The regions and how to bring in RGC1404?

First topic message reminder :

There was a WUM, on here about dropping to 3 regions, but I think it will sort of happen.

I think we agree that Wales should have 4 regions, and to introduce a fifth RGC1404, is unlikley as SRU, FIR, IRFU are unlikley to agree to a 13 team league, SRU and FIR would want a 3rd team before WRU enter a 5th, and its unsure if WRU could support 5 teams.

Therefore I believe that one of the existing regions will be closed or merged to create space for RCG1404.

The question is how best to implyment this change?

There was an article about how RCG1404 see themselves in the Pro 12 within 5 years, personally I think they should start the planning for this move now, intidcate whats going to happen and let people become accustomed to it, instead of just changing one summer, like the WRU are known to do.

For me I think the WRU should plan who the merger/defunt team will be now. If Scarlets/Ospreys merger, start intergrating Scarlets acamady with Ospreys, start planning if games will be between PYS and LS, will there be a relaunch etc etc, let the planning start now.
If a Dragons/Blues merger, same thing.

Personally I think it will be a Dragons Blues merger, what I would like to see though is the running of the region be slowly removed from Cardiff RFC and Newport RFC. Start building a team in RGC 1404 style, have the clubs that will make up this region (including Ponty), get together as in north Wales and agree on new teams relaunch, neutral colours, where games will be played etc etc, then start linking the acamadies, have the new team start playing games in the lower divisions, (acamady and fringe players). Have it all set up and ready so when RGC 1404 join the league, this other team enters at the same time, so Wales will still have 4 regions, but only 2 of the existing regions.

However I feel that the WRU will just one year go, we have revoked the licence of ...... (like the FIR did Aironi), and RCG1404 are getting it? and suffer a backlash.

How do you feel RCG1404 should be introduced?

I think we the people want the freedom to decide the fate of our regions, I believe our union ought to give less money to our regions and more money to our clubs. By dispersing the money back to our clubs, I believe our union puts important matters back in we the people's hands.

doctornickolas wrote:South East
Vale of Glamorgan
Cardiff
Newport
Monmouthshire

Mainclubs covered = Cardiff, Newport

Total population covered approx. 709,000


South West
Swansea
Neath Port Talbot
carmarthenshire
Pembrokeshire
ceredigion

Main clubs covered = Swansea, neath, Llanelli, Aberavon, Carmarthe Quins, Llandovery

Total Population = 761,000

Valleys and South Powys
Bridgend
RCT
Merthyr
Caerphilly
Torfaen
Blaenau Gwent

Main clubs covered = Bridgend, Pontypridd, Caerphilly, Ebbw Vale, Pontypool, Bedwas, Cross Keys

Total population = 772,000

North - RGC1404
Anglesey
Gwynedd
Conwy
denbighshire
Flintshire
Wrexham
North Powys

Main clubs covered = ???

Total population = 756,000


(polulation figures courtesy of Wikipedia)


This is what I would do with a complete new rebranding.

Every blade of grass in Wales is represented in this model as this is all the counties (unitary authorities) of Wales.

Also each 'region' has a population to cover of similar size.

Every region gets the same funding, no development region. Players play generally for their region of origin if possible. So North Wales would be able to call on the likes of James King, George North, McCusker,maybe Eiffion Roberts etc.

The development league is the league below that (club Premiership) with the clubs to take a much more active part and have closer links to their region.

Below that regional leagues. eg North Wales division1,2,3 etc. with promotion and relegation.

Each year at this level the winners of North, SE, SW and Valleys leagues division 1 will have semi finals and a final for the title of Welsh Amateur Champions.

And Casartelli looked upon the simplicity, synchronicity, togetherness and beauty of the model and wept.

For he knew that such a wondrous vision would be beyond the comprehension of the small minded philistines that ran the game in the land of Wales.

Casartelli wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:South East
Vale of Glamorgan
Cardiff
Newport
Monmouthshire

Mainclubs covered = Cardiff, Newport

Total population covered approx. 709,000


South West
Swansea
Neath Port Talbot
carmarthenshire
Pembrokeshire
ceredigion

Main clubs covered = Swansea, neath, Llanelli, Aberavon, Carmarthe Quins, Llandovery

Total Population = 761,000

Valleys and South Powys
Bridgend
RCT
Merthyr
Caerphilly
Torfaen
Blaenau Gwent

Main clubs covered = Bridgend, Pontypridd, Caerphilly, Ebbw Vale, Pontypool, Bedwas, Cross Keys

Total population = 772,000

North - RGC1404
Anglesey
Gwynedd
Conwy
denbighshire
Flintshire
Wrexham
North Powys

Main clubs covered = ???

Total population = 756,000


(polulation figures courtesy of Wikipedia)


This is what I would do with a complete new rebranding.

Every blade of grass in Wales is represented in this model as this is all the counties (unitary authorities) of Wales.

Also each 'region' has a population to cover of similar size.

Every region gets the same funding, no development region. Players play generally for their region of origin if possible. So North Wales would be able to call on the likes of James King, George North, McCusker,maybe Eiffion Roberts etc.

The development league is the league below that (club Premiership) with the clubs to take a much more active part and have closer links to their region.

Below that regional leagues. eg North Wales division1,2,3 etc. with promotion and relegation.

Each year at this level the winners of North, SE, SW and Valleys leagues division 1 will have semi finals and a final for the title of Welsh Amateur Champions.

And Casartelli looked upon the simplicity, synchronicity, togetherness and beauty of the model and wept.

For he knew that such a wondrous vision would be beyond the comprehension of the small minded philistines that ran the game in the land of Wales.

