If They Had Stopped When They Should Have

So, we all have opinions on when a boxer should or should have retired.

I thought it be nice to talk on that for a little while.

Here's my question: If they had retired when they should have then what would their record have been?

In terms of should have, i mean at the beginning of their decline.

In recent years Roy Jones has to be the best example of someone fighting way beyond their prime.

Who else you got out there? And what would their record be, in your opinion, if they had called it a day?

davidemore wrote:. And what would there record be, in your opinion, if they had called it a day?

Journalist eh.

I'd say that RJJ is one of the few I'd say should have retired earlier, but the thing is, he takes a few losses, comes back and wins a couple. He should ideally have retired after Calzaghe. Thats when he had accomplished everything he was going to and stood against someone who was just far better at that time.

Beyond that, I suppose you could throw in the Danny Williams, Matt Skelton, Audley Harrison trio. It amazes me people like that continued to box despite being both very shoddy and universally disliked by the boxing community.

I suppose you could make a case for Morales to have called it a day some time ago and be remembered more fondly as a high grade boxer who got out at the right time rather than someone who just keeps chugging on.

Duran could have retired after Barkley.

Roy, right now, is the one which sticks out the most as he's so recent. In a few weeks it'll be a decade since his WBA Heavyweight title win - take a look at a forum back then and try finding an all-time pound for pound top ten list without him in it, thy'd be at a premium I can assure you!

Anyway, as the years go by the subsequent guff which gets spouted about Jones will die down and he'll rightly be afforded a place amongst the genuine, elite all-time greats I reckon, same as Ezzard Charles.

It'd be interesting to see where Tyson would have ranked had he never returned to fight again after prison. My guess is that he'd be seen in a much better light and a fair bit higher up people's all-time Heavyweight lists.

What about Duran if he'd have stepped away from boxing after 'No Mas' as he said he would? Two defeats on his ledger at that stage, sure, but wins over both of those men to have blemished his record and, in 1980, the general feeling amongst most boxing scribes was that Duran had done more than enough to cement his place as the greatest Lightweight of the lot. That grip, while still very strong, has loosened just a little with time and I suspect that Duran's subsequent defeats to Hearns, Benitez etc ("he can't handle slick, classy boxers") and the slip ups to the Sims and Laings of this world ("how can an all-time top ten man lose to chaff like that?") are largely responsible for that.

I dunno Chris - it would have been better for his legacy I suppose but we would have missed out on his slapping around Camacho and Pazienza in their first bouts. Makes you appreciate how good he really was and how much of his work was pure boxing intelligence.

What about spinks retiring before Tyson got to him.

ShahenshahG wrote:What about spinks retiring before Tyson got to him.

Thats a good shout that

What if Holmes called it a day after beating Williams and before losing to Spinks?

All good shouts. What if Ricky hadn't have come back? Only the two ATG's of the era would hold wins over him. To be honest, when we consider how badly Ricky lived outside of the ring, and the swelled state his brain must have constantly been in, the man did well to only lose 3.

Glen Johnson is letting himself get beat up a bit now. And Shane Mosley. Shame. Two gents of the sport.

Shane Mosely is not a "gent" - he is an admitted drugs cheat.

Interesting call on Holmes, Jab Machine.

I see where you're coming from - the '0' was such a heavily-marketed ploy by the time Holmes got to 48-0 in 1985, much more valuable and focussed on than it was in the eras gone before, and had Larry been able to retire as the undefeated Heavyweight champion of the world he'd have been in very select company.

The thing is, if he'd gone out at 48-0, there'd always be that annoying little sector of the boxing public who'd remember his, rightly or wrongly, as a nearly man in some ways; the man who nearly matched Marciano's 49-0, but who didn't quite get there, much as some do to this day, bizarrely enough. The fact that Larry's 48 consisted of 20 title defences, compared to just 6 in 49 for Rocky, is often lost in some quarters.

