wasps)
Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby)
Joel Tomkins (Saracens)
Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins)
Christian Wade (London Wasps)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)

Its mostly as expected - I'm surprised to see Tom Johnston keep his place!
And Strettle return to EPS
But the big one is Callum Clarke - SL was raving about him before his ban but from what I've seen I am still not convinced.

Would you really select him over a Robshaw/Wood/Croft?

Great to see Billy Vaunipola in the Saxons too.

I am not pleased Clarke is selected, regardless of form, he deliberately broke another player's arm and got a 32 week ban. He should not be considered on that basis alone.

Great to young Knight in the Saxons...said we need to see these TH's coming through...

Clark... didnt expect that...and as a Second Row. He's got ALOT to prove after his ban...

Dont forgot...Palmer and Botha can still be called up with injuries etc...so not short on Second Rows really.

The backs in that Saxons squad...WOW...cant wait to see them at KP v Scotland!!!

Just 1 fly half in the Saxons....

Clark? That's an odd one.

Disappointed not to see George Kruis in the Saxons but with so many Saracens players in both squads I can hardly complain.

I don't know enough about Clarke but he served his time and has the right to show he has learned.

As an old teacher of mine used to say, the man who never made a mistake never made anything

Saxon fly halves - Wigglesworth has played there and its something that has been talked about with Eastmond. I guess there is that Ford guy too

I agree Jimpy,
I've not seen anything even when he's playing for Saints that suggests he should come straight back in to EPS.
I would have been surprised if he was even in the Saxons.

Only 2 hookers in the EPS though! I thought that Grey might have kept his spot maybe - just to add a bit more competition.

Beshocked

Im also amazed that Kruis is not in that squad...certainly id put him in there over Botha!

Kruis over Botha, definitely. Botha's idiotic touch against SA in the dying minutes after the final kickoff still runs deep in me. Stupid.

Very happy to see Twelvetrees finally make the step up.

Strettle has A LOT to prove over the Six Nations.

Tom Johnson's inclusion is a surprise but he's very different to any of the other flanks, so nice to have that added dimension.

Clark is a strange one! Is he really there to cover 2nd row?? Surely he's not big enough? And he hasn't played great there when I've seen him. In fact, is he playing well this season??

Lancaster obviously thinks he can provide something to the EPS, maybe that added grunt. Didn't he selected him in an equally suprising manner a while ago? Or am I mistaken?

Slightly surprised to see Tom Croft in the EPS - obviously a plenty good enough player to be there, but after his injury lay-off still has a lot of work to do even to get back to match fitness.

Clark? Well, Lancaster must REALLY rate him to bring him straight back to the EPS after his ban. Not a populist pick for sure...

Good to see that SL has been swayed by 606 opinion and included Billy 36 in the EPS rather than Allen or JT-H.

Would have liked to see Waldrom replaced, but I guess we can hold off for a while until one of the young up-and-coming 8s is a bit more experienced and big match ready.

Some exciting back talent in the Saxons, not least the two RL converts.

Lostinwales yes there is Ford but Wigglesworth and Eastmond aren't fly halves.

True Geordiefalcon.

Agree bluestonevedder.

It's not a bad squad overall though is it?

Jimpy wrote:I am not pleased Clarke is selected, regardless of form, he deliberately broke another player's arm and got a 32 week ban. He should not be considered on that basis alone.

Let it go will you, I understand there will always be a bit of hatred towards him but he did the time that was given to him. So long as he keeps his head down and works on his rugby I have no issues with him being the EPS.

On Callum Clarke there was this comment from Neil Back Jan 2012, when Clarke was previously named in the EPS (before the ban incident).
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/world-cup-legend-neil-back-165187

Interesting story on Clark PDL but Neil is going on knowledge from his Leeds days as is Lancs knowledge of him.

How long has he been at the Saints now and how in general has he performed. Obviously they ALL see something in him...

Is he better than say Kvesic at the moment...who is playing pretty much every game for Wuss...

I cant answer that Geordie - I cant see what they all presumably do about Clarke.
Although I do see that spark in the way Kvesic plays.

beshocked wrote:Lostinwales yes there is Ford but Wigglesworth and Eastmond aren't fly halves.

True Geordiefalcon.

Agree bluestonevedder.

It's not a bad squad overall though is it?

Not at all. Overall I like both squads. At the end of the day, no one's ever going to be fully in agreement with the selections. I am happy though. Should be able to put out a strong starting 15 (basically the one that beat NZ), and a decent bench.

Wasn't Clark already in the EPS? I seem to recall in July thinking his inclusion was madness as he was still serving his ban and was barely going to be available. I felt at the time SL had made a grave error in including him; he has served his ban so by that token should be free to be included, however, his actions were as bad as I have ever witnessed and personally I feel he should never play for England.