Its not the just the people who run the game cas, it is all the narrow minded supporters who believe that their clubs have a devine right to represent the region, Cardiff, Llanelli, Newport, Swansea and even Pontypridd, all the fans of these clubs think they should be "THE" region and not just a part of it.

"Its not the just the people who run the game cas, it is all the narrow minded supporters who believe that their clubs have a devine right to represent the region, Cardiff, Llanelli, Newport, Swansea and even Pontypridd, all the fans of these clubs think they should be "THE" region and not just a part of it."

There's not many left though, are there? If we had a decent union it would just steamroller them (they too must be bored with season after season of dross) and impose a proper regional structure. Those few fans that are rabidly committed to watching a city/town team could do so in the Prem.

But the WRU are as rudderless as everyone else in this mess, so nothing will change. Nice to dream for 5 mins though.

Quite contradictory for you to mention Swansea, Dowlais.

international197 wrote:I think we the people want the freedom to decide the fate of our regions, I believe our union ought to give less money to our regions and more money to our clubs. By dispersing the money back to our clubs, I believe our union puts important matters back in we the people's hands.

Barack Obama, is that you?

No it's Brynach O'r Bala, twice chaired, once crowned.

Risca Rev wrote:Quite contradictory for you to mention Swansea, Dowlais.

WHY ?

Kingshu wrote:You may say Draons have more potentional but

Regional Rugby Wales chief executive Stuart Gallacher
"I believe we need four [but] I'm not saying four equal. To have an area of Wales without a professional region is self defeating... but I think we can do it differently."

So it appears they one RGC in, but that they will only have 4 teams, so one of the current ones will lose out, (it may not be Dragons, but they do seam the most likily)

on the second point, about increasing funding to all but Dragons, to which you state its our money we'll sue.
The way that would work is of the £3.7 million the regions recieves £1.5 million is from WRU. Now if the WRU double this to £3 million per region, but keep Dragons at the seam current level, ans direct the extra £1.5 million towards RGC. (osprey/Scarlets/blues have £5.2 million each, Dragons £3.7 million and RGC £1.5 million, untill the RGC enter the pro 12 and recieve the full £5.2million)

While you don't like the Idea of a giant Blues/Newport/Ponty region, how would you go about getting them into the pro 12, but still only having 4 regions.

Maybe your right, 3 regions, RGC, a Newport/Blues/Ponty region, and Ospreys/Scarlets region, would that be th ebest for Welsh rugby, would people support it? but WRU and PWC both believe there should be 4 regions.

I'm sorry, but who put the carpet salesman in charge here? Do RRW even still exist with the new PRGB being set up?

The 'extra' funding is contractual based on the participation agreement, so no they can't touch it for at least another season. Plus if RGC did sign one they'd be shafted as much as the others, denuded of their assets and restricted in their growth.

I have to ask, but what is all this malarky I keep hearing about being denied there assets and not being allowed to grow as a business ? I have mentioned this earlier on in the thread, if the regions are making more money than what the WRU are giving them back then the regions would be better off without the WRU, also if the WRU are taking money off the regions then there would be one hell of a court case here. Something does not sit right here, and all I am reading is, if we do not get more money then I will not support Wales. Surely if the regions made more money themselves they would not be in this position, also are the WRU really holding back money that the regions are earning outright ? It would be in the best interest of the WRU to let the regions grow as a business so why would they try and prevent this from happening ?

LordDowlais wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:South East
Vale of Glamorgan
Cardiff
Newport
Monmouthshire

Mainclubs covered = Cardiff, Newport

Total population covered approx. 709,000


South West
Swansea
Neath Port Talbot
carmarthenshire
Pembrokeshire
ceredigion

Main clubs covered = Swansea, neath, Llanelli, Aberavon, Carmarthe Quins, Llandovery

Total Population = 761,000

Valleys and South Powys
Bridgend
RCT
Merthyr
Caerphilly
Torfaen
Blaenau Gwent

Main clubs covered = Bridgend, Pontypridd, Caerphilly, Ebbw Vale, Pontypool, Bedwas, Cross Keys

Total population = 772,000

North - RGC1404
Anglesey
Gwynedd
Conwy
denbighshire
Flintshire
Wrexham
North Powys

Main clubs covered = ???

Total population = 756,000


(polulation figures courtesy of Wikipedia)


This is what I would do with a complete new rebranding.

Every blade of grass in Wales is represented in this model as this is all the counties (unitary authorities) of Wales.

Also each 'region' has a population to cover of similar size.

Every region gets the same funding, no development region. Players play generally for their region of origin if possible. So North Wales would be able to call on the likes of James King, George North, McCusker,maybe Eiffion Roberts etc.

The development league is the league below that (club Premiership) with the clubs to take a much more active part and have closer links to their region.

Below that regional leagues. eg North Wales division1,2,3 etc. with promotion and relegation.

Each year at this level the winners of North, SE, SW and Valleys leagues division 1 will have semi finals and a final for the title of Welsh Amateur Champions.

And Casartelli looked upon the simplicity, synchronicity, togetherness and beauty of the model and wept.

For he knew that such a wondrous vision would be beyond the comprehension of the small minded philistines that ran the game in the land of Wales.

Its not the just the people who run the game cas, it is all the narrow minded supporters who believe that their clubs have a devine right to represent the region, Cardiff, Llanelli, Newport, Swansea and even Pontypridd, all the fans of these clubs think they should be "THE" region and not just a part of it.

god damn these tin pot local business men and their willingness to subsidise Welsh rugby for the last ten years. We'd be so much better off without them and their rugby supporters. I only wish there was a region some of the disenfranchised clubs that remained so blameless in the regional process, like say Ebbw Vale, could take a stake in and show them how it should be done.

