My 10 Minutes of TNA...

First topic message reminder :

Last night i decided i'd catch a bit of TNA before bed time...... what a load of toss.

I tuned in just after 11, literally as Abyss was coming out for his match with RVD, who literally smashed Abyss' teeth in within seconds of the match starting. You could tell Abyss was in alot of pain, and some of his blows to RVD in the corner looked pretty stiff but overall the match was awful, RVD made a complete mess of trying to carry the match around Abyss' injury and the ending was almost botched as Abyss didn't get the lead pipe out of the ring. After the match, we got TNA's crown jewel. A run in. By Crimson. Who can't run properly.

Then there was a weird Jeff Hardy promo, which i guessed meant they were going down the angle of exploiting his problems. Brilliant. Maybe after Jeff rides his magical mountain bike of sobriety the wrong way down a bus lane they can do the same for Kurt Angle.

Then came the crowning glory. The bullet to my head that finally made me switch off........ 2 words......... Scott Steiner. Oh yes, the legendary one man vocabulary lesson gave us a lesson in cutting promo's. Plenty of shouting, nonsensical ramblings and probably the best line of recent years to Matt Morgan....

Scott Steiner wrote:"If I had your DNA, I would shoot myself. I take that back, I would kill myself then hang myself. You will never have oranges as big as mine"

Epic.

Ouch, burn or what. TNA is undoubtably ridiculous but the talent they have and the show itself when away from the pitiful iMPACT! Zone can generate a top atmosphere, I've probably been watching TNA for longer than you even knew of its existance and if you can't recognise itrs obvious flaws then its 'marks' like you that wil inadvertedly continue to hold the product back....simples

No I recognise the NUMEROUS problems asociated with Tna, but I enjoy it, and far prefer it to wwe, but I dont feel the need to come and make posts running down all the rudey poo coming from wwe.

We know the probllems, and dont need them telling to us every other day. Some of us love TNA in spite of the problems they have.

So if you don't need to hear the problems why did you actively seek out a thread that was obviously going to bash it? I never miss iMPACT! but not one single TNA fan will ever convince me they genuinely enjoy it because all it ever does is frustrate with one bad decision after another after another and the only thing that saves them is the matcher at PPV's

How did I actively seek out a Tna bashing thread, " my ten minutes of TNA" could have referred to them seeing an amazing wrestler and being blown away by him but beign too tired to watch the whole episode. . .

Id say I enjoy 75% of the content of TNA, but I know a lot of stuff I personally would change to improve the product.

the-gaffer wrote:So if you don't need to hear the problems why did you actively seek out a thread that was obviously going to bash it? I never miss iMPACT! but not one single TNA fan will ever convince me they genuinely enjoy it because all it ever does is frustrate with one bad decision after another after another and the only thing that saves them is the matcher at PPV's

But, considering the problems they face are not structural (as with the WWE) would you argue that they are actually easier to fix.

I mean they already have a good roster, can put on high quality PPV's for the most part and focus on being a wrestling company. Yes the problems such as not touring TNA, Hulk/Bisch/Russo etc are not going to be easy to solve... however, as a wrestling entity they are probably easier to solve if the will is there, than the WWE's issues. Those being of a lack of main event talent beyond a few select names, a roster that doesn't seem to work no matter how it is arranged across two shows, conservative booking due to the influence of VKM, a product that is essentially embarrassed of itself as well as matches and events that more often than not flatter to deceive.

After all, when was the last time anyone watched a WWE event and thought it surpassed their expectations? And not surpassed as in you thought it would be roody poo but it turned out as OK, but were really, really impressed with the whole card? Those kind of difficulties are (imo) harder to solve.

That said I don't watch much TNA and do watch WWE. Now some may say it is hypocritical for me to say this when my viewing patterns don't reflect that; I am not saying that TNA is better than WWE at present (it isn't imo), just that it has the potential to exceed it if its solvable problems are solved. WWE's ones would take much longer to solve if there is the will to do so, which I doubt at this time.

Just to throw this out there BUT if put in charge on TNA, I wouldnt fire Hogan. . .




But id keep him off the screeen for 364 days a year, and have him working in promoting TNA, because no mater how much of a t8rd the guy is, he is still a mainstream BIG name in the wrestling industry.

hockeyking0011 wrote:Just to throw this out there BUT if put in charge on TNA, I wouldnt fire Hogan. . .