I think he'd be remembered slightly more fondly than he is now. His comeback post Spinks gave us valiant stands against Tyson, Holyfield and McCall, but they didn't tell us anything about Larry we didn't know before. The Mercer fight was a gem for Holmes, definitely, but I think if you asked him if he'd take that or an unbeaten record with a retirement while still the division's top dog, he'd take the latter if he had the chance to do it all again.

I actually think if Duran had retired after No Mas the whole quitting thing would be far more greatly remembered. Better to even go out on your shield being pasted by Hearns than having your last fight as no mas.

Jabmachine, he seems like an okay guy to me. The PED issue aside of course. I hate PED's.

I agree Chris, given that he'd just come out of the strongest heavyweight era, miraculously undefeated (said only as he didn't face the Fraziers and Foremans of the time) showed hat he was something special to behold. He has his win against Ali which rightly or wrongly for the timing is an incredible name to have a W next to on your record, and as you rightly say, defending your title 20 times is something incredible. I think the number of fights in comparison to Marciano would only have affected him with non-boxing fans rather than himself and people like us, we'd understand he operated in the era of the "heavyweight" in terms of the guys he had been facing were considerably bigger in size (and talent) than in Marcianos era.

You're right in what you say about Mercer, but I think he needed to be beaten by the "younger" heavyweights in Tyson and Holyfield to sort of....prove that he wasn't this invincible machine. I mean, he's recently come out and said if he got into shape he'd beat a Klitschko.....never short on modesty that fella eh?

Not sure Chris... He's in denial about his defeats anyway!

So many fighters go on too long, it's hard to single them out, some damage their legacies more than others, but even the duran's/hearns/holyfield's who remain competitive lose a bit of their lustre when you see them struggling with guys not fit to lace their boots

davidemore wrote:Jabmachine, he seems like an okay guy to me. The PED issue aside of course. I hate PED's.

He still cheated, doped - and put another mans life at risk. This doesn't make him an "okay" guy - it makes him a cheat. You can call him a gent, but not of the sport of boxing. It should by all means be ashamed of him, because who knows how long he doped for before he was caught?

I think that drug cheats are scum in boxing. A sport that can kill. I agree. I also think that people make mistakes and choose to forgive him for his. He's clean now at least. I just choose to accept he is a boxer who cheated and move on. He seems okay to me now. As a person. We all mess up.

Too true, Jabby.

Holmes-Klitschko for 2013? Well, if Larry's boxing at the age of sixty-three is a tenth as good as his jive talking skills still are, then Wladimir's in a world of trouble!

davidemore wrote:I think that drug cheats are scum in boxing. A sport that can kill. I agree. I also think that people make mistakes and choose to forgive him for his. He's clean now at least. I just choose to accept he is a boxer who cheated and move on. He seems okay to me now. As a person. We all mess up.

No. As a person - as in to his friends and family etc whatever, he can be a "gent"

But he willingly put another persons life in jeopardy on an unlevel playing field, meaning he was willing to cheat to do it rather than rely on his natural ability. His greatest win is built on the foundation of a lie. He brought a gun to a fist fight. He's the scally you see on the street who carries a knife because he's not hard enough to take anyone down without it.

Obviously a Mosely fan I take it.

88Chris05 wrote:Too true, Jabby.

Holmes-Klitschko for 2013? Well, if Larry's boxing at the age of sixty-three is a tenth as good as his jive talking skills still are, then Wladimir's in a world of trouble!

I would watch behind a permanent facepalm. Can you imagine the "trash talking" at the Press Conference? Larry running his mouth while Wlad sits stony faced thinking "what the hell is this?"

I dont even think Holmes said he needed to be in shape. I got the impression he meant he could get off the sofa tomo and become heavyweight champion again if he felt like it.

I can never make up my mind whether Ali should have retired after The Rumble or the Thrilla. I always think there would have been something poetic about retiring after The Rumble. As Ali said himself in the build up to the fight (he ws intending to retire after the fight), he'd be going out of the sport the same way he came into it - beating the big monster that no one else could beat.

