Who has what resources? The facts and figures.

Hi All,
In light of an article I read on the BBC website about resources available to the Welsh regions and level playing field. It made me wonder what the resources were for all the other teams fighting it out in Europe.
Copy of the article - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21117021

Now, please dont turn this into a WUM post - I'm genuinly interested in a comparison discussion.
What kind of funding from the unions do the French and English teams have and comparible salary caps etc.

So, my understanding from the article above is that Wales' four regions each receive £3.5m annually from playing in televised competitions, combined with a share of £6m from the Welsh Rugby Union. The regions have introduced a salary cap of £3.5m a year

English clubs have a salary cap of £4.5 mil this season, but do they get funding from the RFU? I know that they are rewarded depending on the number of EQP in their squad but do they get additional support?

France - The Top 14 salary cap is set at €9.5 million for 2012–13, do these clubs get additional FFR support?

What is the deal with Irish provinces? As I understand it there are central contracts and players are placed in the regions by the IRFU, are the regions centrally funded by the union too or are the stand alone clubs? There are big numbers at Leinster and Munster games so surely there is a good income from gate revinue.

Scotland - What is the deal here? Are these primarily SRU funded?

Any way, can you fill in the gaps? Are Welsh regions really more poorely funded than other European teams?
Whats the business model for Italian sides?

Once again, this isnt a WUM thread - I am interested in the figures.

Not sure about much in regards funding, it all seems so cloak and dagger. From my own team's point of view (Dragons) our coach has said on a few occasions that our squad spend is only around £2m or something similar as we can't afford an more. So, there is some sort of disparity around the spend received (reportedly around £5.5m) and the amount actually available. I don't know where the rest goes? Academy maybe? Coaches? We must generate at least a bit from an average 6000 tickets a game and merchandise. Maybe we only get half of the funding as we're half owned by the WRU!

Griff - so if there is 6mil coming from the union then that isnt equally divided 1.5mil to each of the regions?

From an article I read a few weeks ago in l'Equipe Toulose has a turnover of 34mil Clermont 25 mil and Toulon/Stade /Racing around 22 million euros. Which is probably higher than any Brit/Irish team

The two scottish teams are directly funded from the SRU I believe - budgets a good chunk under the English salary cap again from what I believe

Hi rosbif, that is a significant turnover - they still have to operate under or up to a salary cap though? Even if it is significantly higher than other European Union sides.

With those turnovers though I suspect that there is little additional support from the FFR - they are pretty good business models (good turnstile figures and merchandise sales) etc.

turnover does not equal budget for spending on players.

I have Toulon figures

3.5 merchandising
1.2 from Buurda
8.6 sponsorship
6.0 tickets
1.8 TV
2.8 subventions/grants

TJ - Budget for spending on players = Salary Cap.

So, as we are all aware - the French clubs all are self sustaining businesses. They operate with little outside support from their union.
Presumably there is some deal on player release for the national team (like the English EPS).

Obviously the business can sometimes go sour (I think there was some talk about Stade Francais going bust a few years ago). But on the whole the French Clubs generate their own income.

propdavid_london wrote:Hi rosbif, that is a significant turnover - they still have to operate under or up to a salary cap though? Even if it is significantly higher than other European Union sides.

With those turnovers though I suspect that there is little additional support from the FFR - they are pretty good business models (good turnstile figures and merchandise sales) etc.

I understand (open to correction there) that many of the French clubs play at municipal council-owned stadiums, so don't pay shedloads of rent. Which frees up a decent wedge of cash for players.

In England (note, figures in http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/7895151.stm are 3 or 4 years old) the RFU pays out £146,500 per elite squad member - or a smidge under £400k per club. They also pay each club around £20,000 per EQ player (assuming teams hit an average of 14 or 15 in each match day squad). Assuming (and this is a complete guess on my part) each club has 25 EQs that's another £500k.

So call it around £900k per AP club from the RFU. And the clubs get TV rights revenue on top of that - the PRL adjust each club's share of TV revenues so that each club has roughly the same amount of TV+RFU dosh.

