Who has what resources? The facts and figures.

First topic message reminder :

Hi All,
In light of an article I read on the BBC website about resources available to the Welsh regions and level playing field. It made me wonder what the resources were for all the other teams fighting it out in Europe.
Copy of the article - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21117021

Now, please dont turn this into a WUM post - I'm genuinly interested in a comparison discussion.
What kind of funding from the unions do the French and English teams have and comparible salary caps etc.

So, my understanding from the article above is that Wales' four regions each receive £3.5m annually from playing in televised competitions, combined with a share of £6m from the Welsh Rugby Union. The regions have introduced a salary cap of £3.5m a year

English clubs have a salary cap of £4.5 mil this season, but do they get funding from the RFU? I know that they are rewarded depending on the number of EQP in their squad but do they get additional support?

France - The Top 14 salary cap is set at €9.5 million for 2012–13, do these clubs get additional FFR support?

What is the deal with Irish provinces? As I understand it there are central contracts and players are placed in the regions by the IRFU, are the regions centrally funded by the union too or are the stand alone clubs? There are big numbers at Leinster and Munster games so surely there is a good income from gate revinue.

Scotland - What is the deal here? Are these primarily SRU funded?

Any way, can you fill in the gaps? Are Welsh regions really more poorely funded than other European teams?
Whats the business model for Italian sides?

Once again, this isnt a WUM thread - I am interested in the figures.

wayne wrote:LD there is somebody on our board (Ospreys) who has 8 Irish international tickets for sale at £75 each, nobody up to now has said online he would like any of them, although some could have in a PM, I've recently gone on there to say I wouldn't want any for the same reasons as Stone, they are trying to shaft us, this is coming from somebody who has watched TW for over 30 years and must have seen them well over 50 times mainly at home, some of the time away.

O.k, so you are making a stand, I could go with that, I could even support you with it, but what exactly are we making a stand about here ? Look, I am no lover of the powers to be at the WRU, but we must realise that the WRU accumilated a hell of a lot of debt at the turn of the millenium. So, the question I would like to ask you is this. If your region was scrapped, who would you support, would you turn your back on rugby altogether ? Where does this stop ? What we all need to remember is that without "TEAM WALES" there would not be any rugby in Wales, well not to the standard we have now. What I will say is though, is how the WRU urine me off by just sitting back and letting our best players leave to play rugby in another country. Why can't they just keep funding the regions as they are but introduce a bonus scheme for the players which gives them money the the regions cannot touch, something like, for every player who gets into the Welsh squad and ply their trade in Wales, give them a bonus for every game they play for their region, something to give our best players an incentive to stay in Wales. If the WRU gave George North an extra 5 grand a game he played for the Scarlets then that would give him more of an incentive to stay in Llanelli and not be tempted with French and English riches.This would also make players strive to get into the Welsh squad, if they do not want to play in Wales then they will loose their bonus, simple as that. We must start doing something to keep our best players in Wales so that European humiliation does not keep happening, also by keeping all our best players here, when they get to play for Wales they are not total strangers to each other which can only be a good thing. But I will tell you all one thing, biting your nose off to spite your face, and not showing support for the Welsh side will do more damage to your region in the long run, NO WALES, NO REGIONS, it's as simple as that.

LD, I was about to support Celtic Warriors after illness when they disbanded, so decided to support the Ospreys instead for the benefit of Welsh Rugby, that has now changed for about 4 years, I watch Wales on the tele, but will not put money in their coffers, because of the way they treated mainly Ospreys, but also the other Regions. Nobody has mentioned that not long after the Dodger took over his post the debt on the MS was renegotiated downwards but with higher payments to pay off the debt quicker. Why? If my region were disbanded then I believe all the Regions would be.The Price Waterhouse report said that the Ospreys were the most viable of the regions, one of the others who they haven't named didn't have a business plan The WRU would not let this happen because of the success of TW since regionalisation. I said in a different topic that in the WRU eyes RL is doing a good job, but in my eyes it is Dai Pickering who is not doing his job distributing the money for the benefit of Welsh Rugby. Nobody denies the Regions need the International team for some of their funds, the only thing they want is decent recompense for the job they do for TW. The Regions have taken stick for a number of years for not doing better in the HC yet are only allowed 4 days training for the double header just before Christmas yet TW need 13 days before the AIs and 6Ns. The Academy funding issue where RL says the WRU fund the Academies, whereas Geoff Atherton our Chairman has written in an LV matchday programme we put in 4 times the amount that the WRU do There are many other issues within Regional Rugby that the WRU have messed the Regions with, until they fund us adequately I will not be there.

