2012/13 Premier League discussion thread part 3

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

Let the talk, arguments, disagreements and bickering continue...

I really fancy a Spurs win today.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I wonder whether Arsenal fans would sacrifice a Champions League place here and there for a couple of domestic cups?

I'm fairly sure they would.

Winning a cup > Getting to the Champions League last 16 or last 8 and getting knocked out every season.

[Whistler]

On a side note it really does sadden me. I grew up with their early 2000s team, one of the greatest groups of players I've ever seen. And to see that their legacy has lead into what is a glorified mid table side really is quite saddening!

They have some very good players, but they need to add 3 maybe 4 genuine top class players, and/or some with championship winning experience, prefably in England. Otherwise the only way is downwards down the table!

[Guest]

Yes Whistler. In my opinion the Invincibles side is arguably the best team of the Premier League era although the 98/99 Utd team was immense.

[Ent]

On a side note it really does sadden me. I grew up with their early 2000s team, one of the greatest groups of players I've ever seen. And to see that their legacy has lead into what is a glorified mid table side really is quite saddening!

They have some very good players, but they need to add 3 maybe 4 genuine top class players, and/or some with championship winning experience, prefably in England. Otherwise the only way is downwards down the table!

I wouldn't exaggerate, in a weak time for the pl they couldn't retain a title and made no impression in Europe.

I'd day they are a whole lot short of contesting the title, look at the points totals required for the last few title wins.

As for wins, had they grabbed a league cup/ fa cup it would have given the players belief and experience of winning (similar to united in 06) and may have stopped the haemorraghe of players in the last 2-3 seasons.

[Guest]

I disagree Ent. The PL was a whole lot stronger then than it is now. 98 - 2008 were the golden years. They also made the CL final in 06.

[Ent]

Bit of a blip this season but you have Chelsea, city, united winning the league the last 3 seasons along with arguably spurs and evertons best pl sides.

In 04 united were in transition and Chelsea were just about to explode under mourinho. 06 isnt the early 00s and in 06 wenger had already begun selling some of the stalwarts of that side.

If they were that good they would have retained a title or made an impression in Europe.

[Crimey]

I don't think there is anybody in the Arsenal squad at the moment who has actually won a trophy with Arsenal.

[Ent]

Think rvp was the last one with an fa cup in 05- and of course he's left.

[Guest]

Think rvp was the last one with an fa cup in 05- and of course he's left.

...to win a PL winners medal in his first season. Justified move.

I fancy you to take care of Real in the 2nd leg too Ent.

[Imperial Ghosty]

The invincibles were a one season wonder dare I say it, even that season they drew something like 13 games so despite going unbeaten didn't amass a huge points total as the recent champions have. Reached one champions league season aside from which they didn't look like threatening the big boys of europe. Going unbeaten was a hell of an achievement but it has led many to seriously over rate that particular Arsenal team.

[Ent]

Think rvp was the last one with an fa cup in 05- and of course he's left.

...to win a PL winners medal in his first season. Justified move.

I fancy you to take care of Real in the 2nd leg too Ent.

Fingers crossed on both counts anyway.

Nervous about return leg, had rvp connected with that volley think we would have coasted through.

[Guest]

The invincibles were a one season wonder dare I say it, even that season they drew something like 13 games so despite going unbeaten didn't amass a huge points total as the recent champions have. Reached one champions league season aside from which they didn't look like threatening the big boys of europe. Going unbeaten was a hell of an achievement but it has led many to seriously over rate that particular Arsenal team.

I'd still say that Arsenal team was possibly the best team of the PL era regardless, one season wonder or not. I'm not sure how you can overate a side that went an entire campaign unbeaten and it's not Arsenal's fault that everybody was beating everybody else. They were also a side that played football in a free flowing risque manner unlike the Mourinho Chelsea team of a year later who played in an entirely opposite manner but still get plaudits to this day.

They definitely underachieved in Europe but had they had the same kinda luck that Utd (99) and Chelsea (2012) had had then perhaps they would have been given more props than they have?

I genuinely believe that the 04 Arsenal team and 99 Man Utd teams were the best in the last 20 years. The Mourinho Chelsea team were effectively methodical and the Utd side of the past 5/6 years were the best of an average bunch.

[Ent]

They won one trophy, didn't retain their title or impact Europe and failed to get a record points total despite being unbeaten in the league. Even their unbeaten record is questionable given defeats in the cups.