The variable revenue factors are
Match revenue (gate + beer etc)
Sponsorship
Prizemoney
Merch sales
Sugar-Daddy-payments/loans

You mean loss david, I know every French side runs at a loss and the best I was told was Stade at present, trying to pat off debts and running off the smallest loss (was told around 3 mill Euro a year but who knows) But this is just hearsay I havn't seen figures myself.

I know the Blues claimed to be breaking even in their first season at the Fukk you Blues stadium, but since returning to the CAP are in defecit (how that works I don't know)

The Dragons are one of the few pro rugby clubs in europe making money, not much but a little.

FFR doesnt give much support to pro french clubs. LNR will obviously give them a share of the TV money (14% of the club ressources) and some clubs get subsidies from the local city (for instance, stadium rent could be free , overall in average 9% of their ressources). One of the particular things about top14 teams is that around 43% of their resources come from sponsorship. as for the rest ticket sales and merchandising equates to 17% each. those are audited numbers from 2009-2010 season. migth have changed a little bit now specially as some of the budgets have inflated (Toulouse on 35M€ per year while Mont de Marsan is on 6-7M€).

I remember hearing reading that the SRU increased the funding to the teams a few years ago, and now they have for players around the English salary cap.

IRFU don't place players at Provinces, the central contract pays for X of the players pay, the province has to pay the rest. Players can choose which province to play for, Normally thier home Province if they will get gametime and are wanted etc, if not then another. Also think there are only 23 centrally contracted players, the rest are paid by province. Ontop of the central contracts the IRFU collects the H-cup and TV money and divides it among the provinces (not sure if they get to keep the knock out stage payments themselves as English clubs do), and also receive extra funding from IRFU coffers to provinces, who generate there own income also, from gates, merchandise etc etc.

Heard provinces operate at the top end of the Englsih salary cap oe maybe just slightly more,

Welsh regions I can't work out, they get about £5 million from WRU each (including tv deals, h-cup money etc etc) and have thier acamady paid for, if you consider that they should be able to generate through gates and merchandise etc enough to pay for the coaches, travel etc etc, then they should also be operating at around the English salary cap. But they arn't for some reason, something that has confused me and Griff for some time that nobodies been able to answer? These figures make it look like regions are actually well funded but they have a self imposed salary cap lower than what you would expect, and always complain about under funding.

Kingshu

The regions aren't funded by the WRU at 5mill each though, plus the Academy systems are paid for within the funding.

They receive 1.5 million from the WRU and then generate another 2 - 3 themselves depending on which region your talking about.

For example the Dragons have a wage bill of under 2 mill, because they don't get HC money etc, they pull in about 3 mill all in I heard (not sure how accurate that is)

Yeah, I heard that the academy is paid for to a certain extent, I.e. a small amount of contribution by the WRU. The Ospreys have been arguing that they're putting in 4 times what the WRU are to cover the academy costs. That obviously reduces the amount available for the rest of the region's costs.

People often quote the WRU end of year accounts that say that they give the regions 22million or something like that. But it just does not make sense that we cannot live off that contribution! We must be missing something!

What the WRU say they give and what the WRU give are 2 different things...

Claiming they pay for the Academies - I know the Dragons fund theres and allocate the pittance they receive to run it elsewhere like paying for a few development officers.

WRU central contract offer - designed to give the regions the same amount of funding and hand the WRU the keys to their best players!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Kingshu

The regions aren't funded by the WRU at 5mill each though, plus the Academy systems are paid for within the funding.

They receive 1.5 million from the WRU and then generate another 2 - 3 themselves depending on which region your talking about.

For example the Dragons have a wage bill of under 2 mill, because they don't get HC money etc, they pull in about 3 mill all in I heard (not sure how accurate that is)

From BBC
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21117021

Wales' four regions each receive £3.5m annually from playing in televised competitions, combined with a share of £6m from the Welsh Rugby Union.

The £3.5 million each is the TV money h-cup money etc - it goes to WRu and they share it between the regions.

I make that £5 million each, plus then what they generate themselves from gates, merchandise etc etc, where does this revenue they make themselves plus more than £1.5 million if they don't make the salary cap?

