The best 8

First topic message reminder :

so here we are, the group stages are done and we have the 1/4 final draw.

Harlequins v Munster
Clermont Auvergne v Montpellier
Toulon v Leicester
Saracens v Ulster

So congrats to the teams above but my question is simple...

are the 8 teams through to the knock out stages the best 8 in Europe at the moment? discuss!

MrsP wrote:He is indeed thought of fondly although I think he had a happier time as a player than as a coach, especially at the end of his time here.

He was the Captain of Ulster when we won the HEC although he was injured so couldn't play in the final.

He picked up the trophy with Davy Humphreys.

Wow I didn't know that.

Why did things go sour?

Ireland are fortunate to have two potential Irish coaches in the making - Mark Mccall and Conor O Shea.

Poorfour wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Glas I think most people would back Harlequins, but you should know by now never to write Munster off. They have got big results against much better teams than Harlequins when few expected to over the years. Personally I don't see it happening this time. Outside 10 I don't think Harlequins offer a great deal apart from Brown. I think their excellent backrow will help the pack dominate Munster.

Quins know better than to underestimate Munster, but essentially the same squads met two years ago at Thomond and since then I would say that Munster have begun to slip a little from their (very high) plateau whereas Quins are still improving.

Messrs Care, Botica, Turner-Hall, Lowe, Monye, and Williams might take issue with your view that the Quins backline don't have much to offer outside of Evans and Brown. The other thing to bear in mind is that in most positions Quins have a replacement who is really pushing the "first XV" player to start - Dickson, Botica, Smith, Casson [1], Hopper, Stegmann and Chisholm is a seriously good backline, especially considering it's a backup.

[1] You may not have heard of him, but he's seriously challenging JTH for a starting berth and his win/loss ratio is over 80%

None of those names, except Care who I included as I said outside 10, would strike fear into me. It's an effective backline no doubt but isn't going to strike fear into anyone the way say Toulon or Clermont are. At the same token if I was a Harlequins fan I wouldn't lose one wink of sleep at any of Munster's backline except Zebo but if you dominate up front as I suspect you will then he won't see much of the ball.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Glas I think most people would back Harlequins, but you should know by now never to write Munster off. They have got big results against much better teams than Harlequins when few expected to over the years. Personally I don't see it happening this time. Outside 10 I don't think Harlequins offer a great deal apart from Brown. I think their excellent backrow will help the pack dominate Munster.

Quins know better than to underestimate Munster, but essentially the same squads met two years ago at Thomond and since then I would say that Munster have begun to slip a little from their (very high) plateau whereas Quins are still improving.

Messrs Care, Botica, Turner-Hall, Lowe, Monye, and Williams might take issue with your view that the Quins backline don't have much to offer outside of Evans and Brown. The other thing to bear in mind is that in most positions Quins have a replacement who is really pushing the "first XV" player to start - Dickson, Botica, Smith, Casson [1], Hopper, Stegmann and Chisholm is a seriously good backline, especially considering it's a backup.

[1] You may not have heard of him, but he's seriously challenging JTH for a starting berth and his win/loss ratio is over 80%

None of those names, except Care who I included as I said outside 10, would strike fear into me. It's an effective backline no doubt but isn't going to strike fear into anyone the way say Toulon or Clermont are. At the same token if I was a Harlequins fan I wouldn't lose one wink of sleep at any of Munster's backline except Zebo but if you dominate up front as I suspect you will then he won't see much of the ball.

Do you fear any of the Sarries backline?

beshocked wrote:

MrsP wrote:He is indeed thought of fondly although I think he had a happier time as a player than as a coach, especially at the end of his time here.

He was the Captain of Ulster when we won the HEC although he was injured so couldn't play in the final.

He picked up the trophy with Davy Humphreys.

Wow I didn't know that.

Why did things go sour?

Ireland are fortunate to have two potential Irish coaches in the making - Mark Mccall and Conor O Shea.

Beshocked the whole place was a shambles. The province was badly run at the top and there were certain elements in the changing room that deeply divided the squad. If you want to know more start a thread for Ulster fans using these words, 'Dear Ulster fans, Neil Best. Discuss'. We lost Roger Wilson and Tommy Bowe at the end of that disasterous season as well and the atmosphere at the club had a major impact on that.

McCall won the Celtic League in 2006 and did as good a job after that as he could. I remember him very fondly as a player and a coach who was hard done by by senior players in the dressing room that fatally undermined him. Glad to see him doing a really good job at Saracans.

beshocked wrote: Do you fear any of the Sarries backline?