But id keep him off the screeen for 364 days a year, and have him working in promoting TNA, because no mater how much of a t8rd the guy is, he is still a mainstream BIG name in the wrestling industry.

Yes, he should have no creative control but be just associated with the brand - it is the best way to get mainstream approval etc.

That is what I mean about solvable problems though - if the will is there they can easily remove the decision makers who are causing the problems with the show. Not sure if it is with Dixie and her gang though. It would be a great show for a network to buy though, they would be able to get rid of the deadwood and be left with a very solid and marketable product.

OK apologies if you really didn't think it was a TNA bash, by the way I wasn't saying don't stick up for TNA, Shout what you like about it, most of the people I know who bash it do it because they actually like it and cant understand why people who have been in the Biz for so long cant write or book a decent consistant show, Hogan is strangling the company with his constant need to be onscreen, TNA haven't even got a top heel probably because Hogan is so up himself he thinks anyone aligned with him can Main Event

the-gaffer wrote:OK apologies if you really didn't think it was a TNA bash, by the way I wasn't saying don't stick up for TNA, Shout what you like about it, most of the people I know who bash it do it because they actually like it and cant understand why people who have been in the Biz for so long cant write or book a decent consistant show, Hogan is strangling the company with his constant need to be onscreen, TNA haven't even got a top heel probably because Hogan is so up himself he thinks anyone aligned with him can Main Event

Good point Gaffer - it is why Sting, RVD, Anderson doesn't really work. The animosity feels forced as they are all fan favourites. Hogan's tactic of trying to turn one of them is rather boring now and really should have involved Anderson becoming heel a while ago.

Otherwise Hogan should just use his authority position to book one of his heels in the title picture at least so that we can have a normal feud instead of some mad cap Russo one.

You've also got Kurt Angle ,Fortune and Matt Morgan, the only things the heel side can muster is Bully Ray Matt Hardy and Jeff Jarrett

TNA pre Hogan was putting on some amazing shows, PPVs with Joe v Daniels v AJ, Angle v Wolfe, MCMG v Beer Money etc, it was quality.
And then the Hogan era began...
Daniels jobbing to Sean Morley.
The return of Scott Hall, Nasty Boys, Orlando Jordan etc. The originals getting pushed down the roster.

I'm not a WWE fanboy, I want TNA to succeed, I want competition in wrestling as from that the product as a whole improves.
Yet since Hogan took over what has he done that has been good in TNA?
Anderson has shown his potential he only hinted at in WWE.
That's it.
Hogan hasn't pushed anyone new, he hasn't brought through the ranks a new guy nor scoured the indys for the next big thing (Bucks weren't his signing). We have main events of ex WCW guys v ex ECW guys. We have a 52 year old World Champion whilst guys like Matt Morgan continue to flounder in the mid card. We don't have a main event heel? We have guys like Jay Lethal getting released because they don't have anything for him yet they have for others like Rob Terry, Gunner & Murphy?
They had a great female division full of women who could actually wrestle, now it's simply a clone of WWE divas.
They had an unique selling point of the X Division, now it's treated as a curtain opener on most PPVs.
They had a cracking tag division that put WWE's to shame (though in fairness they still do due to WWE's getting even worse!), now they have a 4 way tornado tag match at the PPV for what reason? Number 1 contendership? No, just a random cage match with a Russo rule.

They have a great roster, they have the ingrediants, but they have a management team that don't know their ar$e from their elbow.

Couldn't agree more Hero - though Hogan was necessary in terms of breaking TNA through the stranglehold of WWE so they got exposure etc. He should just have never been given any creative control.

I think it is a mixture thing though. You could have Sting in TNA if he was being used to put over younger talent instead of feuding with a spaced out RVD.

Imagine Hogan recruiting Matt Morgan or Samoa Joe, making them a monster heel to take on Sting - there could be some great matches. Plus, with Sting likely to be on his final lap, surely he would want to go out with a bit of a bang instead of a couple of weak and forgettable feuds?...

