Tigers vs Toulouse

So, who's going to win?

Winner takes all game, should be a great game. My only worry is that we're due a fair amount of snow Friday/Saturday and as you may of noticed, it's a bit nippy outside. Hopefully the game won't be called off.

On a side note, does anyone know if 2nd place in this group are likely to get through as one of the best runners up?

EDIT: How rude of me, i forgot to add my own prediction! I'm going for the Tigers by 7.

Tigers can cover the pitch and hopefully western Civilisation will carry on despite a couple of inches of Snow. It could prove too much for the Railways mind

Tigers to win by 10 with no BP.

tigerleghorn wrote:Tigers can cover the pitch and hopefully western Civilisation will carry on despite a couple of inches of Snow. It could prove too much for the Railways mind

It's not just the pitch though. It's making the rest of the ground safe etc. The ground staff are pretty good though, I remember last year the tigers ground was the only one able to stage a match as everywhere else was frozen.

Welford Rd is well equiped. I remember the game vs Perpignan going ahead when the temperature was about -6. There were covers on the pitch even during the warm up.

nathan wrote:..................I remember last year the tigers ground was the only one able to stage a match as everywhere else was frozen.

I suppose you are including Stade de France as well? That was pretty shocking.

If Tigers get out the blocks early and get some points on the board then Toulouse have shown over the last season or two that they're pretty fragile. If Toulouse score first then it'll be a whole lot harder.

Still Glos beat them at home and Quins won away in Toulouse last season so no pressure right?

It's a bit of a pain having this as the final game, as Toulouse haven't travelled well so far. However, with so much at stake I'm thinking that they are going to be more than up for this game. I'm finding it difficult to pick a winner but by a small margin I think Tigers will pinch it.

I'm not sure about whoever scores first winning, as the weather conditions are likely to be unpleasant. Ball handling will be difficult so I expect the team that conceeds to recover before the opposition have run away with the game.

I've gone for Tigers. I just think they'll beat Toulouse, despite not being quite as good a team.

If Tigers do lose, I wont worry too much. I don't think Tigers have the team to win the competition anyway, so going out may be a blessing in disguise, the team could then concentrate on the league.

You have to remember most Tigers fans are country folk with multiple range rovers and warm hunting jackets. They are hardy folk in the winter, as are the local home grown players like err Manu Tuillagi. The soft French southerners wont cope with the snow any better than they did against when trying to play Ireland last year. Infact I predict they will forfeit the game.

If they turn up and play however I fully expect Tigers to lose. Lets face it theyve been rank awful the last couple of games and have a pitiful record in euro qualification over the last few years. Although not as bad as the team that started last season that one had kicked into gear by this point and looked a lot stronger than the current limp lettuce does.
I dont have great hopes for this season. Jeff playoffs should be a given, but they might even miss the final (yes I said it!).

If they dont win this, or at least go down in a blaze of glory with a strong showing then Cockerills position should start to be questioned. Enough excuses, start winning.


Bookies have Tigers as narrow favourites, they got it spot on with scratch odds for the Os game.

Hey Nathan. Do you mind changing the title to reflect that Tigers are that home? Done mate.

I expect Tigers to win. Quietly been going about their business in the AP and HC nicely whilst Quins and Sarries have taken the headlines for the English clubs.

Tigers are still alive and kicking - very dangerous.

With losses to Quins,Gloucester and Edinburgh last season in the HC and Ospreys this season Toulouse have shown they are beatable in European competitions.

Tigers at home are a tough prospect and I think they'll have edge a tight win there.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:You have to remember most Tigers fans are country folk with multiple range rovers and warm hunting jackets. They are hardy folk in the winter, as are the local home grown players like err Manu Tuillagi. The soft French southerners wont cope with the snow any better than they did against when trying to play Ireland last year. Infact I predict they will forfeit the game.

If they turn up and play however I fully expect Tigers to lose. Lets face it theyve been rank awful the last couple of games and have a pitiful record in euro qualification over the last few years. Although not as bad as the team that started last season that one had kicked into gear by this point and looked a lot stronger than the current limp lettuce does.
I dont have great hopes for this season. Jeff playoffs should be a given, but they might even miss the final (yes I said it!).

