england promising future?

England have some exciting young players coming through but to see young forwards is a bonus,cause most nations produce good young backs but not many forwards.if lawes,launcbury,b.vunipola and m.vunipola fufill potential england pack could be scary plus in backline likes of tuilagi,wade,joseph,may and one to watch antony watson and forgot daly england could have fastest backline of all time.2015 team could be:

1.corbesiero
2.t.youngs
3.cole
4.lawes
5.launchbury
6.wood
7.kvesvic
8.b.vunipola
9.b.youngs
10.burns/ford
11.wade
12.daly/twelvtrees
13.tuilagi
14.may
15.watson

16.hartley
17.m.vunipola
18.?
19.garvey/matthews
20.croft
21.care/simpson
22.ford/burns
23.joseph

I really hope Wade can live up to the expectations a lot of people have for him. He really looks a class act and I'd love to see him in action for England.

18.?

TH's?

Scott Wilson, Sinkler...theres a few coming through

Balmain will be the next Cole.

Shame to see you trying to ditch Alex Goode already, the guy is class.

I'd have Croft start every time if fit and Robshaw will still be around in 2015.

I find it Amazing that certain English fans don't exercise a touch more restraint when looking at the potential talents!!

Every season theres a new wonderboy or 3 of English rugby promoted by fans and media alike yet time after time these players prove the hype was premature!!

This is meant as no offence, but where was all the Cole hype? he is one of your few world class players!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:I find it Amazing that certain English fans don't exercise a touch more restraint when looking at the potential talents!!

Every season theres a new wonderboy or 3 of English rugby promoted by fans and media alike yet time after time these players prove the hype was premature!!

This is meant as no offence, but where was all the Cole hype? he is one of your few world class players!!

Got to say being Welsh you must have a pretty good understanding of that kind of behaviour

Not really, the only media coverage any of our players get is STILL sniffing around Henson!

And I did mean no offence LIW, just that players like Tait, Twelvetrees, Haskell and a host of others have been hailed the next messiah.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Not really, the only media coverage any of our players get is STILL sniffing around Henson!

And I did mean no offence LIW, just that players like Tait, Twelvetrees, Haskell and a host of others have been hailed the next messiah.

I think you've missed Cipriani off that list...

Getting back to the original post, England age group Rugby produces some amazing players, but am I right in thinking that a fair few dont seem to make the transition to senior football?

MotelMoneyMurderMadness wrote:Getting back to the original post, England age group Rugby produces some amazing players, but am I right in thinking that a fair few dont seem to make the transition to senior football?

Ask Scotland about that

thebluesmancometh wrote:Not really, the only media coverage any of our players get is STILL sniffing around Henson!

And I did mean no offence LIW, just that players like Tait, Twelvetrees, Haskell and a host of others have been hailed the next messiah.

Call me when Preistland is back on the christmas card list. I see the Dragons fans are laying into Toby "we dont need Morgan" Faletau again too.

Sam,

The 6 spot is an interesting debate...it would appear to be down to Croft v Wood when both fit and on form...both offering slightly different skills.

It will be interesting to see changes between now and 2015...but in all honesty i cant see there being a huge amount. We are beginning to get a very strong core, that is young, yet experienced and getting better and better.

Players like Slater, Kruis, Wade, May, etc etc etc will certainly be looked at and if they strengthen as say Launchbury has done then they will be brought through...but not just for the sake of bringing new people in...

I often find when compiling a list of promising youngsters we let our enthusiasm get away from us.

Many of the players in the OP's list are already playing for england, you cannot look at them and say they are promising as they are already there.

Perhaps looking at the best 5 non capped players will be more prudent as those are the guys who show promise.

Nothing wrong with saying this could be the team in 2015 though, anything is possible.

But rather look at youngsters coming through from the U20's and suggest why they could be representing England.

I think the author is trying to avoid that logical suggestion, Biltong.

It's much easier to mull over the current crop and then try and pick out those who may (or may not) have a promising future... and are a bit on the young side as well.