Yes, I understand what you are saying, but you still have not given me an answer to my question, what are we making a stand about ? Do you want more money off the WRU ? I think the regions get enough, if they need more then they should earn it themselves. Lets not forget, the regions were put in place for the good of Wales, at the moment it is working the other way around. If the owners of the regions feel they are being short changed then they should just walk away, at the moment it just looks as though you are all acting like spoilt kids, having tantrums because you want more money, and if you do not get it you are not going to support Wales.

LordDowlais wrote:Yes, I understand what you are saying, but you still have not given me an answer to my question, what are we making a stand about ? Do you want more money off the WRU ? I think the regions get enough, if they need more then they should earn it themselves. Lets not forget, the regions were put in place for the good of Wales, at the moment it is working the other way around. If the owners of the regions feel they are being short changed then they should just walk away, at the moment it just looks as though you are all acting like spoilt kids, having tantrums because you want more money, and if you do not get it you are not going to support Wales.

Yes you are right they were set up for the benefit of TW, you are surely joking ( at the moment it is working the other way around), in what way are they helping RR, because if the benefactors walked away so would the equivelant of 3 grand slams, if you come back with £15 mill, that is our money that comes from TV and different competitions that we play in and competitions that our players play in. Do we get adequate recompense, IMO no, I include all the Regions in that analogy.

So what you are saying wayne, is the regions are actually making more money than the WRU are giving them ? By this I mean that the WRU are taking money off the regions. I find this very hard to believe. How much do BBC Wales and S4C actually pay for the right to air the Rabo. I am sure there would be some kind of law against this. Now if you told me that the WRU share the money out equally but certain regions generate more tv/prize/competition money than others I would agree with you, but I doubt the WRU are actually taking more money off them, by this degree the regions would be better off without the WRU. Can we get any proof that WRU are doing this, if we can it would be a lawyers dream, and if anybody can get this proof then I will be totally taken back.

As mentioned earlier the Provinces generate 9.4M euros in competition costs, TV deals, competition sponsorship, etc. Since the Regions are involved in all the same competitions the amount may well be similar (the PRO12 TV revenues are given to the generator, i.e. BBCW money goes to WRU, etc). So that's about £8M. Since the WRU give the regions £6M for extra release time and they give £15.1M in total it makes sense that the WRU give the regions the competition money (which they generate themselves) and the £6M for extra time. That's about it. So unless the BBCW money is significantly less than the RTE/BBCNI money they're not putting much of the international money in at all (as base financial support).

[quote="LordDowlais"]So what you are saying wayne, is the regions are actually making more money than the WRU are giving them ? By this I mean that the WRU are taking money off the regions. I find this very hard to believe. How much do BBC Wales and S4C actually pay for the right to air the Rabo. I am sure there would be some kind of law against this. Now if you told me that the WRU share the money out equally but certain regions generate more tv/prize/competition money than others I would agree with you, but I doubt the WRU are actually taking more money off them, by this degree the regions would be better off without the WRU. Can we get any proof that WRU are doing this, if we can it would be a lawyers dream, and if anybody can get this proof then I will be totally taken back.[/quote
LD, I believe you are being obtuse here, I'm talking about TV money from Rabo, LV, HC and Internationals that our players (Regions) and the money we should be having from TW, for using our players, as I said what are they doing to help RR?

[quote="wayne"]

LordDowlais wrote:So what you are saying wayne, is the regions are actually making more money than the WRU are giving them ? By this I mean that the WRU are taking money off the regions. I find this very hard to believe. How much do BBC Wales and S4C actually pay for the right to air the Rabo. I am sure there would be some kind of law against this. Now if you told me that the WRU share the money out equally but certain regions generate more tv/prize/competition money than others I would agree with you, but I doubt the WRU are actually taking more money off them, by this degree the regions would be better off without the WRU. Can we get any proof that WRU are doing this, if we can it would be a lawyers dream, and if anybody can get this proof then I will be totally taken back.[/quote
LD, I believe you are being obtuse here, I'm talking about TV money from Rabo, LV, HC and Internationals that our players (Regions) and the money we should be having from TW, for using our players, as I said what are they doing to help RR?

