Debate: Greatest SA batsmen

The second part of South Africa’s greatest are the batsmen.

South Africa has a unique situation whereby many of our players never got the opportunity to really fulfill their potential status as greats of the game due to a 22 year period of sporting isolation.

So I thought it would be good to have a look at those that have had extended careers, and compare them to those who could, or might still have extensive international careers.

The qualifying criteria are 2000 runs scored. I reckon by the time you have scored 2000 runs you have settled into international cricket.

There is of the factor that batsmen tend to improve as their careers progress.

I have removed all South African batsmen with an average of below, as any chance of them being South Africa’s greatest batsmen or potential greatest batsmen are moot.

So there are two groups of batsmen, those who have scored more than 2000 runs and those who have scored less than 2000 runs.

I also removed all the batsmen who scored less than 1000 runs as the sample data is not sufficient to prove either way.

Although batting average is the most important factor for me, I know Strike rate is an important aspect for many debating the effectiveness of a batsman. So those will be the two criteria used.

What I have done was to use the batsman with the highest strike rate and highestt average as my starting point. They get a value of 100% for the best figure and then in relation to that the rest get their percentage calculated. In other words if one batsman has a strike rate of 60 and another 40, it would mean the latter gets a rating of 66.67%.

For batsmen of the bygone era were I could get samples of their strike rate I used those innings to establish their strike rate, for those pre war, I merely used a strike rate of 45 as run rates were lower then.

I have also weighted Strike rate at 50% of its value and average at 100% of its value. In my view, Strike rate is significant in accelerating an innings, yet runs scored are of paramount importance.

South Africa has 14 batsmen who have scored more than 2000 runs.

Batsmen with more than 2000 runs.



Even though Graeme Pollock only batted 41 innings at international level, I would suggest it is safe to say that he has been arguably South Africa’s best batsman, but for sheer runs and longevity of career Jacques Kallis will have something to say about that.

Graeme Smith with his strike rate show his significant impact he has made in terms of getting South Africa’s innings off to fast starts.

By memory he also holds the record for the most triple century opening partnerships in international cricket.

Batsmen with less than 2000 runs.



I know I said batsmen with less than 1000 runs are removed, but how does one leave out Barry Richards?

Barry Richards.
To consider Barry Richards as the best ever South African batsman you need to go to his first class record. His international career encompasses one test series, by far not enough data to establish him as the greatest South African test batsman, perhaps he should be a contender for best South African first class player? Definitely a would have been great.

In 339 first class matches he scored 28358 runs at an average of 54.74. He was often described as someone who got bored whilst batting, and would find ways to entertain himself and thus getting himself out.

Colin Bland.
Although his career was cut short by South Africa’s isolation, I doubt he would have become more than just a very solid international batsman.

Over his long first class career he averaged only 37.95 with the bat.

Eric Rowan.
Merely a solid cricketer.

Alviro Petersen
Alviro Petersen has finally established himself in the opening position with Graeme Smith as his partner. His record shows that he is a solid batsman, preferring to play the onside, perhaps if he improves his shot making ability on the onside, he might become a contender, having said that, I highly doubt he will become a contender.

Aubrey Faulkner
Perhaps not a challenge for Contender, but when it comes to allrounders, he will certainly have his say.

So in summary, Graeme Pollock would have been up there when it comes to runs scored had he the opportunity to play more tests, but for me Jacque Kallis has proven over the years his longevity and consistency in performances surely puts him at the number one spot.

Graeme smith’s contributions as captain and opening batsman cannot be ignored.

What about kp?

Sorry the list only accommodates those who represent their own country.

Good work, biltong.

Don't think many can argue with Pollock and Kallis being the two best batsmen South Africa have produced, who have also got over 2000 test runs.

Shame that we will never know about Barry.

Graeme Pollock has a claim (only damaged by his lack of Tests, and not playing county cricket to show his skills to a wider audience) to being the 'best after Bradman' - a title he'd contest with Hammond, Hobbs, Richards and Tendulkar.

Kallis must be the second best.

The Ave and SR formula is interesting. I'd suggest it would be more effective for comparing players from the same era (as SRs have changed). However, it seems to produce what I'd consider to be an almost indisputable ranking of SA batsmen, particularly at the top end.

Shelsey93 wrote:Graeme Pollock has a claim (only damaged by his lack of Tests, and not playing county cricket to show his skills to a wider audience) to being the 'best after Bradman' - a title he'd contest with Hammond, Hobbs, Richards and Tendulkar.

Kallis must be the second best.

