Nearing the end of the season

As the season begins to meander to a close, what is the state of rugby in the Magners League? Are the Irish provinces really as dominant as the table suggests? Have the Italian sides made a good impression? Are the Welsh sides in a temporary trough or is it the start of a longer term slide? Can the Scottish sides become more competitive again?

Here's my take on these questions.

The Irish sides are the dominant forces at the moment. If you look at the Heineken Cup, Leinster are in the semis, Ulster made the quarters and Munster failed to get out of their group (just) for the first time in years. In comparison the quarter finals didn't feature any other teams from the league, although both Blues and Ospreys weren't too far from qualifying. This advantage is unlikely to last long, but is probably due to the success in bringing youngsters though the ranks. Connacht also deserve a mention for their improvement this season.

I have been very impressed with the Italians and I think that they have been a good addition. Aironi may have struggled a bit, but have been competitive at home and will improve. Treviso have a good chance of finishing ahead of Glasgow, which would definitely have been a good season for them.

It has been slightly disappointing for the Welsh sides, who seem not to be winning the crunch matches this year. Ospreys especially seem to have lost their way. Perhaps the personnel changes over the summer will invigorate them. With the young players in Wales at the moment, it's hard to imagine the teams won't improve in the coming years.

The Scottish situation is rather worrying. There seems to be a lack of coordination and organisation in the union. For the sake of the competition, hopefully they get their act together soon. If not, they will be propping up the table. They may be a little short of outstanding talent, but the teams are still decent.

Overall it has been a good season so far. Let's hope the play-offs are even better.

Your right about the scottish as glasgow went from play off semi finalists last year, to losing to treviso this year. There have been injuries and possibly the loss of dan parks hit them a bit, but that is no excuse for their serious lack of form this season. Its the same for Edinburgh, and that may be down to the change in personel they have experinced recentely.

As for the welsh I think your right about the young players, but certainly the likes of the ospreys have missed their chance for some silverwear with the amount of players that are leaving at the end of the season.

Certainly the irish have had a great season, except for munster which by their lofty standards has been rather atrocious. They also have a very old squad which may well count against them next season.

ITALIAN

Personally i have been impressed witht he Italian sides in the tournament this season. Treviso have shown that they real did deserve to be in the league with some good home wins, and some impressive away losses (battling til the end). And Aironi, even though they haven't done too well, have shown glimpses of what the future holds, and IMO will be a decent team in another season or two when they have had time to gel.


IRISH

Munster and Leinster have been pretty dominant IMO, however neither team feels unbeatable, if that makes any sense. Ulster, for me, appear to have taken their chances and riden their luck well and found themselves in a good position for it, however i would not class them as a force to be reckoned with. And Connacht shown some real improvement this season, and maybe will find themselves in the HC next year if Leinster or Munster can do a job in europe.

SCOTTISH
Not wanting to sound disrespectful, but something has gone wrong with the Scottish sides, and i am not really sure what it is.

WELSH
I would not really say that the Welsh regions are in a rough patch at the moment. With only 1 (or in the Blues and Dragons 2) matches left to go there is still a chance for two regions to reach the play offs, with three of them having mathematical chances of ending in the top four.

SCOTTISH
Not wanting to sound disrespectful, but something has gone wrong with the Scottish sides, and i am not really sure what it is.

Injuries and poor management is my guesss.

MrScotland, I was thinking about Cussiter (and others) being injured as an excuse, however at the same time there have been some real 'finds' this season with the likes of Grey, Jackson, Weir etc. So i didn't think it was fair to blame injuries.

Certainly the Scots have lost too many good players, especially English sides, but they are better than they showed this year.

I think it is probably fair to say that the Ospreys have many good to outstanding players, but aren't good as a team. Any team that has Hook, Bowe, Williams, Byrne, etc is going to be dangerous, but they don't seem to play as a team. At the weekend they were beaten at home by a Munster side in cruise control who had nothing to play for. A team as strong as the Ospreys should not have let that happen.

