Tigers confirm Ford to depart

First topic message reminder :

Now confirmed that he's leaving, probably to Bath (so much for the earlier denials)
Time will tell if he's made the right decision but as a young lad I feel his advisers have let him down.

If he want's more game time it will be interesting to see what Heathcote does if Bath is his destination. Doesn't make much sense.

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/George-Ford-leave-Leicester-Tigers-summer/story-17928917-detail/story.html

Farrell has started 1 game vs England as Ford has started 1 for the Saxons.

Ford has played against Tolouse, Glaws and Bath this season plus in two finals and two semi finals last season.

PSW,

Ford isn't measuring himself against Clegg, he should be thinking directly about Farrell who is only 18 months older than him and made his Six Nations debut this time last year. How close is Ford to a first team England debut this year? That's what he would need, to be on a similar trajectory. Wilkinson made his England debut at 18.

Should Ford have ambitions to be in the World Cup Squad in 2015? We only took two number 10s to New Zealand in 2011. Number four in the pecking order won't be good enough. There's no guarantee either that the likes of Lamb, Geraghty and Cipriani will just disappear from view.

Should he think instead it will be his turn in 2019? Farrell will still only be 28 and Burns 29. They won't be going anywhere and will have more international experience unless Ford can get ahead of them. The sooner he does that the better.

On top of that, England won't stop turning out fly half candidates just because we have a reasonable number of young hopefuls now. Ford might still be raw but you don't get to choose your own window of opportunity.

This is not about Ford v Farrell - just what is right for Ford. He has decided to move. Some feel he will improve more playing regularly, though this is not guaranteed wherever he goes - others of us feel that at his age a gradual (but still fairly rapid) development is better.

At Tigers he would have been guaranteed around a dozen starts this season and same again next at 10 - and probably have gotten more with Floods tendency to pick up injuries. Already he has won MotM in two semi finals, whilst playing well in the LV and AP finals last season.

Unless Bath can really push on he is swapping playing in front of full houses at Twickenham for life in the bottom half of the AP and the Amlin. Personally I feel that slightly fewer matches at a higher level are a damn sight better than a handful more, but all at a lower level.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Farrell has started 1 game vs England as Ford has started 1 for the Saxons.

Ford has played against Tolouse, Glaws and Bath this season plus in two finals and two semi finals last season.

Sorry I don't understand your first sentence.

Ok I apologise Ford had 12 minutes against Toulouse from the bench. Probably brought on because Leicester needed a kicker on the pitch because Flood was in the bin at the time. It's not a start though is it?

Not trusted against Quins and Sarries this season though is he?

Oh right now you're counting the Low Value Cup?

LondonTiger wrote:This is not about Ford v Farrell - just what is right for Ford. He has decided to move. Some feel he will improve more playing regularly, though this is not guaranteed wherever he goes - others of us feel that at his age a gradual (but still fairly rapid) development is better.

At Tigers he would have been guaranteed around a dozen starts this season and same again next at 10 - and probably have gotten more with Floods tendency to pick up injuries. Already he has won MotM in two semi finals, whilst playing well in the LV and AP finals last season.

Unless Bath can really push on he is swapping playing in front of full houses at Twickenham for life in the bottom half of the AP and the Amlin. Personally I feel that slightly fewer matches at a higher level are a damn sight better than a handful more, but all at a lower level.

I agree. I think Ford should have stayed at Tigers.

I wasn't going for Ford vs Farrell I was disagreeing with earlier statements about Ford not being developed in the same way as Burns and Farrell are. He is getting the game time and he was brought on to orchestrate the Tigers backs for the 15 mins vs Tolouse. Tigers needed his direction, Benny is perfectly capable of kicking for goal and touch if need be.

Rugby Fan wrote:PSW,

Ford isn't measuring himself against Clegg, he should be thinking directly about Farrell who is only 18 months older than him and made his Six Nations debut this time last year. How close is Ford to a first team England debut this year? That's what he would need, to be on a similar trajectory. Wilkinson made his England debut at 18.

Should Ford have ambitions to be in the World Cup Squad in 2015? We only took two number 10s to New Zealand in 2011. Number four in the pecking order won't be good enough. There's no guarantee either that the likes of Lamb, Geraghty and Cipriani will just disappear from view.

Should he think instead it will be his turn in 2019? Farrell will still only be 28 and Burns 29. They won't be going anywhere and will have more international experience unless Ford can get ahead of them. The sooner he does that the better.

On top of that, England won't stop turning out fly half candidates just because we have a reasonable number of young hopefuls now. Ford might still be raw but you don't get to choose your own window of opportunity.

This isnt a good window of opportunity though. England have two very well established fly halves (young and younguish) and a new kid whos going to be given a decent run. Farrell had a very good window of opportunity with Wilko finally retiring, Flood injured, and Hodgson only ever picked as a stop gap...not to mention his dad on the coaching staff.