From reading the WRU accounts I can't see where they give TV revenue on top of their main contribution. It just says 'allocations to regions : £15.1m' which is about £3.8m each, and then it says this:

"The allocations to the four Regions have continued to increase by 1% (2011: 6%) to £15.1m (including the competition income referred to above). These allocations cover all international player release and provide core financial support for the four Regions and reflect the Participation Agreement signed in September 2009." The bold bit makes it sound like competition income is included in this allocation.

The Annual Report http://www.wru.co.uk/downloads/WRU_ARA_2012.pdf

Kingshu,
Thats kind of what I am getting at. Aside from possible lower gate revinue, the Welsh clubs are working with very similar models to many of the rival clubs.

Griff wrote:From reading the WRU accounts I can't see where they give TV revenue on top of their main contribution. It just says 'allocations to regions : £15.1m' which is about £3.8m each, and then it says this:

"The allocations to the four Regions have continued to increase by 1% (2011: 6%) to £15.1m (including the competition income referred to above). These allocations cover all international player release and provide core financial support for the four Regions and reflect the Participation Agreement signed in September 2009." The bold bit makes it sound like competition income is included in this allocation.

The Annual Report http://www.wru.co.uk/downloads/WRU_ARA_2012.pdf

Also, I can't see anywhere in their accounts where it says that they pay for the running of the academies. So, if the £3.8m is inclusive of TV monies and needs to be spent on academy costs then you can start to see why the regions are struggling. The obvious answer is to make more money yourselves, but if the money you generate has to be spent on travel, coaching, marketing, etc. then that £3.8m for squad wages and academy costs (coaching, travel) won't go too far, especially if you can't generate enough to cover the other costs (coaching, travel, etc.) in the first place!

I guess the other elephant in the room as far as the regions are concerned is historic debt - how much are they having to spend to service those loans (note, some of the backers may well be not charging much interest admittedly). Even if you're breaking even on current costs the old debt can be a real drag - just ask George Osborn or Barack Obama.

From memory the PWC report suggested the WRU couldn't afford to take over the regions fully (which was an option they explored) because the historic debt levels would make the banks very nervous.

looks like I killed the debate

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:I guess the other elephant in the room as far as the regions are concerned is historic debt - how much are they having to spend to service those loans (note, some of the backers may well be not charging much interest admittedly). Even if you're breaking even on current costs the old debt can be a real drag - just ask George Osborn or Barack Obama.

From memory the PWC report suggested the WRU couldn't afford to take over the regions fully (which was an option they explored) because the historic debt levels would make the banks very nervous.

I wonder whether debt could be written off providing something else happened?

Kingshu, have you had a chance to look over the link I posted to the WRU annual report? You often post that the regions get £3.5m plus TV monies plus academies paid for, but I can't see that in the report, only that the regions get £15.1m between including TV money (or that's the way the wording sounds).

The £15M is the money given to the regions. This includes the ERC money and the Pro12 money (TV and sponsorship). In addition the academies are funded as part of the Elite rugby operational costs (£4oddM). So the regions have £3.75M from WRU, their academies are funded (not clear exactly how much). The Regions also get ticket money, individual sponsorship and anything they get extra for events at their ground.

Anyone any idea of running costs?

Regarding the Scottish sides they have a playing budget of £4.2M according to the SRU CEO

http://www.clydebanklive.co.uk/scotstoun-expects-massive-crowd/

That's £50k off the base English cap, £300k off the maximum with academy allowance. Then there is the marque player allowance that is limited to £300k (not seen a direct quote stating that). So a bit shy off the big English spenders but comparable (or more) than the others.

Found this

http://origin.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFU_Annual_Report_201011.pdf

Says that the provinces cost £22.8M in 2011. They also get £9.3M from the Provinces playing in competitions. So the rest funded by the ticket sales and national game money. So that's on average £5.7M per province. Not sure if it includes central contract costs.

And finally

http://rfu.com/abouttherfu/~/media/Files/2012/abouttherfu/RFU_AR12_COMPLETE_311012_JR.ashx

The RFU gave the clubs £14.2M, so around £1.2M per club on average.

Edit: the RFU aren't involved in competition money for premiership. Not sure how it works with the ERC due to the PRL shares

Hammer

The academy costs are not an addition though, they are included in the original funding. Plus not one of the academies come in on budget, the Ospreys are reportedly spending over 200% of that budget alone, and the Blues spend more than they get on the senior academy alone!!