I think that people are overstating Munster's problems. They are out of sight at the top of the league, and although they didn't get out of the group stages in the Heineken, it was bound to happen eventually. As to the old squad argument, I don't really buy it. Yes they have their grizzled veterans, but no team is composed purely of under 25s. Last weekend Felix Jones at full back and Conor Murray at scrum half had good games, and there was plenty of youth in the side with Nagle at second row and Earls on the wing. There's the likes of Zebo, Archer, Barnes waiting in the wings. Yes they are in transition, but they'll come right when their young guns have settled into the first team.

I also meant selling parks which has been bad for both parties and the poor management of the clubs

Parks hasn't been playing that well this season, so I don't think he'd have helped too much if he'd stayed.

I dont know because he did have an outstanding six nations last year, but could have possibly stiffled the development of both weir and jackson.

Hi guys!

The Irish have been the leading country in the Magners for some time, only the Ospreys and once the Scarlets have broken their stranglehold, but both Leinster and munster are beginning to age. That said I do expect them to remain competitive for a few years yet. Ulster are buying their way in with Saffa's and good luck to them, it will work better than it did for either the O's or Blues because the core of their team is Ulster. Connacht could really do with getting their fair share of IRFU money, longer contracts and better imports and the crowds would roll up, so it would be sustainable.

The Scots have been poor beyond belief. Last season glasgow fought for the right to be in the final, showing Edinburgh the way. Maybe that's upset those in Murrayfield who clearly see the capitol city as the main attraction. With only two teams they need to put all their resources into both teams, keep their best players in Scotland and build for the near future while securing the longer term.

Italians have performed well and really could have taken a few extra scalps than they have, next year it will be different, Aironi have fired the first salvo and it was aimed at Munster. Next season few teams will cherish the thought of going there for an easy ride.

Wales in Henson show exactly why we are where we are. I've said it before but it's worth repeating, the Welsh players, in general, do believe the hype that surrounds them and think that they are better than they are. Performances on the field and off justify that statement. A sense of realism needs to descend on Welsh rugby, much like it does Scotland, or both country's will not only find the plane ride home starting earlier than they wanted, but that the Irish will continue to dominate the magners for several more yaers.

Schrodinger's cat this is one up to you, 606v2 got in first and the Beeb will be gone before it almost has a chance.

Cheers ospreylian, I find myself looking at 606 less and less now that I have started posting here.

I totally agree with you about Connacht. They will be losing their best players to the stronger provinces again next season, so it's a completely uneven playing field.

I have to say that there have been a few Welsh players in the last few years, especially Henson who have really put me off Welsh rugby because of their attitude. It would be nice to see the famous Welsh flair without the infamous posing that has appeared over the last decade.

There would be nothing better for the competition than to have all teams being competitive. It would do wonders for the international teams as well. Imagine how good the Six Nations would if all of the nations were capable of winning it or even a slam.

I think the 6 nations would be better if all were competative to win, but maybe not the Slam. The Slam is something only a truly special team should be able to achieve, and for me personally I think it's been devalued a bit over the last 7/8 years.

Having a truly competative Magners would be the stepping stones for 4 out of the 6 sides though!

I think in the next couple of years we're going to see huge improvements for Italy, even this season we've seen the benefits of having Aironi and Treviso in the Magners.

The Irish are always going to be competative - they have brilliant structures in place and seem to have bags of talent coming through, in the Magners they are always going to be near the top of the table.

The Welsh - I honestly don't think we're that far off. Take the Scarlets for example, we lost to Munster by 1 point away, drew with leinster at home and everyone knows how close the two games against Ulster were! Welsh sides are close to being truly competative. Certain things need to be changed or improved to help push our Welsh regions on but I can see positive signs that we're getting there. I think that by addressing the problems with the Welsh permiership we will see improvements at regional level.