Something we would never do of course... since we are always ahead of the curve when it comes to delivering so-called promises.

It's officially illegal to be optimistic if you're English

Nobody sane is getting carried away.

biltong, although a fair few players in the OP's line-up have played for England there are quite a few who have had their chances limited by injuries (Corbs, Lawes, Wood etc). A combination of these players coming back, stalwarts like Cole and Tuilagi together with these up and coming players could be very nice mix.

(pipes down and stops being all upbeat)

Fine, I just wanted to say something for a change.

I think Hartley though shown how much promise he has already.

You wicked Boer!

Me?

I am one of those innocent Boers, bored out of his mind, nothing good to read on here tday or anywhere else for that matter.

Promising future would be more like

1.Cowan-Dickie
2.Spurling
3.Sinckler
4.Itoje
5.Barrow
6. ?
7.Ksevic
8.Clifford
9.Spencer
10.Slade
11.Clark
12.Hill
13.Daly
14.Yarde
15.Watson

Cyril on 606v2 wrote: ...stalwarts like Cole and Tuilagi

Tuilagi is only 21. If he steers clear of major injury (which would be a miracle tbh) he could be there for the next 3 world cups

You can include Zach Kibirige in that list then Beshocked...young winger with us...rapid and scored in every game he's played in...not bad for an 18yo school boy...

lostinwales wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote: ...stalwarts like Cole and Tuilagi

Tuilagi is only 21. If he steers clear of major injury (which would be a miracle tbh) he could be there for the next 3 world cups

And prior to an excellent performance v NZ...i pretty sure i saw many calls on here for him to move to the wing...or be replaced by JJ because he was "greedy" , "couldnt pass", "not creative enough" etc etc

lostinwales wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote: ...stalwarts like Cole and Tuilagi

Tuilagi is only 21. If he steers clear of major injury (which would be a miracle tbh) he could be there for the next 3 world cups

Yeah, I agree. Both could and should be around for a long time. Both are pretty much first names on the team-sheet. Stalwart: firm, resolute, immovable.

Geordie, I know of only one poster who keeps saying that Tuilagi is a winger. That poster isn't English.

And tbh Tuliagi is only 'adequate' in a number of areas, but its a bit like refusing to take the ferrari because there isnt enough space in the boot.

lostinwales wrote:And tbh Tuliagi is only 'adequate' in a number of areas, but its a bit like refusing to take the ferrari because there isnt enough space in the boot.

Quite. I sometimes think we get too caught up in wanting jack-of-all-trades who end up being fairly average. The side needs balance to cover for any weaknesses, but give me a player with something a bit extra and I'll overlook areas that aren't spot-on.

Quite. I sometimes think we get too caught up in wanting jack-of-all-trades who end up being fairly average.

Cyril

This is my thought when we speak about wingers (wade for example)...the first criticism is that Wade is defensively very poor...SO WHAT!!!! he's electric going forward and being in the Seniors will improve his defensive positioning.

Cant we have a player in the side that is actually going to frighten the opposition for change instead of us saying...ooh we need to stop their player.....

GeordieFalcon wrote:You can include Zach Kibirige in that list then Beshocked...young winger with us...rapid and scored in every game he's played in...not bad for an 18yo school boy...

I've heard about this kid from an ex-falcon I train with from time to time.....supposed to be very quick and getting quicker! Not been to any games at all this year so not seen him play......was he an accademy lad or was he plucked from nowhere/schools rugby? We potentially have some of the quickest wingers around but in almost all of my days watching england seem very rarely to know how to use them!!

Again I honestly mean no offence (although it will be taken by the same few) but I don't see what the fuss is all about with Wade, once again last night he was particularly average, showed a lack of any real power and any decently organised defence can cope with him comfortably.

I'd put him on par with Harry Robinson at the Blues, both quick and sharp but it remains to be seen if they can step up to top club level let alone int level!!!

bluesman, people who say "no offence" generally do mean to offend. It's an unwritten rule

Don't forget, you changed your mind about Tuilagi so we'll wait for you to do the same about Wade.