They are funding them to the tune of 3.5 millions samolians a year. Also, the regions do not play in the internationals so the WRU are paying extra for the privallage of using the regional players. What I am saying is that if the regions are earning more out of their tv and competition deals than the WRU are giving them back then that is illeagal surely ? If the regions are making more money off the tele and competitions than the 3.5 million quid a year the WRU are giving them, then surely the regions would be better off without the WRU.

LD,the 3.5 samolians has as already been explained to you includes the money for our (Regions) players, if you think for the number of days TW has our (Regions) players, is worth the amount they pay us for our inconvenience you are sadly mistaken. I think it was on our board about a year ago that our (Regions) TW players were only available to us with adequate preperation for about 40% of our (Regions) matches

Yes wayne these little gripes you have I agree with, the regions should get more time with their players before big games, but the question I am asking is, are the regions making more money than the WRU are giving back to them ? If this is the case then there is something seriously wrong, and the regions would be much better of without the WRU, wouldn't you agree ?

Griff wrote:
A couple of things stone. Firstly, I look at it the other way. If the WRU were not bringing in the money from the international game then perhaps they'd be funding us even less. So, instead of the £3.5m that we moan about, it may actually be £1.5m, and I think the regions could have gone bust well before now.

Disagree, the majority of the £3.5m is earned from the tv, the rest the regions 'pay' for by losing their best players and the right to run themselves as a business. They give them nothing from the pot

Griff wrote: We all want more from the WRU because we see the accounts and the claims about how much profit they've made this year. So, I reckon we as regional fans are advantaged by a strong international showing and product bringing in the funding we need to survive, not damaged as you claim.

I'm not claiming anything, they give the regions FA as I said above.

Griff wrote:
Secondly, and again this is just my opinion, but I see no harm in a kid, for example, saving up his pennies to pay for 1 Wales game than saving up for 2 Dragons games (or whatever the conversion is) if that's what he wants to do. It's none of our business, but at least he's watching rugby. As an adult he may then get the bug and support a region. Telling him he's a wrong 'un for supporting his nation is, frankly, ridiculous and none of your business. Just as it's none of my business that you will not support your nation, so I haven't commented. Let fans be fans and let them support what they want. The more the merrier. It's human nature anyway. The higher up the 'ladder' you go, the more interest is generated. That's why Pill Harriers have smaller crowds than Cross Keys, who have smaller crowds than the Dragons, who have smaller crowds than Wales. Berating people for turning up to Wales instead of the Dragons is akin to berating people for turning up to the Dragons and not their local club side, in a way.

I haven't told anyone what to do, but to blindly keep throwing money at the WRU the way the are killing the game will mean nobody has any pro rugby to watch anymore. It's not about me getting on my high horse, it's about me wanting my boy to be able to watch the Dragons, or Wales. The way we're going Roger will be sat somewhere on i heap of cash, and Team Wales will be running similar crowds to the national football team. That's not a judgement on people. That's genuine concern for the future of the game and a frustration that nobody cares so long as they get their day on the lash in Cardiff.

propdavid_london wrote:TJ - Budget for spending on players = Salary Cap.

So, as we are all aware - the French clubs all are self sustaining businesses. They operate with little outside support from their union.
Presumably there is some deal on player release for the national team (like the English EPS).

Obviously the business can sometimes go sour (I think there was some talk about Stade Francais going bust a few years ago). But on the whole the French Clubs generate their own income.

The French do have some sort of agreement but i don't think it's similar to the English EPS. Philippe Saint-André was bemoaning that they dont have enough access to the French players and they need to set up something similar to the English EPS. Article here > http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_8429082,00.html

The Scarlets CEO Mark Davies recently stated in a fans meeting that the WRU conceded in one of the PRGB meetings that the regions needed to be funded to the tune of 5 million to be sustainable. Mark Davies then went on to say the scarlets board think they could manage on 4.5 million.