It amazes me you can view the united side who won 3/4 leagues, making 3/4 cl finals whilst setting defensive and cl records at a time when the pl provided 3/4 cl semi finalists (and having pls only wpoty) as the best of a bad bunch- that description best fits arsenal 03/04 really.

[Guest]

They won one trophy, didn't retain their title or impact Europe and failed to get a record points total despite being unbeaten in the league. Even their unbeaten record is questionable given defeats in the cups.

It amazes me you can view the united side who won 3/4 leagues, making 3/4 cl finals whilst setting defensive and cl records at a time when the pl provided 3/4 cl semi finalists (and having pls only wpoty) as the best of a bad bunch- that description best fits arsenal 03/04 really.

What does a cup defeat mean when we are talking the league here Ent? They went a whole PL campaign undefeated. Not unquestionable just a fact.

An Arsenal side containing a peak Campbell, Toure, Cole, Ljunberg, Vieira, Pires, Gilberto, Bergkamp and Henry would wipe the floor with any of the recent Utd sides and if you know it.

Utd weren't even at the races in their last two CL finals.

[Crimey]

I think the 07/08 side where they had Ronaldo has the world's best player, Vidic and Ferdinand at their peaks, Hargreaves in the centre playing really well would definitely give the 03/04 Arsenal side a good game.

[Guest]

I think the 07/08 side where they had Ronaldo has the world's best player, Vidic and Ferdinand at their peaks, Hargreaves in the centre playing really well would definitely give the 03/04 Arsenal side a good game.

Maybe Crimey. Maybe..

[Ent]

They won one trophy, didn't retain their title or impact Europe and failed to get a record points total despite being unbeaten in the league. Even their unbeaten record is questionable given defeats in the cups.

It amazes me you can view the united side who won 3/4 leagues, making 3/4 cl finals whilst setting defensive and cl records at a time when the pl provided 3/4 cl semi finalists (and having pls only wpoty) as the best of a bad bunch- that description best fits arsenal 03/04 really.

What does a cup defeat mean when we are talking the league here Ent? They went a whole PL campaign undefeated. Not unquestionable just a fact.

An Arsenal side containing a peak Campbell, Toure, Cole, Ljunberg, Vieira, Pires, Gilberto, Bergkamp and Henry would wipe the floor with any of the recent Utd sides and if you know it.

Utd weren't even at the races in their last two CL finals.

There run of games undefeated (all competitions) from that season isn't a record, neither is least number of losses in a season theirs.

Are we now pretending gilberto, toure, ljunberg are great players?

That season united were unbeaten against this arsenal side, beat them in the fa cup, the next season we beat them home and away and we hadn't a particularly good side then.

Only one side would be wiping the floor in any hypothetical rematch.

Henry aside the 98 sides probably better than that arsenal side, better back 5 and petit and overmars.

[Ent]

I think the 07/08 side where they had Ronaldo has the world's best player, Vidic and Ferdinand at their peaks, Hargreaves in the centre playing really well would definitely give the 03/04 Arsenal side a good game.

They'd hammer them.

[Guest]

They won one trophy, didn't retain their title or impact Europe and failed to get a record points total despite being unbeaten in the league. Even their unbeaten record is questionable given defeats in the cups.

It amazes me you can view the united side who won 3/4 leagues, making 3/4 cl finals whilst setting defensive and cl records at a time when the pl provided 3/4 cl semi finalists (and having pls only wpoty) as the best of a bad bunch- that description best fits arsenal 03/04 really.

What does a cup defeat mean when we are talking the league here Ent? They went a whole PL campaign undefeated. Not unquestionable just a fact.

An Arsenal side containing a peak Campbell, Toure, Cole, Ljunberg, Vieira, Pires, Gilberto, Bergkamp and Henry would wipe the floor with any of the recent Utd sides and if you know it.

Utd weren't even at the races in their last two CL finals.

There run of games undefeated (all competitions) from that season isn't a record, neither is least number of losses in a season theirs.

Are we now pretending gilberto, toure, ljunberg are great players?

That season united were unbeaten against this arsenal side, beat them in the fa cup, the next season we beat them home and away and we hadn't a particularly good side then.

Only one side would be wiping the floor in any hypothetical rematch.

Henry aside the 98 sides probably better than that arsenal side, better back 5 and petit and overmars.

You telling me that a team has lost less than no matches in a season?

I love you Ent. You complete me.