The Scottish - I confess I am quite worried about both Edinburgh and Glasgow. I know that both have been badly hit by injuries and players having left this season, but what worries me is that more players are leaving. The SRU really needs to look at how to keep some of those good players playing up in Scotland. SOmething needs to be done marketing wise to attract bigger crowds. Scotland have got the talent up there, there just needs to be a better system in place to develop it I feel!

I think we (Ulster) have taken the first steps towards being a Top Four side year in year out. I'm delighted with our progress and I think the most important thing is that next year those 1-2 point wins become 8-10 point wins. We've underperformed for long periods of the season, but have been getting the wins. The next step is to start realising that potential. The players are there, the mentality is there; there will be setbacks and we won;t reach the level of a Munster or Leinster overnight but I think we are talking the first steps towards reaching that level. We were given a lesson in the Quarter-Final in the level your forwards need to be at to win titles. We're still short but we're building in the right way.

Munster and Leinster are different class to the other 10 sides in the league. No-one even comes close to them I'm afraid.

The Welsh sides have been very disappointing. They have two teams capable of competing in Europe but I think they are both poorly run and very poorly coached. I also think there is a mental block in Welsh Rugby about utilising the pack properly. They use the backs too much and the result is that the Ospreys and Blues simply go from side to side. You need an outhalf with real attacking ability to make this work, and with Biggar and Parks it's the wrong gameplan. If your 10 sits back in the pocket like those two like too then you're backline is on the back foot. They're not suited to it. What do they need to do? Kick the corners and get the maul moving. They have great packs that they don't use and until they do they won't take the next step to winning Heineken Cups. They won't get where they want to be. I honestly believe with a new coach and a more forwards-orientated gameplan the Ospreys could be ML winners and HC semi-finalists next year. But I know they won't!

Scarlets have come on a lot, but they've run out of gas in the second half of the season. Can they be contenders next year? Maybe in the ML but not the HC. I like what they're trying to do; they're trying to play a game that their fans want to see and bring through young players. I'm not sure that they have the cuteness you need to win titles. To play the referee, the conditions. They suffer against the bigger packs and they don't seem to have the players coming through to remedy that. And again if they're not going forward they become very predictable and lateral.

The Scottish sides have been a complete disaster. I think they are so poorly run; the SRU have made no priority of keeping Scottish players in Scotland. They prefer to blame the players and coaches when not giving them the platform they need to compete. They don't market the teams well, they don't realise that if they don't get behind their pro-sides and letting players leave for England and France- they will kill the game in Scotland. Why do people want to go to see teams who are letting their best players leave? They will be perennial losers in the ML, HC and 6N. They are going down a dark road.

The Italians are a very positive story. They are making such good progress I can just see them rising up the table. The biggest issue they have is discipline. Knowing when to stick a sly hand in the ruck or steal an extra few yards past the offside line is a vital part of the game. But only if you get away with it; the Italians do the stupidest things. Awful indiscipline which loses them games. Despite this I can only see improvements ahead for them next year.

Good summary Notch. One concern I would have with Ulster is that there are a few too many key positions being filled by foreign players. That leaves you vulnerable if they decide to move on and potentially can stunt the development of the younger players if they don't get game time. Plenty of teams have this in a couple of positions, but Ulster are a bit too reliant on these players.

If things keep going the way they are, the Italian sides could be ahead of the Scottish ones in the not too distant future.

Yes, they will decide to move on but we can replace them. It's a very good point; overseas players don't spend their entire careers at a club. They will go home or to another side eventually. This is a weakness of having too many overseas players that you are quite right to point out.

One thing is true though, we've strengthened in positions where we don't really have young players or good squad players. Our academy is strong in the front row, outhalf, centres and wings. We are weak at lock, backrow, fullback and scrumhalf. Hence the signings of Muller, Wannenburg and Pienaar make a lot of sense because there simply aren't the players in that position to make a contribution.