The Ave and SR formula is interesting. I'd suggest it would be more effective for comparing players from the same era (as SRs have changed). However, it seems to produce what I'd consider to be an almost indisputable ranking of SA batsmen, particularly at the top end.

Yeah, I couldn't decide what weighting to give strike rate.

It once again becomes an "era" thing.

Do we give batsmen of the bygone era more less weighting when it comes to strike bowlers, and the bowlers of the modern day era more credit for their records due to equipment.

"Alviro Petersen"

No chance in a million years will Alviro Petersen ever come close to being even a contender in the Greatest SA batsmen category.

Looking through the history of SA cricket, Herbie Taylor has to be considered as he was the only SA batsman who had the skill and technique and ability to combat the menace of England's champion bowler SF Barnes. Also whilst Colin Bland may be a contender for the greatest SA fielder, his batting was merely average at best. Players who deserve a mention for being a contender for the greatest SA batsmen are Denis Lindsay who averaged the highest of all the SA players V Australia in 1966. Brian Irvine who averaged 41 odd in his only test series V Australia in 1970 and guys from the isolation era of the 1980's such as Jimmy Cook, Clive Rice and Peter Kirsten who if they had played test cricket in their prime years could well have been contenders for being the greatest SA batsman.

Gboycottnut, unfortunately that is the situation with SA cricketers of that era, nothing we ca do about it.


It is what it is.

Biltong wrote:Gboycottnut, unfortunately that is the situation with SA cricketers of that era, nothing we ca do about it.


It is what it is.

How good do you think then that guys like Jimmy Cook, Clive Rice, Peter Kirsten and Ken McEwan could have done if they were allowed to play for SA in the 80's against these following bowling attacks:-

1) West Indies formidable and fearsome 1984 pace quartet V Australia of Marshall, Garner, Holding, Daniel.
2) England's 1985 Trent Bridge attack of Botham, Allott, Sidebottom, Emburey, Edmonds.
3) Pakistan's 1987 tour of England bowling unit of Imran, Wasim, Mohsin Kamal, Abdul Qadir, Mudassar Nazir.
4) New Zealand's 1986 tour of England bowling unit of Hadlee, Chatfield, Coney, Bracewell,Gray.
5) Australia's mighty 1985 Edgbaston test bowling unit of McDermott, Lawson, Thomson, O'Donnell, Holland.

I have called Kallis the greatest cricketer in history many times on this site. But surely it is unarguable that the greatest batsman in the history of SA is Graeme Pollock? He was a titan. I remember a story about him- The day Barry Richards scored 140 vs Aus, one of the Chappel brothers remarked- `We in trouble mate, because whatever Barry is gonna score, Graeme is going to go and double it` he scored 274!! Pity he got halted by isolation, but like they say- You cant have normal sport in an abnormal society.

kingraf wrote:I have called Kallis the greatest cricketer in history many times on this site. But surely it is unarguable that the greatest batsman in the history of SA is Graeme Pollock? He was a titan. I remember a story about him- The day Barry Richards scored 140 vs Aus, one of the Chappel brothers remarked- `We in trouble mate, because whatever Barry is gonna score, Graeme is going to go and double it` he scored 274!! Pity he got halted by isolation, but like they say- You cant have normal sport in an abnormal society.

Also another story apparently about the last ever innings Graeme Pollock played against another country. During the 1987 rebel test match V Australia when Graeme made 144, Graeme made a lot of these runs by boundaries and only took singles in order so that he could keep the strike! An amazing batsman to watch when in full flow and has the same graceful off-side game as what David Gower had as a batsman in 1985 V Australia.

gboycottnut wrote:

Biltong wrote:Gboycottnut, unfortunately that is the situation with SA cricketers of that era, nothing we ca do about it.


It is what it is.

How good do you think then that guys like Jimmy Cook, Clive Rice, Peter Kirsten and Ken McEwan could have done if they were allowed to play for SA in the 80's against these following bowling attacks:-

1) West Indies formidable and fearsome 1984 pace quartet V Australia of Marshall, Garner, Holding, Daniel.
2) England's 1985 Trent Bridge attack of Botham, Allott, Sidebottom, Emburey, Edmonds.
3) Pakistan's 1987 tour of England bowling unit of Imran, Wasim, Mohsin Kamal, Abdul Qadir, Mudassar Nazir.
4) New Zealand's 1986 tour of England bowling unit of Hadlee, Chatfield, Coney, Bracewell,Gray.
5) Australia's mighty 1985 Edgbaston test bowling unit of McDermott, Lawson, Thomson, O'Donnell, Holland.