Come on, comparing anyone with a Blues player is pretty offensive!

You are perfectly correct, Tuilagi has improved dramatically but the difference is Tuilagi always had the physical attributes for destruction, and instead of being able to contain him he is developing his game to stay destructive!

I may well be totally wrong about Wade, although I havn't said he won't be good or won't make it, I have just said that I remain unconvinced as of yet, and I wouldn't be raving about a baa baas game in which a very unimpressive Robinson did similar

Thing is, bluesman I think you're picking up this 'raving' and 'messiah' talk from somewhere else. If it's the media, then don't take it to heart. They're paid to write sensationalist stuff. Like coaches talking about players being the best in Europe.

We're hoping for good things from Wade etc, but time will tell. Nobody is shouting names from the rooftops or getting over-excited as far as I can see.

Perception is a big factor. Players like Wade will look great if they get an opportunity to do their thing, but if they are effectively shut down/ just plain unlucky they wont. Playing in the evening in the current weather doesnt help.

Bigger guys always look more impressive because if they get momentum they can cause damage whatever the conditions, but 80 minutes of running into people and making a yard or 2 may be a lot less effective than the one break that leads to a score.

Well not to dispute but Ive seen Wade play lots this year, seen him in space, score, and beak the line a few times himself, I am just unconvinced by what a lot of people in the media, fans and 606 ers are saying.

Last nights game wasn't wet, the ground was hard enough and a lot of Wasps and Dragons players excelled, and quite a few backs too so there was no excuse for conditions!

There was also no excuse for running into touch twice, failing to make his tackles, trying to run through a number 7 and trying to use what power he does have in the wrong areas, last night a decent (but not very good) Dragons defence coped with him as he is, a kid. And thats no offence to him, I'm sure he'll get better, if he were on the other wing I wouldve felt a touch sorry for him, I am no Varndell fan but he got nothing to play with last night, no opportunity at all, and partly down to Wade being used as the danger man, he ran some very good inside and outside lines off Robinson but went nowhere.

I'm not slating Wade, I just think my impression is that he is a kid trying to make an impact, would I put him in my England team... no.

And that's your opinion. When I've seen Wade play this season and last I've seen the absolute opposite though

ultra wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:You can include Zach Kibirige in that list then Beshocked...young winger with us...rapid and scored in every game he's played in...not bad for an 18yo school boy...

I've heard about this kid from an ex-falcon I train with from time to time.....supposed to be very quick and getting quicker! Not been to any games at all this year so not seen him play......was he an accademy lad or was he plucked from nowhere/schools rugby? We potentially have some of the quickest wingers around but in almost all of my days watching england seem very rarely to know how to use them!!

Ultra

He's from the academy but based at Yarm school in Stockton. Hes very confident for his age and yes very quick. Deano has been giving him games in the B&I Cup and against some of the bottom half of the championship teams and he's been scoring...one for the future.

Bluesman,

People do see different things in players...for example some rave about Tom Croft at 6...i dont see it...and prefer Wood.

With regards to Wade...he is a try scorer (leading prem scorer at the moment i think), who has that little bit extra like a great side step, pace...and importantly a he has a deceiving amount of strength...he seems to be difficult to put down. I guess time will tell if he can move on to the International scene and do it, but it'll be interesting to watch.

CJ

The opposite really? An old fat guy who shows no ability whatsoever????

What Wade didn't show last night was his ability to beat people head on - He has gas to burn and given space and a gap he will be through it no problem. If he can develop a side-step/jink on the move then he will go all the way, if not, we may see more ineffective performances like last night. Time is well on his side and a good coach would get him to watch dvd's of Shane and Jason Robinson so he can add that vital weapon to his natural speed. Good luck young man

Ha! Well played.

Geordie

I don't disagree, I am just saying we don't know if he'll make regular club rugby let alone int or world class as plenty are saying. Decent kid who shows potential IMHO

Wont make regular club rugby? Hes started pretty much every game this season and most of last. He is wasps 1st choice winger.