It's about the right blend between homegrown players and overseas players and I think we have that. When the Ireland players are away, we have no homegrown players aged 30 or over. Paddy Wallace is the oldest player in the squad aged 31; we have a lot of young players.There is a serious deficit of experience and leadership and that's why experienced NIQ players have been brought in.

You are right that Ulster bought players in the correct positions, but even if they stay until they retire the back-up isn't nearly as good. Squad depth is very important if you want to be competitive in both the Magners League and the Heineken Cup. I don't think Ulster will be competitive in the latter stages of the Heineken Cup for a couple of years, when the players will have more experience and hopefully some new players will have emerged in those weak positions.

I believe the trick is to have a team that is made up of new young guns, a crop of current internationals and a few older heads. For it to be right there needs to be a ratio of something like 12:10:6 = 28.
As the Ospreys have shown ( and others) having a mainly international squad can work against you, having too many young guns a la Scarlets can do the same.
In Wales the Dragons probably have the better ethos but lack real quality in too many positions and a general weakness amongst the backups.
Munster and Leinster in the Magners have it right, Tigers in the AP do too.

Yes, it will take time for us to develop the depth we need that's for sure. We still have a small squad. We've seen the drawback of that at the end of this season. Ultimately that's going to happen by giving more players exposure to this level of rugby. The RWC is going to be an important time for us as we will be bringing through quite a number of the younger players who have made their debuts this season.

Like I said, it will take us a long time to catch up to Munster and Leinster. The next few seasons are going to be an exciting ride

Balance is definitely important, but is there really a correct formula? At what stage does a player go from being a young gun to a current international (other than winning their first cap - I mean in terms of experience)? I think the problem you can get is that once that ratio is established, if you wait until your 6 old heads retire, then you have too few places to give the the new young guns. I think the key is to try to stagger the players coming into the team for the first time to avoid having to have re-building phases.

What is the state of rugby in the Magners league?

I'd say OK with a fair bit of work to do. We certainly need to see the best players playing week in week out. As Kingsley said on ScrumV the other day, what the SH has is continuity. It's been better this year and I've enjoyed the season, but we could do with a better designed season - not a magners issue per se.

In terms of the teams:

Scarlets. Slightly disappointed. Narrow losses prevented us consolidating a top 4 finish. Games vs Connacht, Ulster, Treviso, Munster & Leinster in particular cost us dearly. I do expect better next season from a team that is definitely on the up

Munster. Outstanding league season, blooding youngsters but a team in transition in Europe

Leinster. Consistent and settled team good show in Europe

Ulster. Starting to show potential, once a very strong side and showing signs of returning to that status.

Blues. Solid season from a team I expected to struggle. Starting to see young blood come through but who will fill the 10 berth next season? With a few quality signings could be dark horses for the title next season (could yet manage this season but must be outsiders with Munster & Leinster in the mix)

Ospreys. Fundamentally disappointing. So much talent, just didn't click. I really hope that the management have a vision to take this sleeping giant forwards because despite the exodus at the liberty there is a wealth of talent available there.

Dragons. Slow start, strong finish. Strong 1st XV but injuries have impacted. Great find in coach Darren Edwards and good development of young talent - can kick on next season and will be a handful for everyone.

Conacht. Growing and growing all the time. Tough team out in Galaway but poor on the road. If they can pick up some away points they could be a dangerous side

Edinburgh & Glasgow. Much of a muchness. Both pretty weak. Capable of the odd win, but the Scots must be very disappointed with the season. Will they improve? Outlook is poor.

Treviso. Shown enough to merit their inclusion and tough at home. I hope they benefit from the experience and come back stronger next season. What are the odds of more than two nations represented in next years play-offs?

Aironi. Some good players but disappointed they didn't pick up more wins, at least at home. Tough ask to build a team from scratch. I don't expect them to be so poor next year.

Overall, an enjoyable season, marred by some poor reffing. Irish strong and moving forward. Welsh - need better coaches but some progress. Scots - going backwards. Italians, a decent start.

anyone going to come a chat about the dragons v blues game?