The Greatest a snapshot in Time for George Carlin

George Carlin this is for you from a previous thread your Greatest Articles are to forment Debate.Because you are I hope wise enough to
know it is just anyones opinion.That it is impossible to compare like with like only era with era,my credentials and biases are well known.

But for convenience I will re-iterate them,I am an Anglo-Scot BUT my primary Team is the AllBlacks since 1953-4.My knowledge of Rugby Union is vast especially NZ although not so much Non-Test in recent years,and is gleaned from watching,reading,and talking to people
for nearly 60 years.

I try to be Objective not Subjective in my opinions and I am cursed with a more or less photographic memory and what I say now.Is strictly my own opinion although in some cases by what I have read.Firstly there is NO Greatest Player in any position or Greatest Team In my 60 years I have seen thousands of Great Players and Hundreds of Great Teams.In my opinion many Great Players did`nt play in Great teams,that Teams go in cycles etc.Also that stastics are just that and should`nt be taken as holy writ etc.

Prior to 1981-2 when they went into exile SA were the MOST successful side BUT were NOT the Best from 1921 two teams contested the
de facto World Champions title SA and NZ.With the exception of the period 1937-49 Home advantage decided that title until said date.

The 1937 Bok side was considered THE best ever to Tour NZ,and the 1949 side won in my opinion by two quirks of fate. Firstly the inability
of R.W.H Scott to kick goals,something he did at home in bare feet from half way.Secondly in the First Test Jack van der Schyff was the Bok
Goalkicker a Rhodesian and a fearsome Tackler.

He missed his first kick at goal,the second attempt went to "Okey" Geffin the rest is History. 4-0 Boks but they were all only a single score apart in each. Politics MAY have effected Selections of both sides PRE 1970 and post 1991 BUT in my opinion only George Nepia and Jimmy Mill were effected 1928 and both were true Greats.

BUT only 1949 side was truly effected and even then it was Forward that was the main problem.Only Vic Cavanagh had cracked the Bok Scrum and he was persona non grata with the selectors. He just happened to be THE best NZ Forwards coach ever.Also Scrum Half in the Forty Niners was a problem neither of the two who travelled were of the calibre of Doc Paewai or Vince Bevan.

George Nepia was a Legend on the 1925-6 tour 19 years old playing every Match,after that he had few chances before going League where he enjoyed a huge reputation.

Danie Craven Mr Rugby in SA,Great Captain,player,coach,administrator a Bok Legend in the first side to win a series in NZ.BUT Charles[Kiwi]
Saxton Scrum half,Captain,coach,manager is a footnote in History.Captain of the NZServices side 1945-6,Captain of the losing All Blacks side 1937.Manager of the 1967 AllBlacks in Uk .Considered by many the equal of Craven as a player etc.

I never saw the 1951-2 Boks side but my Scottish relatives talked to me of the Murrayfield Masscre of Scotland .My First Touring side watched
was 1953-4 AllBlacks,the dour Southern Counties and the Armed Forces matches,there were Great s in that team,Scott,Kevin Skinner[THE BEST prop i`ve seen either Head]hooker Ron Hemi,Lock Tiny White,wing Ron Jarden,and Flanker Bill Clarke.

But it was a team in rebuilding and played Winning Rugby for want of a better word,then the 1958 Wallabies .Des Connor my pick as THE best 9 i`ve seen,next it was the 1960-61 Boks unbeaten until a Lions strength Barbarians beat them in the Last match of the tour by playing 10 man Rugby,in 1961-2 Lions playing in that style were badly beaten.Needless to say there were many great Players in the side,Claasans,Bedford ,Hopwood,Lockyer,
Oxlee,the fearsome Mannie Roux,Martin Pelser [I think]

The last touring side i saw Live was the 1963-4 All Blacks and THE worst match of that tour frankly it was dreadful,negative very disappointing.
That side was THE Best touring side to the UK in the pre RWC days,Greats included Whineray,Tremain,Grey,Young,Don Clarke,Ian Clarke,Nathan,Meads Bros. Kirton,Dick, Laidlaw,Davis,and Macrae were to become ones.