Anyway the point is hwat does he have to gain there by playing at Bath?
Either way he will still have to be better than Flood (and or Burns or Farrell) to queue jump them. Is he more likely to do that at Bath which has been a fly halves graveyard over the past few seasons and who are unlikely to be putting him into the high profile games Tigers will...the ones that actually help to show the difference between a good premiership and international player.
The increased gamtime = development and England selection argument as we have pointed out with many example is a total canard. As is the notion that he spends every game benchwarming at Tigers. Hes played only one less many games as Flood has this season (the same if you take out friendlies, he did get the start against the Moari though) despite some poor form. Hes playing 80 minutes for the Saxons.

Aside from an increased chance of injury what will he really get at Bath he isnt getting at Tigers?
A bigger paycheck and more time with his dad.

He was brought on because Tigers needed a fly half because Flood was in the bin.

Ford is obviously not happy with the speed of progress. Perhaps he should be more patient he has time on his side. Maybe he's threatened by the emergence of Burns and Farrell Jr.

You might say Ford has had as much gametime at fly half this season but he's not been playing for England or starting the crunch HC games.

That's probably what he wants and craves. He's probably thinking if Farrell Jr can do that so can I.

He probably sees himself as behind his competition which he is in one sense but in terms of age he is not.

Given Cockers comments he has been swayed by his agent and father PSW. Cockerd has even said he'd do a deal to keep him if he changed his mind. Bath could well be a bad move as he'll behind an average pack providing slow ball with no idea of who the scrum half will be as Classens is of. He won't even know who the backline will be as Barf haven't settled on a 12 and Hipkiss is out of contract.

beshocked wrote:He was brought on because Tigers needed a fly half because Flood was in the bin.

Ford is obviously not happy with the speed of progress. Perhaps he should be more patient he has time on his side. Maybe he's threatened by the emergence of Burns and Farrell Jr.

You might say Ford has had as much gametime at fly half this season but he's not been playing for England or starting the crunch HC games.

That's probably what he wants and craves. He's probably thinking if Farrell Jr can do that so can I.

He probably sees himself as behind his competition which he is in one sense but in terms of age he is not.

Farrel Jnr did it as second choice at his club (behind the guy who got picked ahead of him for the 10 shirt by lancaster), and further down the line in his playing career.If he is looking at Farrel as an example then he should see staying at a top club as second choice as no problem, indeed beneficial.
Hes not played for England because he isnt good enough and is only 19, hes not suddenly going to get promoted just because hes playing behind a weaker pack for Bath.

It may be that he lacks faith in the Tigers coaching staff after their dismal failure to turn Toby Flood into a regular england player ( hang on...). It may be that hes getting paid more to move.

PSW,

I agree that Bath isn't necessarily going to offer a better path than Leicester, and I don't think the Tigers could really have treated Ford any differently.

However, you are missing a trick when you say this isn't about Ford vs Farrell. Of course, from an England perspective, you are exactly right but that's surely not how George Ford will be seeing things.

Above, you say Farrell is "young" and "established", while Ford is "a new kid". If I was Ford, the gulf evident in those different descriptions would wind me up.

Although Ford is often described as "two years younger" than Farrell, the difference is actually 18 months. He was only a year behind Farrell in school. Less than two years ago, they were playing alongside each other for the England U20 team at the Junior World Championship. Ford was selected at flyhalf, not Farrell, and it was Ford who went on to win the IRB Junior Player award that year.

Back in October 2008, Farrell made his professional debut and became the youngest English player to so. In November 2009, Ford made his professional debut and he became the youngest to do so.

Ford has been used to doing things early in his rugby career, winning greater plaudits than Farrell, and being around 12 months behind the Saracens man in career development.

Twelve months ago, Farrell stepped out to make his Six Nations debut and promptly went on a stellar trajectory which might even end this season with a Lions tour.

Ford isn't making any Six Nations debut this weekend, he was on the pitch instead for the Saxons. It's interesting that, in the other forum thread about who would come into the squad if Flood or Farrell got injured, a number of posters think Ford should not automatically be promoted.

And yet Ford is at the same stage of his career as Farrell was last year. Except, of course, he's not. Injuries at his club meant that Farrell ended up playing a leading role in Europe and the League. Ford has been given the best possible opportunities at Leicester but they don't match up to accelerated learning curve his rival found himself on.

It's certainly possible that Farrell will turn out to be better suited than Ford to top level rugby. There are plenty of players who don't deliver on early promise and others who bloom later.

Farrell can now happily co-exist alongside Hodgson. He doesn't need to be always playing 10 for Saracens to showcase his talents because he is already proven himself there as an international. He can also get game time with Saracens at centre, while Ford can't cover that position for Leicester.

You can argue that slower development is surely in Ford's best interests but why should he think that when he has seen Farrell come on in leaps and bounds when offered the opportunity?

Indeed, if Flood and and Farrell stay uninjured, what are Ford's immediate prospects? Flood is in pole position to get Leicester's Heineken Cup games and key Premiership clashes. Ford will surely contrast his position at the club with the role Farrell played for Saracens last year.

If Ford plays well, the best he can hope for this season is a place on the tour to Argentina. Even if Flood and Farrell both somehow win Lions selection, Burns is still currently ahead of him to be a Test pick. If either of the EPS flyhalves doesn't go to Australia, then Ford will only be third choice flyhalf on tour. If both don't go...