If they dont win this, or at least go down in a blaze of glory with a strong showing then Cockerills position should start to be questioned. Enough excuses, start winning.

Bookies have Tigers as narrow favourites, they got it spot on with scratch odds for the Os game.

I disagree, you're measureing Cockerill's record against expectation based on a glorious past that didn't have to worry about a salary cap or the inevitable improvement of 'lesser' teams in the professional era. Lets face it, most of the teams in the AP, and an awful lot in Europe would be envious of Tigers' current squad and achievements. Just because they havent won every trophy going, it doesn't make Cockerill a bad coach.

I'd go with Leicester : McAlister got a concussion and has to rest for 48h. if he's anything but 100% fit, Toulouse will loose. let's face it, their backline has been average so far and they had to rely on their pack to get most of their wins. The tigers will eat cassoulet this weekend!

Whocares you say they have to rely on their pack.. Isn't the pack the foundation that leads to a win surely?

It's the pack who generally generate the penalties which the fly half can then try and slot over.

beshocked wrote:Whocares you say they have to rely on their pack.. Isn't the pack the foundation that leads to a win surely?

It's the pack who generally generate the penalties which the fly half can then try and slot over.

Surely the pack helps the backs to create something (I probably should have added the word only). In Toulouse case and I believe its the case for most great teams around europe, the back play is/was as important as the forward basics (line out, scrum etc).
Currently they do so many unforced errors when they try go through more than 3 phases that they eventually rely on penalties or wait for some mistakes from the opponents to get a runaway try.

Jimpy wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:You have to remember most Tigers fans are country folk with multiple range rovers and warm hunting jackets. They are hardy folk in the winter, as are the local home grown players like err Manu Tuillagi. The soft French southerners wont cope with the snow any better than they did against when trying to play Ireland last year. Infact I predict they will forfeit the game.

If they turn up and play however I fully expect Tigers to lose. Lets face it theyve been rank awful the last couple of games and have a pitiful record in euro qualification over the last few years. Although not as bad as the team that started last season that one had kicked into gear by this point and looked a lot stronger than the current limp lettuce does.
I dont have great hopes for this season. Jeff playoffs should be a given, but they might even miss the final (yes I said it!).

If they dont win this, or at least go down in a blaze of glory with a strong showing then Cockerills position should start to be questioned. Enough excuses, start winning.

Bookies have Tigers as narrow favourites, they got it spot on with scratch odds for the Os game.

I disagree, you're measureing Cockerill's record against expectation based on a glorious past that didn't have to worry about a salary cap or the inevitable improvement of 'lesser' teams in the professional era. Lets face it, most of the teams in the AP, and an awful lot in Europe would be envious of Tigers' current squad and achievements. Just because they havent won every trophy going, it doesn't make Cockerill a bad coach.

But being short ion ideas and having a side that is at best stagnant and unable to make an impact in Europe year after year does make it legitimate to question his credentials. The sidehe inherited from meyer won back to back Jeffs and had already made the knock stages of the HC. The last three years theyve not even made the Amlin drop ins, and if they dont win this game its more a failure to progress again..and easily the worst run theyve had in the history of the competition. Its a significant step back.
The club hasnt been hit by internal problems, financial woes or the sudden loss of a golden generation of players during this period..but he has had the advantages of the Tigers facilities, the academy, and a club name that attracts loyalty from players not seen elsewhere (JJ) . Cockerills always had plenty of excuses for every set back, but at some point he does have to show hes capable of putting together a side thats capable of winning more than the LV cup and has the imagination as a coach and manager to deliver a brand of rugby that is more effective in Europe. Of course lifting the HC is a lot to expect, but being competitive and making the quarters at least every 4 years is hardly an unreasonable expectation from one of the biggest clubs in Europe.

His appointment was controversial when it was made, and theres still a number of powerful figures within the club that have their doubts about him and the direction hes taken things. His position will be under pressure.

Course if he wins this game then all is forgiven and hes a great coach again.

whocares wrote:

beshocked wrote:Whocares you say they have to rely on their pack.. Isn't the pack the foundation that leads to a win surely?