I think you're definitely right in saying that retirement after the 'Rumble' would have been poetic and extremely fitting, Superfly. As you allude to, even in its time there was a buzz and feeling around the fight which suggested that everyone involved knew that they were a part of a truly momentous, atmospheric and special moment in boxing history - it was as if the stars were aligning specifically for that moment in Zaire.

That said, a rivalry as significant, long-lasting and as genuine as Ali-Frazier could never be left with a 1-1 scoreline, and it would have been a great shame had that series finished with their second fight, which was a fairly tepid and messy contest which was made to look like nothing in comparison to their 1971 and 1975 meetings. The 'Thrilla' is the last great moment, or legacy-enhancing fight of Ali's career; everything after that was pointless and, in some ways, sad in my opinion.

I can definitely see the argument for him quitting after Foreman, but for me Frazier III would have been an even better moment.

Brian Neilssen would have also had a 48-0 record at HW.

Audley should have quit immediately AFTER turning pro but BEFORE his first fight.

Ali and Frazier AFTER Manila

I'm not a Mosley fan, I just forgive that's all, Jabmachine.

Jeff Lacey should have gone after the JC beat down.

Lacey should have gone BEFORE the Calzaghe beatdown

Haha!

Calderon, before he fought Segura? He was far too old at that point and had lost a few steps, taking on a bigger fighter than him was a mistake. Even with his excellent skills...

If Ali had retired after regaining the title from Spinks it would have been the perfect swansong, but from the perspective of his health then post manilla would have been better.

It's interesting to think that Trinidad flirted with the idea of retirement after the De la Hoya fight in late 1999, as he felt that sewing up all business at 147 lb and winning one of the highest-grossing fights in history left him with nowhere to go.

Had he knocked it on the head then there's a good chance we'd be rating him a bit higher than we do today, I think.

Even if he'd have stuck to his first retirement not long after Hopkins his aura would still be less dimmed than it is, I believe. Looking back, it seems bizarre that Tito was ever considered such a candidate for the number one pound for pound spot throughout 2000 / 2001, but at the time of the Hopkins fight his vulnerable moments against the Leushings and Campas' of this world, along with the questionable decision he got against Oscar, had been readily forgotten by most, and there was serious talk of him going on to become Puerto Rico's greatest fighter ever before B-Hop stunned him.

But alas, that comeback in which Winky absolutely schooled him to within an inch of his life left a lot of questions hanging over Tito's head, along with the whisper that he was a flat track bully who couldn't handle boxers who could move and defend.

Never liked Trinidad - never will. Something about him irked me. Maybe it was the De La Hoya decision, maybe it was the Reid fight. I'm not sure.

Aye, I think a lot of people had a hard time warming to Trinidad on a personal level, Jabby. Upset a lot of people with that controversial decision against the 'Golden Boy.' Was a great fighter to watch for the most part though, in fairness. Terrific hitter with either fist but with a leaky defence, so you were nearly always going to get an interesting spectacle when Tito was involved.

I still don't quite know how he managed to get a win from the De la Hoya fight, mind you. At the absolute best, you could maybe argue that Oscar's negative performance in the final three rounds or so could have evened it out enough to give Trinidad a slightly lucky and dubious draw, but there's no way he won it.

That said, Trinidad didn't score the fight and losing by two, perhaps three points, as he did in my eyes, is no disgrace against a Welterweight as good as Oscar, and this was an absolute peak Oscar as well.

Damn good fighter, won't quite go down as a true great, but may well have done had he called it quits when he first intended to, rightly or wrongly.

I liked trinidad but never had any time to follow boxing as I do now - I watched the fight of big names and spent the rest of the time working or in school so never really had an opinion on him except that he was good to watch. That oscar fight peed me right off, both because of Oscar legging the final rounds and the decision.