Has anyone mentioned Dudley Nourse?
2900 runs at an average of 53.8, despite losing, possibly, the best years of his career to WWII. Once batted for 9 hours with a broken thumb to score 208 against England.

kingraf wrote:I have called Kallis the greatest cricketer in history many times on this site. But surely it is unarguable that the greatest batsman in the history of SA is Graeme Pollock? He was a titan. I remember a story about him- The day Barry Richards scored 140 vs Aus, one of the Chappel brothers remarked- `We in trouble mate, because whatever Barry is gonna score, Graeme is going to go and double it` he scored 274!! Pity he got halted by isolation, but like they say- You cant have normal sport in an abnormal society.

Kingraf
There was some good discussion on the Hall of Fame thread regarding both Pollock (who definitely achieved enough at international level to qualify for our HoF with no reservations) and on Richards, who also made it in based on a combination of what he did in first class cricket and his largely unfulfilled potential as a Test batsman. I think most of us here, even in the absence of having seen much 'in the flesh' of either (particularly Pollock, as Richards played quite a lot of County cricket) would rate both ahead of Kallis as pure batsmen (accepting Kallis is perhaps the second best batting all-rounder ever, and not far short of Sobers).

I think the ultimate conclusion is easy - the best SA top 5 would be:
Richards
Smith
Amla
Pollock
Kallis.

Good case for Bland at #6 - near 50 batting average over a career that only just fell outside Biltong's 2000 run criterion and the outstanding fielder of his era.

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Has anyone mentioned Dudley Nourse?
2900 runs at an average of 53.8, despite losing, possibly, the best years of his career to WWII. Once batted for 9 hours with a broken thumb to score 208 against England.

Quite right, I forgot Dudley's Nourse name although I did remember some SA player having to play a truely brave and gutsy innings through pain after spending the night in a hospital for treatment, and now I have that name Dudley Nourse. His parent Clive? wasn't to bad a player either.

2 under achievers - Cullinan and Hudson. Could probably but Rudolph in that category as well.

dummy_half wrote:

kingraf wrote:I have called Kallis the greatest cricketer in history many times on this site. But surely it is unarguable that the greatest batsman in the history of SA is Graeme Pollock? He was a titan. I remember a story about him- The day Barry Richards scored 140 vs Aus, one of the Chappel brothers remarked- `We in trouble mate, because whatever Barry is gonna score, Graeme is going to go and double it` he scored 274!! Pity he got halted by isolation, but like they say- You cant have normal sport in an abnormal society.

Kingraf
There was some good discussion on the Hall of Fame thread regarding both Pollock (who definitely achieved enough at international level to qualify for our HoF with no reservations) and on Richards, who also made it in based on a combination of what he did in first class cricket and his largely unfulfilled potential as a Test batsman. I think most of us here, even in the absence of having seen much 'in the flesh' of either (particularly Pollock, as Richards played quite a lot of County cricket) would rate both ahead of Kallis as pure batsmen (accepting Kallis is perhaps the second best batting all-rounder ever, and not far short of Sobers).

I think the ultimate conclusion is easy - the best SA top 5 would be:
Richards
Smith
Amla
Pollock
Kallis.

Good case for Bland at #6 - near 50 batting average over a career that only just fell outside Biltong's 2000 run criterion and the outstanding fielder of his era.

I would have Kallis at 3, Pollock at 4, Bland at 5 and Aubrey Faulkner at 6. Not sure if Graeme Smith can be considered a great SA batsman. Great captain yes, but great batsman, well not to sure about that.

gboycottnut wrote:

Biltong wrote:Gboycottnut, unfortunately that is the situation with SA cricketers of that era, nothing we ca do about it.


It is what it is.

How good do you think then that guys like Jimmy Cook, Clive Rice, Peter Kirsten and Ken McEwan could have done if they were allowed to play for SA in the 80's against these following bowling attacks:-

1) West Indies formidable and fearsome 1984 pace quartet V Australia of Marshall, Garner, Holding, Daniel.
2) England's 1985 Trent Bridge attack of Botham, Allott, Sidebottom, Emburey, Edmonds.
3) Pakistan's 1987 tour of England bowling unit of Imran, Wasim, Mohsin Kamal, Abdul Qadir, Mudassar Nazir.
4) New Zealand's 1986 tour of England bowling unit of Hadlee, Chatfield, Coney, Bracewell,Gray.
5) Australia's mighty 1985 Edgbaston test bowling unit of McDermott, Lawson, Thomson, O'Donnell, Holland.