That the 1967 side was inferior and on a longer Tour would have been found out .Lions 1955 were playing the core of the 1951-2 Boks therefore THE greatest Lions.I959 Lions with a better Goal kicker would have won the series,1966 Lions was a better team of individuals than 1971
BUT not as a Team.The 1974 Lions beat a Boks side in decline,that with better Goal kicking NZ would have won both 1970 and 1971 series.

That the 1965 Bok side in Nz was better all round than the 1970 side that beat the ABs,and that the 1960 All Blacks side was THE best side to tour there post war.NOW thats opened a can of worms lets have some comments please note this is a snapshot from the past and finishes in 1981-2.when major tours finished Lions aside.

In my opinion the Lions side of 1955 to SA were THE Greatest Lions

That's a great post Alan - for that, many thanks. I don't think that anyone on these boards is doubting your holistic interest, credentials and breadth of experience.

As most people have worked out - the 'Greatest' polls are a slightly tongue in cheek way of finding out about the demographics of these boards. They will show people's favourites and so tacitly also what people grew up watching. There are inevitably exceptions but in most part, as you have pointed out, often the best players did not play for the best teams at the time and vice versa (Duckam, Irvine, there are dozens of others).

I have tried to provide potted timelines for those shortlisted players with a view to informing others about players that they may otherwise know little about but as you know, people's favourites are their favourites and by nature tend to rest in the head unexamined.

It is clear that given the former BBC base of the original 606 (from which this site plopped out when the original 606 was closed by the bean counters), these boards are dominated by Northern Hemisphere posters aged approximately 18-35 (it seems). This tends to favour the professional era in terms of players watched but similarly there is an impressive number of people who will ensure that the 'Greatest' team does contain a reasonable number of players who were at their peak in the late 80s and 90s.

Like many posters of a certain age (I'm 35), I inevitably suffer from a lack of Southern Hemisphere knowledge and the lack of video footage available from past generations. I have looked for it and have been pleasantly surprised by what has turned up but regardless, as I'm sure you'll appreciate, great players are brought to the attention of younger players more by anecdotes than still or moving pictures.

When I found footage of Danie Gerber tearing through a Barbarians midfield I absolutely could not believe the raw power and animal explosiveness but of course apartheid meant that we in the west were denied exposure to his (and other) talents for a prolonged period of time.

As you have also pointed out, there is a lot of 'received wisdom' in the sport. Whilst many of the Lions series wins, for example, as regarded as great play by a great number of players for the simple reason that winning any SH test series is difficult - it is not often questioned whether the SH teams that they played against were the best of their country's vintage.

Certain things that I am aware of having seen footage and reading material:

1. The '55 Lions had an astonishing backline - Morgan, O'Reilly, Davies, Butterfield and Griffiths has to be a set of the most talented footballers ever.

2. I never saw him, but to be first choice for the All Blacks and the best in the world at fly half at the age of 19 means that George Nepia would have to have been a prodigy unlike almost anything that exists in the modern game.

3. My friends in Bloemfontain swear on their heads that national bias nothwithstanding, the Boks of the late 30s and early 60s were as a collective the most complete sets of talent in the world. Practically unbeatable and largely unplayable.

It is interesting if you watch documentaries of past All Blacks coaches that the concensus is the only other nation that they can respect as much as their own is South Africa - the only side whose challenge has been consistent over the years and the team that they most fear. It's definitely a rugby nation that I would be interested in knowing more about because even with ready access to the Super Rugby footage now, we still have very little historical oversight as to the nation's history.