Not really. They remind me a little bit of ourselves in that the back three is pretty good, but if they don't get quality ball they won't be effective. Depends on the 10-12 combination. If you pick essentially two 10s for a kicking game I think our back three will really fancy their chances. The match will be settled up front. If we are still missing Muller, Ferris, Williams and Wilson I fear we will struggle and Saracens will dominate. Also, our lineout has been a shambles too often this season.

beshocked wrote:

MrsP wrote:He is indeed thought of fondly although I think he had a happier time as a player than as a coach, especially at the end of his time here.

He was the Captain of Ulster when we won the HEC although he was injured so couldn't play in the final.

He picked up the trophy with Davy Humphreys.

Wow I didn't know that.

Why did things go sour?

Ireland are fortunate to have two potential Irish coaches in the making - Mark Mccall and Conor O Shea.

Let's just say, McCall would be held in much, much higher esteem here than those who caused the problems. And I am probably under stating the scale of the difference.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

beshocked wrote: Do you fear any of the Sarries backline?

Not really. They remind me a little bit of ourselves in that the back three is pretty good, but if they don't get quality ball they won't be effective. Depends on the 10-12 combination. If you pick essentially two 10s for a kicking game I think our back three will really fancy their chances. The match will be settled up front. If we are still missing Muller, Ferris, Williams and Wilson I fear we will struggle and Saracens will dominate. Also, our lineout has been a shambles too often this season.

If you're lineout has been a shambles that's bad news because that's an area will Borthwick look to exploit if he's fit and available.

Fair points. Our backline isn't particularly scary.It's more structured and efficient than anything.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21141999

Looks like Ferris will be back.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16013_8319248,00.html

Muller too.

I don't expect Saracens to dominate. I am sure it will be a close tough match whoever plays from either side.

The quicker they realise Farrell is not a 13, the better.

just an update on Ulster Injuries for Sarries game

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2013/0122/1224329145742.html

There are doubts over Roger Wilson who left the action early at Castres after aggravating the hamstring injury which had badly delayed his return this season while Jared Payne is unlikely to be in action again until March due to a groin problem. Nick Williams is six weeks away from a possible return after damaging his medial ligament though there is better news regarding skipper Johann Muller, Luke Marshall and Dan Tuohy who should all be involved in Ulster’s next game, against the Ospreys, at Ravenhill on February 8th. Stephen Ferris is also expected to be back next month after ankle surgery. Tommy Bowe may not make the European quarter-final due to be played April 5th-7th

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:McCall won the Celtic League in 2006 and did as good a job after that as he could. I remember him very fondly as a player and a coach who was hard done by by senior players in the dressing room that fatally undermined him. Glad to see him doing a really good job at Saracans.

He also won the Celtic Cup as coach of Ulster so the most recent additions to the trophy cabinet were on his watch. McCall was a very gifted player, but had shortcomings as a coach. He cut his coaching teeth under Alan Solomons (echoes of Venter?) and was known as a technical expert, but when he was promoted to head coach things started to unravel. By all accounts he was too nice a guy to make tough decisions - probably made harder as he was coaching recent team mates. He couldn't manage the egos in the dressing room so lost credibility and had to go.

beshocked wrote:Question for Ulster fans: what's your perception of Mark Mccall? He is obviously Saracen's Director of Rugby now but he coached your team. According to wiki he won a Magner's League title.

Is he thought of fondly? Why did he leave?

Poorfour let's be honest it's not the most star studded backline but it's been very effective. Also Hookisms and Hyperbole rightly points out your most influential backline players are Evans and Browns.

Also these guys aren't getting picked by England. Would you say JTH,Lowe and Williams are being unfairly overlooked because personally I wouldn't.

H&H didn't say "Outside of Evans and Brown, Quins don't have a star-studded/international backline", he said "they don't have much". I was just pointing out that we do. Williams has probably missed any chance at international glory because of you-know-what, but I defy you to find a more alert or intelligent winger, especially in defence or on the counter-attack. JTH seems to have reached his level just shy of being international class (though he's still young and in the Saxons). Lowe is moving in the other direction - was in the midweek squad in SA and injured his ankle badly. He's back in the Saxons this time, though, and I think he's still under-rated by a lot of people (including Quins fans). Monye's just been called back into the full EPS, and Hopper's done time in the Saxons as well. They are actually exactly what you want in a club backline - a whole load of players who won't be called away for internationals but are very close to international class.