Would have given anything to see Kevin McKenzie playing against the WIndies pace quartet - never used a helmet & had no fears hooking the ball off his face.

seanmichaels wrote:2 under achievers - Cullinan and Hudson. Could probably but Rudolph in that category as well.

Hudson didn't play much for SA as he had a technical deficiency whereby his right leg would drift too much towards the legside meaning that he got out bowled or caught behind easily. Cullinan is an interesting case, as in terms of talent he could have been another Richards or a Pollock but mentally he was weak particularly in playing against a certain Australian leg spinner by the name of S. Warne.

Galted wrote:

gboycottnut wrote:

Biltong wrote:Gboycottnut, unfortunately that is the situation with SA cricketers of that era, nothing we ca do about it.


It is what it is.

How good do you think then that guys like Jimmy Cook, Clive Rice, Peter Kirsten and Ken McEwan could have done if they were allowed to play for SA in the 80's against these following bowling attacks:-

1) West Indies formidable and fearsome 1984 pace quartet V Australia of Marshall, Garner, Holding, Daniel.
2) England's 1985 Trent Bridge attack of Botham, Allott, Sidebottom, Emburey, Edmonds.
3) Pakistan's 1987 tour of England bowling unit of Imran, Wasim, Mohsin Kamal, Abdul Qadir, Mudassar Nazir.
4) New Zealand's 1986 tour of England bowling unit of Hadlee, Chatfield, Coney, Bracewell,Gray.
5) Australia's mighty 1985 Edgbaston test bowling unit of McDermott, Lawson, Thomson, O'Donnell, Holland.

Would have given anything to see Kevin McKenzie playing against the WIndies pace quartet - never used a helmet & had no fears hooking the ball off his face.

Have you seen video footage of Kevin McKenzie batting? There is such video footage of him on youtube taken from the 1986 Australia rebel tour! Also another batsman in that isolation era of the 1980's that could have gone on to become a great SA player is Henry Fotheringham. With a solid and dependable opening pair of Cook and Fotheringham, these 2 were as good as any other opening batting pair in world cricket at that time, such as Gooch and Robinson for England, Wood and Hilditch for Australia, Wright and Edgar for the All Blacks, Gavaskar and Srikkanth for India, Shoaib Mohammed and Mudassar Nazir for Pak.

Interesting- Biltong you seem to give Petersen a greater chance of making the Great list than ABDV. and I cant believe no one has written a four paragraph 2000 Word essay on the waste of talent that defined HH Gibbs, you cant be a fan of SA cricket if you cant do that in about two minutes

kingraf wrote:Interesting- Biltong you seem to give Petersen a greater chance of making the Great list than ABDV. and I cant believe no one has written a four paragraph 2000 Word essay on the waste of talent that defined HH Gibbs, you cant be a fan of SA cricket if you cant do that in about two minutes

Gibbs definitely had the talent to be SA's version of a Lara or a Tendulkar. What let him down was his lack of temperament and patience to play a disciplined innings which his contemporary great players had in abundance.

gboycottnut wrote:

Have you seen video footage of Kevin McKenzie batting? There is such video footage of him on youtube taken from the 1986 Australia rebel tour! Also another batsman in that isolation era of the 1980's that could have gone on to become a great SA player is Henry Fotheringham. With a solid and dependable opening pair of Cook and Fotheringham, these 2 were as good as any other opening batting pair in world cricket at that time, such as Gooch and Robinson for England, Wood and Hilditch for Australia, Wright and Edgar for the All Blacks, Gavaskar and Srikkanth for India, Shoaib Mohammed and Mudassar Nazir for Pak.

Was lucky enough to go to the Wanderers often as a kid, saw a lot of Transvaal & some of the West Indies rebel tour internationals.
The Tvl lineup at one stage consisted of Cook, Fothers, Kallicharan, Pollock, Rice, McKenzie, Kourie, Jennings & then any variation of Sylvester Clarke, Neal Radford, Rupert Hanley, Hugh Page, Cyril Mitchley & possibly one or two others I forget. Happy times - remember one season when they won 23/24 matches, the odd one out being curtailed due to rain.