[Guest]

I think the 07/08 side where they had Ronaldo has the world's best player, Vidic and Ferdinand at their peaks, Hargreaves in the centre playing really well would definitely give the 03/04 Arsenal side a good game.

They'd hammer them.

[Ent]

Notice I did not say domestic season.

If a team containing a back four of Neville, silvestre, brown and oshea with djemba djemba in midfield can get a draw at highbury I'd back the 08 team to smash them.

Mind you we chinned them away a year later with only 1 of the players you listed not starting.

Got any repostes to the fact united beat this arsenal side regularly?

[Guest]

You may have chinned them that year but where did you finish that season? Wigan beat you last year but so what.

Just admit that Arsenal side was great and we can move on kidda.

[Ent]

Great teams retain titles and win multiple trophies, good team with 1 great achievement.

I fail to see how that arsenal side wipes the floor with a better side than them when we beat them 3 times (and drew twice) in the time they had that side, before they started selling the team off.

We were playing the likes of djemba djemba and quintin fortune against them lol.

[Ent]

The 98 and 02arsenal aides were better, both did the double and had genuine competition from strong united sides.

[Guest]

The 98 and 02arsenal aides were better, both did the double and had genuine competition from strong united sides.

Ent if I told you today was Sunday you'd argue that it's Monday.

[Ent]

The 98 and 02arsenal aides were better, both did the double and had genuine competition from strong united sides.

Ent if I told you today was Sunday you'd argue that it's Monday.

If you've no repostes that's fine.

[Guest]

The 98 and 02arsenal aides were better, both did the double and had genuine competition from strong united sides.

Ent if I told you today was Sunday you'd argue that it's Monday.

If you've no repostes that's fine.

[Ent]

Goodnight then.

[Guest]

Goodnight then.

Night night. xxx

[JamesLincs]

<3

[The Special Juan]

</3

I've just had a look at those two teams. Who would win if the match was played at a neutral venue and the players were "at their peak"?

The Invincibles

Lehmann
Lauren - Campbell - Toure - Cole
Ljungberg - Viera - Gilberto - Pires
Bergkamp
Henry

v

Tevez - Rooney
Ronaldo - Carrick - Scholes - Hargreaves
Evra - Ferdinand - Vidic - Brown
Van Der Sar

2008 Champions League Winning Team

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Just watching the FA Cup highlights and that Arsenal looked exactly like the one we beat at Carrow Road this season. No urgency, no desire, just lackluster.

They can't seem to put a decent cross in half the time.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

</3

I've just had a look at those two teams. Who would win if the match was played at a neutral venue and the players were "at their peak"?

The Invincibles

Lehmann
Lauren - Campbell - Toure - Cole
Ljungberg - Viera - Gilberto - Pires
Bergkamp
Henry

v

Tevez - Rooney
Ronaldo - Carrick - Scholes - Hargreaves
Evra - Ferdinand - Vidic - Brown
Van Der Sar

2008 Champions League Winning Team

I'd say it'd be a draw, with maybe the Invincibles side nicking it.

[Crimey]

Yeah, I think that is incredibly close. I wouldn't put money on either winning. Although I do think Ronaldo might be the difference in those two sides. Henry was good, excellent even, but Ronaldo will go down as one of the best players to live and in 07/08 he finally exploded.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

True but then you have to consider just how solid that Arsenal side were

Henry and Bergkamp together was something else

[The Special Juan]

I think you have to break it down:

Van der Sar v Lehmann - Even
FB's - Cole and Lauren
CB's - Ferdinand and Vidic
Wingers - Ronaldo and Hargreaves purely because of Ronaldo
CM's - Pretty much even
Forwards - Henry and Bergkamp

I can't separate it but if I had to, I may just give it to the Utd team because of Ronaldo and the defence but it would be very, very close.

[Crimey]

Then again Ronaldo at this time never really produced it in the big games, Henry on the other hand thrived in the biggest games.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Viera would destroy Carrick. Literally run all over him

TSJ makes a valid point on Ronaldo and the same can apply for Rooney imo

[The Special Juan]

He scored in the CL final. That's good enough for me

[JamesLincs]

i hate arsenal with a passion, but i have to say, that arsenal team was better. i cant believe fergie came out and said his current team is better than his 1999 team! i remember him being unsure whether that 08 team was better than his 99' team. but the current side are nowhere near the level of his 08 team, so i dont get it!

but as i said, arsenal 04 is better than united 08, imo

[Imperial Ghosty]

The treble winning side were undeniably a better team than the invincibles, three successive league titles as well as a champions league and fa cup puts them head and shoulders above everyone else. The team that comes closest is the 2006-2009 united team, 3 successive league titles as well a champions league title as well as two other finals in the subsequent 3 years. Only one side has ever dominated the premier league and that's Man United.