I think quite a few people (who clearly don't watch much of them) are underestimating Saracens and their style of play. Don't be deceived by them not crafting lots of beautiful tries, they are just quietly efficient and masters of simply preventing you from playing how you want to. They're not my favourite side, but after Clermont I think they're the next most difficult fixture. I'd be surprised if its not a Clermont v Saracens final.

Saracens play percentage rugby, a hugely intelligent side. Im increasingly impressed with their coaching and thinking, and the way they use on the field leaders with very specific duties.
Apparently Borthwick has taken a trip over to work with the Bulls coaches. I cant really say Ive seen them play, but do they fgo about their business in much the same way? Is this all a cross continent master game plan thats being developed?

I would expect Borthwick to become involved with coaching increasingly over the next few years, and one day to be involved at an international level. he was hopelessly limp at times as an England player, but as a thinker and organiser hes got a great reputation.

What is the crack with the SA link to Sarries? Is it the owner/financial backer?

Yes they are part owned by the same people who own the Bulls and took a lot of their players from their. They are closely linked and share a lot, including some of the Saracens wage bill if certain rumours are to be believed.

Ah ha!

I hadn't realised the link was just as firm as that.

Thanks PSW!

PSW also Borthwick is respected by most players.

MrsP to explain to you the situation - From about 1995 up to 2009 Nigel Wray with his buddy Nick Leslau used to be majority shareholders of Saracens (both English I should add).

In 2009 South African investors led by the Rupert Family - the 2nd richest group in South Africa became majority shareholders at Saracens with 51% (I think that's right). http://www.forbes.com/profile/johann-rupert/

Nigel Wray,Nick Leslau and another Englishman Dominic Silvester own the rest. I think. It gets a little confusing to be honest.

Nigel Wray is still the chairman but the board of directors is split with English and South Africans including Francois Pienaar.

Our CEO,Edward Griffiths is both English and South African.


Generally the South Africans stay behind the scenes. In my opinion they have been a beneficial influence. They have not enforced their will recently upon the club which they could do.

Most of the staff are English - e.g. Alex Sanderson,Kevin Sorrell,Paul Gustard though obviously Mccall and Venter still have significant influence.


There was of course controversy when the South Africans came in because they did basically decided to let half the squad go which of course caused resentment. Since then though things have settled down.

The reality is that Nigel Wray needed help because Saracens do lose a lot of money but with the financial muscle of the South Africans, Saracens are building a sustainable future in my opinion.

The fear of Saracens being a South African club has been reduced by Saracen's strong academy, the players Saracens are producing for England, no longer an interest in playing a game in SA,moving to Allianz Park, a reduction in the recruitment of South Africans.

Always liked McCall as a coach and not surpised he's gone on to good things.

Not sure what went on towards the end with Ulster but the team looked on the brink of big things after winning the league in 2005/2006.

Would it be fair to compare his case with Johnsons with England? i.e. was undermined by ex teammates and not supported from above...

And what is Venter doing now?

I saw him on the telly in the box with McCall at the weekend. Does he still have much input? What does he do when he is in SA? Has he returned to practising Medicine?

Martin Johnson was always the wrong selection for England simply because of his inexperience.

Admittedly he wasn't helped by his fellow coaches who were a quite poor bunch.

More often than not Johnson got it wrong sadly. Plus he was far too conservative.

Lancaster has taken risks like bringing in Launchbury and T.Youngs plus persisting with Farrell Jr,Barritt and moving Brown onto the wing.

MrsP wrote:And what is Venter doing now?

I saw him on the telly in the box with McCall at the weekend. Does he still have much input? What does he do when he is in SA? Has he returned to practising Medicine?

Venter is technical director so he still has an input. Particularly in the crunch games. I don't know what he gets up to in SA.

I am sure he still helps out but he's no longer the front man. Less controversy too unsurprisingly.

He does seem like quite a character alright. Coaching/directing from afar seems weird to me but it clearly works for you guys.

I wondered if he actually still did exactly the same job but they just made some excuse to get him out of the media spotlight. Does McCall make the decisions do you think? I know folk always ask the same thing about Davy H at Ulster. The TV guys even refer to him as our coach at times.

Interesting parallels all over the place in this one!