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:South East
Vale of Glamorgan
Cardiff
Newport
Monmouthshire

Mainclubs covered = Cardiff, Newport

Total population covered approx. 709,000


South West
Swansea
Neath Port Talbot
carmarthenshire
Pembrokeshire
ceredigion

Main clubs covered = Swansea, neath, Llanelli, Aberavon, Carmarthe Quins, Llandovery

Total Population = 761,000

Valleys and South Powys
Bridgend
RCT
Merthyr
Caerphilly
Torfaen
Blaenau Gwent

Main clubs covered = Bridgend, Pontypridd, Caerphilly, Ebbw Vale, Pontypool, Bedwas, Cross Keys

Total population = 772,000

North - RGC1404
Anglesey
Gwynedd
Conwy
denbighshire
Flintshire
Wrexham
North Powys

Main clubs covered = ???

Total population = 756,000


(polulation figures courtesy of Wikipedia)


This is what I would do with a complete new rebranding.

Every blade of grass in Wales is represented in this model as this is all the counties (unitary authorities) of Wales.

Also each 'region' has a population to cover of similar size.

Every region gets the same funding, no development region. Players play generally for their region of origin if possible. So North Wales would be able to call on the likes of James King, George North, McCusker,maybe Eiffion Roberts etc.

The development league is the league below that (club Premiership) with the clubs to take a much more active part and have closer links to their region.

Below that regional leagues. eg North Wales division1,2,3 etc. with promotion and relegation.

Each year at this level the winners of North, SE, SW and Valleys leagues division 1 will have semi finals and a final for the title of Welsh Amateur Champions.

And Casartelli looked upon the simplicity, synchronicity, togetherness and beauty of the model and wept.

For he knew that such a wondrous vision would be beyond the comprehension of the small minded philistines that ran the game in the land of Wales.

Its not the just the people who run the game cas, it is all the narrow minded supporters who believe that their clubs have a devine right to represent the region, Cardiff, Llanelli, Newport, Swansea and even Pontypridd, all the fans of these clubs think they should be "THE" region and not just a part of it.

god damn these tin pot local business men and their willingness to subsidise Welsh rugby for the last ten years. We'd be so much better off without them and their rugby supporters. I only wish there was a region some of the disenfranchised clubs that remained so blameless in the regional process, like say Ebbw Vale, could take a stake in and show them how it should be done.

Would you support an East Wales region that combined Cardiff and Newport then Stone ?

LordDowlais wrote:I have to ask, but what is all this malarky I keep hearing about being denied there assets and not being allowed to grow as a business ? I have mentioned this earlier on in the thread, if the regions are making more money than what the WRU are giving them back then the regions would be better off without the WRU, also if the WRU are taking money off the regions then there would be one hell of a court case here. Something does not sit right here, and all I am reading is, if we do not get more money then I will not support Wales. Surely if the regions made more money themselves they would not be in this position, also are the WRU really holding back money that the regions are earning outright ? It would be in the best interest of the WRU to let the regions grow as a business so why would they try and prevent this from happening ?

Nobody really knows what happens to all the money - and why. For a relatively small business (turnover of £60m is fairly modest in the grand scheme of things - comparable to a single medium/large supermarket store) the WRU's finances are very murky. Even when they get an independent auditor they suppress the findings of the review. The volume of cash diverted to Barclays in the last couple of years is massively disproportionate.

Hence rumours and pub-talk prevail, which doesn't help anyone and makes the WRU look very amateur.

Casartelli wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:South East
Vale of Glamorgan
Cardiff
Newport
Monmouthshire

Mainclubs covered = Cardiff, Newport

Total population covered approx. 709,000


South West
Swansea
Neath Port Talbot
carmarthenshire
Pembrokeshire
ceredigion

Main clubs covered = Swansea, neath, Llanelli, Aberavon, Carmarthe Quins, Llandovery

Total Population = 761,000

Valleys and South Powys
Bridgend
RCT
Merthyr
Caerphilly
Torfaen
Blaenau Gwent

Main clubs covered = Bridgend, Pontypridd, Caerphilly, Ebbw Vale, Pontypool, Bedwas, Cross Keys

Total population = 772,000

North - RGC1404
Anglesey
Gwynedd
Conwy
denbighshire
Flintshire
Wrexham
North Powys

Main clubs covered = ???

Total population = 756,000


(polulation figures courtesy of Wikipedia)


This is what I would do with a complete new rebranding.

Every blade of grass in Wales is represented in this model as this is all the counties (unitary authorities) of Wales.

Also each 'region' has a population to cover of similar size.

Every region gets the same funding, no development region. Players play generally for their region of origin if possible. So North Wales would be able to call on the likes of James King, George North, McCusker,maybe Eiffion Roberts etc.

The development league is the league below that (club Premiership) with the clubs to take a much more active part and have closer links to their region.

Below that regional leagues. eg North Wales division1,2,3 etc. with promotion and relegation.

Each year at this level the winners of North, SE, SW and Valleys leagues division 1 will have semi finals and a final for the title of Welsh Amateur Champions.

And Casartelli looked upon the simplicity, synchronicity, togetherness and beauty of the model and wept.

For he knew that such a wondrous vision would be beyond the comprehension of the small minded philistines that ran the game in the land of Wales.

prob the best I have ever seen out lined for Wales, ever. Doc NiC take a bow.

Now RGC would just need the borders defined, but what about the rest, could it ever be brought in.

The South West region looks like it would be very strong.