The only reason he didn't last season is due to injury too

I think it's more to do with the quantity of potential players coming through, a few seasons ago it was only 2 or 3 who looked good enough to make an international impact (and some of those were more in hope than expectation imo), now its 7 or 8, maybe the question should be is the wage cap and club academy structure starting to bear fruit?

maybe the question should be is the wage cap and club academy structure starting to bear fruit

Yes it is...we've finally got away from the average southern hemisphere journeymen coming for one last pay day and giving the kids the chance...only gonna benefit English rugby....and even the other home nations might get a player or two out of it...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

maybe the question should be is the wage cap and club academy structure starting to bear fruit

Yes it is...we've finally got away from the average southern hemisphere journeymen coming for one last pay day and giving the kids the chance...only gonna benefit English rugby....and even the other home nations might get a player or two out of it...

That sounds good Geordie - save us developing players like Ben Morgan for yer - Whayyyyaye Man

Well if we do as well out of Morgan as you did out of Charvis I wouldnt complain

Still if we get injuries to Dan Cole and Manu tuilagi then were are up poop creek, say what you like about JJ, Lowe and Tomkins or Wilson and...... but without these guys and we lose some serious power.

lostinwales wrote:Well if we do as well out of Morgan as you did out of Charvis I wouldnt complain

We developed him as well

sirtidychris wrote:Still if we get injuries to Dan Cole and Manu tuilagi then were are up poop creek, say what you like about JJ, Lowe and Tomkins or Wilson and...... but without these guys and we lose some serious power.

Tuilagi is pretty much the sole attacking option for the back-line so losing him would see half the team written off. Losing Cole, whilst in my opinion the best Tight Head in World rugby at the moment, would be a huge blow Wilson can cover just as well as Cole in the Scrum particularly if Corbs is on the other side. What we would lose is Cole's breakdown work. In exchange we'd get Wilson's carrying of which Cole does very little.

I actually think, despite Cole's superb ability losing Tuilagi would be a bigger blow for the team.

Chjw131 wrote:

sirtidychris wrote:Still if we get injuries to Dan Cole and Manu tuilagi then were are up poop creek, say what you like about JJ, Lowe and Tomkins or Wilson and...... but without these guys and we lose some serious power.

Tuilagi is pretty much the sole attacking option for the back-line so losing him would see half the team written off. Losing Cole, whilst in my opinion the best Tight Head in World rugby at the moment, would be a huge blow Wilson can cover just as well as Cole in the Scrum particularly if Corbs is on the other side. What we would lose is Cole's breakdown work. In exchange we'd get Wilson's carrying of which Cole does very little.

I actually think, despite Cole's superb ability losing Tuilagi would be a bigger blow for the team.

That depends who else is in the backline IMO. If Farrell is at 10 with Barritt at 12 then the wings practically don't see the ball making Manu our only attacking treat in the backs, losing him would therefore be a huge blow. However if we had 10.Burns 12.Twelvetrees the rest of the backline would see more of the ball and the 10/12 axis would offer attacking threats themselves. In that case I think Cole would be a bigger blow as the platform his breakdown and set piece work could give Burns would be a huge threat.

Its true that owen farrell offers little attacking threat, he just passes the ball along one or kicks it and I can only remember barrit breaking the line once, albeit against the AB's but this is what they have been asked to do for club. Just look at the stats..

Sarries have scored 13 tries all season, the worst in the AP, less than Sale, LI and LW. In comparison Harelquins have scored 33 tries. However Sarries have only let in 10 tries against them the best defense in the AP...Worst attackers in england best defenders in England and very successful to boot...and essesntially this is the core of the team and style we have adopted for england.

I would love it if Burns and 12 trees lived up to the hype and became a creative combo who can kick the pressure points and offer an attacking threat but still great defense, therefore giving manu some space and providing oppotunites for broken play runners like Foden, Ashton, Croft and Lawes to tear the pitch up, rather than just tuck it up the jumper.