I try with my limited time to be a scholar of the game but similarly as you say opinions are subjective and based on a centre of consciousness and frame of reference peculiar only to the people making the statement. It's only the passage of time that renders games and players significant but I also accept that a lot of poeple don't need to know any more than it takes to follow their local team every Saturday.

Each to their own and best regards for 2013.

Hi,Geoge ,Nepia was Full Back,could play at 10/12 as most 15`s of the day could.The 10`s were Benny Osler,and Mark Nichols BOTH Tactical Genii,Nepia could do the attacking FB and Kick Goals too.
The AllBlacks post 1930 Lions side had there 2-3-2 Scrum outlawed the basis of there game.They adopted the Bok 3-4-1 Scrum without understanding the mechanics of it.
Because of this the 1935 -6 tour of the UK and the incoming Boks Tour were by there standards disasters.Lineouts could be replaced by Scrums under the laws of the Time.
I deliberately chose the time line at 1980 because it was the LAST real tour between the sides in the classical sense.Also that Lions Tours tho now an anachronism are no worse for that.
Colin Meads states in "Colin Meads -AllBlack"that having maybe 12 matches before the first Test.Means the touring side has no secrets left all there special ploys will have been noted.Also of course the softening up and spotting of key players was common practice by ALL teams of the pre 1980`speriod at least.
My antipathy of RWCs is well known and 3 AllBlack losses stick in my mind, 1995
were THE Best side in that RWC.BUT such was the fervor in SA during that period NO side but the Boks were going to win it.1999 when the match was won at half time,and lost at fulltime complacency cost them the game.Finally 2003 where Umaga tho fit was saved for the final,HE was the KEY mid field general.Arrrogance or ignorance by Mitchell ?
I have deliberately left the pro era aside because it is more a case of a SQUAD rather than a team.
As to THE Best in the PRO Era depends how you judge it on RWCs Australia then SA.
On Matches won /lost AllBlacks then the rest etc.

One thing I would add is that most Saffas have a greater appreciation of history than many of those in Europe.

Ask many saffas who the greatest boks are and you'll find perhaps Matfield and Joost in there from the pro era but otherwise it would be filled with greats from the past.

The problem we have is the significant change in the sport since it went pro and the advancements of sports science.
Players are bigger, taller, healthier and more schooled in technical analysis today. Perhaps slightly more robotic and less instinctive than before but the teams of today would smash those of before for the above reasons.

Try comparing Scott Hastings and Jamie Roberts for instance.... Scott Hastings was a brilliant defensive centre and for me easily superior to Roberts but man on man Roberts is a bigger beast and that sways many youngsters especially (In the >30 club myself).

It reminds me of Peter Schmeichel who once said the Man Utd team in 99 was easily better than the '68 EC winning side and that they'd beat them 10-0 if they played in 99. But take all the advancements away and obviously it would be a more level playing field.

Faoo19 my knowledge of rugby is based mostly on the NZvSA conflict as by the record they are the two most successful in the history of the game.
When i was working included were several SA born or SA fans so I had there ideas to balance my own.
It saddens me that there rivalry has been bedevilled by politics in both eras,as my SA friends in formed me.Unless you live in a country you have no real idea of that country.
As one whose interest through necessity waxed and waned over the years it seemed that.Although Bok and All Blacks had many Great Players it was the TEAMs you remembered.Whereas it was players rather than TEAMs in the NH you remembered.
The pro era changed everything,skills tend to be robotic instead of instinctive
fitness,means going flat out for 60 minutes then on comes the sub.
Stadia,grounds,equipment,Sports medicine,everything is changed how can you compare the feats of Don Clarke.For example Goals kicked from 70 metres ANY Ball,ANY Weather with a hole,a placer,or a wedge of earth in Bog standard boots.
With todays kickers ,often covered grounds,welltended,special boots,kicking tees,Plastic Coated balls no comparison.
You can only compare the sides and players in there eras and the laws of the time.The dropped goal was worth more than a try or penalty until late forties early fifties.etc.