Our backs aren't star studded but we know how to use them very effectively IMO. Still, ad don't take this the wrong way Munster fans as I still your team spirit and experience makes you very dangerous, in a composite team I would only take Zebo and Ryan from the Munster side

The only thing that we lack in the backs is an out and out pace merchant with an eye for a gap, we have the smarts in Williams and commitment+pace in Monye but no one with the lethality of say Wade, May, Tait (in his pomp), Sinbad etc

It's noticeable that's he's taken a back seat in every way, especially involvement with the media. From what I gather the controversy and his anger issues / stress were affecting his private life and relations with his family. He took a decision that many don't to stellar hack, perhaps made easier by him still having another business interest to partly fall back on.
Elderly women in Leicester no longer have to watch their backs and the rfu can safely leave biscuits lying around. Everyone's a winner it seems

That's not how we play though- we don't go out wide, we mix up the point of attack. And OLH , chisholm and Mantella are young but have miles of pace

beshocked wrote:Martin Johnson was always the wrong selection for England simply because of his inexperience.

Admittedly he wasn't helped by his fellow coaches who were a quite poor bunch.

More often than not Johnson got it wrong sadly. Plus he was far too conservative.

Lancaster has taken risks like bringing in Launchbury and T.Youngs plus persisting with Farrell Jr,Barritt and moving Brown onto the wing.

Johnson also took risks in selection.

A conservative risk taker, I see

ChequeredJersey wrote:That's not how we play though- we don't go out wide, we mix up the point of attack. And OLH , chisholm and Mantella are young but have miles of pace

Yes but we do need the variety and perhaps a true one on one threat out wide would potentially mean more space in the centre as the defence drift to cover out wide. Even if we don't go wide there's still high balls and turn overs which that type of player could be effective in.

To be honest i'm totally wrong though as you've just named two players who fit the bill perfectly. I can't wait to see Chisholm back playing (was it March he's meant to be back?) and OLH is now looking like he's edging in to the 23.

Remember this try?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV0XrH6bCDY

I am still stunned at just how quick he is!

yappysnap wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:That's not how we play though- we don't go out wide, we mix up the point of attack. And OLH , chisholm and Mantella are young but have miles of pace

Yes but we do need the variety and perhaps a true one on one threat out wide would potentially mean more space in the centre as the defence drift to cover out wide. Even if we don't go wide there's still high balls and turn overs which that type of player could be effective in.

To be honest i'm totally wrong though as you've just named two players who fit the bill perfectly. I can't wait to see Chisholm back playing (was it March he's meant to be back?) and OLH is now looking like he's edging in to the 23.

Remember this try?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV0XrH6bCDY

I am still stunned at just how quick he is!

I can see Chis edging out one of Tom or Ugo once he' s fit, as he offers nearly all the pace of Wade combined with nearly all the strength and defensive ability of Brown. And in time there will be Charlie Walker, who makes even Ollie Lindsay-Hague look slow.

But to go back to H&H' s point, there may not be an individual you'd fear in that lot, but that' s not what you need to fear about Quins. What you need to fear about the backline is that by the time you've tackled them, the ball may well be with someone else and past your defensive line. Or the point of attack may not be a back at all, but Fa'asavalu, Easter, Johnston or Marler.

Glas a du wrote:A conservative risk taker, I see

Correct, same as Lancaster!

nathan wrote:

beshocked wrote:Martin Johnson was always the wrong selection for England simply because of his inexperience.

Admittedly he wasn't helped by his fellow coaches who were a quite poor bunch.

More often than not Johnson got it wrong sadly. Plus he was far too conservative.

Lancaster has taken risks like bringing in Launchbury and T.Youngs plus persisting with Farrell Jr,Barritt and moving Brown onto the wing.

Johnson also took risks in selection.

Actually you are correct. Unfortunately his "risks" were appalling decisions.

beshocked wrote:

nathan wrote:

beshocked wrote:Martin Johnson was always the wrong selection for England simply because of his inexperience.

Admittedly he wasn't helped by his fellow coaches who were a quite poor bunch.

More often than not Johnson got it wrong sadly. Plus he was far too conservative.

Lancaster has taken risks like bringing in Launchbury and T.Youngs plus persisting with Farrell Jr,Barritt and moving Brown onto the wing.

Johnson also took risks in selection.

Actually you are correct. Unfortunately his "risks" were appalling decisions.

That's not fair or right. He brought players like B Youngs, Ashton, Cole, Wood and Tuilagi into the side and was beginning to get some good results. Most of the weaker selection decisions were in positions where England still struggle to field an outstanding candidate (IC, for instance). The wheels only really came off when he went into his shell after the defeat in Dublin and started relying more on the Tindalls and Moodys rather than trusting the young guns to learn.

beshocked wrote:

nathan wrote:

beshocked wrote:Martin Johnson was always the wrong selection for England simply because of his inexperience.