Now RGC would just need the borders defined

Gwynedd

Spoiler:

Clwyd

Spoiler:

and Montgomeryshire

Spoiler:

I'd also suggest

Radnorshire

Spoiler:

and Ceredigion

Spoiler:

Leaving Brecknock for the Valleys

Spoiler:

LordDowlais wrote:

Would you support an East Wales region that combined Cardiff and Newport then Stone ?

Two different questions there. Would I support an East Wales region? Already said yes to this. Is a merger between Cardiff and Newport a good idea? No it's preposterous. Dr Nick's plan is all well and good but anyone who thinks it's about making sure everyone has an equal population catchment will sort it out it having a laugh. Population is a functional measure not a quantity.

He has a point. In Ireland you know where the borders between the Provinces are and which you come from. They are not split up to balance population numbers. Also if a person moves to another Province they may support their new Province or they may stay loyal to their own. Largely however the vast majority of people in the Province will support the Province.

If we loook at the plan:

South East
Vale of Glamorgan
Cardiff
Newport
Monmouthshire

Blues and Dragons fans.

South West
Swansea
Neath Port Talbot
carmarthenshire
Pembrokeshire
ceredigion

Scarlets and Ospreys

Valleys and South Powys
Bridgend
RCT
Merthyr
Caerphilly
Torfaen
Blaenau Gwent

Ospreys and Dragons.

North - RGC1404
Anglesey
Gwynedd
Conwy
denbighshire
Flintshire
Wrexham
North Powys

Blues and Scarlets fans.

Last time a big slice of fans fell into the cracks, if you did this you wwould lose more than you gain.

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Would you support an East Wales region that combined Cardiff and Newport then Stone ?

Two different questions there. Would I support an East Wales region? Already said yes to this. Is a merger between Cardiff and Newport a good idea? No it's preposterous. Dr Nick's plan is all well and good but anyone who thinks it's about making sure everyone has an equal population catchment will sort it out it having a laugh. Population is a functional measure not a quantity.

Unfortunately the idea that Cardiff or Newport (or Scarlets or Ospreys now, for that matter) will ever do well in Europe is also preposterous. It's not about looking back, it should be about where we are now (close to rock bottom, regions wise) and how we take it forward. The current model has had a decade, and pretty much failed (I know the Ospreys have had occasional success, but with the squad they had they should have made 3 HC finals).

Merging Cardiff & Newport (or Swansea and Llanelli) doesn't come into it - it would be about creating new teams representing regions of Wales. There may be a few 'Newport' fans who wouldn't like taking the train to see East Wales playing Toulon or Leicester in Cardiff, even if there were half a dozen Newport boys in the team, but I don't believe the numbers are significant. And most would soon change their minds if the rugby was good.

Ah so you do get it then. This business about including people and playing a game or two on every cabbage patch in Wales is irrelevant. If the regions were successful no one would give a monkeys. Unfortunately they haven't had ten years to build that success, they've had ten years of pandering to the WRU autocracy. Fix the system and watch them fly.

Well, if you want to win in Europe then merge the Ospreys and Scarlets, kill off the Dragons, have the Blues as a capital club and the "rest" playing out of the Liberty. Set up two development regions in Pontypridd and Eirias, get them into the Principality Premiership and being the sole representatives in the the B & I cup and Amlin. Give Premiership players game time with London Welsh. In time try to get the Valleys and North into the Rabo.

Also, the model doesn't take into account population densities, relative income, investment potential, existing infrastructure and travel times. Set up new entities all you want but unless you are looking at these real issues it doesn't matter how new and shiny and inclusive they are, they are doomed to failure even before we get round to the union interference.

Glas a du wrote:Well, if you want to win in Europe then merge the Ospreys and Scarlets, kill off the Dragons, have the Blues as a capital club and the "rest" playing out of the Liberty. Set up two development regions in Pontypridd and Eirias, get them into the Principality Premiership and being the sole representatives in the the B & I cup and Amlin. Give Premiership players game time with London Welsh. In time try to get the Valleys and North into the Rabo.

Sorry but how does this remotely guarantee Euro Cup success?

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Would you support an East Wales region that combined Cardiff and Newport then Stone ?

Two different questions there. Would I support an East Wales region? Already said yes to this. Is a merger between Cardiff and Newport a good idea? No it's preposterous. Dr Nick's plan is all well and good but anyone who thinks it's about making sure everyone has an equal population catchment will sort it out it having a laugh. Population is a functional measure not a quantity.

So what are you saying here ? You would support an East Wales "region", but you would not support a Cardiff and Newport region. Well guess what, that is what the East Wales region would be, as both Cardiff and Newport are in the east of Wales. Casartelli is right in what he is saying, the regions have had 10 years now and apart from the Blues winning the Amlin they have achieved bugger all, especially the Dragons, I know you are going to harp on about money again, but all the regions have the same funding off the WRU so if the Dragons or any other region want more money, then they should try and earn it themselves. Or do you just want an East Wales region based in Newport ? Because if you do, guess what, you already have that and it is failing miserably.

Because you would concentrate the better players from the four regions into two super teams and the journeymen and also rans would be used to keep Pontypridd and the North quiet, but would also be available at close hand for call ups to shore up the big 2's squads later on in the competition. You could pay the Wales team players to stay in Wales and tempt those in England and France back. Boxing day each year would be a sell out at the MS.

The problem i have with the model (that I certainly/probably wouldn't have at inception) is that asking 2 regions to merge now will upset, and alienate the smaller of each region ala Ponty after the Warriors disband.

Ie the South East region would see it based in Cardiff essentially, most Dragons fans would stay away and when Rodney is used it will be boycotted/have a very poor turnout.