The way I took that statement was the WRU acknowledge the regions are under funded. Ha if they didn't know that, then I'm sure the regional members on the PRGB would have enlighten them by now. Don't think RL has an easy ride during these meeting from what I've heard.

Can I also say I have 3 sisters who have between them 4 children who have 4 children that play under age rugby, their spouses either play, referee or help coach these teams or the seniors, these nieces sometimes wear pink hats to some of these internationals and they have every right to do so IMO.
There are much more than 2 sides to every story.

pioden gorllewin wrote:The Scarlets CEO Mark Davies recently stated in a fans meeting that the WRU conceded in one of the PRGB meetings that the regions needed to be funded to the tune of 5 million to be sustainable. Mark Davies then went on to say the scarlets board think they could manage on 4.5 million.

The way I took that statement was the WRU acknowledge the regions are under funded. Ha if they didn't know that, then I'm sure the regional members on the PRGB would have enlighten them by now. Don't think RL has an easy ride during these meeting from what I've heard.

This is the thing. I don't even think it's about the money so much as about being allowed to grow as businesses. Having a tonne of cash didn't bring any Heineken Cups back to Ospreylia. Certainly been the gist of what Martyn Hazell had to say on the subject. The money issue is just one part of it.

Stone Motif wrote:

pioden gorllewin wrote:The Scarlets CEO Mark Davies recently stated in a fans meeting that the WRU conceded in one of the PRGB meetings that the regions needed to be funded to the tune of 5 million to be sustainable. Mark Davies then went on to say the scarlets board think they could manage on 4.5 million.

The way I took that statement was the WRU acknowledge the regions are under funded. Ha if they didn't know that, then I'm sure the regional members on the PRGB would have enlighten them by now. Don't think RL has an easy ride during these meeting from what I've heard.

This is the thing. I don't even think it's about the money so much as about being allowed to grow as businesses. Having a tonne of cash didn't bring any Heineken Cups back to Ospreylia. Certainly been the gist of what Martyn Hazell had to say on the subject. The money issue is just one part of it.

to be fair stone mark davies was saying pretty much the same thing. an example he was just as vexed with the wru for telling him who he can and not sign (relating to the nwq limits) we can lose players for long periods to "team wales" during the season but we can't replace them with nwq players to remain competitive.

Just for the record the kid could probably go to 5 Dragons games or more for the price of a Wales ticket (if he gets it early enough at cost)

I can understand both sides of the argument, but we need to face facts...

The high profile games are priced to make as huge a profit as humanly possible, NZ and co will easily set you back £100 per ticket, and it is absolute murder trying to get your hands on one at cost, on the flip side teams like samoa and co will dictate £15 per ticket because the usual casuals arent interested!!!

The game NEEDS to be run like a business to an extent, if the WRU doesn't make money and pay off the bills we're all going under, but it needs to strike a balance between that and ensuring the future of the game/long term on field success.

IMHO the WRU are now clearly focus'd on the payday, and if it could get away with it would happily let the regions go under and ship academy prospects off to England and France at a profit per player, not pay anything into their development and then recieve the players for the payday.
This is the problem, and needs to change.

There are two ways of looking at the payday, as the problem or as the only benefit to the regions funding.

I personally believe the payday is not the problem, but the idea's of building a business around it is. The WRU need to re focus, get the regions up and running correctly and have them self sustainable, once this happens the payday is just a bonus and it isn't the only thing keeping welsh rugby afloat.

Trust me when I say it'll only take another 6N of losses followed by a poor Lions representation and the payday will slip and slip and slip. Those middle aged women won't want to get slaughtered and get their whaps out for a team that constantly gets beat by Samoa and Argentina (they think we are clearly better by divine right) and once the payday breaks down we are all FUKKED, someone turn the lightsa out on the way out will you

From my post earlier on this topic, the person who was offering the 8 £75 tickets was asked whether he was from a junior club from within Ospreylia and why was he trying to sell these tickets, later he came back to say that they had to have the same number of tickets for each Wales game and they had to pay up front, he also said many clubs within the Region were having the same difficulty in selling the tickets internally, much harder than in normal seasons, perhaps the Welsh Rugby public is waking up to the Dodgers antics.