Not even 200 words Biltong!! In all seriousness, I wonder if truly he was THAT good in any case- Yes the scored 175 he scored was the best live innings I saw ODI , and his 228 was the best test innings I saw I live. But a bit like Richard Gasquet & Gazza, I sometimes wonder if they werent closer to their zenith than people think. We all like the idea of rogue/wasteful talent. Thats why people despite all evidence convince themselves that Lennon was the greatest Beatle

kingraf wrote:Interesting- Biltong you seem to give Petersen a greater chance of making the Great list than ABDV. and I cant believe no one has written a four paragraph 2000 Word essay on the waste of talent that defined HH Gibbs, you cant be a fan of SA cricket if you cant do that in about two minutes

Mate, AB is already on the list.

Alviro still has to get on it.

I didn't discuss those on the top list individually as they are already there and I leave it open for debate as who will be where, I give a description of those on the bottom list, just for info sake, so you guys can make your mind up as to who you believe can make the list.

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Has anyone mentioned Dudley Nourse?
2900 runs at an average of 53.8, despite losing, possibly, the best years of his career to WWII. Once batted for 9 hours with a broken thumb to score 208 against England.

Hoogy bear, thanks for that, I missed him completely, must have deleted him by accident on my excell spreadsheet.

kingraf wrote:Not even 200 words Biltong!! In all seriousness, I wonder if truly he was THAT good in any case- Yes the scored 175 he scored was the best live innings I saw ODI , and his 228 was the best test innings I saw I live. But a bit like Richard Gasquet & Gazza, I sometimes wonder if they werent closer to their zenith than people think. We all like the idea of rogue/wasteful talent. Thats why people despite all evidence convince themselves that Lennon was the greatest Beatle

you're welcome to write an essay on him mate.

Barry Richards and Graeme Pollock for me. Both would make my greatest of all-time side for first class cricket, such a shame they played so few tests.

Due to a lack of cricket on terrestrial TV whilst I was growing up I watched a hell of a lot of VT's of county and test cricket highlights well before my time that my granddad and dad have. From those Barry Richards became one of my cricketing heroes mainly down to how enjoyable he was to watch bat!

Never saw Pollock live, and precious little on grainy black and white newsreel.

But I saw a lot of Barry Richards: Barry Richards simply had more time to play the ball than any sportsman I've seen in almost sixty years. Doesn't necessarily make him the best, I know. He was also a brilliant slip fielder which also speaks to how quickly he saw the ball.

Brilliant sportsman.

While playing county cricket helpped Barry Richards getting a rather romanticised image like some of the other good players from that era, I think Graeme Pollock did more than that. I haven't seen either of them play. The horrible and obnoxious policies adopted by the government and cricket authorities ment Pollock never played against the West Indies or the spin heavy India or Pakistan. Richard's' exposure to the West Indian quicks and some decent spinners were very much limited to county cricket. Admitedly, county cricket was played at a much higher standards than is the case at present, but county runs are not as the same as test runs, the quality of the game and the kind of pressure are very fdifferent.
But Pollock, in the limited opportunities he got, had set the cricket world alight and is definitely among the very top range of SA batting.
Barry Richards too has to be in there, although I don't really buy this highly romanticised portrayal.
After South Africa joined the civilized world, Garry Kirsten carried their batting for a fair while befoe Kallis begann to take increased responsibilities. Kirsten's batting is not for the romantic school, but he was mighty effective. Graeme Smith is also some from the same league, if anything, more beefy and a bit more effective.
No need to talk up Kallis much, is one of the best in the world.
Among the present players, AB de Villiers is someone I believe could go a fair few way and I believe we haven't seen his best as yet. Hashim Amla could also leave his mark on world cricket for generations to come.

msp,
I'm not talking about a "romantic" image of Barry Richards, I'm talking about watching him bat live about 15 times at least, and dozens of times on TV.

As I say, my memories of him don't necessarily make him the best, but the point about seeing the ball early and having extra time to play the shot is unique in my experience; perhaps Gretzky with his eyes in the back of his head, and Couples' effortless grace are the only things that come close to moi.

Just to also mention that Barry Richards was highly successful in World Series Cricket against many of the best international bowlers of his era.

More me Barry Richards was ever so slightly better than Graeme Pollock. Both would scored 1000s of Test runs given the chance.

Gerry SA wrote:More me Barry Richards was ever so slightly better than Graeme Pollock. Both would scored 1000s of Test runs given the chance.

Maybe in terms of technique Barry Richards was better than Graeme Pollock, however in terms of the sheer appetite and hunger for runs, Graeme Pollock was easily ahead of Barry Richards in this area. Comparing these 2 is a bit like comparing Don Bradman and his countryman and teammate Archie Jackson, who if it wasn't for a serious illness which eventually claimed his life could have gone on to become one of Australia's best ever batsman.