First problem will be emblem/colour, if you use the Dragon tail (best emblem of the 4 IMHO) the Blues fans will not be happy, if they play in blue Dragons fans won't be happy.
Then your talking ownership, how will Hazell, Thomas and tyhe WRU get on with it???!!!
Not to mention grounds, someone will win the power struggle and the bigger games played in one ground (likely the Arms park) and the lesser played elsewhere.

IMHO the proposal put in above may have just worked 10 years ago, but now would create another 2 Ponty/valleys situations in Newport and Llaneli at least!!

= more cracks = more fallen = death of Welsh rugby!!!

Lord

No offence but you need to be a touch more open minded, like the WRU telling people it's my way or the high way isn't going to help. You can't dictate how Stone feels!!!

Glas a du wrote:Because you would concentrate the better players from the four regions into two super teams and the journeymen and also rans would be used to keep Pontypridd and the North quiet, but would also be available at close hand for call ups to shore up the big 2's squads later on in the competition. You could pay the Wales team players to stay in Wales and tempt those in England and France back. Boxing day each year would be a sell out at the MS.

Glas are you suggesting this? Another condensement of player pool??? WTF

The only reason the regions proved competitive for a few seasons was because they all inherited super squads, now the supersquads have moved on the number of quality kids who have come through has proved far less in number than the WRU predicted, infact big surprise a region has produced the same number of quality players that a club did, we need to open the elite junior game up to more participants not keep condensing every 10 years until Team Wales is a team in the Aviva Prem!!!

Stone Motif wrote:Also, the model doesn't take into account population densities, relative income, investment potential, existing infrastructure and travel times. Set up new entities all you want but unless you are looking at these real issues it doesn't matter how new and shiny and inclusive they are, they are doomed to failure even before we get round to the union interference.

Blimey give us a chance Stone Motif, I haven't written a full report on the matter. PWC did that. If someone pays me enough I will look in to it. I just knoocked up an alternative in 15 mins.

I tell you what though my report wouldn't take 9 months and come up with bugger all at the end of it.

But that's the point though isn't it Bluesman? European success would be lovely and everything, but if you want it, the current set up aint going to get it for you. So if you decide that is your priority, then fair enough, you need radical change.

If however, Wales winning is your priority, then the current system 'warts and all' has to be the basis. Change is needed and would help, but would not be a fundemental change, more finetuning.

And, well spotted by the way, the above was very tongue in cheek!

Are trhe regions failings and the relative success (WC semi whilst avoiding the tri nations teams and losing to all 3) mutually exclusive to the system though, or more a product of Wales finally entering the professional era and that showing the quality that wales could produce on a regular basis.

The way I see it professionalism (not in all forms however) came hand in hand with the regional model, was it because of the regional model or just coincided with it? I don't know, but knowing the WRU I know which way I am leaning

Would the Wales team have been any different if...

The prem and clubs had become fully professional with properly run academies? I'd say we would have far more depth than we have now!

The regional model stuck with the prems amateur attempts at player production? I'd say we would have a slightly weaker Wales first team!

My points are, that Wales club/regional game does not have to dictate an academy set up in which the Team Wales brand produces quality, the WRU have shown a clear bias to Team Wales by condensing the game to 4 and the academy structure to 4 (4.5 if you include RGC)

I'm not saying the club game HAS to return, I'm not saying we MUST stick with what we have, I'm not saying we MUSTN'T go to 1 Team Wales played in the Aviva prem, but I AM saying that if we want a sustainable model that produces enough quality players to be competitive on botht the club and national level we NEED more Academy structures, we NEED to introduce more players to elite rugby and we NEED the professional rugby player dream alive to much more juniors than is possible now!!!

I'd like to take the Williams brothers as an example (blues/bryn moors boys) Now I'm not saying they don't deserve to be pro's, I'm not saying they won't be good players (that remains to be seen) but I am saying that Ive heard grumblings about their selections at junior level. They were exposed to elite rugby from the age of 10/11 I believe, they followed the old district system through to 15, played Dewar shield then went into the Academy system.

IMHO and I like to think I know a bit about skill aqcuisition and physiological development for every academy player there are at least 6 more prospects who could do similar/better given the same exposure throughout their junior career!!! I know it's a wild claim, and cannot be proven, but I would bet my mortgage on me being able to produce an academy team of rejected juniors exposed to exactly the same as the chosen few and I could produce the same % of turnover to pro's or better!!!

Sorry for the rant, and I know I go off topic but it's an area that I think we are struggling at and is effecting our whole outlook on the game.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Lord

No offence but you need to be a touch more open minded, like the WRU telling people it's my way or the high way isn't going to help. You can't dictate how Stone feels!!!

I am not trying to dictate how Stone feels, in fact I am trying to understand how he feels, because all I am seeing is tantrums because he reckons that the regions are not getting enough money off the WRU. The thing is I reckon that the WRU give out enough money, and if in ten years the regions cannot produce enough money how are they going to do any better in the future ? All this nonsence about not supporting your country because they are feeling screwed over is the exact same feeling why certain fans do not follow the regions yet all the valley fans and the North Wales fans are just told to get on with it. The regions as they stand are clearly not working, some are working better than others but as a whole they are just not working, we tried it this way and something has to change, weather that be restructuring the regions or disbanding them altogether, I do not know, but crying for more money off the WRU will not change the fact that as a business the regions are not doing enough to help themselves.