Bringing Hogan in could have been a turning point in the right direction as you said, at the time TNA was really moving in the right direction after the disaster that was the MEM v Frontline had finished.
Morgan should be exactly the guy that Hogan is using rather than Abyss etc. Bulky Ray is a great heel but he's never been a main event singles guy and at this point of his career never will, he's only there to get people over, Fatt Hardy thinks he's main event but that's when he wakes up and forgets he's not Jeff.
Anderson should have never have been turned face/tweener, they saw the Austin style and the fans backing him etc so tried to cash in at a point when they desperately needed him to remain heel, but a heel can only be a heel if given heel characteristics, I'm always of the belief that any wrestler can be turned or kept heel if the guys backstage do their work properly with character development and storylines.

The guy delivering has to come across as heel to tho, in fairness he was until after Lockdown

KB? Did you watch the first half hour? It was awsom! Scott
Steiner is rediculous but to be honest in enjoy his presence, he is TNAs version of santino and provides comic relief I like that from time to time in a wrestling show I think your a little harsh on TNA the start of the show was excellent and they have some
Interesting feuds developing

Hockeyking,

I've been watching TNA for years. I remember watching the first Victory Road when Jeff Hardy lost the ladder match to Jarrett and then Savage debuted. I was watching as much as possible because i was a huge Jeff Hardy mark back then and i'd lost touch with WWE and found a new outlet. My 'review' is because everytime i turn on TNA at the moment, something cringworthingly horrible is going down.

I'm not a WWE 'mark' as you put it. I actually believe the WWE has some huge flaws and completely agree with the above comments that TNA would be EASIER to fix than the WWE. That being said, WWE has one constant. It's consistently average. With the odd moment of brilliance. TNA, however, is too inconsistent on all levels. You have the epically shoddy Victory Road, followed by 4 weeks of poor Impacts and then a Lockdown which was quite good.

TNA easily have the more talented guys. The likes of Roode, Anderson, Morgan, Styles, Daniels and Joe could carry that company for years and hit them straight up as a legit competitor but instead, you've got Matt Hardy, Bully Ray, Hogan, Flair and RVD around the main event scene, with Bischoff and Russo booking interference and BS endings as every turn.

Casing point, the main event at Lockdown should've been the World Title match, it could've been an excellent match inside a cage, and carried the Hogan BS ending off, but instead, you get 10 minutes dedicated to the strap. And what's the focal point in the main event..... Hogan and his faction.

Hogan, along with Russo is killing TNA. Keeping Hogan off screen 364 days a year wouldn't work. He would still find a way to corrupt the product, name drop himself and somehow make it all about him. Bischoff is just as bad but i actually think if you got someone who isn't so keen to have it all about him alongside him, he'd be alright.

The only people in my honest opinion that can save TNA are probably 2 people who right now want nothing to do with the product. Mick Foley and Paul Heyman.

I actually read somewhere the other day that they were back in negotiations with Heyman because his UFC deal fell through.

I would take that with a massive pinch of salt.

The thing is that we all want TNA to succeed, competition is good and TNA being a viable threat would force WWE to up their game. Right now we've got the #1 wrestling promotion coasting along on a wave of apathy, and the #2 wrestling promotion is struggling to find its identity and a semblance of coherence.

TNA gets so much stick because for every thing they do right, they do 10 things wrong and it's the same sh|t over & over & over again. Every wrong thing that gets done can be traced back to 1 of 5 people; Hogan, Bischoff, Russo, Clueless and Jarrett. There is no hope for that company whilst those people are at the helm.

Totally agree with KB that Foley and Heyman in complete control would save TNA and help them to grow, only trouble is that would mean ditching those in charge right now and TNA don't have the balls to do that.

David Tails wrote:I actually read somewhere the other day that they were back in negotiations with Heyman because his UFC deal fell through.

I would take that with a massive pinch of salt.

Heyman is still writing his book and then touring with it, that won't be finished until September. He's very reluctant to go near the product with Hogan, Russo and Bischoff in charge.

King Beer wrote:

David Tails wrote:I actually read somewhere the other day that they were back in negotiations with Heyman because his UFC deal fell through.

I would take that with a massive pinch of salt.

Heyman is still writing his book and then touring with it, that won't be finished until September. He's very reluctant to go near the product with Hogan, Russo and Bischoff in charge.

Hence why I would take it with a massive pinch of salt.

He would be perfect at taking the product forward...but I just can't see him doing it with the ego's of Hogan, Bischoff and Russo running the showing. Sorry that should be ruining.