There is no chance the regions receive 5 mill or anywhere near that, I know the Dragons probably run at about 60% of that, and the other 3 not much more.

But in reality if the regions could market the rugby as an attractive product (not sure that will EVER happen) then they should get higher gates and merchandise and will run at a higher income rate and become more competitive, theres no excuse for the tripe they are serving up to fans right now!

Cheers Hammer. I couldn't decifer whether the academies were paid for by the WRU. It does say 'managing the age grade structures' under operational costs, but does that include coaching, facilities, travel, etc. as i assumed this would be done in house at the regions. If so, then maybe the regions bill the WRU? Not sure. However, as has been mentioned the Ospreys have implied that the running of their academy costs 4 times what the WRU contributes, so I'm unsure how the arrangement works.

Bluesman, he's not saying the regions receive £5m each. He's saying they receive £3.75m each. Where there is debate is about the funding of the academies.

Well I can tell you that every RDO/Strength and conditioning coach, physio etc etc are all employed by the WRU directly.

every junior Academy coach U18 and below is a volunteer.

The costs of the centre of excellent ie Cross keys college is maintained by the WRU directly.

All budgetary constraints outside of this I am nearly sure the Dragons have to cover themselves, and from what I knew the costs of the staff/college etc were deducted from the initial funding.

propdavid_london wrote: There are big numbers at Leinster and Munster games so surely there is a good income from gate revinue.

Once again, this isnt a WUM thread - I am interested in the figures.

Don't mean to be a pedant - but Ulster last 7 home games have all been sell outs as well, we aren't far behind Munster and Leinster's gates with 11'500 at every home game. Our capacity is also being increased to 18'000 - the work has already started.

HammerofThunor wrote:Found this

http://origin.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFU_Annual_Report_201011.pdf

Says that the provinces cost £22.8M in 2011. They also get £9.3M from the Provinces playing in competitions. So the rest funded by the ticket sales and national game money. So that's on average £5.7M per province. Not sure if it includes central contract costs.

So is that £22.8m between them (and more to 3 and less to Connacht) and then the TV money of £9.3m on top? That's big bucks! If not, £22.8m split evenly to 3 and less to Connacht could be around £6m each which is a fair whack too! Obviously don't know what comes out of that (senior squad wages, academy, coaching, etc?).

It says €22.8M (I put £ before) are the running costs. Of these costs €9.3M are generated by the Provinces in terms of sponsorship and TV, etc. The rest is made up of ticket sales to provincial games, with the IRFU making the shortfall with international revenue. So the complete running costs of the 4 provinces is €22.8M. However I would expect the central contract payments are outside of this. So the €5.7M per Provinces is the total running costs less the central contracts. As I understand it Connacht are funded the same now aren't they?

I think there is a fair bit of not comparing like with like on this thread. The English salary cap is the total amount to be spent on players. In the case of the scottish teams the money they have available while similar to the cap is actually their total budget - they have to pay the coaches, travel, and so on out of this. The english clubs. similarly turnover is being quoted for some clubs - this is more than the amount that can be spent on players.

Still - its interesting to see the relatively level playing field - and Edinburgh should be ashamed of the results given the money spent

The Welsh salary cap is set at the level it is because it is intended to show the WRU that their 'contribution' (i.e. Money either earned by the regions or paid for the right to flog their best players to death for Barclays and Roger's benefit) to the regions is woefully short. I'm glad people are realising the £5m figure is tripe. Hopefully it will make the anti-regionalists out there realise that the four haven't been given a chance and give the WRU a wake up call as we get mullered in the 6n. I can't see it though. The pink cowboy hat brigade are in full effect in work looking forward to the championship and telling all and sundry how much they 'love their rugby'....

Ye I've had some of that too Stone,

'don't you just love it a week before the rugby starts, so exciting' WTF

'Are Wales going to win the slam again for us'

And the best Ive heard for ages...

'Ive got my ticket for the game against Ireland, are you going? What? your not? But don't you like rugby?' AAARRRGGGHHHH

Yeah I piped up with I hope we get murdered in every game. Why? Because I'm a Welsh rugby supporter of the year round, not six week variety. Trouble is the national rugby team is so linked with the Welsh identity that people can't see what they're doing to the game. Or else they don't really care. Really sad to see.