If you put 3-4 quality SH players into the regions like the Irish provinces and english clubs do then they would all perform far better - We just recruit SH rabble whilst the Irish provinces can call on the likes of Nick Williams, Ruan Piennar, and John Afoa. Mixing these quality pros with our developing and seasoned international players would bring success as it did for the Ospreys and the Blues to some extent when Rush was at his peek. Secondly our coaching in Wales is bereft of quality and again I would advocate the likes of Michael Chieka and John Kirwan if we are to seriously address some of our failings. It will cost a few quid but it will put bums back on seats and make our regions very competitive. These 2 reasons are why the provinces do so well in europe yet fail on the international stage. Maybe the regions need to have a chat to Huw Jenkins about how to recruit staff and get the most out of what you have got. He remains an absolute beacon in this area.

Sorry - had to go and do some work. What have I missed...right...

Essentially, you could quadruple the budget of the regions and it would make no difference. They'd squander it. The benefactor 'moneymen' want star players. Like when Cardiff were flush with cash and they spent it on Rush, Blair, Spice etc when they had players in the front five that would struggle to get a game in League 5 South East. Ospreys and Scarlets wre almost as bad.

Until the regional game becomes one step down from the national team, run by the WRU (god help us, but it would still be an improvement) rather than one step up from the clubs, then things will stay as they are.

And, we can all enjoy another 10 years of the same debate. Over and over. And over again.

LordDowlais wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Lord

No offence but you need to be a touch more open minded, like the WRU telling people it's my way or the high way isn't going to help. You can't dictate how Stone feels!!!

I am not trying to dictate how Stone feels, in fact I am trying to understand how he feels, because all I am seeing is tantrums because he reckons that the regions are not getting enough money off the WRU. The thing is I reckon that the WRU give out enough money, and if in ten years the regions cannot produce enough money how are they going to do any better in the future ? All this nonsence about not supporting your country because they are feeling screwed over is the exact same feeling why certain fans do not follow the regions yet all the valley fans and the North Wales fans are just told to get on with it. The regions as they stand are clearly not working, some are working better than others but as a whole they are just not working, we tried it this way and something has to change, weather that be restructuring the regions or disbanding them altogether, I do not know, but crying for more money off the WRU will not change the fact that as a business the regions are not doing enough to help themselves.

if you want to understand how I feel you need to do a bit of research into the running of the game rather than making pie in the sky suppositions all the time. At the risk of wasting my time, here are a few facts. The WRU don't give out enough money. They give out fork all. The redistribute the money earned by the regions via the tv contract, and top that up with a pittance that prevents the regions from making the best use of their assets. Even if they did 'give this out', which they don't, it is still far less than any other 6n country funds their pro teams. The WRU also signed us up to a joke league and sold the tv rights off well below what they could have got for them. Being as you made the leap of logic to realise they can't succeed in this environment, created by the WRU to furnish a debt repayment rate on the Stadium far and above what is necessary, I fail to see how you can either suggest the regions are at fault for not making money of their own (at least two are expected to post at least a small profit despite the union mismanagement), or how you suggest a new region would flourish in such an environment, especially one with less fans able to pay, businesses able to invest, adequate playing facilities, etc. The conditions simply don't exist for them to become sustainable, and as a result even surviving the last ten years can be regarded as an achievement, especially as one couldn't even survive a season.

As for your other point. I said I would support East Wales. By that I meant a region covering Glamorgan and Gwent. That is hardly a Newport/Cardiff merger, even if it would bring together the two parties that have proved willing to put their money where their mouth is as far as pro rugby is concerned. I wouldn't support a merger as I don't live in Newport and support the team that represents Newport and Gwent, the Dragons. I hope that clarifies a few things for you.

Casartelli wrote:Sorry - had to go and do some work. What have I missed...right...

Essentially, you could quadruple the budget of the regions and it would make no difference. They'd squander it. The benefactor 'moneymen' want star players. Like when Cardiff were flush with cash and they spent it on Rush, Blair, Spice etc when they had players in the front five that would struggle to get a game in League 5 South East. Ospreys and Scarlets wre almost as bad.

Until the regional game becomes one step down from the national team, run by the WRU (god help us, but it would still be an improvement) rather than one step up from the clubs, then things will stay as they are.

And, we can all enjoy another 10 years of the same debate. Over and over. And over again.

Wow. Maybe if you hadn't spent the last ten years finding ways to re-write the same post, that didn't make sense in the first place, you'd be one of the 'tin pot local businessmen' who owns say majority shares in a multi million pound business. Then you could show us all how it's done. You do realise these guys spend more money on the inflated wages of Welsh players and in at least one region around four times what the union puts into their regional academy, do you? Wood/trees, Cas...

I think it's too early to discuss RGC1404 entering the Pro12. I think we should wait until the end of the season, when we know where they've finished in the SWALEC Cup and Division 1 SE. Even if they get promoted, they will be tested by a higher standard of rugby next season which will challenge them further. I believe they have a long journey to enter the Pro12, and this season I think they need not look further than winning Division 1 SE, which, if they do, would clearly place them a step nearer to, albeit still far from, professional rugby.

Ystrad Rhondda are above them in Division 1 SE, so it's plain that they may not get promoted this season. However, they've got a lot of home games to finish the season, and even if they don't get promoted this season, they have more chances in future seasons.

I think they've got more funding from the WRU, than the other teams in the same league, and probably other teams in leagues above them, which gives them a hidden advantage.

Stone Motif wrote:

Casartelli wrote:Sorry - had to go and do some work. What have I missed...right...

Essentially, you could quadruple the budget of the regions and it would make no difference. They'd squander it. The benefactor 'moneymen' want star players. Like when Cardiff were flush with cash and they spent it on Rush, Blair, Spice etc when they had players in the front five that would struggle to get a game in League 5 South East. Ospreys and Scarlets wre almost as bad.