It's the pack who generally generate the penalties which the fly half can then try and slot over.

Surely the pack helps the backs to create something (I probably should have added the word only). In Toulouse case and I believe its the case for most great teams around europe, the back play is/was as important as the forward basics (line out, scrum etc).
Currently they do so many unforced errors when they try go through more than 3 phases that they eventually rely on penalties or wait for some mistakes from the opponents to get a runaway try.

Oh right - the backs make too many errors. Surely then Toulouse should just simplify things then? It's generally doing the basics well which wins game. Sure flash stuff looks good but it's generally consistency which wins matches.

Basics like kicking from hand well are underrated by most sides. A good kick chase puts pressure.

Sounds like Toulouse need to use their players better to be honest. How can Toulouse's backs be average with the players they have?

whocares wrote:

beshocked wrote:Whocares you say they have to rely on their pack.. Isn't the pack the foundation that leads to a win surely?

It's the pack who generally generate the penalties which the fly half can then try and slot over.

Surely the pack helps the backs to create something (I probably should have added the word only). In Toulouse case and I believe its the case for most great teams around europe, the back play is/was as important as the forward basics (line out, scrum etc).
Currently they do so many unforced errors when they try go through more than 3 phases that they eventually rely on penalties or wait for some mistakes from the opponents to get a runaway try.

Its fair to say that Tigers pack creates a lot more chances than the backs use effectively....and accounts for a pretty high proportion of their tries scored ( espec. adding in the penalty tries it wins). The backs havent done that much this year, party down to problems with the half back pairing. Harrison and Ford have both dissapointed when we hoped they would kick on, and currently Flood is in a slump.
Whilst Mossis has stepped up and Tuillagi has scored a decent number of times we do lack quality across the back and the vintage years Geordan Murphy who could boss games.
Tigers dont do a lot of very flashy stuff in the backs, and rarely threaten striking back from deep. They are not bustling cavaliers like Wasps, but not quite the efficient machine that is Saracens
I dont think its unreasonable to say the best part of the side is its front 5, and that is where their results stem from. Its also noticeable that they have a habit of falling back on that strength.

I do wonder why teams don't simply copy the Harlequins' off-loading game. Leicester would be virtually unbeatable if they could work out how to do it.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

whocares wrote:

beshocked wrote:Whocares you say they have to rely on their pack.. Isn't the pack the foundation that leads to a win surely?

It's the pack who generally generate the penalties which the fly half can then try and slot over.

Surely the pack helps the backs to create something (I probably should have added the word only). In Toulouse case and I believe its the case for most great teams around europe, the back play is/was as important as the forward basics (line out, scrum etc).
Currently they do so many unforced errors when they try go through more than 3 phases that they eventually rely on penalties or wait for some mistakes from the opponents to get a runaway try.

Its fair to say that Tigers pack creates a lot more chances than the backs use effectively....and accounts for a pretty high proportion of their tries scored ( espec. adding in the penalty tries it wins). The backs havent done that much this year, party down to problems with the half back pairing. Harrison and Ford have both dissapointed when we hoped they would kick on, and currently Flood is in a slump.
Whilst Mossis has stepped up and Tuillagi has scored a decent number of times we do lack quality across the back and the vintage years Geordan Murphy who could boss games.
Tigers dont do a lot of very flashy stuff in the backs, and rarely threaten striking back from deep. They are not bustling cavaliers like Wasps, but not quite the efficient machine that is Saracens
I dont think its unreasonable to say the best part of the side is its front 5, and that is where their results stem from. Its also noticeable that they have a habit of falling back on that strength.

Exactly. Most sides stick to their strengths and generally that's what wins the games.

Leicester has a powerhouse front five and really take pride in that area.

Your backs are going through a rebuilding period. Anthony Watson if he comes to you next season would be an excellent addition who would add a bit more X factor to let's be honest a pretty pedestrian back three.

Obviously losing A.Tuilagi and Agulla plus an ageing Murphy has lead to this.

Jimpy wrote:I do wonder why teams don't simply copy the Harlequins' off-loading game. Leicester would be virtually unbeatable if they could work out how to do it.

Saracens have shown time and again how to nullify it/beat it.