Don't worry boys, Wales will more than likley get the wooden spoon you are all craving for. Why, because in the space of six to eight months we have gone from grand slammers, to a white wash down under and humiliation in the Autumn. I put this down to the fact that all our best players are being battered around the French and English leagues, they do not have to wrap other countries international players in cotton wool, hence the fact we have not got a first fifteen for the six nations, if the WRU are not willing to do something about our best players leaving then this will only get worst, Luke Charteris, James Hook, Gethin Jenkins, Paul James and many others should all be playing in Wales not spread out across Europe.

I personally do not see the problem with different 'levels' of fan. The diehard, the occasional, the glory supporter - they're all fans in one way or another and they do absolutely nothing to damage the game. So what if they're only supporting the national team. Who cares? Better than not supporting it at all. We moan that the WRU is not giving the regions enough money, but without the pink cowboy hat brigade and the occasional fan then there is even less chance of them increasing their contribution. Is it because they're taking your ticket? I bet if you were offered one you'd moan that it cost too much and found another excuse not to go ('the hotdogs are 1 degree colder than I like', 'the seats hurt my back', 'I feel disenfranchised by the WRU').

If more people than normal want to come along to the Dragons game in a big derby or cup match then fantastic. I'm not going to scold them for attending now and then. People have different things going on in their lives. Some can commit to every Friday night at the rugby, some can commit to every night at the pub, while others can only commit to the occasional game of rugby. Who is anyone to judge others for when/how often they attend? Just because you attend lots of games doesn't give you some sort of points system to be classed as 'king of the fans'.

Let's put it another way; I'm a big music fan, but I barely ever go to any concerts or gigs. I buy CDs, etc. It doesn't make me any less of a music fan. I bet there's plenty of examples of people who go to the rugby every week, stand in the Hazell terrace half cut, spilling their beer in the hoods of the people in front of them, shouting abuse, being generally lairy, who don't know the rules of the game, while there are people at home who know the rules and the intricacies of the game but don't attend very often. Doesn't make one better than the other. Ones contributing more to the region financially, yes. But to take offense at people who only support one part of something, or something from time to time, is just typical of the small minded parochial attitude we have in Wales. Divided we stand and divided we fall. It's the same with regional rugby, 'You've got it in Gwent so we in Ponty don't want it to exist there at all just to spite you'.

We need more fans however we get them, not putting people off by getting in their faces if they don't know the chest sizes of the entire squad, or the date that Brett Davey reached 50 points with the boot for his youth team. We're in danger of making rugby a closed book only accessible to diehards. And that's why the crowds aren't increasing.

From the above reports the RFU made more money off TV deals than they did ticket sales. So I think that means that the people staying at home and watching are more important to the finances of the RFU

TJ are you guessing that 'playing budget' doesn't just mean player salaries or do you know?

Griff wrote:Kingshu, have you had a chance to look over the link I posted to the WRU annual report? You often post that the regions get £3.5m plus TV monies plus academies paid for, but I can't see that in the report, only that the regions get £15.1m between including TV money (or that's the way the wording sounds).

I got it from BBC
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21117021

Wales' four regions each receive £3.5m annually from playing in televised competitions, then I thought they got a share of £6m from the Welsh Rugby Union.

Looks like it includes the WRU £6million

The £15.1 divided between the 4 is £3.77 million each.

Top me the real worry is that the provinces are beginging to leave the regions behind.
The provinces get more support from the Union, have higher gates, have been more successful and hence have better sponsorship deals, and thier budgets are around the prem salary cap, the regions need to be operating at around the same to stay competative

There is already a gap beginging to form and if the WRU do not get behind the regions to the same extent the IRFU does the provinces then they risk this widening.