In general the selection is pretty much as expected. Glaws will be in a world of trouble if Burns and 36 are selected, but it is fantastic that they are both included. I feel very sorry for Sharples being dropped as he has been made to be somewhat of a scapegoat. Ironically, he has been playing his best rugby for over a year in the last few months. I've never rated Strettle, he has incredible potential but seems to play with blinkers on and misses far too many overlaps or space; if he could change that he could be a very good player. Either way it doesn't make much difference as SL will just play a FB at LW!

Points of discussion seem to come down to
- Clark wtf?
- anyone but Waldrom ( e.g. Easter)
- Strettle instead of Wade

Of these guys and the options I guess Waldrom may well make the bench and its a toss up between Strettle and an FB for the left wing - but more likely they are (injury willing) just making up the numbers

As for the Saxon games I guess the spare FH from the senior squad could provide back up to Ford.

lostinwales wrote:Points of discussion seem to come down to
- Clark wtf?
- anyone but Waldrom ( e.g. Easter)
- Strettle instead of Wade

Of these guys and the options I guess Waldrom may well make the bench and its a toss up between Strettle and an FB for the left wing - but more likely they are (injury willing) just making up the numbers

As for the Saxon games I guess the spare FH from the senior squad could provide back up to Ford.

I hope we don't see Waldrom on the bench. I think it's likely to be Haskell, acting as the utility forward covering all 3 backrow positions to a high level. Hopefully him over Waldrom any day!

As most people have said on the whole this is a brilliant squad and I really feel lancaster is making some good descisions going forward. I'm most happy to see freddie burns and 12trees cement there place in the squad as these guys have been pushing hard for a while now.

As with most posters i agree Calum Clarke is the only real point of contention, hes not a second row and will not be played there he's been selected as a flanker, which leaves second row a bit light with injury prone Lawes as one of the trio.

There may be some method to the madness however with Tom Croft not match fit and unable to play every week under docters orders(he may only be in the squad to ease him back in) , Tom Wood has only just recovered from a career threatening toe injury and for the rest of his playing days has to miss some midweek training sessions to 'manage' the condition. That leaves the brand hask as the only other option who is 100%. Forgetting clarkes GBH on hawkins Clarke has buckets of potential and covers 6 and 7, I would suggest he is in the squad as a future project with a view to come good over the summer/ next year. I dont necessariy agree with it and would much rather see the wee beefcake armitage or a genuine second row such as kitchener or attwood but i can potentially understand it.

Good points stirdychris

I hadn't heard aboiut Wood having to 'manage' his injury by skipping a few sessions. Where did you hear this?

I don't care how good Clark is, though what i've seen of his form isn't good enough for him to make the 23 on merit. His ban was farcical and together with previous actions I don't see any evidence that he is the kind of man, not player, that I want to represent the country I love. I'm sorry if I sound judgmental and I agree in 2nd chances and people's facility to change but these need to be earned with humbleness and demonstration of a change of character an I see none of this here. I feel somewhat that Lancaster is highly compromising his principles with the stench of hypocrisy

Only a couple of negatives really...and im not sure if Clark is a negative or not...as so many senior ex pros seem to rave about the guy...he must have something.

I do wish Kruis had been included in the Saxons...however young Slater is a similar player who himself has been excellent recently...we seemed to be blessed with a number of young SR's coming through with power, agression and ability to play 6 aswell...Launchbury is the other obvious one.

Botha maybe should have been dropped altogether...but i guess he offers a little bit of experience and an older calmer head out there...whilst the youngsters build up some experience.

Can find too many faults at all with these two squads...

As with most posters i agree Calum Clarke is the only real point of contention, hes not a second row and will not be played there he's been selected as a flanker, which leaves second row a bit light with injury prone Lawes as one of the trio.

Nah mate...if any get injured Palmer, Slater, Robson, Deacon and Botha are in the Saxons ready just to move straight up...no issues at all...

I do not believe the main squad needs 8 back row forwards. Especially as including Launchbury and Lawes we have 8 players able to cover 6. Even with Croft's injury - the extra cover seems silly.

Slightly surprised by Clark, also surprised that Strettle continuously seems to hang in the EPS. Not sure his club form this season justifies that.

bluestonevedder wrote:Kruis over Botha, definitely. Botha's idiotic touch against SA in the dying minutes after the final kickoff still runs deep in me. Stupid.

Very happy to see Twelvetrees finally make the step up.

Strettle has A LOT to prove over the Six Nations.

Tom Johnson's inclusion is a surprise but he's very different to any of the other flanks, so nice to have that added dimension.