Like any gameplan it can be beaten. It is more exciting though admittedly.

Leicester should stick to it's own identity because ultimately it has been very successful with it.

Not according to Peter Seasbiscuit...

Tigers just need to bring in the right players which you are normally very good at.

Bring in Ksevic at 7 to bring a bit more bite at the breakdown.

Anthony Watson into the back three.

Continue the development of Thompstone,Tait and Benjamin.

Perhaps a 12 too.

I must be the only person here who thinks Tait is a liability.

Can't say I have seen enough of Tait to truly say but hasn't he been alright?

I know Tigers have poured a lot of time and effort into him but maybe in time he'll reward the patience.

beshocked wrote:Tigers just need to bring in the right players which you are normally very good at.

Bring in Ksevic at 7 to bring a bit more bite at the breakdown.

Anthony Watson into the back three.

Continue the development of Thompstone,Tait and Benjamin.

Perhaps a 12 too.

Someone like Billy Twelvetrees perhaps?
Dont forget Dan Bowden was supossed to save the universe

beshocked wrote:Can't say I have seen enough of Tait to truly say but hasn't he been alright?

I know Tigers have poured a lot of time and effort into him but maybe in time he'll reward the patience.

Alright in the limited games hes had, but looked out of his depth up against Ospreys (who were only playing one 15 men this time).
I just dont think hes got the presence and all round game to be a top class fullback. Whether he also still has his pace is also still not clear.

But yes Tigers have given him every opportunity to prove himself, and he must be doing something right to get selected for games like the O's.

Liability is unfair, unless we are going to label Ford and Flood as that too.

beshocked wrote: Oh right - the backs make too many errors. Surely then Toulouse should just simplify things then? It's generally doing the basics well which wins game. Sure flash stuff looks good but it's generally consistency which wins matches.

Basics like kicking from hand well are underrated by most sides. A good kick chase puts pressure.

Sounds like Toulouse need to use their players better to be honest. How can Toulouse's backs be average with the players they have?

kicking from hand requires the right fly half. the truth is that behind McAlister there is nobody to supply the backs with some decent ball. Beauxis has disapeared this season. SH is also a big problem as Luke Burgess is too slow for the game they want to play and Doussain has gone backwards. then you have 1 very good centre (Fritz) and one good prospect (Fickou) who is clearly too young to last a full game. on the wings, Medart is just coming back from injury and Matavanou been off for while. So many times they have to rely on semi retired players like Jauzion or Poitrenaud.

Overall the form of the players and the confindence is not great. Defense and good basics are not enough to win games like that so leicester away will be too much for them. if that english biaised ref George Clancy is also there, they better not even bother travelling.

George Clancy is definately not biased towards English teams. His interpretation of the breakdown is questionable, but that happens whomever he is officiating over.

yeah its worth bearing in mind that everyone hates the English, the chances of an Irishman being consciously biassed toward Tigers is pretty slim. about as likley as Rolland favouring Wales over France infact

whocares wrote:

beshocked wrote: Oh right - the backs make too many errors. Surely then Toulouse should just simplify things then? It's generally doing the basics well which wins game. Sure flash stuff looks good but it's generally consistency which wins matches.

Basics like kicking from hand well are underrated by most sides. A good kick chase puts pressure.

Sounds like Toulouse need to use their players better to be honest. How can Toulouse's backs be average with the players they have?

kicking from hand requires the right fly half. the truth is that behind McAlister there is nobody to supply the backs with some decent ball. Beauxis has disapeared this season. SH is also a big problem as Luke Burgess is too slow for the game they want to play and Doussain has gone backwards. then you have 1 very good centre (Fritz) and one good prospect (Fickou) who is clearly too young to last a full game. on the wings, Medart is just coming back from injury and Matavanou been off for while. So many times they have to rely on semi retired players like Jauzion or Poitrenaud.

Overall the form of the players and the confindence is not great. Defense and good basics are not enough to win games like that so leicester away will be too much for them. if that english biaised ref George Clancy is also there, they better not even bother travelling.

It's better to have George Clancy than have a French ref away in France. Does Clancy have any English relatives?