Until the regional game becomes one step down from the national team, run by the WRU (god help us, but it would still be an improvement) rather than one step up from the clubs, then things will stay as they are.

And, we can all enjoy another 10 years of the same debate. Over and over. And over again.

Wow. Maybe if you hadn't spent the last ten years finding ways to re-write the same post, that didn't make sense in the first place, you'd be one of the 'tin pot local businessmen' who owns say majority shares in a multi million pound business. Then you could show us all how it's done. You do realise these guys spend more money on the inflated wages of Welsh players and in at least one region around four times what the union puts into their regional academy, do you? Wood/trees, Cas...

That one doesn't make any sense, Stone, but some of your earlier posts were quite good.

Essentially we've wound up in a position where we have a clueless union still fighting with a dismal band of halfway-house regions/superclubs.

This entire house of cards is built on;

- Gatland being a good, if unimaginative, coach.
- tickets to the majority of internationals still selling well.
- Ospreys successes in a mickey-mouse league.
- A core of 8-10 genuine world class test players.

Which is worrying.

I see the pro 12 being refered to a mickey-mouse league, and a joke league here.

Here in Ireland it is considered a good league, we add 3 of the best teams in Europe to it and follow them, I wonder if a region was one of the best teams in Europe, and doing well in the league, would fans of that region still think it as a joke league?

If Welsh fans shed the false image of it being a joke league then they may be able to encourage more people to attend.

I feel that the Welsh always wanted to get into bed with the English and were never happy playing with the Celtic cousins, and I feel that if the H-cup breaks up, the Welsh may attemp to jump ship into the Aviva, if the RFU allow them.

Kingshu wrote:I see the pro 12 being refered to a mickey-mouse league, and a joke league here.

Here in Ireland it is considered a good league, we add 3 of the best teams in Europe to it and follow them, I wonder if a region was one of the best teams in Europe, and doing well in the league, would fans of that region still think it as a joke league?

If Welsh fans shed the false image of it being a joke league then they may be able to encourage more people to attend.

I feel that the Welsh always wanted to get into bed with the English and were never happy playing with the Celtic cousins, and I feel that if the H-cup breaks up, the Welsh may attemp to jump ship into the Aviva, if the RFU allow them.

I'm a Welsh fan and I think the Pro12 is a good league, I don't think jumping into the Aviva would be good for Welsh rugby.

It's a different debate but what spoils the Rabo is the number of games that are played between weakened teams (for various reasons). Doesn't happen as much (at all?) in French and English leagues (granted, they have a lot of strength in depth).

The Pro12 is an awful league:
1 no travelling support except Derbies
2 no feeling that matches mean anything except derbies
3 poor refereeing standards
4 very cynical outlook generally, coaches are about stopping play not creativity
5 too many international players missing from games except derbies
6 no history or tradition. I understand you can't manufacture this, but you can sow the seeds. This is NOT happening.
7 stupid kick off times.
8 terrible TV deals
9 leagues within a league, nobody interested if the teams of other nations are playing each other
10 generally mediocre product

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Lord

No offence but you need to be a touch more open minded, like the WRU telling people it's my way or the high way isn't going to help. You can't dictate how Stone feels!!!

I am not trying to dictate how Stone feels, in fact I am trying to understand how he feels, because all I am seeing is tantrums because he reckons that the regions are not getting enough money off the WRU. The thing is I reckon that the WRU give out enough money, and if in ten years the regions cannot produce enough money how are they going to do any better in the future ? All this nonsence about not supporting your country because they are feeling screwed over is the exact same feeling why certain fans do not follow the regions yet all the valley fans and the North Wales fans are just told to get on with it. The regions as they stand are clearly not working, some are working better than others but as a whole they are just not working, we tried it this way and something has to change, weather that be restructuring the regions or disbanding them altogether, I do not know, but crying for more money off the WRU will not change the fact that as a business the regions are not doing enough to help themselves.

if you want to understand how I feel you need to do a bit of research into the running of the game rather than making pie in the sky suppositions all the time. At the risk of wasting my time, here are a few facts. The WRU don't give out enough money. They give out fork all. The redistribute the money earned by the regions via the tv contract, and top that up with a pittance that prevents the regions from making the best use of their assets. Even if they did 'give this out', which they don't, it is still far less than any other 6n country funds their pro teams. The WRU also signed us up to a joke league and sold the tv rights off well below what they could have got for them. Being as you made the leap of logic to realise they can't succeed in this environment, created by the WRU to furnish a debt repayment rate on the Stadium far and above what is necessary, I fail to see how you can either suggest the regions are at fault for not making money of their own (at least two are expected to post at least a small profit despite the union mismanagement), or how you suggest a new region would flourish in such an environment, especially one with less fans able to pay, businesses able to invest, adequate playing facilities, etc. The conditions simply don't exist for them to become sustainable, and as a result even surviving the last ten years can be regarded as an achievement, especially as one couldn't even survive a season.

As for your other point. I said I would support East Wales. By that I meant a region covering Glamorgan and Gwent. That is hardly a Newport/Cardiff merger, even if it would bring together the two parties that have proved willing to put their money where their mouth is as far as pro rugby is concerned. I wouldn't support a merger as I don't live in Newport and support the team that represents Newport and Gwent, the Dragons. I hope that clarifies a few things for you.