Admittedly he wasn't helped by his fellow coaches who were a quite poor bunch.

More often than not Johnson got it wrong sadly. Plus he was far too conservative.

Lancaster has taken risks like bringing in Launchbury and T.Youngs plus persisting with Farrell Jr,Barritt and moving Brown onto the wing.

Johnson also took risks in selection.

Actually you are correct. Unfortunately his "risks" were appalling decisions.

True, he shouldve stuck by the reliable legend lewsey rather than pitching in with kids like Armitage and later Foden.

I presume you (PSW and Poorfour) happened to miss the RWC in 2011.

I meant risk like playing Monye at FB. Playing probably the worst halfback combo at the time - an out of form Youngs and Wilkinson together.

An ageing injury prone Moody. Over the hill Tindall. Continually picking Hape.

Sticking with over the hill Easter.

Picking Banahan at 12.

But Easter is the best 8 (on topic!) in England right now, not sure hes exactly over the hill

I would also point out that the only reason Youngs, Ashton and Foden got game time was because of injuries to the incumbent senior player in their position. The fans and press had been calling out for those guys for weeks/months before they were picked and gone with.

He also chose players like Fourie and Moody over Robshaw as another example of his fairly crap selections.

Hang on a minute wasnt he getting slagged for picking Youngs a second ago now he only picked Youngs by accident?

Banahan, Erinle, Hipkiss, May, Vesty, Borthwick and Andy Goode all got caps under Johnson as well.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Hang on a minute wasnt he getting slagged for picking Youngs a second ago now he only picked Youngs by accident?

If you choose to ignore the 18 months in between those incidents then yes.

Hmm... accidentally picks good players, then deliberately sticks with poor ones. Oh, Johnno. If only you'd done all your selections by the good old dartboard method, you'd still be in a job. Marc Lievremont could have shown you how.

PSW correction - Nick Easter is currently the best club no 8 in England. For England selection he's over the hill.

Time and again he's proven to not be up to scratch for England at no 8. To be fair maybe it's because in that position the cupboard was bare.

Talking about different times when picking Youngs. An in form confident Youngs is a good player like he was 2009/10.

A off form Youngs like he was in 2011 RWC and 2012 bar cameos when he came to life against basically beaten/tired opposition.

Poorfour that's hilarious.

Beshocked,

What is the crack with the venue for the quarter final?

When do you think they might let us know where it is going to be held?

Sorry MrsP I don't know.

The information we have is that Saracens want to play the game at Allianz Park. To do that they'll need to get permission from the Council I think to put in temporary seating to bring it up to 15,000 - the minimum amount of seating you need to play a HC quarter final.

If this fails in all likelihood the game will play at Twickenham.

I have heard that it's unlikely MK and Wembley will be used because they clash with footie games.

Toulon are looking at bigger grounds too

Don't know why Toulon would give up their home advantage.

Saracens giving up their's is understandable.

Is it true that Allianz is already mostly temporary seating at the moment?

Is that a short term thing or will Sarries make the capacity to 10,000 permanent seating in the long term.



Does any of that even make sense?

Toulon moving match seems short-sighted.
Sarries should just play at Wembley.

And finally can Quins put up temporary seats? Pretty sure capacity at Stoop is lower than 15k

Dates/Times announced for the QFs

Saturday, 6 April

ASM Clermont Auvergne v Montpellier, Stade Marcel Michelin, 16:40 BST

Saracens v Ulster, venue TBC, 18:30 BST

Sunday, 7 April

Harlequins v Munster, Twickenham Stoop, 14:00 BST

Toulon v Leicester Tigers, venue TBC, 17:30 BST

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21124597

How big is the Toulon home stadium? If they can move it to get more gate revenue it seems a good idea no?

yappysnap wrote:I would also point out that the only reason Youngs got game time was because of injuries to the incumbent senior player in their position.

While true about Foden, not true about Youngs. The incumbent, Care, was dropped to the bench to allow Youngs to make his debut in Australia at the end of his first season as a tigers starter.

As to Ashton - well his first season in the Premiership was, after his fun in the championship, a disater that saw Saints consign him to the A team. Ashton himself admitted his form was so poor that at the start of the 2009/10 season he was considering returning to RL. that he then played in the 6Ns is a sign of how much things changed.

Speculation is that Quins will put up a 200 person temporary stand. Capacity is 14,800 and something