Defence and good basics are enough to win games.

beshocked wrote:

Defence and good basics are enough to win games.

It helps if the opposition fly half has a mental breakdown on 60 minutes though

Problem I see for Tigers is that their basics havent been good recently and their defensive record this season in Europe is not great.

Jimpy wrote:George Clancy is definately not biased towards English teams. His interpretation of the breakdown is questionable, but that happens whomever he is officiating over.

As anyobody here I am probably a little bit biaised but...

I have seen him officiating several times in HC games between french and english teams and he tends to favour the players that do speak his language when it comes to scrum and rucks. . I remember a QF between northampton and Perpignan 2 years ago where it was qsomehow obvious (Northampton clearly destroyed USAP in that game but didnt need the ref help). also was a bit of a homer in the 2011 crunch.

http://www.leicestertigers.com/news/15650.php

Interesting quick read on how they get the pitch ready for Sunday.

beshocked wrote:it's better to have George Clancy than have a French ref away in France. Does Clancy have any English relatives?

Defence and good basics are enough to win games.

very poor Beshocked...Rolland didnt do Racing many favours ...

and at high level, defense and good basics are not enough to win every games ... at least since 2003

beshocked wrote:

Jimpy wrote:I do wonder why teams don't simply copy the Harlequins' off-loading game. Leicester would be virtually unbeatable if they could work out how to do it.

Saracens have shown time and again how to nullify it/beat it.

Like any gameplan it can be beaten. It is more exciting though admittedly.

Leicester should stick to it's own identity because ultimately it has been very successful with it.

Tigers did have a gameplan pretty similar to that at the end of last season when you guys got 5 bp's on the bounce and scored 40+ points each game. I don't know why you've stopped.

Yes Saracens have nullified it, and so have a few other teams (Saints, Toulouse, Toulon all managed to once), but at the moment it works more often then it fails and even when it doesn't go to plan it's more interesting then kick tennis.

whocares wrote:

beshocked wrote:it's better to have George Clancy than have a French ref away in France. Does Clancy have any English relatives?

Defence and good basics are enough to win games.

very poor Beshocked...Rolland didnt do Racing many favours ...

and at high level, defense and good basics are not enough to win every games ... at least since 2003

You are of course right. He of course did see Strettle getting knocked unconscious illegally. He gave Estabenez a yellow card for that. Later on he of course saw Estebanez take out Ashton off the ball and gave him a yellow card....

Wait a minute... No he didn't. Instead Estabenez got no sin bin at all. Instead Ashton got sin binned for a slap. If you can even call it that.

That illegal taking out of Strettle did rock Saracens. They started the game well and that knocked them off their stride. When did they concede their 3 tries? After that period? Coincidence? I don't think so. A stoppage means you have to refocus.

Also Alain Rolland missed numerous Racing Metro stamps.

Estebanez has been cited which showed that his knocking Strettle unconscious was taken deadly seriously by the citing commissioner.

If you don't think that's important then you're just biased.

Maybe Estebanez is his relative? I don't know but he certainly seemed to be immune from Rolland's whistle.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMrZB9y7cac#t=01h14m40s

Here's the link. Skip to 10:16.

Looking at it again perhaps a red would be more appropriate.

Looked like he was trying to hook him back to me. Remarkably similar to the Hore incident (with similar results), itll be interesting to see how the bans match up.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Looked like he was trying to hook him back to me. Remarkably similar to the Hore incident (with similar results), itll be interesting to see how the bans match up.

Remember they'll double it as he's French. Unless he's a good christian husband, father and family man in which case it's halved.

http://www.rugbydump.com/2013/01/2956/fabrice-estebanez-knockout-hit-on-david-strettle

Estabenz shoulder charges someone :03 too.

Beshocked, read me again, I didnt use the word many for nothing. dont you worry about estebanez, being a french man with a bad record , he will surely get 20 weeks or more unlike Hore for a similar thing. Although I agree that it looks like a really bad cheap shot, in realtime it would have been easier for the linesman to spot it rather than Rolland if anything.