Tito eluded me too really, shame, the guy fought hard. Caught the Hopkins fight though.

I think Oscar must still be kicking himself over that one today, Shah! In terms of the career defeats he suffered, I think Trinidad was the most costly one to his legacy. I think, because it was the last 'big' fight of the nineties in those middle divisions, an Oscar win would have brought a sense of closure and finality for the decade, namely that Oscar was THE best Welterweight of it (debatable, but given his stature and fame at the time it's likely that many would have believed this) and that, with the division unified and having beaten Quartey on top of all this, that he'd carved out a proper place against the immortals.

As such, the decision got away from him, the question of who was the Welterweight of the deacde was never decisively and conclusively answered and, given the nature of how he lost it, critics were left questioning his fighting heart and love for the sport.

Julio cesar Chavez was the one that pained me the most....Thought he was Mr granite who whilst he could be outboxed from time to time was the immovable object!!

Watching him become mortal against Oscar and then Kosta.. hurt.......

We like our heroes to stay on a pinnacle.....and despite resenting his lucky win over Taylor a little..

I always admired JC superstar..

It pained me to see him stopped..

Hagler should have retired after he fought Mugabi. He looked slow and he spoke about retiring while being interviewed after the fight.

Holmes should have retired earlier and not given Marciano's record a second thought, I never thought he needed it. If it was so important to him he could have just stuffed his record with a couple of non-title fights to get him to 50-0. That might be considered cheating by some but for me his 20 title defenses puts him ahead of Marciano and his 6 defenses anyway.

Mike Tyson. Imagine where he'd be ranked on an all time heavyweight list if he'd retired after Carl Williams. Yes, he was only 23 but if he was really having all those mental problems at the time he shouldn't have been in the ring.

Tyson after Carl Williams

Disagree.....Someone offered me 13 million for fighting a welterweight who'd been out of the game three years I'd have took it...

Hagler should've beaten Leonard...but like he did against Duran and Vito thought he'd be clever..

his own fault..

TheMackemMawler wrote:Tyson after Carl Williams

Yep, same with Holmes.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Disagree.....Someone offered me 13 million for fighting a welterweight who'd been out of the game three years I'd have took it...

Hagler should've beaten Leonard...but like he did against Duran and Vito thought he'd be clever..

his own fault..

Hmmm. Not trying to turn this into a Hagler Leonard debate Truss. I'm just looking at it as the OP states "If They Had Stopped When They Should Have". If retirement was on Hagler's mind then he should have done so.

I'm not looking for Hag-Leo debate..

just saying it was one last huge payday which was minimum risk or should have been...

Had he started southpaw and not been clever he'd have won....

Not looking for an argument..just think Marv timed it pretty well..

Nice to see Pavlik retire before he gets pancaked.

If Tyson had got a 25 year sentence and retired from boxing. How high would he have been ranked?

Spinks should have quit after Holmes II. After beating a fat Larry he should have stopped riding his luck. Holmes frequently let him off the hook in both fights especially the 2nd.

You see you haven't seen the fight..

Holmes wasn't fat!!!

Always had a soft spot for Trinidad and would consider him a true great higher than De La Hoya and Mosley for instance. Thought he edged the fight with Oscar as well and that combined with his higher weight exploits gives him a very good record. To be fair to him I don't see Hopkins losing to anyone smaller than him and we are talking about one of the finest middleweights of all time.

In 1992, az? Well, he would still have had the Douglas debacle on his CV, and people would probably have argued that the Ruddock fights showed Tyson to be on the downgrade (they'd have been right, as we know), but no-one would have been able to prove it. I think that he'd rank behind only Ali and Louis in the opinion of a lot of people if he'd stopped in '92.

The Holy losses has done more damage to his standing that it deserves. Without Rooney in his corner and Cayton managing his affairs, he was lost and not the same fighter. I men how can King send him to a beauty pageant! Its like sending a fix to guard the chickens.