Clark is a strange one! Is he really there to cover 2nd row?? Surely he's not big enough? And he hasn't played great there when I've seen him. In fact, is he playing well this season??

Lancaster obviously thinks he can provide something to the EPS, maybe that added grunt. Didn't he selected him in an equally suprising manner a while ago? Or am I mistaken?

Baffling selection - I think he's only scored one try all season so far, there has to be a better winger out there than him.

nathan wrote:

Jimpy wrote:I am not pleased Clarke is selected, regardless of form, he deliberately broke another player's arm and got a 32 week ban. He should not be considered on that basis alone.

Let it go will you, I understand there will always be a bit of hatred towards him but he did the time that was given to him. So long as he keeps his head down and works on his rugby I have no issues with him being the EPS.

Plenty agree with me.

Not that I worry about the Tigers but who do they have in reserve for SR as SL has picked all 4 of their SRs

Blue

I think i read it in the rugby paper saying the toe will never really heal but they have strengthen it to the point he can play again and has to constantly monitor it and watch his workload.....have found this article which basically describes it

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/news/9556669/Northamptons-Tom-Wood-wants-England-recall-after-emerging-from-long-injury-battle.html

Clark started at 5. for Saints a few weeks ago and he has played there a few times for Saints. I agree that he's in the squad really as a Flanker but i'd really have expected Lancs to have called up Deacon as an injury replacement for Croft. If Lawes picks up an injury I suppose he'll have to call up Deacon, Kitchener or Slater who's made it into the Squad.

From the point of view of merit there isn't really anyone else who's been really demanding inclusion at EPS level. Kitchener has been doing well and i'm surprised that Savage hasn't made it into the Saxons but no other locks really standing out in the league other than Samu Manoa!

I'm really happy with the squads overall. Allen, Botha, Turner-Hall and Dowson out which I think most on here would have changed. 36, Burns and the others also well deserving of places. Light at lock and over catered for in the back-row but that's how Lancs likes his squads.

Looks like the right squad to me although Tom Varndell must have upset the dressing room or something to not even make the Saxons.

Anyone any ideas why?

Jimpy wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Kruis over Botha, definitely. Botha's idiotic touch against SA in the dying minutes after the final kickoff still runs deep in me. Stupid.

Very happy to see Twelvetrees finally make the step up.

Strettle has A LOT to prove over the Six Nations.

Tom Johnson's inclusion is a surprise but he's very different to any of the other flanks, so nice to have that added dimension.

Clark is a strange one! Is he really there to cover 2nd row?? Surely he's not big enough? And he hasn't played great there when I've seen him. In fact, is he playing well this season??

Lancaster obviously thinks he can provide something to the EPS, maybe that added grunt. Didn't he selected him in an equally suprising manner a while ago? Or am I mistaken?

Baffling selection - I think he's only scored one try all season so far, there has to be a better winger out there than him.

Completely. There are better options. I thought he only scored once this season too, though I got corrected because apparently he scored against Munster too?

We can't have 2 starting wingers who are in the habit of not scoring!

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:Looks like the right squad to me although Tom Varndell must have upset the dressing room or something to not even make the Saxons.

Anyone any ideas why?

I was under the impression that he'd had his chances, but he was a defensive liability and not good under the high ball. No issues with his attacking though, he's a potent finisher. I just think in today's came, you've got to be a good all-rounder.

Also nice to see that Billy V will be training in the squad as cover for Croft. It'll a) give him a chance to see what the training intensity is like at the top level and b) push the other 2 fatties at 8 to see if they can up their game. I like Morgan a lot at 8 but his defence does need the same power his carrying has. That's something Billy V does do.

Good to see Shaun Knight in the Saxons as well he'll hopefully learn a lot there.

bluestonevedder wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Kruis over Botha, definitely. Botha's idiotic touch against SA in the dying minutes after the final kickoff still runs deep in me. Stupid.

Very happy to see Twelvetrees finally make the step up.

Strettle has A LOT to prove over the Six Nations.

Tom Johnson's inclusion is a surprise but he's very different to any of the other flanks, so nice to have that added dimension.

Clark is a strange one! Is he really there to cover 2nd row?? Surely he's not big enough? And he hasn't played great there when I've seen him. In fact, is he playing well this season??

Lancaster obviously thinks he can provide something to the EPS, maybe that added grunt. Didn't he selected him in an equally suprising manner a while ago? Or am I mistaken?

Baffling selection - I think he's only scored one try all season so far, there has to be a better winger out there than him.

Completely. There are better options. I thought he only scored once this season too, though I got corrected because apparently he scored against Munster too?

We can't have 2 starting wingers who are in the habit of not scoring!