[Ent]

Yeah united would win easily, lets not forget the invincible a couldn't beat a hastily inferior united side and lost to them on 3 occasions with that side.

Not buying the head to head either.

Also the not performing in big games myth rearing it head when Henry was often accused of the same.

07/08 the only sides Ronaldo didn't score against were barca and a mid table city side. The following year he scored in each cl knock out phase.

[Duty281]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21492663

I'm the best manager in England says Mancini. Of course you are, only £500 million for one Premier league (won on GD against a Man United team missing their captain for 75% of the season), and one FA Cup (against Stoke). Top achievement.

[The Special Juan]

To be fair to Roberto, he was misquoted as he actually said something along the lines of "Over the past 18 months I'm the best manager in England."

Still, it's a load of crap. Didn't he say Fergie was the best in the world not that long ago?

[The Special Juan]

We want Persie! We want Persie!

[The Special Juan]

Phew. See you in the quarters, Chelsea

[The Special Juan]

McAnuff deserved that.

[westisbest]

Just watching the FA Cup highlights and that Arsenal looked exactly like the one we beat at Carrow Road this season. No urgency, no desire, just lackluster.

They can't seem to put a decent cross in half the time.

Hopefully that will be the same team on saturday.

The Claret & Blue survival bus has pulled out of Villa Park. Next stop the Emirates, all aboard.

[Stella]

The treble winning side were undeniably a better team than the invincibles, three successive league titles as well as a champions league and fa cup puts them head and shoulders above everyone else. The team that comes closest is the 2006-2009 united team, 3 successive league titles as well a champions league title as well as two other finals in the subsequent 3 years. Only one side has ever dominated the premier league and that's Man United.

Chelsea's team of 04-06 was as good as any. 95 points in the 04-05 season is still a record that Utd may get close to this season.

[CFCNick]

The treble winning side were undeniably a better team than the invincibles, three successive league titles as well as a champions league and fa cup puts them head and shoulders above everyone else. The team that comes closest is the 2006-2009 united team, 3 successive league titles as well a champions league title as well as two other finals in the subsequent 3 years. Only one side has ever dominated the premier league and that's Man United.

Chelsea's team of 04-06 was as good as any. 95 points in the 04-05 season is still a record that Utd may get close to this season.

The 04-05 season was an epic achievement. Look at these records. 95 points, 29 wins, 1 defeat, only conceded 15 goals in 38 games, 25 clean sheets.

And to the poster above mentioning our style if play. We won 17 games by two or more goals and Robben and Duff were the best wingers at the time. I'd compare them then to Ronaldo and Tevez in 07-08. Although the 06-07 United team came close to Chelsea's 04-05.

Here's the best champions in year order.

United 93-94
42 games, 92 points, 27 wins, 4 defeats, 38 goals conceded, 80 goals scored.

Blackburn 94-95
42 games, 89 points, 27 wins, 7 defeats, 39 goals conceded, 80 goals scored.

United 00-01
38 games, 91 points, 28 wins, 6 defeats, 45 goals conceded, 79 goals scored.

Arsenal 03-04
38 games, 90 points, 26 wins, 0 defeats, 26 goals conceded, 73 goals scored.

Chelsea 04-05
38 games, 95 points, 29 wins, 1 defeat, 15 goals conceded, 72 goals scored.

Chelsea 05-06
38 games, 91 points, 29 wins, 5 defeats, 22 goals conceded, 72 goals scored.

United 06-07
38 games, 89 points, 28 wins, 5 defeats, 27 goals conceded, 83 goals scored.

United 07-08
38 games, 87 points, 27 wins, 5 defeats, 22 goals conceded, 80 goals scored.

* Chelsea lost only 3 games in 06-07 & 07-08 but drew 10 & 11.

Chelsea 09-10
38 games, 86 points, 27 wins, 6 defeats, 32 goals conceded, 103 goals scored.

City 11-12
38 games, 89 points, 28 wins, 5 defeats, 29 goals conceded, 93 goals scored.

After looking at these I'd say Chelsea 04-06 were the best followed by United 06-09 and then Arsenal 03-04. The Treble side in 99 only got 79 points.

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