Watched a bit of it myself these last few weeks. Ignoring the fact that most stories very little makes sense, some of the promo work is completely amateur. Hogan burying RVD (and marking out for himself in the process) by calling him a middle of the road wrestler. Bully Ray did the same with AJ by calling him 'a nothing'.

Why would I invest my time watching 'middle of the road' and 'nothing' wrestlers? This is basic stuff that TNA seem to be getting wrong constantly.

liverbnz wrote:Watched a bit of it myself these last few weeks. Ignoring the fact that most stories very little makes sense, some of the promo work is completely amateur. Hogan burying RVD (and marking out for himself in the process) by calling him a middle of the road wrestler. Bully Ray did the same with AJ by calling him 'a nothing'.

Why would I invest my time watching 'middle of the road' and 'nothing' wrestlers? This is basic stuff that TNA seem to be getting wrong constantly.

But isnt that the point of a heel - to run down the face?

Hobo wrote:

liverbnz wrote:Watched a bit of it myself these last few weeks. Ignoring the fact that most stories very little makes sense, some of the promo work is completely amateur. Hogan burying RVD (and marking out for himself in the process) by calling him a middle of the road wrestler. Bully Ray did the same with AJ by calling him 'a nothing'.

Why would I invest my time watching 'middle of the road' and 'nothing' wrestlers? This is basic stuff that TNA seem to be getting wrong constantly.

But isnt that the point of a heel - to run down the face?

I think it's the wording. Bully Ray; who has never (to my knowledge) won a world title, is calling a former world champion a 'nothing' wrestler.

King Beer wrote:

Hobo wrote:

liverbnz wrote:Watched a bit of it myself these last few weeks. Ignoring the fact that most stories very little makes sense, some of the promo work is completely amateur. Hogan burying RVD (and marking out for himself in the process) by calling him a middle of the road wrestler. Bully Ray did the same with AJ by calling him 'a nothing'.

Why would I invest my time watching 'middle of the road' and 'nothing' wrestlers? This is basic stuff that TNA seem to be getting wrong constantly.

But isnt that the point of a heel - to run down the face?

I think it's the wording. Bully Ray; who has never (to my knowledge) won a world title, is calling a former world champion a 'nothing' wrestler.

Fair point but I think its a poor reason to run down TNA due to a heel being mean about a face! There are plenty of valid reasons to run TNA down after all!

Hobo wrote:

King Beer wrote:

Hobo wrote:

liverbnz wrote:Watched a bit of it myself these last few weeks. Ignoring the fact that most stories very little makes sense, some of the promo work is completely amateur. Hogan burying RVD (and marking out for himself in the process) by calling him a middle of the road wrestler. Bully Ray did the same with AJ by calling him 'a nothing'.

Why would I invest my time watching 'middle of the road' and 'nothing' wrestlers? This is basic stuff that TNA seem to be getting wrong constantly.

But isnt that the point of a heel - to run down the face?

I think it's the wording. Bully Ray; who has never (to my knowledge) won a world title, is calling a former world champion a 'nothing' wrestler.

Fair point but I think its a poor reason to run down TNA due to a heel being mean about a face! There are plenty of valid reasons to run TNA down after all!

I wouldn't say it's a poor reason. You tune in to watch 'professional' wrestlers in a so called 'professional' sport, yet, this is a classic example of something in TNA that is far from professional.

Heels almost always see the face as "nothing" though, that's the whole point. When the face then goes over in the storyline the heel looks like an idiot, it's how wrestling has almost always been booked. Having respect for the opponent is not really a character trait which can a heel any heat, and for Bully Ray's character, it would be completely inconsistent.

Agreed TNA is pretty poor at the moment, and have to salute those who are faithfully tuning in regardless of this. Similar to King Beer, I just can't bring myself to watch an entire episode anymore, as there's just nothing that draws me in at the moment. Everytime I switch on it's either Hogan, Bischoff or Flair on-screen, you wouldn't think TNA has any young talent on the roster!

Hobo wrote:

liverbnz wrote:Watched a bit of it myself these last few weeks. Ignoring the fact that most stories very little makes sense, some of the promo work is completely amateur. Hogan burying RVD (and marking out for himself in the process) by calling him a middle of the road wrestler. Bully Ray did the same with AJ by calling him 'a nothing'.