Griff wrote:I personally do not see the problem with different 'levels' of fan. The diehard, the occasional, the glory supporter - they're all fans in one way or another and they do absolutely nothing to damage the game. So what if they're only supporting the national team. Who cares? Better than not supporting it at all. We moan that the WRU is not giving the regions enough money, but without the pink cowboy hat brigade and the occasional fan then there is even less chance of them increasing their contribution. Is it because they're taking your ticket? I bet if you were offered one you'd moan that it cost too much and found another excuse not to go ('the hotdogs are 1 degree colder than I like', 'the seats hurt my back', 'I feel disenfranchised by the WRU').

Fundamentally incorrect sorry Griff, knowing they can happily sell out the Milstone to event-goers every few months has allowed the WRU to get away with running the game into the ground in order to service their debts. It does huge damage. The only people who benefit from 6n sell outs are Barclays and Roger Lewis. Until that changes, and particularly as they have gone out of their way to shaft the Dragons, I can't in good conscience support Team Wales anymore.

Stone Motif wrote:

Griff wrote:I personally do not see the problem with different 'levels' of fan. The diehard, the occasional, the glory supporter - they're all fans in one way or another and they do absolutely nothing to damage the game. So what if they're only supporting the national team. Who cares? Better than not supporting it at all. We moan that the WRU is not giving the regions enough money, but without the pink cowboy hat brigade and the occasional fan then there is even less chance of them increasing their contribution. Is it because they're taking your ticket? I bet if you were offered one you'd moan that it cost too much and found another excuse not to go ('the hotdogs are 1 degree colder than I like', 'the seats hurt my back', 'I feel disenfranchised by the WRU').

Fundamentally incorrect sorry Griff, knowing they can happily sell out the Milstone to event-goers every few months has allowed the WRU to get away with running the game into the ground in order to service their debts. It does huge damage. The only people who benefit from 6n sell outs are Barclays and Roger Lewis. Until that changes, and particularly as they have gone out of their way to shaft the Dragons, I can't in good conscience support Team Wales anymore.

I cannot for the life of me understand that statement I used to watch the Warriors most weekends when they were around and then when they were made bust I was bitter for a bit, but not to the level where I would not support my country. Perhaps you should look at the fact that at least your region is still there, shafted or not, you still have a team to affiliate yourself to. I love it down at Rodney Parade and on the few times I go there I know I am going to enjoy myself. I suppose you feel the same as you go their more often than not, so why not get behind your country with the same attitude ? I love Wales, I am a proud Welsh man, and I support all Welsh rugby in any guise or form, what I will not do though is support the idiots who run the show, but I will not let them spoil my enthusiasm when it comes to the sport I devote so much of my life to, so if I can get a ticket or a hospitality at the MS for an international I will go and I will join in with the pink cowboy hat, corporate suit warring fans. Why ? Because I do not care about what other people get out of the game, I am there for my enjoyment and Cardiff on international day would by crap without all the "over enthusiastic part time fans" being there. Instead of moaning lets just get on with what we've got, which if you live in Newport or Cardiff or Llanelli or Swansea, is a damn site more than most others have got.

It's quite simple. I refuse to support a competitor that is trying to put my local team out of business. Think of it as supporting your local shop over Tescos and you'll get it. I am grown up enough to be able to separate being Welsh from supporting the national rugby team. Do you support those clowns at the Welsh Government because they 'represent' Wales too? I feel bad about the Warriors, and I don't live in any of those places, but I really don't understand why you think I should support the gang that folked Warriors and is folking us.

Stone Motif wrote:It's quite simple. I refuse to support a competitor that is trying to put my local team out of business. Think of it as supporting your local shop over Tescos and you'll get it. I am grown up enough to be able to separate being Welsh from supporting the national rugby team. Do you support those clowns at the Welsh Government because they 'represent' Wales too? I feel bad about the Warriors, and I don't live in any of those places, but I really don't understand why you think I should support the gang that folked Warriors and is folking us.

Because your Welsh, and as you say grown up, so just because the lunatics are running the asylum, it does not mean you should bite your nose off to spite your face. Wales rugby is bigger than any one person or group of people, yes they screwed the Warriors over, yes I was fuming mad at the time, but turn my back on my country NEVER. Anyway, which ever way you look at it, another population in Wales will be peeved off sooner rather than later because the regions as they are, are not working, so it's up to you, if the Dragons get disbanded(I am not suggesting they should be or will be) would you not support rugby altogether, or heaven forbid support another team or nation ?