Wow, what a very weird post, you have contradicted yourself about three or four times with this reply. Firstly you go on about tele money, right fair enough, how much tele money do the Dragons earn compared with the other regions ? Playing in the Amlin does not generate as much money as playing in the HC, so they share the money out evenly to all the regions, so in an around about way the other three regions are funding the Dragons, secondly the other leagues do not fund all the teams more, they give out the tv rights between the clubs/provinces equally and in England only the teams that provide players to the EPS get more money, in Ireland they have central contracts, the regions did not want this in Wales, I wonder why ? You say that the WRU does not want to let the regions grow, yet the Scarlets have a shiny new state of the art stadium and the Dragons have built a nice new shiny stand. All I am seeing here are big baby's crying for more money, and if you do not get it you will have a tantrum and will not go and watch Wales. As for your statement about putting their money where their mouth is, this was only because they threatened an already bankrupt WRU with legal action if they could not keep their teams/clubs at the top table, which was one of the biggest issues back then, to many "money men" with to much influence, so I for one am glad to see the WRU taking a no nonsence approach with the regions, at least it show they have some balls.

Casartelli wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:South East
Vale of Glamorgan
Cardiff
Newport
Monmouthshire

Mainclubs covered = Cardiff, Newport

Total population covered approx. 709,000


South West
Swansea
Neath Port Talbot
carmarthenshire
Pembrokeshire
ceredigion

Main clubs covered = Swansea, neath, Llanelli, Aberavon, Carmarthe Quins, Llandovery

Total Population = 761,000

Valleys and South Powys
Bridgend
RCT
Merthyr
Caerphilly
Torfaen
Blaenau Gwent

Main clubs covered = Bridgend, Pontypridd, Caerphilly, Ebbw Vale, Pontypool, Bedwas, Cross Keys

Total population = 772,000

North - RGC1404
Anglesey
Gwynedd
Conwy
denbighshire
Flintshire
Wrexham
North Powys

Main clubs covered = ???

Total population = 756,000


(polulation figures courtesy of Wikipedia)


This is what I would do with a complete new rebranding.

Every blade of grass in Wales is represented in this model as this is all the counties (unitary authorities) of Wales.

Also each 'region' has a population to cover of similar size.

Every region gets the same funding, no development region. Players play generally for their region of origin if possible. So North Wales would be able to call on the likes of James King, George North, McCusker,maybe Eiffion Roberts etc.

The development league is the league below that (club Premiership) with the clubs to take a much more active part and have closer links to their region.

Below that regional leagues. eg North Wales division1,2,3 etc. with promotion and relegation.

Each year at this level the winners of North, SE, SW and Valleys leagues division 1 will have semi finals and a final for the title of Welsh Amateur Champions.

And Casartelli looked upon the simplicity, synchronicity, togetherness and beauty of the model and wept.

For he knew that such a wondrous vision would be beyond the comprehension of the small minded philistines that ran the game in the land of Wales.

Well I seen it yesterday and thought it was a rubbish idea. I still think that, and maybe I'm the only one? I'm sorry but why don't people realise Pontypool, Cross Keys, Caerphilly, Torfaen, Blaenau and Bridgend are not valleys. The Gwent Region is a good model, just needs more funding to the rugby infrastructure to the wider Gwent area. If any more of the above mergers happened we would be worse off than we are now.

My idea is 4 teams, with a 5th (North being added). WRU need more money without flogging the players more. So, get rid of the extra AI, play that game every June, a warm-up for the three test summer tour if you want to call it that. Needs to be a more exotic team though. Either France, Barbarians or a RC team with the most similar time zone, as I can't imagine they'd be willing to travel this way otherwise. Maybe hosting a Sevens tournament every year (nick Scotlands tournament) and that could help the WRU generate more income. The Sevens tournament would be successful if hosted at the MS I reckon.

With the above idea, the four Regions would stay as they are now, but would become Gwent, Glamorgan, Deheubarth East (Ospreys), Deheubarth West (Scarlets). That covers everywhere and should keep people happy. RGC can become Gwynedd despite that old kingdom not covering all of North Wales. But if done this way from the beginning, alternating between Parc Erias and Wrexham it could be successful. Because our limited resoures and player pools being condensed, all 4-5 need 15-23 international quality players. Might sound ridiculous, but that's the way it is in NZ, Aus, SA. Even Ireland almost have that. Regional A squads competing in the B&I cup might be of assistance with this. The Premiership can stay put, but as it stands it takes it break during this competition.

Can't see SRU or FIR allowing Wales a 5th team before their have a 3rd, can't see IRFU wishing the extra fixtures either and unsure if WRU could support 5 teams, (sure they are even talking about downgrading one).

As in the itinial article, I can't see Wales entering RGC as a 5th region, so if RGC are to enter in 5 years or so, something has to give with the 4 current regions, just what is best for Wales to change to enter RGC

Look I know none of it is happening now. These things don't happen overnight (you don't need to tell me that). It's just something to look into and could well happen in the future. I also think the FIR could have a 3rd team before Scotland, and those teams of the Rabo wouldn't mind as long as there isn't more than 14 teams in the league. Kingshu, the WRU haven't talked about downgrading one of our teams, Roger basically said "if worst comes to worst that's the way it could go." So people need to relax a little bit on that. I think it would be a ludicrous idea btw, so is 'giving more funding to this region than the other' as it puts the under-funded region into a hole they can't get out of. You should know that with the likes of Connacht playing rugby in your country.

Morgannwg

Not just Rodger Lewis

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21117021

Regional Rugby Wales (RRW the regions voice to the WRU) chief executive Stuart Gallacher says

"I believe we need four [but] I'm not saying four equal. To have an area of Wales without a professional region is self defeating...

If WRU and RRW are both mentioning it in the press, I'd say it is a credable threat.

I would rather the WRU back the regions to same extent IRFU does the Provinces.