Why would I invest my time watching 'middle of the road' and 'nothing' wrestlers? This is basic stuff that TNA seem to be getting wrong constantly.

But isnt that the point of a heel - to run down the face?

You can say you are better than someone without burying them. You can't expect fans to invest their emotions into your stars if you are going to call them 'nothings'. Why would anyone want to spend there hard-earned cash on 'a nothing' vs 'middle of the road guy'? You build your stars up, make people care, make people wanna spend their money.

The age old rule of wrestling promos is to never belittle your opponent's abilities. If you say he's rubbish and you beat him, big deal; you beat a rubbish wrestler. If you say he's rubbish and he beats you; you look like a tool because you lost to a rubbish wrestler.

There are plenty of ways for a heel to run down a babyface without resorting to calling him a 'nothing wrestler'.

I often steer clear of any TNA v WWE debates, mainly because while I am a WWE fan, I also watch and enjoy TNA.

But at the moment I enjoy TNA more than I enjoy WWE! And looking at both products as a whole (or should that be hole) both WWE and TNA are utter garbage at the moment!

I went to WWE Raw at the O2 last week, and the down point of my trip to the O2 was... The show! Everything about the day was quality, the drinking, the travel, meeting other wrestling fans, LOLing at wrestling fans with their expensive replica belts over their student shoulders while backbody dropping a mate outside the O2 as we wore Luchador masks! Then we went to see Raw and it was terrible! Poor matches, poor promos, poor atmosphere. It makes you realise how much commentary, aka Michael Cole carries the show.

As for TNA, well. It is garbage, but it is completely different to the WWE. Mr Anderson is the high point of the show by a long shot. Week in, week out, he seems to carry TNA. And as a big RVD fan, him being there is another reason to watch, even if he is a shadow of his former self. There are some truly awful matches and booking decisions in TNA, but as was pointed out earlier, TNA has inconsistancy. That is essentially a good thing.

People stopped watching WWE because it was predictable, average and consistantly dull.

People can't stop watching TNA because it's unpredictable, could be terrible, could be brilliant! You can't take your eyes off of it, even if the biggest parts of the show this week were Kurt Angle covering his ex-wife in Poopie and Hulk Hogan hobbling around with a pipe.

In summary, they're both awful, but if you were choosing between the two for entertainment purposes, you'd pick TNA.

Marky wrote:I often steer clear of any TNA v WWE debates, mainly because while I am a WWE fan, I also watch and enjoy TNA.

But at the moment I enjoy TNA more than I enjoy WWE! And looking at both products as a whole (or should that be hole) both WWE and TNA are utter garbage at the moment!

I went to WWE Raw at the O2 last week, and the down point of my trip to the O2 was... The show! Everything about the day was quality, the drinking, the travel, meeting other wrestling fans, LOLing at wrestling fans with their expensive replica belts over their student shoulders while backbody dropping a mate outside the O2 as we wore Luchador masks! Then we went to see Raw and it was terrible! Poor matches, poor promos, poor atmosphere. It makes you realise how much commentary, aka Michael Cole carries the show.

As for TNA, well. It is garbage, but it is completely different to the WWE. Mr Anderson is the high point of the show by a long shot. Week in, week out, he seems to carry TNA. And as a big RVD fan, him being there is another reason to watch, even if he is a shadow of his former self. There are some truly awful matches and booking decisions in TNA, but as was pointed out earlier, TNA has inconsistancy. That is essentially a good thing.

People stopped watching WWE because it was predictable, average and consistantly dull.

People can't stop watching TNA because it's unpredictable, could be terrible, could be brilliant! You can't take your eyes off of it, even if the biggest parts of the show this week were Kurt Angle covering his ex-wife in Poopie and Hulk Hogan hobbling around with a pipe.

In summary, they're both awful, but if you were choosing between the two for entertainment purposes, you'd pick TNA.

Erm.... no, i'd pick WWE. Every time.

While Heyman and Foley are two great shouts I'd also throw in names like Dutch Mantel and Scott D'Amore and possibly even Raven that could do a far better job writing and booking TNA if they had the run of the place

TNA should just go mental and get Jeff Hardy, Scott Hall and Jake 'The Snake' Roberts to do the booking.

Lock them all in a room for a day with a pile of crystal meth, cocaine and beer and see what they come up with.