I agree totally but I think it's a case of Farrell demanding defence first. Hence we haven't seen Wade and Sharples drops out for some defensive lapses. It's what JSD had held against him and I hope it doesn't affect Wade in the same way.

bluestonevedder wrote:

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:Looks like the right squad to me although Tom Varndell must have upset the dressing room or something to not even make the Saxons.

Anyone any ideas why?

I was under the impression that he'd had his chances, but he was a defensive liability and not good under the high ball. No issues with his attacking though, he's a potent finisher. I just think in today's came, you've got to be a good all-rounder.

Its probably because he's bone idle.

rosbif wrote:Not that I worry about the Tigers but who do they have in reserve for SR as SL has picked all 4 of their SRs

We have a South African, Rob Andrew and I am guessing Richard Thorpe can play there as well. Of the youngsters I am not sure but we will be down to the bare bones, although with 3 of them in the Saxons, I imagine at least 1 will be released.

Sometimes you have to ignore a players weakness though and look to their strengths....if the Kiwis or Saffas or Aussies or even the french had a player like Wade do you think they'd be saying..."hhhmmm well he's not very good defensively".....NO!!!!
They be saying Jeez man this kid's better than fush n chups...get him in the squad!!!

Leaving club bias aside please; Varndell's never had a proper go at the England jersey, unlike Strettle for eg and his defense is far better than most in his position. No, I'm convinced that there must be more to this.

lostinwales wrote:Points of discussion seem to come down to
- Clark wtf?
- anyone but Waldrom ( e.g. Easter)
- Strettle instead of Wade

Agree, plus
- No Varndell in either squad.
- Tom Croft: He's not going to be ready for the 6N, so why not leave him out till the summer tour.

I think Callum Clark hasn't quite served his time. He should be told: "Regain your old form and get no penalties for malicious play, and you can join in the summer".

rosbif wrote:Not that I worry about the Tigers but who do they have in reserve for SR as SL has picked all 4 of their SRs

Saxons only play two matches, only one of which coincides with a 6Ns weekend. Also as the Saxons not only have 3 tigers Locks but also Robson, Palmer and Botha - it is unlikely that all 4 locks would feature on the same weekend.

If they did - Rob Andrew (the saffer not squeeky) and Steve Mafi could cover. there are a couple of academy Locks who have featured for the "A" team this season (Joe Cain I think is one)

When do clubs lose their EPS players etc for training with Lancaster?

I don't think I can remember a time when we could assemble 2 squads with the potential on display here. Yes, there are a couple of surprises but overall there should be enough in the EPS to be very competitive and to leave us with no excuses for failure. We now have the possibility of matching forward play with an attacking back line. Can't wait now to see if this coaching setup can build on their remarkable achievement against the ABs.

On the Callum Clarke issue I will reserve judgement. From the little I've seen in the AP he looks less likely to be stupid but less fired up as well. We'll see if he responds to the faith put in him.

ChequeredJersey wrote:When do clubs lose their EPS players etc for training with Lancaster?

Think they gather on the 20th January to prepare?

So after the HEC rounds?

Yeh, I guess it would be the everning of the 20th so that they can all play their HEC games...surely?

So should Twelvetrees be given the 23 shirt to start with? I'd hope to see a backline like the one below:

9. Care
10. Farrel
11. Brown
12. Barrit
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Goode

21. Youngs
22. Burns
23. Twelvetrees

Pretty unchanged from the NZ game and means that when SL subs on Burns he can then have his team mate 36 come on as well to keep a bit of continuity. Not sure if Lancaster would trust Twelvetrees with the defence though or if he'd sub Manu off instead of Barrit.

yappysnap wrote:So should Twelvetrees be given the 23 shirt to start with? I'd hope to see a backline like the one below:

9. Care
10. Farrel
11. Brown
12. Barrit
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Goode

21. Youngs
22. Burns
23. Twelvetrees

Pretty unchanged from the NZ game and means that when SL subs on Burns he can then have his team mate 36 come on as well to keep a bit of continuity. Not sure if Lancaster would trust Twelvetrees with the defence though or if he'd sub Manu off instead of Barrit.

Only problem with that is who would cover the wing if one of the back 3 got injured? I suppose you could put Manu there but I would prefer to keep him in his normal position where he is most effective. With Joseph on the bench you can cover both and still keep Burns in. I don't think you can have both Burns and 36 on the bench.

Jimpy wrote:

nathan wrote:

Jimpy wrote:I am not pleased Clarke is selected, regardless of form, he deliberately broke another player's arm and got a 32 week ban. He should not be considered on that basis alone.

Let it go will you, I understand there will always be a bit of hatred towards him but he did the time that was given to him. So long as he keeps his head down and works on his rugby I have no issues with him being the EPS.

Plenty agree with me.

And?