I hope those in charge of the WRU don't make the mistake of treating Welsh rugby like a business. I've seen it before, their main concern is having lovely looking balance sheets at the end of the year and getting their bonuses etc but it usually comes at the expense of the grassroots of the game and has a negative long term effect.

HammerofThunor wrote:It says €22.8M (I put £ before) are the running costs. Of these costs €9.3M are generated by the Provinces in terms of sponsorship and TV, etc. The rest is made up of ticket sales to provincial games, with the IRFU making the shortfall with international revenue. So the complete running costs of the 4 provinces is €22.8M. However I would expect the central contract payments are outside of this. So the €5.7M per Provinces is the total running costs less the central contracts. As I understand it Connacht are funded the same now aren't they?

Connacht get half the other provinces in central funding and they've less gate money and sponsors etc.

Munster are in debt paying off Thomonds redevelopment. Its about €10m I believe. Leinster are probably most well off with their big Aviva stadium games topping up their bank balance but they've no stadium of their own which is always a bit of a cash drain. Ulster are in a good position with their stadium redevelopment going ahead but as of now they've a limited capacity in ravanhill.


Whats clear is the gap between the haves and have nots is getting bigger, like in soccer. Big businesses are pumping more and more money into rugby but the downside is the rich always get richer and the others struggle more and more to close the gap.

LD there is somebody on our board (Ospreys) who has 8 Irish international tickets for sale at £75 each, nobody up to now has said online he would like any of them, although some could have in a PM, I've recently gone on there to say I wouldn't want any for the same reasons as Stone, they are trying to shaft us, this is coming from somebody who has watched TW for over 30 years and must have seen them well over 50 times mainly at home, some of the time away.

Stone Motif wrote:

Griff wrote:I personally do not see the problem with different 'levels' of fan. The diehard, the occasional, the glory supporter - they're all fans in one way or another and they do absolutely nothing to damage the game. So what if they're only supporting the national team. Who cares? Better than not supporting it at all. We moan that the WRU is not giving the regions enough money, but without the pink cowboy hat brigade and the occasional fan then there is even less chance of them increasing their contribution. Is it because they're taking your ticket? I bet if you were offered one you'd moan that it cost too much and found another excuse not to go ('the hotdogs are 1 degree colder than I like', 'the seats hurt my back', 'I feel disenfranchised by the WRU').

Fundamentally incorrect sorry Griff, knowing they can happily sell out the Milstone to event-goers every few months has allowed the WRU to get away with running the game into the ground in order to service their debts. It does huge damage. The only people who benefit from 6n sell outs are Barclays and Roger Lewis. Until that changes, and particularly as they have gone out of their way to shaft the Dragons, I can't in good conscience support Team Wales anymore.

A couple of things stone. Firstly, I look at it the other way. If the WRU were not bringing in the money from the international game then perhaps they'd be funding us even less. So, instead of the £3.5m that we moan about, it may actually be £1.5m, and I think the regions could have gone bust well before now. We all want more from the WRU because we see the accounts and the claims about how much profit they've made this year. So, I reckon we as regional fans are advantaged by a strong international showing and product bringing in the funding we need to survive, not damaged as you claim.

Secondly, and again this is just my opinion, but I see no harm in a kid, for example, saving up his pennies to pay for 1 Wales game than saving up for 2 Dragons games (or whatever the conversion is) if that's what he wants to do. It's none of our business, but at least he's watching rugby. As an adult he may then get the bug and support a region. Telling him he's a wrong 'un for supporting his nation is, frankly, ridiculous and none of your business. Just as it's none of my business that you will not support your nation, so I haven't commented. Let fans be fans and let them support what they want. The more the merrier. It's human nature anyway. The higher up the 'ladder' you go, the more interest is generated. That's why Pill Harriers have smaller crowds than Cross Keys, who have smaller crowds than the Dragons, who have smaller crowds than Wales. Berating people for turning up to Wales instead of the Dragons is akin to berating people for turning up to the Dragons and not their local club side, in a way.

On the ripping off note by a few posters: I got a Wales v Samoa ticket for the same as it cost to watch Dragons v Mogliano. Who's being ripped off there???