Would it be any worre? P.S I'm shocked the stalker kept my previous comment up

It'd probably be about the same gaffer, except there'd be less Hogan, more run-ins on space hoppers, Texas Death Pizza matches and talking dog promos.

theundisputedY2D2 wrote:TNA should just go mental and get Jeff Hardy, Scott Hall and Jake 'The Snake' Roberts to do the booking.

Lock them all in a room for a day with a pile of crystal meth, cocaine and beer and see what they come up with.

To be fair I can't see it being too disimillar to what Russo is coming up with just now

I've said it before and I'll say it agin I whole heartedly belive that Scott D'Amore would be the ideal choice for TNA's head booker, the man has worked for TNA twice before (firstly as part of a 3 man booking team when TNA was for me at its creative peak and then as head booker of the Knockouts during there inagural period when it was arguably the highlight of the show) so knows the company well and also strikes me as a man who supports strong, logical booking which IMO is exactly what TNA need at this time

You have to say that doesnt sound as bad as 8 Hogan segments and an attempted run in from Crimson

Thrown in at least 3 Scott Steiner promos and Ric Flair, a blade, a wheelchair and a sports jacket and we're talking record ratings here.

Attitude Era? Pffffffff! It's all about the Meth Era.

Just finished watching this weeks Impact!, have to say it was a poor show.
So sick of Hogan's promo's, he's becoming the biggest cliche in wrestling history!
Only bit i enjoyed was Anderson at the end, the 'E really need to get this guy back; he's gold!

Dx Dan. wrote:Just finished watching this weeks Impact!, have to say it was a poor show.
So sick of Hogan's promo's, he's becoming the biggest cliche in wrestling history!
Only bit i enjoyed was Anderson at the end, the 'E really need to get this guy back; he's gold!

Rumour has it he was FE'd because Orton and Cena refused to work with him... that will be 10+ years before he can make a comeback then.

Cena aswell?
Haven't heard that one before.
I thought it was solely Orton's fault.

Dx Dan. wrote:Cena aswell?
Haven't heard that one before.
I thought it was solely Orton's fault.

Apparantly Cena backed Orton up and refused to work with Ken either

That's the story according to Stone Cold Ken Anderson.

Another theory is that Vince was fed up with Anderson anyway, what with him being injured all the time and not living up to the hype of being the next Stone Cold or The Rock. McMahon even went so far as to start calling him "a jumped up ring announcer". Vince was in a foul mood over the whole Denver in RAW/Stan Kroenke debacle that occurred around this time, and was looking for someone to take it out on. Once Anderson had his run-in with Orton that tipped Vince over the edge.

theundisputedY2D2 wrote:Vince was in a foul mood over the whole Denver in RAW/Stan Kroenke debacle that occurred around this time, and was looking for someone to take it out on.

That's not one I have heard of - what happened?

Oh right, cheers for that guys.

JoshSansom wrote:

theundisputedY2D2 wrote:Vince was in a foul mood over the whole Denver in RAW/Stan Kroenke debacle that occurred around this time, and was looking for someone to take it out on.

That's not one I have heard of - what happened?

The NHL playoffs were apparently in the same place as RAW and Kroenke pulled strings to make RAW move causing Vince some cold, hard $$$'s

Mr Kennedy was going nowhere fast in the E anyway, he was never going to get off the WWE Leish

Thanks KB... Wasn't Ken due to be Vince's son until he was FE'd and replaced by Hornswoggle...

As for the Kronke deal, Raw was scheduled to be in his basketball arena, the team made the NBA Playoffs tho and needed to use the arena for their home game

It was an NBA play-off KB. The Denver Nuggets (the team Kroenke owns) were scheduled to play the LA Lakers on the same night as RAW was meant to be in the Pepsi Centre. The WWE had the place booked for that date the previous August, a full 9 months beforehand, but due to the Nuggets making the play-offs and the way the schedule worked out, WWE had to find another place to host RAW.

They eventually switched it to the Staples Centre in Los Angeles, and had a multi-man main event with the faces wearing Lakers tops and the heels wearing Nuggets tops. There was also a really bad sketch with Vince McMahon and Stan Kroenke impersonator.

JoshSansom wrote:Thanks KB... Wasn't Ken due to be Vince's son until he was FE'd and replaced by Hornswoggle...

he was due to be his son but he was wellnessed at the time