Just looking at that vid I wonder if the initial hook, which was bad enough, distracts you from seeing what happens when Strettle hits the ground with Estabenz's elbow on the back of his head

. Anthony Watson if he comes to you next season would be an excellent addition who would add a bit more X factor to let's be honest a pretty pedestrian back three.

Obviously losing A.Tuilagi and Agulla plus an ageing Murphy has lead to this.

The back three has been good this season. Geordan has looked pure class despite s serious knee injury. Tait is coming along nicely. Thompstone is finishing well and Morris is in great form. The issues are arising due to the complete lack if attacking game plan for the midfield backs. I have no idea what MOC is doing but currently he isn't earning his money.

To be fair to Rolland he had his back to the off the ball Estabenez challenge on Ashton and yc'd Ashton on advice from the touch judge.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

. Anthony Watson if he comes to you next season would be an excellent addition who would add a bit more X factor to let's be honest a pretty pedestrian back three.

Obviously losing A.Tuilagi and Agulla plus an ageing Murphy has lead to this.

The back three has been good this season. Geordan has looked pure class despite s serious knee injury. Tait is coming along nicely. Thompstone is finishing well and Morris is in great form. The issues are arising due to the complete lack if attacking game plan for the midfield backs. I have no idea what MOC is doing but currently he isn't earning his money.

To be fair to Rolland he had his back to the off the ball Estabenez challenge on Ashton and yc'd Ashton on advice from the touch judge.

What's happened to Hamilton and Benjamin? With A.Allen and M.Tuilagi surely you should be able to do some damage.

Is the video ref not used in the HC? Still I don't think it's right to have a French ref in a game involving a French side. I know Allain Roland is half Irish too but that's not enough IMO.

Geordan is 34. 35 in 3 months. You can't rely on him for too long though I acknowledge he's a great player.

Its a pity he didnt gouge someone in a T14 game then hed get off with a kiss and a cuddle.

Murphy has had a series of nasty injuries over the past 4 years that have really started top take their toll along with age. I just dont think he can put a whole season together now, but hes still a valuable squad member.

Goneva and Benjamin have been injured (is Benjamin out for the whole season?), Hamilton just hasnt been the player he threatened to be in his first season and is now just seeing out his contract. Big disappointment.

beshocked wrote:Still I don't think it's right to have a French ref in a game involving a French side. I know Allain Roland is half Irish too but that's not enough IMO.

He is not half Irish.
He is born bred and buttered in Ireland and lived his whole life there. Played all his rugby there.

He just happens to have a French Da and be able to speak the lingo. I'm not going to bother me hole digging up loads of examples of people you would consider as English as the queen who are in the same boat.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

beshocked wrote:Still I don't think it's right to have a French ref in a game involving a French side. I know Allain Roland is half Irish too but that's not enough IMO.

He is not half Irish.
He is born bred and buttered in Ireland and lived his whole life there. Played all his rugby there.

He just happens to have a French Da and be able to speak the lingo. I'm not going to bother me hole digging up loads of examples of people you would consider as English as the queen who are in the same boat.

Like the Queen, who is half German for example?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

beshocked wrote:Still I don't think it's right to have a French ref in a game involving a French side. I know Allain Roland is half Irish too but that's not enough IMO.

He is not half Irish.
He is born bred and buttered in Ireland and lived his whole life there. Played all his rugby there.

He just happens to have a French Da and be able to speak the lingo. I'm not going to bother me hole digging up loads of examples of people you would consider as English as the queen who are in the same boat.

Like the Queen, who is half German for example?

She's not half German she is born bred and buttered in..... ... she just happens to.........great great.........Dunno about the lingo.

Would you let her Ref a France Germany soccer match?

JeniferMcladyboy

Last time I checked the Queen doesn't ref rugby games.

You seem to think having a French father isn't important but it is. He even has a French name.

When you need someone to be impartial how is having a ref who can speak french and have a french dad that when involving a french side?

beshocked wrote:JeniferMcladyboy

Last time I checked the Queen doesn't ref rugby games.

You seem to think having a French father isn't important but it is. He even has a French name.

Stone him!

beshocked wrote:
When you need someone to be impartial how is having a ref who can speak french and have a french dad that when involving a french side?

Because he can explain things to both sides fluently in their native language.