You can see why it must be tempting for Ford to want to start the 2013-14 season at a club where he can get more major game time and, more importantly, take the credit if his club does well. Tigers could win the Premiership and Heineken Cup this year but it's unlikely Ford would be in line for plaudits.

As I said, theone thing thats stopping him from being picked ahead of those players is that he isnt as good as them.
Farrel go his beak because of injuries and a lack of other options available, plus hs dad being cach helped of course as did the option to try him out in thecenter (something Ford doesnt give). Farrel was extreml lucky to ge is rak hen he did, and got it bcae he was the best option available at the time,not becaus hd moved to Bath for a bigger paycheck.
Ford arguably is ahead in the England pecking order of several players who are better than him, andwho are getng more first team premiership/hc starts than him. He really cant have any complaints about where he is there and the opportunities hes getting, nor can he be dellusional enough to beleive the only reason Farrel is starting for England ahead of him is that he only got to play 15 minutes against Toulose.

For where he is in his carreer, and for the quality of player he is, he is doing well on the england development front.

As you say his best hope is to become a reserve on the Argentina tour this summer. Thats pretty good going really? How is moving to Bath going to change that? Why dont england pick him as first choice for the 6 nations now?
Because he isnt good enough to merit it, same reason hes picked behind Flood at club level. Playing at a different club alone wont change that. Lancasters not going to lok at Bath and say hang on Fords getting picked ahead of Burns, Farrel and Flood for Bath..Id better stick in him for the AIs is he?
Is he good enough or ready to play for England? No. Theres no reason for him to be selected yet.

I dont think the england selectors will be to heavily driven by who the papers andinternerds hype up as responsible for wining games either. They look at the players and what they do, especially in training with them. It helps a lot of course f hose players play in big games on big stages and prove they can handle that Fords more likley to get those opportunities at Leicester than he s at Bath who are a struggling side.

He will however be getting paid more on his contract with Bath.

Rugby Fan true.

Farrell Jr also has size on his side. As still a relative youngster he's pretty big - 6,2 and over 15st for a 10 makes it a bit more difficult for opposition to target him physically. Makes the transition to internationals a bit easier.

Guys like Flood and Sexton are over 6 ft and over 14st.

In my opinion it's a bit more difficult for smaller fly halves. E.g. Charlie Hodgson seems to have had problems facing big players targetting him.

Has Ford yet found his optimum weight/bulk?

I know it's already been mentioned that Ford is good enough at tackling at club level but I don't think he's been sufficiently tested yet to be honest.

At Bath he's bound to have to take more of the tackling load.This could make or break him.

Going to Bath IMO is a risky move but the payoff if it works is potentially huge because he'll be out of Flood's shadow.

Twelvetrees is well and truly out of Allen's shadow. I know Allen is not as tough competition as Flood is to Ford but still.....

Bit of insight from Ford himself although I still don't think it makes sense.

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Leaving-Leicester-Tigers-toughest-decision-admits/story-18003309-detail/story.html

I've seen those quotes, he talks about needing 80 minutes over sub appearences but he has made two or three appearences off the bench and then nine starts plus the Maori game start. He's talking gibberish.

Why doesn't he just say I've had a chat with my dad. They need a 10 as Donald is off I've been told it'll be mt shirt to lose and I'll be receiving a contract that reflects my first team status it was too good to turn down.

Sounds like an agent is putting words into his mouth.

Pity George couldn't have followed this pattern taken from the DT in an article about Dan Cole:

""He knew that getting better than them, without leaving, would be best way to achieve his target. He toughed it out with guys that were better than him, he saw the bigger picture early.”
Part of this vision was realising that he not only had to do the basics better than anyone else, he also had to offer something more in other parts of the field.
“Cole was told he had to improve his carrying. He watched and learned from Castro,” says Cockerill."

Cole certainly deserves praise, but then again due to the abrasive nature of the front row, being on the bench pretty much guarantees you 30 minutes game time every match. The same can't be said for FH, especially under the conservative Cockerill. At lot is said about him not having the right mental attitude to fight for his place, but maybe he just feels it is not the right environment to bring the best out of him?

Tigers have been in an enviable position where very few players leave that they actually want to keep. You've all been spoilt, so welcome to the real world!

Ford would have to fight for his place at Bath anyway, Heathcote isn't going anywhere and he played better than Ford last night.

Things are starting to move in the right direction down at the Rec and I can see exactly why Ford would want to be a part of it. I've read plenty about the nepotism angle but ask yourselves this, who has been the biggest coaching influence on young George since he started playing the game as a child?

Why would he not want to link back up with him? Other players follow the coaches they feel bring the best out of them and nobody bats an eyelid.

To suggest that George just wants to be with his daddy because he's insecure is not only disingenuous but also highly disrespectful to the both of them.

Gary Gold does not strike me as the kind of man who would allow favouritism at the club regardless of the individuals concerned.

Ford was poor last night...as i said elsewhere his decision making was appalling...